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walklightwhat
Australia752 Posts
On May 08 2011 19:05 Battousai13 wrote: Please have IdrA on the show against this Tuesday. I'm so eager to hear what he has to say in light of what has been developing on TL forums. Or don't, so we can have an interesting show that's worth tuning in for... rather than another let's get 20k viewer troll-a-thon. | ||
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Aurdon
United States2007 Posts
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sandyph
Indonesia1640 Posts
On May 08 2011 16:41 freetgy wrote: and how is this a sign of imbalance towards zerg? a protoss would have had exactly the same problem. a terran too, if he doesn't scan or gets a reaper You can criticise the lack of scouting options in general, fine. terran and protoss can make attacking unit AND harvester at the same time, zerg need to choose whether to make attacking unit (which if the 6 rax doesnt come then he will be bhind in economy) or drone (which he will die) | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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chickenhawk
Portugal339 Posts
terran and protoss can make attacking unit AND harvester at the same time, zerg need to choose whether to make attacking unit (which if the 6 rax doesnt come then he will be bhind in economy) or drone (which he will die) Thats a lie... You can make both at the some time. Like protos and terran. And a Protos does have the some problem of scouting.. thats why they get obs asap... | ||
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venage
Sweden65 Posts
On May 08 2011 19:23 chickenhawk wrote: Thats a lie... You can make both at the some time. Like protos and terran. And a Protos does have the some problem of scouting.. thats why they get obs asap... an hallucinated phoenix would like to talk to you about important stuff! | ||
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Chillax
England585 Posts
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Nineball
Norway163 Posts
Idra brings just another perspective to the show, wich I like, this goes for all of them. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On May 08 2011 19:13 walklightwhat wrote: Or don't, so we can have an interesting show that's worth tuning in for... rather than another let's get 20k viewer troll-a-thon. how about they just dont have incontrol on. then we can have a show exciting enough for 20k people to be interested in without anyone trying to troll?  | ||
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walklightwhat
Australia752 Posts
On May 08 2011 19:50 turdburgler wrote: how about they just dont have incontrol on. then we can have a show exciting enough for 20k people to be interested in without anyone trying to troll? We'll just have to change hosts, I guess. SotG: Chillin' and Chattin' with Liquid`Tyler. | ||
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KamehameHoe
29 Posts
On May 08 2011 19:19 sandyph wrote: terran and protoss can make attacking unit AND harvester at the same time, zerg need to choose whether to make attacking unit (which if the 6 rax doesnt come then he will be bhind in economy) or drone (which he will die) zergs can make attacking and harvesters at the same time 2, nobody says u can use all ur larvae only on one thing. If a terran goes CC first against protoss, and only builds 5 marines first 8 minutes of the game, he will lose against every onebase or even expand push the toss throws at him. A Protoss who goes FE and doesnt build enough units will also die against every early game aggression. And you cant really scout that with those races too if the opponent places his buildings smartly. To take up your example. If the zerg scouts one rax no gas, he will have to take defensive measures to deal with possible early game pressure. if he assumes a terran fe and builds only drones he himself cheeses economically. Its just greedy. | ||
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Pyo
United States738 Posts
On May 08 2011 16:56 GoKu` wrote: Protoss has Hallucination & Observers. I personally think that if Zerg was given the same scouting tactics as Protoss and Terran it would break the game because of their larva mechanic and the abillity to just hardcounter early game and either go kill them or macro up freely and then later win. Actually, Zerg can get overlord speed at approximately the same time and for roughly the same cost as protoss can get hallucination or observers. Them choosing not to (because it isn't safe to or because they don't feel it is necessary) is meta-game and not racial imbalance. Zerg: 250/0 + 65 seconds to get pool 150/100 + 80 seconds to get lair 100/100 + 60 seconds to get overlord speed 100/0 for the overlord (build time is simultaneous) 700/200 + 205 seconds total Hallucination: 100/0 + 25 seconds to get pylon 150/0 + 65 seconds to get gateway 150/0 + 50 seconds to get cyber core 100/100 + 80 seconds to get hallucination (40 seconds if chrono) 50/100 + 42 seconds (build time) + >50 seconds (to get enough energy) 550/200 + 211 seconds if you chrono both the sentry and the research Note that this option sacrifices warpgate research! Observer: 100/0 + 25 seconds to get pylon 150/0 + 65 seconds to get gateway 150/0 + 50 seconds to get cyber core 200/100 + 65 seconds to get robo 25/75 + 40 seconds to get observer (20 seconds if chrono) 625/175 + 225 seconds total if you chrono the observer | ||
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Horse...falcon
United States1851 Posts
Also we know there WAS a preshow last week JP -_-. Release it! | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On May 08 2011 20:16 Pyo wrote: Actually, Zerg can get overlord speed at approximately the same time and for roughly the same cost as protoss can get hallucination or observers. Them choosing not to (because it isn't safe to or because they don't feel it is necessary) is meta-game and not racial imbalance. Zerg: 250/0 + 65 seconds to get pool 150/100 + 80 seconds to get lair 100/100 + 60 seconds to get overlord speed 100/0 for the overlord (build time is simultaneous) 700/200 + 205 seconds total Hallucination: 100/0 + 25 seconds to get pylon 150/0 + 65 seconds to get gateway 150/0 + 50 seconds to get cyber core 100/100 + 80 seconds to get hallucination (40 seconds if chrono) 50/100 + 42 seconds (build time) + >50 seconds (to get enough energy) 550/200 + 211 seconds if you chrono both the sentry and the research Note that this option sacrifices warpgate research! Observer: 100/0 + 25 seconds to get pylon 150/0 + 65 seconds to get gateway 150/0 + 50 seconds to get cyber core 200/100 + 65 seconds to get robo 25/75 + 40 seconds to get observer (20 seconds if chrono) 625/175 + 225 seconds total but if you are getting mc 4 gated, and you have a lair and overlord speed done, your gonna die. meta game and racial balance cant be seperated so easily. with other races being stronger defensively via passive traits, idra is arguing that zerg needs to know whats coming to survive, without investing in possibly wasted tech. | ||
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sandyph
Indonesia1640 Posts
On May 08 2011 19:23 chickenhawk wrote: Thats a lie... You can make both at the some time. Like protos and terran. And a Protos does have the some problem of scouting.. thats why they get obs asap... no, you have to choose because larva is not unlimited. Larva is produced at rate 15 seconds per larva, in 60 seconds game time zerg will have 4 larva -> 4 drone OR 8 zergling, or combination of it 1 drone 6 ling, 2 drone 4 ling, 3 drone 2 ling in 60 seconds terran will have 2 marine AND almost 4 scv (4th will out in 8 seconds) in 60 seconds protoss will have almost 2 zealot (2nd in 16 seconds) AND almost 4 probe (4th in 8 seconds) | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On May 08 2011 20:35 sandyph wrote: no, you have to choose because larva is not unlimited. Larva is produced at rate 15 seconds per larva, in 60 seconds game time zerg will have 4 larva -> 4 drone OR 8 zergling, or combination of it 1 drone 6 ling, 2 drone 4 ling, 3 drone 2 ling You just forgot about queens amirite? Cause they don't change the larva production rate immensely, right? | ||
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sandyph
Indonesia1640 Posts
On May 08 2011 20:50 karpo wrote: You just forgot about queens amirite? Cause they don't change the larva production rate immensely, right? then protoss can chronos their zealots AND probes and terran can drop mules, still zerg will be have less unit in 60 seconds game time | ||
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Tarot
Canada440 Posts
On May 08 2011 17:12 freetgy wrote: Zerg already has that, Spinecrawler are already a very good defense, especially with Transfuses. i mean if i see a Zerg going Hatch First but building some spinecrawlers he is sacrificing alittle bit of economy for safety and that is imho perfectly fine. As the opposing player i won't attack you, if there are some spinecrawlers a) because of the risk involved b) the economic game is more even So we can play a macrogame and more or less even terms let take a 6 rax all-in, does a spaniswa opening hold such a thing? i would guess so. If that the case would that opening be a problem then at all? while i don't think it is a strategy for every game, there are less economic centric but safer openings. i mean as long as a Terran oder Protoss doesn't go Nexus/CC first how is a Zerg going to be behind in the economic race, when they do a safer opening? From the zerg`s point of view, 6 rax with 4 rax hidden and a 2 rax expand looks pretty much the same until all the marines come out or the CC goes to the natural. It's a coinflip | ||
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Drgggg
17 Posts
On May 08 2011 20:35 sandyph wrote: no, you have to choose because larva is not unlimited. Larva is produced at rate 15 seconds per larva, in 60 seconds game time zerg will have 4 larva -> 4 drone OR 8 zergling, or combination of it 1 drone 6 ling, 2 drone 4 ling, 3 drone 2 ling in 60 seconds terran will have 2 marine AND almost 4 scv (4th will out in 8 seconds) in 60 seconds protoss will have almost 2 zealot (2nd in 16 seconds) AND almost 4 probe (4th in 8 seconds) Zerg can have 4 drones or 8 lings and 1 queen. The queen would do fairly well against 2 marines or 1 zealot. You are also comparing a 200 mineral expanse to a 300 mineral expense (400 in the case of the protoss production). Such factors as cost can not be trivialized that much in the early game. From the zerg`s point of view, 6 rax with 4 rax hidden and a 2 rax expand looks pretty much the same until all the marines come out or the CC goes to the natural. It's a coinflip. From a toss point of view it is the exact same. We are also flipping a coin. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On May 08 2011 19:05 Battousai13 wrote: Please have IdrA on the show against this Tuesday. I'm so eager to hear what he has to say in light of what has been developing on TL forums. Discussing TL threads was such a hit last time, right? | ||
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