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On May 09 2011 17:36 Thrombozyt wrote:
All the talk of how a wall-off is so uber strong defensively and also as pressure (?) ignore one fact:
You don't have to bust the main when you are on 2 bases and he is on one.
Yes, your lings/roaches won't get up the force fielded ramp or past the fortified entrance. But they don't have to. Pressure does not equal to 'threatening to kill'. Example:
I open with 2 rax bunker pressure and build an expansion in my main. I force a ton of ling out of the Zerg but the moment speed kicks in and my force is busted, those lings don't use value. They deny me the option to float my CC out most of the time. Yes, I can build extra SCVs, but that's not too hot when I'm already close to saturation. Meanwhile you lings camp outside my ramp and until I have teched up to siege and INCHED my way out of my main, I cannot land my CC and my natural and I'm effectively on 1 base while you can drone up like a mad man and get a 3rd.
You want to tell me that those lings suck for pressure because they cannot get past the wall?
Sure, the ideal Zerg is the one that makes exactly the amount of units he needs to defend and puts the rest in drones and expansions. But please when you say that you are 'behind', compare yourself to your opponent and not to the hypothetical ideal Zerg.
Whether or not you pressure a terran, he won't cut his SCVs to get marines or any defenses.
If you pressure a zerg, he will make defenses, which comes from larvas, which is 1 less drone everytime a larva is used.
It doesn't work the same way
That's why protoss are seen a bit "imba", cause they can keep up the production of probes like a terran but faster (chronoboost) while getting an army for defense (+forcefield, walls etc)
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On May 09 2011 18:00 Baeksucho wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 17:36 Thrombozyt wrote:
All the talk of how a wall-off is so uber strong defensively and also as pressure (?) ignore one fact:
You don't have to bust the main when you are on 2 bases and he is on one.
Yes, your lings/roaches won't get up the force fielded ramp or past the fortified entrance. But they don't have to. Pressure does not equal to 'threatening to kill'. Example:
I open with 2 rax bunker pressure and build an expansion in my main. I force a ton of ling out of the Zerg but the moment speed kicks in and my force is busted, those lings don't use value. They deny me the option to float my CC out most of the time. Yes, I can build extra SCVs, but that's not too hot when I'm already close to saturation. Meanwhile you lings camp outside my ramp and until I have teched up to siege and INCHED my way out of my main, I cannot land my CC and my natural and I'm effectively on 1 base while you can drone up like a mad man and get a 3rd.
You want to tell me that those lings suck for pressure because they cannot get past the wall?
Sure, the ideal Zerg is the one that makes exactly the amount of units he needs to defend and puts the rest in drones and expansions. But please when you say that you are 'behind', compare yourself to your opponent and not to the hypothetical ideal Zerg. Whether or not you pressure a terran, he won't cut his SCVs to get marines or any defenses. If you pressure a zerg, he will make defenses, which comes from larvas, which is 1 less drone everytime a larva is used. It doesn't work the same way That's why protoss are seen a bit "imba", cause they can keep up the production of probes like a terran but faster (chronoboost) while getting an army for defense (+forcefield, walls etc)
What the hell are you talking about? How does the MULE play into that genius point you're trying to make??
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On May 09 2011 06:33 Drgggg wrote:Show nested quote +Zerg defensive options are inferior to other races, and we don't have great defensive units like siege tanks and sentries that become core army units later in the game. Roaches do not come close to either of those defensively. I don't see why you consider roaches bad as a defensive unit. On creep roaches beat everything that isn't an immortal or a colo.
or marauders, voids, banshee, etc
(the 2nd and 3rd is for lul only)
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On May 09 2011 18:07 Ezze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 18:00 Baeksucho wrote:On May 09 2011 17:36 Thrombozyt wrote:
All the talk of how a wall-off is so uber strong defensively and also as pressure (?) ignore one fact:
You don't have to bust the main when you are on 2 bases and he is on one.
Yes, your lings/roaches won't get up the force fielded ramp or past the fortified entrance. But they don't have to. Pressure does not equal to 'threatening to kill'. Example:
I open with 2 rax bunker pressure and build an expansion in my main. I force a ton of ling out of the Zerg but the moment speed kicks in and my force is busted, those lings don't use value. They deny me the option to float my CC out most of the time. Yes, I can build extra SCVs, but that's not too hot when I'm already close to saturation. Meanwhile you lings camp outside my ramp and until I have teched up to siege and INCHED my way out of my main, I cannot land my CC and my natural and I'm effectively on 1 base while you can drone up like a mad man and get a 3rd.
You want to tell me that those lings suck for pressure because they cannot get past the wall?
Sure, the ideal Zerg is the one that makes exactly the amount of units he needs to defend and puts the rest in drones and expansions. But please when you say that you are 'behind', compare yourself to your opponent and not to the hypothetical ideal Zerg. Whether or not you pressure a terran, he won't cut his SCVs to get marines or any defenses. If you pressure a zerg, he will make defenses, which comes from larvas, which is 1 less drone everytime a larva is used. It doesn't work the same way That's why protoss are seen a bit "imba", cause they can keep up the production of probes like a terran but faster (chronoboost) while getting an army for defense (+forcefield, walls etc) What the hell are you talking about? How does the MULE play into that genius point you're trying to make??
Let's say 1 mule = 4 probe,
Chronoboost probes, get worker lead to keep up with terran mules
chronoboost more, get even more worker while terran has to build another CC to spawn another mule (to keep with the probe production).
well, if the terran gets another CC, why not get another Nexus and have 2* chronoboost also ? .
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Why is there a discussion about the basics of the game here?
Protoss only need 1 Probe to build a whole base; Terrans need an SCV for each building and add ons make production facilities temporarily unuseable; Zerg only need one Drone to build a new tech building and they can build new units with all of their larvae. Yadda yadda yadda ... basic stuff which make the Starcraft world go around and which wont be changed. Chronoboost, MULE, Larvae injections is just as different in defining the style of the races, so whats the point of arguing?
The grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side of the fence, so lets return to the topic, which is the show and not the game balance.
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"why is there discussion about the basics of the game here?" (good question)
(goes on to discuss the basics of the game)
....>< But yeah I agree with you. More talk about the show and games, less banter about the game! No one ever wins these arguments. There's nothing to win.
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On May 09 2011 19:01 RogerChillingworth wrote:
"why is there discussion about the basics of the game here?" (good question)
(goes on to discuss the basics of the game)
....><
I didnt discuss the differences ... I only listed them without any judgements and said there is a difference between the three races and that is good. You cant ever compare apples and oranges and have a definitive answer which one is better is all I am saying.
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On May 09 2011 17:55 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 17:36 Thrombozyt wrote:
All the talk of how a wall-off is so uber strong defensively and also as pressure (?) ignore one fact:
You don't have to bust the main when you are on 2 bases and he is on one.
Yes, your lings/roaches won't get up the force fielded ramp or past the fortified entrance. But they don't have to. Pressure does not equal to 'threatening to kill'. Example:
I open with 2 rax bunker pressure and build an expansion in my main. I force a ton of ling out of the Zerg but the moment speed kicks in and my force is busted, those lings don't use value. They deny me the option to float my CC out most of the time. Yes, I can build extra SCVs, but that's not too hot when I'm already close to saturation. Meanwhile you lings camp outside my ramp and until I have teched up to siege and INCHED my way out of my main, I cannot land my CC and my natural and I'm effectively on 1 base while you can drone up like a mad man and get a 3rd.
You want to tell me that those lings suck for pressure because they cannot get past the wall?
Sure, the ideal Zerg is the one that makes exactly the amount of units he needs to defend and puts the rest in drones and expansions. But please when you say that you are 'behind', compare yourself to your opponent and not to the hypothetical ideal Zerg. That's so wrong, just look at Jinro vs IdrA and how he expand himself : camp ramp, make a bunker just under the ramp, then take position little by little while the CC is building, and expand. The zerg cannot "theaten to kill" because, at this moment (which is between 5 & 6 min I suppose ?), as a zerg, if you build units and not drone, it's like going all in (zergling takes a lot of larvae). + Show Spoiler +Most of you are talking about things that are irrelevant. Like it's hard for a terran to defend a third with a PF... Terran is all about space and attack path, put down a PF at the right position, control your opponent attack path, etc. Tank being slow does not make them bad in defense, just tricky to use .
Which Idra vs Jinro game are you talking? There are many.
And bunker inching takes some time, too and can be prevented by 3 roaches that run in, one-shot the building SCV and go out again. But we disgress. The point I made was to shut down all the Zergs complaining that the units that they make to keep them safe cannot apply pressure. I on the other hand say that they can and I give an in-game example. If you have many speedlings/roaches early game against a terran - be it because you had to fend off early aggression or because you made them to be safe - you can use them to apply pressure and delay the opponents expand.
Yes, Zergs that produce units will be behind Zergs that make 2 lings and the rest drones, when there is no pressure incoming. But that's because the power droning Zerg is greedy and risky and leaves himself open to be punished. Just as griffith 4 OC build falters against early pressure that's cleverly disguised, because T pumps a ton into economy before teching and getting units.
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If anyone watches day9 a few weeks ago (or last week can't remember) he did 2v2 stuff so I was half watching as I did school work and I caught some things that I think apply to 1v1.
He wad talking about sacrificing economy for map control and how by getting early map control you can then safely build economy.
FXOsheth a amazing zerg does something similar where in ZvP he makes 8 early links and if the toss doesn't chrono the sentry he attacks and kills the zealots and then has free rang in the base while droning like a mad man. And if the toss chronos the sentry and uses a FF then he backs up and still drones like crazy knowing he wasted a FF and a chrono so he has done some "damage" and has map presence
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Just too mix the thread up a little bit thought i would say thanks for this great show and i appreciate the hosts of this show (especially JP because he does SC Center too which is GREAT) for taking time out of there busy schedules and posting great content such as this. =D
Keep it up!!!!
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I would really love to get more episodes with a Terran player as part of the cast. I still manage to find a lot of valuable information in the episodes, but I can't help but feel that the podcast does a much better job of catering to the Zerg, and more eminently, the Protoss players.
I'd love to hear from terran players who haven't been in the spotlight as much. I'd love to hear players like ThisIsJimmy for example, or other unsung heroes of Terrandom give their thoughts on the current state of Starcraft II.
There are a bunch of High level terran players streaming, but they hardly get any views because people don't know them enough. SOTG could become a platform to help introduce these players and their interpretation of the game to the community.
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I would also love to hear from ThisIsJimmy he is a great player and deserves a lot of recognition from the sc2 community. gogo ThisIsJimmy FIGHTING
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On May 10 2011 09:43 AraMoOse wrote:
I would really love to get more episodes with a Terran player as part of the cast. I still manage to find a lot of valuable information in the episodes, but I can't help but feel that the podcast does a much better job of catering to the Zerg, and more eminently, the Protoss players.
I'd love to hear from terran players who haven't been in the spotlight as much. I'd love to hear players like ThisIsJimmy for example, or other unsung heroes of Terrandom give their thoughts on the current state of Starcraft II.
There are a bunch of High level terran players streaming, but they hardly get any views because people don't know them enough. SOTG could become a platform to help introduce these players and their interpretation of the game to the community.
Completely agree. I am a tad bit bias, but you make an awesome point that I think many other would agree with.
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the problem with terran guests is we will have a whole show of everyone being so funny and original about how banshees are flying ranged dts
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Will state of the game still be at it's regular time this week? I'm asking because GSL rescheduled their matches to be earlier tomorrow so SotG will conflict with GSL if it is at the normal time.
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On May 10 2011 09:52 turdburgler wrote:
the problem with terran guests is we will have a whole show of everyone being so funny and original about how banshees are flying ranged dts
And who will make these jokes? The "Protoss regulars" of the show ... so its not the problem of the Terran guests.
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Yeah I was wondering about the SotG/GSL scheduling. Will it be at the same time as usual JP? GSL will start at 12 a.m. EST 9 p.m. PST so...
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I didnt discuss the differences ... I only listed them without any judgements and said there is a difference between the three races and that is good. You cant ever compare apples and oranges and have a definitive answer which one is better is all I am saying.
Nice save, you are right that wasn't "discussion" since like you said you were just stating info ^_^
Saw SotG for the first time (only saw like 5% of it and skipped around) and boy these take 2 hours, and really idk how you guys are able to watch it all the way through o.o a lot of the discussion isn't "juicy", maybe people watch more because their favorite figures are there.
Whether or not you pressure a terran, he won't cut his SCVs to get marines or any defenses.
If you pressure a zerg, he will make defenses, which comes from larvas, which is 1 less drone everytime a larva is used.
It doesn't work the same way
That's why protoss are seen a bit "imba", cause they can keep up the production of probes like a terran but faster (chronoboost) while getting an army for defense (+forcefield, walls etc)
1 less drone? So you are comparing Terran being able to build SCVs at one time to a Zerg who only builds 1 drone at the same time. No, it certainly is not the same thing. (What I'm trying to say is this... Zergs don't build 1 drone each larvae cycle). Your post doesn't seem to be even relevant to the post you quoted, so maybe I'm not reading you right; your post is pretty unclear however.
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On May 09 2011 18:18 Baeksucho wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 18:07 Ezze wrote:On May 09 2011 18:00 Baeksucho wrote:On May 09 2011 17:36 Thrombozyt wrote:
All the talk of how a wall-off is so uber strong defensively and also as pressure (?) ignore one fact:
You don't have to bust the main when you are on 2 bases and he is on one.
Yes, your lings/roaches won't get up the force fielded ramp or past the fortified entrance. But they don't have to. Pressure does not equal to 'threatening to kill'. Example:
I open with 2 rax bunker pressure and build an expansion in my main. I force a ton of ling out of the Zerg but the moment speed kicks in and my force is busted, those lings don't use value. They deny me the option to float my CC out most of the time. Yes, I can build extra SCVs, but that's not too hot when I'm already close to saturation. Meanwhile you lings camp outside my ramp and until I have teched up to siege and INCHED my way out of my main, I cannot land my CC and my natural and I'm effectively on 1 base while you can drone up like a mad man and get a 3rd.
You want to tell me that those lings suck for pressure because they cannot get past the wall?
Sure, the ideal Zerg is the one that makes exactly the amount of units he needs to defend and puts the rest in drones and expansions. But please when you say that you are 'behind', compare yourself to your opponent and not to the hypothetical ideal Zerg. Whether or not you pressure a terran, he won't cut his SCVs to get marines or any defenses. If you pressure a zerg, he will make defenses, which comes from larvas, which is 1 less drone everytime a larva is used. It doesn't work the same way That's why protoss are seen a bit "imba", cause they can keep up the production of probes like a terran but faster (chronoboost) while getting an army for defense (+forcefield, walls etc) What the hell are you talking about? How does the MULE play into that genius point you're trying to make?? Let's say 1 mule = 4 probe, Chronoboost probes, get worker lead to keep up with terran mules chronoboost more, get even more worker while terran has to build another CC to spawn another mule (to keep with the probe production). well, if the terran gets another CC, why not get another Nexus and have 2* chronoboost also ? .
Because you can't fly your nexus to the expansion. A terran can get a second CC in his base for extra mules and scv production, cuz he knows that he can always fly that CC to the exp when its time to expans.
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EPT
