EPTOn topic though, I get what you are saying about the macro mechanics, but instead of mucking about with energy costs or effectiveness of mules themselves, I think was was mentioned in this thread by others is a better idea: Give mule ability a cooldown, thereby punishing bad macro, the mule in itself isn't that bad, but the ability to spam them (especially when you get a gold expansion) doesn't force the Terran to keep up with the macro abilities like Zerg or Protoss have to (Protoss can spam too but that depends on the amount of tech buildings/robo's he has available to use it on)
TvZ Balance Suggestions - Page 24
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Flyingdutchman
Netherlands858 Posts
On topic though, I get what you are saying about the macro mechanics, but instead of mucking about with energy costs or effectiveness of mules themselves, I think was was mentioned in this thread by others is a better idea: Give mule ability a cooldown, thereby punishing bad macro, the mule in itself isn't that bad, but the ability to spam them (especially when you get a gold expansion) doesn't force the Terran to keep up with the macro abilities like Zerg or Protoss have to (Protoss can spam too but that depends on the amount of tech buildings/robo's he has available to use it on) | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10677 Posts
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Sputty
Canada161 Posts
On August 03 2010 23:50 Velr wrote: Marauders are doing pretty good Damage for being Tanks... Roaches don't. Marauders do very bad damage against non-armoured units, so not really(and their damage vs armoured is about the same as marines) | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 03 2010 23:50 Flyingdutchman wrote: I suggest nerfing Lalush so he has to play with his feet, maybe then I could have a chance against him in placement matches :D On topic though, I get what you are saying about the macro mechanics, but instead of mucking about with energy costs or effectivienss of mules themselves, I think was was mentioned in this thread by others is a better idea: Give mule ability a cooldown, thereby punishing bad macro, the mule in itself isn't that bad, but the ability to spam them (especially when you get a gold expansion) doesn't force the Terran to keep up with the macro abilities like Zerg or Protoss have to (Protoss can spam too but that depends on the amount of tech buildings/robo's he has available to use it on) That'd kill Terran late game though. Taking a risky expansion is often only really worth it if you can MULE up a full base super quickly. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 03 2010 23:50 Velr wrote: Marauders are doing pretty good Damage for being Tanks while raping buildings and armored units... Roaches just Tank. They also burrow, and regenerate, iirc, faster than Storm deals damage to them while burrowed. I'm just talking composition wise, not everything each unit can do. | ||
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Ainsworth
49 Posts
Don't get me wrong though, I love me some Mutas. I just wish 1-2 thors and some missile turrets wouldn't stop Muta harass in it's tracks. I feel Zerg is really close but is not a complete race at the moment. Maybe an upgrade for Mutas that lets them carry banelings like little bombs.  Or a cap on splash at 3 - 4 units. (Warcraft 3 did this with AOE spells - was 5 units). (Note: 75% of my games are as Terran, however have been playing predominantly Zerg since the game came out.) | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 03 2010 23:51 Sputty wrote: Marauders do very bad damage against non-armoured units, so not really(and their damage vs armoured is about the same as marines) Two marines out DPS one marauder against an armored target, I'm almost certain. So yes, marines are the damage dealers in the MnM ball. Not that that has ANYTHING to do with any imbalance in TvZ (Except perhaps T being too weak in this scenario. =]) | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 03 2010 23:53 Ainsworth wrote: Obviously you don't A click Thors with Mutas. Two Thors in a Terran base completely negate any movement advantage Mutas have however. Especially combined with marines/vikings and well placed missile turrets. Don't get me wrong though, I love me some Mutas. I just wish 1-2 thors and some missile turrets wouldn't stop Muta harass in it's tracks. I feel Zerg is really close but is not a complete race at the moment. Maybe an upgrade for Mutas that lets them carry banelings like little bombs. Or a cap on splash at 3 - 4 units. (Warcraft 3 did this with AOE spells - was 5 units). (Note: 75% of my games are as Terran, however have been playing predominantly Zerg since the game came out.) But that's kinda the defensive advantage. I dunno. I feel that some spore crawlers and a queen do the same thing, but I'm not entirely sure. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On August 03 2010 23:56 MythicalMage wrote: But that's kinda the defensive advantage. I dunno. I feel that some spore crawlers and a queen do the same thing, but I'm not entirely sure. stop posting | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
In a game like SC2 when units can do a shitload of damages, they feel a little weak. :s Thor are better than Goliath, Turret are better than in BW, Marines have more hp. Everything terran have to fight muta is better but muta are worse than in BW. But i guess it's okay, it's not a big deal.. just a little thought. | ||
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Ainsworth
49 Posts
On August 03 2010 23:56 MythicalMage wrote: But that's kinda the defensive advantage. I dunno. I feel that some spore crawlers and a queen do the same thing, but I'm not entirely sure. I don't know about you, but I feel a lot safer attacking a Zerg base with Mutas that has 5 queens and some spore crawlers than I do attacking a Terran base that has 2 Thors. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 04 2010 00:03 Apolo wrote: The moving shot for the viking is a bad ideia imo. As if void rays weren't already easily countered and almost always only worth having them early game, their place in TvP with vikings having moving shot would be even closer to zero. If that were to be done, then voids original range should be restored and vikings' decreased to 8 or 7. Well the reason for the nerf was before vikings could even be feasibly gotten out. It was to deal with them abusing ledges and marines not being able to hit them. But perhaps a range upgrade for them, then? Seems reasonable for transitioning them into a normal army composition. | ||
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eNyoron
United States170 Posts
I'd like to see MULEs actually have to compete with SCVs to mine a mineral patch - it's ridiculous that a terran at two bases can out resource a fully saturated three base zerg/toss. The balance for base taking as terran was that their units are extremely cost effective. Now, they have cost effective units, the ability to lift off and make a planetary fortress at location (which zerg has no good way of handling until they get ultralisks/brood lord), orbital commands which can instantly saturate ANY base AND access to an income per base that is literally impossible for the other races to compete with. Additionally, there needs to be a cost effective way to handle planetary fortresses before reaching hive tech. Zerg has no unit that out ranges them, and with the corruptor nerf, no way to disable them. Furthermore, PFs don't even do friendly splash damage, so you can't even run lings to the mineral line and do damage that way. There's also an issue with AI where PFs and bunkers take priority over combat units, despite combat units being far more fragile and a better target. Zerg needs to constantly be watching every expo ever and have units ready to assault them, because terran can claim and double saturate an expo instantly. Terran on the other hand just needs to throw a scan or hellion around every minute or two. Also, burrow and overspeed should return to 50/50. Either that or make reaper speed and conc 100/100. | ||
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psion
106 Posts
On August 03 2010 23:24 trevf wrote: Don't know how up to date you are on this subject but even Greenspan is admitting that the Bush tax cuts have to go. In his widely respected opionion these tax cuts don't pay for themselves as Republicans insist. The wealthy are wealthy because of either their willingness to exploit the system at the expense of others, or they were born into a wealthy situation. That was hilariously irrelevant, but thanks for proving my point over motives and bias. Anyway, I think this thread has mostly devolved into a cultural argument more than anything. As in, the "nothing is OP" crowd and the Terran players vs. the Zerg players and the unbiased players. All skill levels included, so lots of confusion and misinformation. Idra may be right or may be wrong, but that's why I felt it very silly to use Idra as an example while ignoring his comments. It's ignorance and grasping at straws. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 04 2010 00:05 Ainsworth wrote: I don't know about you, but I feel a lot safer attacking a Zerg base with Mutas that has 5 queens and some spore crawlers than I do attacking a Terran base that has 2 Thors. I wouldn't, considering I microed and he transfused. But that's just personal taste more than anything, I guess. Seven mutas can beat one thor with some micro, but Thors are still pretty cost effective. But I get what you're saying. Zerg just doesn't have any really beefy anti air, and I think that is a flaw. | ||
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trevf
United States237 Posts
On August 03 2010 23:53 Ainsworth wrote: Obviously you don't A click Thors with Mutas. Two Thors in a Terran base completely negate any movement advantage Mutas have however. Especially combined with marines/vikings and well placed missile turrets. Don't get me wrong though, I love me some Mutas. I just wish 1-2 thors and some missile turrets wouldn't stop Muta harass in it's tracks. I feel Zerg is really close but is not a complete race at the moment. Maybe an upgrade for Mutas that lets them carry banelings like little bombs. Or a cap on splash at 3 - 4 units. (Warcraft 3 did this with AOE spells - was 5 units). (Note: 75% of my games are as Terran, however have been playing predominantly Zerg since the game came out.) 2 thors is a lot of resource to have invested for base defense, which is what they become when getting harassed a lot with mutas. If I'm seeing a lot of mutas I typically keep 1 thor in my main and one at my expo and then start getting turrets up. This really hurts the size of the rest of my army though which generally means I end up losing a lot of map control. This causes me to fall behind when zerg either takes a third base or suicides their army into mine. Spawn larva means zerg army comes back 2x as fast as my sad army. I'm not a highly-skilled player though, just mid diamond. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
@Psion: What crowd do I fall into? I think you just insinuated that everyone unbiased favored Zerg. I like to think I'm somewhere in the middle. | ||
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Zoltan
United States656 Posts
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