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On August 04 2010 00:10 psion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 23:24 trevf wrote:On August 03 2010 23:16 psion wrote:On August 03 2010 23:00 trevf wrote:On August 03 2010 22:56 psion wrote:On August 03 2010 22:42 Zoltan wrote:
What nonsense- How is Idra winning tournaments then? This is pretty funny to me. People can say Idra won this or that tournament, so ZvT is fine. But when Idra himself says ZvT isn't fine, people ignore him. It's like the wealthy saying, 'We need more tax cuts'. Everyone else can see the fact that they already got their cheese but they keep crying for more cheddar. Just say no to TvZ IMBA. That sounds reasonable, but it's actually more like the wealthy, who have extensive knowledge and understanding of the financial situation, explaining why there should be tax cuts. They're wealthy because of that knowledge and understanding. Don't know how up to date you are on this subject but even Greenspan is admitting that the Bush tax cuts have to go. In his widely respected opionion these tax cuts don't pay for themselves as Republicans insist. The wealthy are wealthy because of either their willingness to exploit the system at the expense of others, or they were born into a wealthy situation. That was hilariously irrelevant, but thanks for proving my point over motives and bias. Anyway, I think this thread has mostly devolved into a cultural argument more than anything. As in, the "nothing is OP" crowd and the Terran players vs. the Zerg players and the unbiased players. All skill levels included, so lots of confusion and misinformation. Idra may be right or may be wrong, but that's why I felt it very silly to use Idra as an example while ignoring his comments. It's ignorance and grasping at straws.
Irrelevant is my middle name.
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On August 04 2010 00:18 Zoltan wrote:
Anyone ever suggest corruptors getting +1 range and a +1 range upgrade for 100/100 60 sec at hive tech? That way they can fight the vikigns off without being overly-outranged? Would that break tvp (let me answer that for you: no), Would that break TvZ? Nope. Would it stop the complaining? Probably not. I think this and the OPs original bunker suggestion are the only real viable changes to be made.
The problem isn't their strength.
The problem with them is that you have absolutely no reason to get them except if the Z/T makes a unit that you need the corruptor for to counter them.
While for example a vikings kills overlords, can land to harass/attack ground, a phoenix can lift stuff. and other air units have a "reason" to be built, aka have a air unit that does dmg.
While the corruptor is just there because well, else zerg would die to some sorts of air or collossi in some cases. and outside of that there is no reason to make them.
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On August 04 2010 00:18 Zoltan wrote:
Anyone ever suggest corruptors getting +1 range and a +1 range upgrade for 100/100 60 sec at hive tech? That way they can fight the vikigns off without being overly-outranged? Would that break tvp (let me answer that for you: no), Would that break TvZ? Nope. Would it stop the complaining? Probably not. I think this and the OPs original bunker suggestion are the only real viable changes to be made.
It COULD have implications on late game mech. I dunno if it will or not, but that's something that would have to be tested.
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I love, how this thread has become a Zerg "asylum" and everyone posts any kind of crazy ideas, which most are completle out of control. This is just ridiculous, but Im at least enjoying spare time during my work.. :DD
Its interesting, that 4-5 weeks after that huge patch nerfing mech this is happening again. Id literally call forums on tl.net as a "Hive cluster".. lol
Either Zerg players are totally unable to adapt and come up with some constructive ideas or something is really wrong here (which is possible)..
edit: Sorry, this post is a bit agressive, but I just cant help myself.. 
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On August 04 2010 00:26 Everlong wrote:I love, how this thread has become a Zerg "asylum" and everyone posts any kind of crazy ideas, which most are completle out of control. This is just ridiculous, but Im at least enjoying spare time during my work.. :DD Its interesting, that 4-5 weeks after that huge patch nerfing mech this is happening again. Id literally call forums on tl.net as a "Hive cluster".. lol Either Zerg players are totally unable to adapt and come up with some constructive ideas or something is really wrong here (which is possible).. edit: Sorry, this post is a bit agressive, but I just cant help myself..
You're aggressive? Just like what the zerg aren't?
Sorry, really couldn't resist, but I think the zerg NEED a way to become aggressive. They feel super passive right now with Mutas sucking and banelings being super expensive and zerglings being highly situational.
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FOn August 03 2010 22:33 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:29 RifleCow wrote:
Problem is simply terran have too many options, everything they do requires a specific counter by zerg which would cripple them if the result turns out the other way. Zerg are unable to scout the vast array of options by the Terran, and even if the initial opening by terran gets perfectly countered by zerg the terran isn't even in too bad a position. Back in BW you open some sort of cheesy 2 port wraith build, you can't switch back to SK terran without some serious consequences. If you make the options terran has unscoutable, then atleast make the consequence of the build failing scalable. As previously stated, removing the instant kill ability of some of the terran early game strategies will effectively solve alot of these problems without affecting TvP since you rarely see early game wins in that MU. There's a very obvious reason for that: Terran has more units. Period. The way I see it, Zerg will almost certainly get more units in their expansion. I'm saying around two to three, maybe more, perhaps a mechanics change or two. I'm not saying that this is good, but I'm saying this is the way it is. *prepares to get flamed*
This is exactly what happened in the last tvz thread you came into the thread quoted everyone and responded with a misinterpretation or talked about random useless things like the glorious coming of an expansion. We get it an expansion is coming and it might add units but this thread is about fixing tvz now. Please get on the right point of the thread instead of derailing it
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On August 04 2010 00:35 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 00:26 Everlong wrote:I love, how this thread has become a Zerg "asylum" and everyone posts any kind of crazy ideas, which most are completle out of control. This is just ridiculous, but Im at least enjoying spare time during my work.. :DD Its interesting, that 4-5 weeks after that huge patch nerfing mech this is happening again. Id literally call forums on tl.net as a "Hive cluster".. lol Either Zerg players are totally unable to adapt and come up with some constructive ideas or something is really wrong here (which is possible).. edit: Sorry, this post is a bit agressive, but I just cant help myself.. You're aggressive? Just like what the zerg aren't? Sorry, really couldn't resist, but I think the zerg NEED a way to become aggressive. They feel super passive right now with Mutas sucking and banelings being super expensive and zerglings being highly situational.
What??? Is this guy high?
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On August 04 2010 00:35 Ruthless wrote:F Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:33 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 22:29 RifleCow wrote:
Problem is simply terran have too many options, everything they do requires a specific counter by zerg which would cripple them if the result turns out the other way. Zerg are unable to scout the vast array of options by the Terran, and even if the initial opening by terran gets perfectly countered by zerg the terran isn't even in too bad a position. Back in BW you open some sort of cheesy 2 port wraith build, you can't switch back to SK terran without some serious consequences. If you make the options terran has unscoutable, then atleast make the consequence of the build failing scalable. As previously stated, removing the instant kill ability of some of the terran early game strategies will effectively solve alot of these problems without affecting TvP since you rarely see early game wins in that MU. There's a very obvious reason for that: Terran has more units. Period. The way I see it, Zerg will almost certainly get more units in their expansion. I'm saying around two to three, maybe more, perhaps a mechanics change or two. I'm not saying that this is good, but I'm saying this is the way it is. *prepares to get flamed* This is exactly what happened in the last tvz thread you came into the thread quoted everyone and responded with a misinterpretation or talked about random useless things like the glorious coming of an expansion. We get it an expansion is coming and it might add units but this thread is about fixing tvz now. Please get on the right point of the thread instead of derailing it
I apologize for that thread. I've had a bit of a change of heart. I think that something should be done, but literally the reason zerg has so few options is their so few units. You can count them if you'd like. That's the issue. Adding any units, however situational would be good, but it's likely not going to happen due to the expansion around the corner. I'm sorry if that's upsetting or anything, but I can't think of any way around it unless there's some information I don't know about. At least the game is a lot more balanced than SC1 before BW. Or WC3 before TFT.
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On August 04 2010 00:39 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 00:35 MythicalMage wrote:On August 04 2010 00:26 Everlong wrote:I love, how this thread has become a Zerg "asylum" and everyone posts any kind of crazy ideas, which most are completle out of control. This is just ridiculous, but Im at least enjoying spare time during my work.. :DD Its interesting, that 4-5 weeks after that huge patch nerfing mech this is happening again. Id literally call forums on tl.net as a "Hive cluster".. lol Either Zerg players are totally unable to adapt and come up with some constructive ideas or something is really wrong here (which is possible).. edit: Sorry, this post is a bit agressive, but I just cant help myself.. You're aggressive? Just like what the zerg aren't? Sorry, really couldn't resist, but I think the zerg NEED a way to become aggressive. They feel super passive right now with Mutas sucking and banelings being super expensive and zerglings being highly situational. What??? Is this guy high?
A bit tired is all. XP. I think I worded it a bit weirdly, but the point was that Zerg is super super passive right now. They have next to no options for harass, really, and they feel super pinned back. That's a problem with the game, I think.
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On August 04 2010 00:10 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 00:05 Ainsworth wrote:On August 03 2010 23:56 MythicalMage wrote:
But that's kinda the defensive advantage. I dunno. I feel that some spore crawlers and a queen do the same thing, but I'm not entirely sure. I don't know about you, but I feel a lot safer attacking a Zerg base with Mutas that has 5 queens and some spore crawlers than I do attacking a Terran base that has 2 Thors. I wouldn't, considering I microed and he transfused. But that's just personal taste more than anything, I guess. Seven mutas can beat one thor with some micro, but Thors are still pretty cost effective. But I get what you're saying. Zerg just doesn't have any really beefy anti air, and I think that is a flaw.
The thing though, if you kill all those queens, Zerg can't produce anymore. Sure queens are good anti air, but if you lose your ability to larva you are log jammed for a while and when you aren't producing larva, you are losing.
Now, Thors aren't just good Muta defense, they also back up infantry well and when 3 or more start firing they melt hydras and roaches. They aren't one dimensional units. 36 food of Thors is really, really devastating. Once Terran gets the magic number of Thors, its really hard to come back. Zerglings are the only viable Thor counter and that's assuming there are only Thors in combat. Thors do 60+ per volley (30 from each of their two arm cannons) against ground units. I think that's the thing, not only are Thors extremely effective against Zerg air, they are also extremely effective against ranged Zerg ground. I could live with 13 range siege tanks and 9 range vikings, if Thors wouldn't be so damn good at melting my roaches and my mutas.
Oh yeah, and they can cast 250 mm Strike Cannons.
I GOT IT!!! Infestors just need to learn how to fly! Flying an infestor or 2 with a group of mutas... OP?
Or more wide open levels like Xel'Naga Cavern.
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On August 04 2010 00:26 Everlong wrote:I love, how this thread has become a Zerg "asylum" and everyone posts any kind of crazy ideas, which most are completle out of control. This is just ridiculous, but Im at least enjoying spare time during my work.. :DD Its interesting, that 4-5 weeks after that huge patch nerfing mech this is happening again. Id literally call forums on tl.net as a "Hive cluster".. lol Either Zerg players are totally unable to adapt and come up with some constructive ideas or something is really wrong here (which is possible).. edit: Sorry, this post is a bit agressive, but I just cant help myself..
What patch nerfed mech against Zerg? Making the siege tank damage a bit lower? Well most Zerg units barely notice that due to low hp. Most people agree that the nerf did little in TvZ, but I guess some disagree..
Both Zerg player and Terran players (and even Protoss players!) are humans with basically the same interests (RTS games). To believe that just because a human is playing a certain race they are less creative is just... stupid?
Anyway:
Terran = Feels like complete race with lots of cool options.
Zerg = Feels like an unfinished race.. I guess Blizzard saves most of the cool stuff for the expansion.
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On August 04 2010 00:45 Ainsworth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 00:10 MythicalMage wrote:On August 04 2010 00:05 Ainsworth wrote:On August 03 2010 23:56 MythicalMage wrote:
But that's kinda the defensive advantage. I dunno. I feel that some spore crawlers and a queen do the same thing, but I'm not entirely sure. I don't know about you, but I feel a lot safer attacking a Zerg base with Mutas that has 5 queens and some spore crawlers than I do attacking a Terran base that has 2 Thors. I wouldn't, considering I microed and he transfused. But that's just personal taste more than anything, I guess. Seven mutas can beat one thor with some micro, but Thors are still pretty cost effective. But I get what you're saying. Zerg just doesn't have any really beefy anti air, and I think that is a flaw. The thing though, if you kill all those queens, Zerg can't produce anymore. Sure queens are good anti air, but if you lose your ability to larva you are log jammed for a while and when you aren't producing larva, you are losing. Now, Thors aren't just good Muta defense, they also back up infantry well and when 3 or more start firing they melt hydras and roaches. They aren't one dimensional units. 36 food of Thors is really, really devastating. Once Terran gets the magic number of Thors, its really hard to come back. Zerglings are the only viable Thor counter and that's assuming there are only Thors in combat. Thors do 60+ per volley (30 from each of their two arm cannons) against ground units. I think that's the thing, not only are Thors extremely effective against Zerg air, they are also extremely effective against ranged Zerg ground. I could live with 13 range siege tanks and 9 range vikings, if Thors wouldn't be so damn good at melting my roaches and my mutas. Oh yeah, and they can cast 250 mm Strike Cannons. I GOT IT!!! Infestors just need to learn how to fly! Flying an infestor or 2 with a group of mutas... OP? Or more wide open levels like Xel'Naga Cavern.
Yeah, that seems accurate. Perhaps an ability that allowed them to switch from shooting air to shooting ground, something like a viking transformation?
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As a recent convert from to Zerg from Terran, I can tell you, assuredly and without bias, that Terran is a more complete, accessible and diverse race. That doesn't mean it's better (just, more good).
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I do not understand the purpose of this post. I am a Diamond Terran player and not one of these ideas has been thought through.
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What ever happened to the flying banelings idea?
+ Show Spoiler +Which sounds better then some of the ideas you guys are coming up with.
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On August 04 2010 00:45 eivind wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 00:26 Everlong wrote:I love, how this thread has become a Zerg "asylum" and everyone posts any kind of crazy ideas, which most are completle out of control. This is just ridiculous, but Im at least enjoying spare time during my work.. :DD Its interesting, that 4-5 weeks after that huge patch nerfing mech this is happening again. Id literally call forums on tl.net as a "Hive cluster".. lol Either Zerg players are totally unable to adapt and come up with some constructive ideas or something is really wrong here (which is possible).. edit: Sorry, this post is a bit agressive, but I just cant help myself.. What patch nerfed mech against Zerg? Making the siege tank damage a bit lower? Well most Zerg units barely notice that due to low hp. Most people agree that the nerf did little in TvZ, but I guess some disagree.. Both Zerg player and Terran players (and even Protoss players!) are humans with basically the same interests (RTS games). To believe that just because a human is playing a certain race they are less creative is just... stupid? Anyway: Terran = Feels like complete race with lots of cool options. Zerg = Feels like an unfinished race.. I guess Blizzard saves most of the cool stuff for the expansion.
Of course Im talking about that patch, where siege tanks got - 10 dmg.. But at the same time I will admit, that this is a wrong direction and it barely touched TvZ issue, read several my posts before this one..
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On August 04 2010 00:52 ckw wrote:What ever happened to the flying banelings idea? + Show Spoiler +Which sounds better then some of the ideas you guys are coming up with.
They're called scourge.
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On August 04 2010 00:45 eivind wrote:
What patch nerfed mech against Zerg? Making the siege tank damage a bit lower? Well most Zerg units barely notice that due to low hp. Most people agree that the nerf did little in TvZ, but I guess some disagree..
Patch 15 notes:
Balance Changes
TERRAN
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Siege Tank
Siege Mode damage decreased from 60 to 50.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
10 damage is a huge nerf. You can expect that the zerg problems will be patched soon, blizzard did these patch 15 changes a few days after the "terran mech is imba" topics here on teamliquid =).
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Thors still do 60 damage to ground, however. :D
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On August 04 2010 00:54 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 00:45 eivind wrote:
What patch nerfed mech against Zerg? Making the siege tank damage a bit lower? Well most Zerg units barely notice that due to low hp. Most people agree that the nerf did little in TvZ, but I guess some disagree..
Show nested quote +Patch 15 notes:
Balance Changes
TERRAN
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Siege Tank
Siege Mode damage decreased from 60 to 50.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1. 10 damage is a huge nerf. You can expect that the zerg problems will be patched soon, blizzard did these patch 15 changes a few days after the "terran mech is imba" topics here on teamliquid =).
How is 10 damage a huge nerf? Most T's I've seen say they hardly noticed it. I don't think it even kills in less hits vs most Z units. tbh I think this was more just to make the ultra actually work a little bit vs sieged tanks, not to make Zerg as a whole stronger vs mech.
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EPT
