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no, you have to choose because larva is not unlimited. Larva is produced at rate 15 seconds per larva, in 60 seconds game time zerg will have 4 larva -> 4 drone OR 8 zergling, or combination of it 1 drone 6 ling, 2 drone 4 ling, 3 drone 2 ling
in 60 seconds terran will have 2 marine AND almost 4 scv (4th will out in 8 seconds)
in 60 seconds protoss will have almost 2 zealot (2nd in 16 seconds) AND almost 4 probe (4th in 8 seconds)
Money is also not unlimited.
2 zealots and 4 probes is 400 minerals.
2 marines and 4 scv is 300 minerals.
4 drones or 8 zerglings is 200 minerals.
You also forgot that zerg players got queens, that gives more 4 larva. So you can actually have around 4 drones and 8 zerglings in 60 seconds which is 400 minerals, like the protoss.
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On May 08 2011 01:01 zeru wrote:You're still not proving anything, all you are doing is stating your viewpoint, which is biased, my viewpoint is biased too, no real data to back anything up = unreliable. Having to "worry about more shit" is purely your opinion and you don't even try to state what the other races have to worry about, because it wouldn't support your claim. Saying, "look zerg has this and this to worry about, other races dont!!!" while ignoring what other races have to worry about is 100% pointless and silly. You're in your mind simplifying other races/matchups in an attempt to validate your point. Argument from Ignorance
People need to stop insulting eachother in every post they make when "discussing". This is getting sad.
All races have to fear some amount of all ins/cheeses. BUT; Protoss has better static/army defence than zerg, they can produce an army whilst making probes. As can terran, heck they can even bring their workers and still outmacro due mules.
Zerg can not. This is not questionable and if you're not stupid it does not need a fucking graph to be shown since it's in plain sight of anybody who playes the game.
Terran needs to build 1-2 bunkers at ramp and salvage (or just scan) to be safe. Protoss just needs to build stuff and try to scout if there's anything fishy (low marines = banshe/helions? Etc) and build units. Zerg has to balance units with building drones. Aswell as having the worst cost effective army in the game which is generally considered true.
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i dont aggree with idras pov. he is just way to biased.
terrans cant really scout a protoss early game as well, and they dont have a built that is safe against every cheese that can be thrown at them.
a protoss on the other hand cant scout a terran early game as well, but they actually have it easier to hold off anything that can come.
i dont think zergs scouting is so much worse than the other races.
idra is just way too greedy. in his opinion building an additional queen you are already behind if the terran decides to expand.
but in my opinion what idra means by saying you are already behind is you are not ahead.
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On May 08 2011 22:04 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 01:01 zeru wrote:You're still not proving anything, all you are doing is stating your viewpoint, which is biased, my viewpoint is biased too, no real data to back anything up = unreliable. Having to "worry about more shit" is purely your opinion and you don't even try to state what the other races have to worry about, because it wouldn't support your claim. Saying, "look zerg has this and this to worry about, other races dont!!!" while ignoring what other races have to worry about is 100% pointless and silly. You're in your mind simplifying other races/matchups in an attempt to validate your point. Argument from Ignorance People need to stop insulting eachother in every post they make when "discussing". This is getting sad. All races have to fear some amount of all ins/cheeses. BUT; Protoss has better static/army defence than zerg, they can produce an army whilst making probes. As can terran, heck they can even bring their workers and still outmacro due mules. Zerg can not. This is not questionable and if you're not stupid it does not need a fucking graph to be shown since it's in plain sight of anybody who playes the game. Terran needs to build 1-2 bunkers at ramp and salvage (or just scan) to be safe. Protoss just needs to build stuff and try to scout if there's anything fishy (low marines = banshe/helions? Etc) and build units. Zerg has to balance units with building drones. Aswell as having the worst cost effective army in the game which is generally considered true.
The original post quoted was 100% biased and provided NO base for arguments, just balance whine/venting. Telling it like it is isn't insulting when one side really provides a stupid argument, if you can even call it that.
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On May 08 2011 22:18 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 22:04 Krehlmar wrote:On May 08 2011 01:01 zeru wrote:You're still not proving anything, all you are doing is stating your viewpoint, which is biased, my viewpoint is biased too, no real data to back anything up = unreliable. Having to "worry about more shit" is purely your opinion and you don't even try to state what the other races have to worry about, because it wouldn't support your claim. Saying, "look zerg has this and this to worry about, other races dont!!!" while ignoring what other races have to worry about is 100% pointless and silly. You're in your mind simplifying other races/matchups in an attempt to validate your point. Argument from Ignorance People need to stop insulting eachother in every post they make when "discussing". This is getting sad. All races have to fear some amount of all ins/cheeses. BUT; Protoss has better static/army defence than zerg, they can produce an army whilst making probes. As can terran, heck they can even bring their workers and still outmacro due mules. Zerg can not. This is not questionable and if you're not stupid it does not need a fucking graph to be shown since it's in plain sight of anybody who playes the game. Terran needs to build 1-2 bunkers at ramp and salvage (or just scan) to be safe. Protoss just needs to build stuff and try to scout if there's anything fishy (low marines = banshe/helions? Etc) and build units. Zerg has to balance units with building drones. Aswell as having the worst cost effective army in the game which is generally considered true. The original post quoted was 100% biased and provided NO base for arguments, just balance whine/venting. Telling it like it is isn't insulting when one side really provides a stupid argument, if you can even call it that.
No, every post I have had refers to these simple facts I have posted. There is nothing to it other than that, I'm not calling imbalance I'm calling faulty design choice.
One of the godamn points that prove me right is the small maps whom have now been removed from the mappool. I called that design choice aswell and guess who was wrong then.
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On May 08 2011 19:19 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 16:41 freetgy wrote:On May 08 2011 10:24 DoomsVille wrote:
For those of you that want to know what IdrA is talking about. Make sure you catch the VOD of stalife vs. Ret Game 2 in the NASL from tonight.
I'm going to spoil it to explain my point so if you don't want to know who won stop reading here.
Basically Stalife went all-in with 6 raxes. All his drone scout saw was 1 rax and no gas. Ret literally had no idea the 6 rax was coming. There would have been no way for him to scout it. Stalife had his raxes far from the edges of the base so overlords would have had 0 chance of scouting the raxes.
So Ret basically had to guess what Stalife was doing. He wrongfully guessed stalife was going 1 rax FE (like he did in the previous game). Result? Stalife pushes out with marines and ret has 0 chance to defend as he was droning up. Game ends. And the thing is it doesn't matter who Ret was facing. If someone if much less skill did the same thing to him he would have lost. Skill plays no factor into who won that game. The only determining factor is whether Ret guesses right or not.
That's stupid and bad for esports. And it was a terrible game. and how is this a sign of imbalance towards zerg? a protoss would have had exactly the same problem. a terran too, if he doesn't scan or gets a reaper You can criticise the lack of scouting options in general, fine. terran and protoss can make attacking unit AND harvester at the same time, zerg need to choose whether to make attacking unit (which if the 6 rax doesnt come then he will be bhind in economy) or drone (which he will die)
or you can make some of both, seriously i dont get the zerg obsession of have either/or.
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On May 08 2011 22:34 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 19:19 sandyph wrote:On May 08 2011 16:41 freetgy wrote:On May 08 2011 10:24 DoomsVille wrote:
For those of you that want to know what IdrA is talking about. Make sure you catch the VOD of stalife vs. Ret Game 2 in the NASL from tonight.
I'm going to spoil it to explain my point so if you don't want to know who won stop reading here.
Basically Stalife went all-in with 6 raxes. All his drone scout saw was 1 rax and no gas. Ret literally had no idea the 6 rax was coming. There would have been no way for him to scout it. Stalife had his raxes far from the edges of the base so overlords would have had 0 chance of scouting the raxes.
So Ret basically had to guess what Stalife was doing. He wrongfully guessed stalife was going 1 rax FE (like he did in the previous game). Result? Stalife pushes out with marines and ret has 0 chance to defend as he was droning up. Game ends. And the thing is it doesn't matter who Ret was facing. If someone if much less skill did the same thing to him he would have lost. Skill plays no factor into who won that game. The only determining factor is whether Ret guesses right or not.
That's stupid and bad for esports. And it was a terrible game. and how is this a sign of imbalance towards zerg? a protoss would have had exactly the same problem. a terran too, if he doesn't scan or gets a reaper You can criticise the lack of scouting options in general, fine. terran and protoss can make attacking unit AND harvester at the same time, zerg need to choose whether to make attacking unit (which if the 6 rax doesnt come then he will be bhind in economy) or drone (which he will die) or you can make some of both, seriously i dont get the zerg obsession of have either/or.
Because chronoboosted drones/mules outmacro any zerg on the planet unless they build alot of drones.
Pretty simple no?
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On May 08 2011 16:58 GwSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 16:56 GoKu` wrote:
Protoss has Hallucination & Observers. I personally think that if Zerg was given the same scouting tactics as Protoss and Terran it would break the game because of their larva mechanic and the abillity to just hardcounter early game and either go kill them or macro up freely and then later win. I can certainly understand that argument too. Maybe Zerg just need better defensive options, period. That, or much bigger maps/no close position for more time to react.
As someone already did the math before, rushing for overlord speed and hallucination/observer takes roughly the same. It's not the fault of the race that most zergs at this point in time go for gasless builds. Why? Because playing greedy like that seems to work. And as long as it seems to work zergs will keep playing greedy.
Zergs have the tools to get 100% super scouting just like protoss or terran if you pay the cost.
So why don't protoss play gasless greedy builds? Because protoss will die to rushes and cheeses because there is no way to scout a zerg beyond the first probe without hallucinate or observer. It doesn't matter that the zerg can't wall in when they have lings at every xel'naga and lings patrolling everywhere else.
Face it, zergs have exactly the same problem with scouting as anyone else.
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Because chronoboosted drones/mules outmacro any zerg on the planet unless they build alot of drones.
Pretty simple no?
It's not that simple at all. Things such as base saturation, larva inject, defensive measures necessary, and figuring out exactly what economic point one race is on the same foot as another would all have to be extensively examined.
Saying that you need to make drones because you will fall behind means nothing in the grand scale of it all. You need to specifically point out where those 50 minerals you spent on a ling make a difference or else it is simply a feeling of falling behind.
All the races give up macro potential in order to create a layer of safety. The natural argument argument for zergs is that toss/terran have a passive level of safety because they must (it is not a choice it is obligatory) have constant unit production. If this is the route you want to take in the discussion then fine prove explicitly that a zerg is more behind when playing perfectly and defensively than a protoss is against a 6 rax all-in or a fast expand for instance.
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On May 08 2011 22:47 kardinal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 16:58 GwSC wrote:On May 08 2011 16:56 GoKu` wrote:
Protoss has Hallucination & Observers. I personally think that if Zerg was given the same scouting tactics as Protoss and Terran it would break the game because of their larva mechanic and the abillity to just hardcounter early game and either go kill them or macro up freely and then later win. I can certainly understand that argument too. Maybe Zerg just need better defensive options, period. That, or much bigger maps/no close position for more time to react. So why don't protoss play gasless greedy builds?
Forge expand?
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On May 08 2011 22:34 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 19:19 sandyph wrote:On May 08 2011 16:41 freetgy wrote:On May 08 2011 10:24 DoomsVille wrote:
For those of you that want to know what IdrA is talking about. Make sure you catch the VOD of stalife vs. Ret Game 2 in the NASL from tonight.
I'm going to spoil it to explain my point so if you don't want to know who won stop reading here.
Basically Stalife went all-in with 6 raxes. All his drone scout saw was 1 rax and no gas. Ret literally had no idea the 6 rax was coming. There would have been no way for him to scout it. Stalife had his raxes far from the edges of the base so overlords would have had 0 chance of scouting the raxes.
So Ret basically had to guess what Stalife was doing. He wrongfully guessed stalife was going 1 rax FE (like he did in the previous game). Result? Stalife pushes out with marines and ret has 0 chance to defend as he was droning up. Game ends. And the thing is it doesn't matter who Ret was facing. If someone if much less skill did the same thing to him he would have lost. Skill plays no factor into who won that game. The only determining factor is whether Ret guesses right or not.
That's stupid and bad for esports. And it was a terrible game. and how is this a sign of imbalance towards zerg? a protoss would have had exactly the same problem. a terran too, if he doesn't scan or gets a reaper You can criticise the lack of scouting options in general, fine. terran and protoss can make attacking unit AND harvester at the same time, zerg need to choose whether to make attacking unit (which if the 6 rax doesnt come then he will be bhind in economy) or drone (which he will die) or you can make some of both, seriously i dont get the zerg obsession of have either/or.
because a tweener build does not defend against anything nor will such a play give you any macro worthwhile. So it is not going to win you games.
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On May 08 2011 22:58 Drgggg wrote:Show nested quote +Because chronoboosted drones/mules outmacro any zerg on the planet unless they build alot of drones.
Pretty simple no? Saying that you need to make drones because you will fall behind means nothing in the grand scale of it all. You need to specifically point out where those 50 minerals you spent on a ling make a difference or else it is simply a feeling of falling behind.
That's just wrong and you know that. Early game zerg is the most labile of all races unless you scout more than any other race. Terran can build bunkers, protoss sentries, zerg dies.
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That's just wrong and you know that. Early game zerg is the most labile of all races unless you scout more than any other race. Terran can build bunkers, protoss sentries, zerg dies
If you want to sacrafice econ for saftey you can do that with queens. If you notice Idra never argue'd that zergs couldn't play safe he argued that they would be too far behind because of the mineral investment. I am not convinced that zerg is any further behind when constructing extra queens then toss is when constructing extra sentries for instance.
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On May 08 2011 23:12 Drgggg wrote:Show nested quote +That's just wrong and you know that. Early game zerg is the most labile of all races unless you scout more than any other race. Terran can build bunkers, protoss sentries, zerg dies If you want to sacrafice econ for saftey you can do that with queens. If you notice Idra never argue'd that zergs couldn't play safe he argued that they would be too far behind because of the mineral investment. I am not convinced that zerg is any further behind when constructing extra queens then toss is when constructing extra sentries for instance.
Comparing sentires to queens isn't very good. Queens are good defensive units but they have no early-mid game potential in offensive pressure because of their terribly slow movement speed off creep.. Sentries on the other hand are incredibly potent for early-mid game pressure allowing them the ability to have both defensive and offensive viability.
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On May 08 2011 23:21 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 23:12 Drgggg wrote:That's just wrong and you know that. Early game zerg is the most labile of all races unless you scout more than any other race. Terran can build bunkers, protoss sentries, zerg dies If you want to sacrafice econ for saftey you can do that with queens. If you notice Idra never argue'd that zergs couldn't play safe he argued that they would be too far behind because of the mineral investment. I am not convinced that zerg is any further behind when constructing extra queens then toss is when constructing extra sentries for instance. Comparing sentires to queens isn't very good. Queens are good defensive units but they have no early-mid game potential in offensive pressure because of their terribly slow movement speed off creep.. Sentries on the other hand are incredibly potent for early-mid game pressure allowing them the ability to have both defensive and offensive viability.
Sure the parallel isn't perfect; however, I was just giving a general answer to a general complaint. Perhaps if zergs listed a specific grievance with more then I must drone or else I am behind than we can explore that.
Frankly though most zergs complain that they can not be safe while trying to aim for a macro game. The queen is an example of a solution that lets them play "safely" while not sacrificing drone count. It may be true that it is inadequate because it is not efficient or it sacrifices too many minerals, but again without specifics all we can do is say that the zerg feels behind against a hypothetical terran who is both 6 raxing and fast expoing at once (at least in the zerg's mind).
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If you want to sacrafice econ for saftey you can do that with queens. If you notice Idra never argue'd that zergs couldn't play safe he argued that they would be too far behind because of the mineral investment. I am not convinced that zerg is any further behind when constructing extra queens then toss is when constructing extra sentries for instance.
The Spanishiwa build does a damn good job of keeping you on decent econ footing while being very safe, because it lets you conserve a huge amount of your larvae for drones until the midgame, and the crazy amount of creep it gives you makes speed upgrades unnecessary for early defense.
I mean, I'm not saying Spanishiwa is the be-all, end-all, but he's an excellent example of how thinking outside the ox can open up new solutions to these kinds of problems.
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On May 08 2011 23:12 Drgggg wrote:Show nested quote +That's just wrong and you know that. Early game zerg is the most labile of all races unless you scout more than any other race. Terran can build bunkers, protoss sentries, zerg dies If you want to sacrafice econ for saftey you can do that with queens. If you notice Idra never argue'd that zergs couldn't play safe he argued that they would be too far behind because of the mineral investment. I am not convinced that zerg is any further behind when constructing extra queens then toss is when constructing extra sentries for instance.
No, he says you're behind because units Zerg makes for defense can't be used for pressure.
If a Terran Builds marines, he can pressure and defend (bunkers)
If a Protoss builds zealots/sentries he can defend (FF) and pressure (FF)
If a zerg builds lings/spines/queens he can defend, but not pressure (wall-in).
That, at least to me, seems like a design flaw.
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No, he says you're behind because units Zerg makes for defense can't be used for pressure.
If a Terran Builds marines, he can pressure and defend (bunkers)
If a Protoss builds zealots/sentries he can defend (FF) and pressure (FF)
If a zerg builds lings/spines/queens he can defend, but not pressure (wall-in).
That, at least to me, seems like a design flaw.
Lings can't pressure? Thats news to me. Wall-ins can protect your main, but "pressure" doesn't have to mean "directly throwing away units into attacking their main" the way it does for Terran. Against Toss especially, constant ling pokes are *super* annoying, because you have to constantly forcefield--miss one and you take huge econ damage, but even if you don't, your sentries can never build up energy. Lings can disrupt expansion timings, force Toss to build more unit than they'd otherwise like to, make sure you know exactly when Toss takes his expansion, give you map control throughout the early game...and all without ever having to engage. Just keep poking.
I think a lot of players, not just Zerg but Toss as well, have this misguided idea that "pressure" has to mean doing direct econ damage, usually by throwing away attack units in an effort to get at their mineral line.
But that only really works for Terran, whose units are super cost-efficient, and who have stellar options for early harassment.. Zergs don't have great units for it, and Toss units are so expensive that throwing away units too early can leave you wide open for a counterattack, which is why there aren't many Toss builds that both do good damage early and set you up for a macro game--usually its either one or the other, some kind of early all-in, or an FE build.
But that doesn't mean Zerg can't pressure. Forcing constant forcefields, delaying expansion timing, giving you map control and helping you get a better idea of what Toss is doing are all very legit, very useful applications for early Zerglings...and they don't require that you ever engage or take a loss.
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On May 09 2011 01:56 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +No, he says you're behind because units Zerg makes for defense can't be used for pressure.
If a Terran Builds marines, he can pressure and defend (bunkers)
If a Protoss builds zealots/sentries he can defend (FF) and pressure (FF)
If a zerg builds lings/spines/queens he can defend, but not pressure (wall-in).
That, at least to me, seems like a design flaw. Lings can't pressure? Thats news to me. Wall-ins can protect your main, but "pressure" doesn't have to mean "directly throwing away units into attacking their main" the way it does for Terran. Against Toss especially, constant ling pokes are *super* annoying, because you have to constantly forcefield--miss one and you take huge econ damage, but even if you don't, your sentries can never build up energy. Lings can disrupt expansion timings, force Toss to build more unit than they'd otherwise like to, make sure you know exactly when Toss takes his expansion, give you map control throughout the early game...and all without ever having to engage. Just keep poking. I think a lot of players, not just Zerg but Toss as well, have this misguided idea that "pressure" has to mean doing direct econ damage, usually by throwing away attack units in an effort to get at their mineral line. But that only really works for Terran, whose units are super cost-efficient, and who have stellar options for early harassment.. Zergs don't have great units for it, and Toss units are so expensive that throwing away units too early can leave you wide open for a counterattack, which is why there aren't many Toss builds that both do good damage early and set you up for a macro game--usually its either one or the other, some kind of early all-in, or an FE build. But that doesn't mean Zerg can't pressure. Forcing constant forcefields, delaying expansion timing, giving you map control and helping you get a better idea of what Toss is doing are all very legit, very useful applications for early Zerglings...and they don't require that you ever engage or take a loss.
That's true, but if a protoss sees that many zerglings he can just get enough army to deal with them and kill them. Thing is, while the expansion is delayed, zerg has invested tons of money and larvae into those lings (in order to get enough. You need a lot, lings aren't good against gateway units unless you have a lot of them) whereas Protoss can keep on building up his econ and tech behind his wall, and then when his expansion finishes he can have instant 2 base saturation whereas zerg will have fewer drones and either a very late third or a very late lair.
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On May 09 2011 00:42 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +If you want to sacrafice econ for saftey you can do that with queens. If you notice Idra never argue'd that zergs couldn't play safe he argued that they would be too far behind because of the mineral investment. I am not convinced that zerg is any further behind when constructing extra queens then toss is when constructing extra sentries for instance. The Spanishiwa build does a damn good job of keeping you on decent econ footing while being very safe, because it lets you conserve a huge amount of your larvae for drones until the midgame, and the crazy amount of creep it gives you makes speed upgrades unnecessary for early defense.
It actually doesn't give you creep spread because you can't spread creep without map control against a good player
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EPT
