EPTAutomated Tournaments and the Monetization of Bnet - Page 14
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square .
Spain28 Posts
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Gryffes
United Kingdom763 Posts
Gambling on games where the edge for either player is obvious doesn't last very long at all - the bad players go broke too fast. The reason poker and similar games are popular and longlasting due to player skill giving an edge is that the variance masks the edge to the bad players. The skill gap in SC2 is far far too big for any long term success as a raked game. | ||
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Tdelamay
Canada548 Posts
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arnold(soTa)
Sweden352 Posts
On June 19 2010 07:44 Luckbox wrote: Havn't read the entire thread, but to respond to OP: Gambling on games where the edge for either player is obvious doesn't last very long at all - the bad players go broke too fast. The reason poker and similar games are popular and longlasting due to player skill giving an edge is that the variance masks the edge to the bad players. The skill gap in SC2 is far far too big for any long term success as a raked game. but did you read the OP atleast? He (jinro) suggested that they were based around leagues, and yes I know there is skilldifference in leagues, but once the game is in retail and the ladder(s) have settled this will be less of an issue, and after all, he talked about 1$ and 2$ entries, this is not a huge price. additionally, if you win many tournaments, you wont be able (hopefully) to be placed in tournaments with gold leaguers... this seems only logical. The goal of this is to keep competetive gamers intrested, ladder isnt really that intressting to players who mass and mass games. After all its they who will bring this game forward as a spectator sport, no is gonna watch arnoldatgym vs player on TV, they want to see jinro vs slayers_jaedong | ||
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kael13
United Kingdom48 Posts
This should be posted over on SC2GDF... | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
It's like poker; you don't pay, you don't win. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
first of all, there will be a rush of players in the first few weeks, but literally noone would play the tournaments later on except those who are sure that they have a BIG chance of winning. by big, I mean like 80-100% sure. in a really tough field, not even the pros will try to play these tournaments if they aren't sure that they are going to win. after all, who wants to participate in something when he can be sure that will most likely lose the money? the waiting time for the tournament to fill up will become so long that people start unregistering again. and you can't really compare that to poker since poker gives the perfect illusion of having a realistic chance to win, since first most players don't really have a realistic view of how good they are (everybody overestimates their skills), plus it's a game where you really can win a large sum with "a little" luck-timing (see jamie gold, that asian whose name I already forgot who prayed at the final table of the ME, plus of course the hundreds of donkeys who win tournaments at every pokersite every day). second, yes obv. there would be problems with the games rating and even its legality in some countries. thirdly, the availability of some kind of micropayment system within the game is going to get Blizzard and Activision onto some really evil ideas T_T. better not stretch the patience of the shareholders. next, the lower league tournaments would be really exploitable. if there was really a large amount of tournaments, Blizzard would have to hire a shitload of investigators to keep the games clean, which is never going to happen. if they get paid only 20k a year, which is ridiculously low, only 5 of them (which again is a ridiculously low number) will cost blizzard 100k, which is MUCH, MUCH more than those money-tournaments will bring in for Blizzard. | ||
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zergporn
Estonia156 Posts
who will generally bring money? who are those nice guys that will constantly feed the system? everyone want make money off this, but who will bring money on? my skill sucks, i wont. there are alot of poker players who love to lose a couple dollars evening after work, these are ones that feed the system, and still overall winrate of average smart poker player is tiny these days, yea rake blablabla. edit: nevermore, if the main goal of the idea is just to make the game more popular and stuff - than its ok for sure. still i will never pay a single dollar to play tournament where i dont have clear edge, i won't donate my dollar to some random gosu player, id better directly donate it to my fav caster whatever, the guy who i know at least. | ||
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cocosoft
Sweden1068 Posts
On June 19 2010 07:40 square . wrote: Which isn't the case at the moment because the game isn't fully server-sided ._.I guess over a hundred people will have said this already, but i find this system useless until you are 100% sure that the game is clean of cheaters. | ||
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MidKnight
Lithuania884 Posts
On June 18 2010 23:24 Smu wrote: They don't ban lottery because it is perfectly casual and not that harmless and devastating on the short run (altho it will cost you money in the long run). But most of all, lottery doesn't create addiction that drives people into very unhealthy behavior, which gambling and poker often do. Don't pretend you don't realize this. edit: also, lottery is usually national, horses and such as well, while online poker sites can be anywhere, creating money drains from countries where people play a lot to countries where poker rooms are. Australia is a good example. Yea, but for some reason they don't ban casinos, where most games are 100% luck based AND can cause gambling addictions. Lottery essentially GUARANTEES you will lose money. It chips away at people finances slowly, but it's a sure loss in the long run, except for lucky few. I'm sure that a lot of people wouldn't take an offer to flip a coin with 10 to 1 odds to just win their money back, yet those "pay few bucks and win a million!" lotteries are encouraged and advertised.. Just sayin' | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
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Soap
Brazil1546 Posts
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MD_Vegetables
United States43 Posts
1) I don't really think this system could really be called gambling. In a way that is exactly what this is, but I don't think that it should have such negative connotations associated with it. As a golf enthusiast, I often play in tournaments where there is a pay-to-play fee that helps cover the services provided by the course and staff, as well as supplying a nice prize for the winner. Everyone that enters these tournaments does so with the knowledge that the best golfer will win and that a minimal amount of luck is actually involved - much as would be the case with Starcraft 2. The interesting part is that mostly skill is involved in golf tournaments, as well as a significant time commitment (the better part of a day anyhow), so it is not really addicting (whereas poker combines a great deal of skill with a great deal of luck, leading to the illusion that lesser players can win, thus creating an addiction that lures people to continue to play and risk their money following a quick loss). The combined effect of these factors is that no one associates such tournaments with gambling, and so, they don't receive the negative connotations that come with such an idea. These same factors could be applied to automated Starcraft 2 tournaments over Battle.net 2.0. Individuals would enter with the knowledge that the tournament is optional, has an entrance fee associated with it (this could be scaled depending on how Blizzard wants to run the tournaments), and that the highest likelihood is that the best player in the tournament will come away as the victor. The lack of luck involved with a Starcraft 2 victory dissuades weaker players who just lost from immediately joining another tournament and further losing money on a whim, thinking they are bound to win as soon as luck swings their way. Additionally, Blizzard could very easily set caps on the winnings and entrance fees via an automated system, as well as cap the number of tournaments one can play in in a certain window of time, thereby minimizing the amount of money one can lose and basically removing the association of gambling with such a system. Now of course I am not sure how all of the laws centered around gambling work in America, let alone the rest of the world that is reached by Battle.net 2.0, but by the sound of it, Blizzard has done the same thing with World of Warcraft - the move to Starcraft just needs to be put into motion. 2) My perspective as a lower-tier player lends me a perspective that I feel might be missing from these forums to some degree, essentially because the majority of the community is composed of high-tier to professional players. I recently had the pleasure of watching the HDH Invitational, as well as many of the Zotac Cup matches that were covered by Day[9] (much love), and it made me yearn to play in a tournament. Not one where I could lose a bunch of money of course, but one mostly for fun where if I stepped up my game, I could potentially win a few bones on top of having a blast (I suppose I equate it to paying for entertainment, much like going to the movies). However, I think it is nearly impossible for lower-tier players to get into such tournaments - it would be really boring to watch them, and they would just get stomped by the professionals anyways. However, if at least some tournaments were set up in divisions with just a small entry fee, I think it would generate a lot excitement and get more people involved and having fun playing competitively. I know that I am certainly not a skilled player (but I'm getting a bit better with YABOT!), but I can honestly say that I would definitely pay a small fee from time to time (ranging from free to <$5-10) to play in an automated tournament with people around my skill level, with the hopes of having fun and possibly winning a bit of money. Also, I admit that it won't be easy to set up and regulate (especially with many cheating options available), but if done correctly, I think it could become an integral part of Battle.net 2.0 and yet another feature that sets Starcraft 2 apart from the others. Great idea FrozenArbiter! It would be interesting to compile the different perspectives from this thread and send it to Blizzard. | ||
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zedrOne
France471 Posts
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Skeyser
Canada219 Posts
So a system like you're suggesting would surely cause problem with those countries and states. I could be wrong though, just thought I'd mention it. http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/tournament/legal.xml | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
So first off have the replays automatically update to the blizzard server. This is prevents players from "losing" the replay in question. Blizzard already wanted to implement something like this for proleague so why not do it in tournaments. The uploaded replays do not have to be made public. After some set period they can be deleted to make space for new uploads. If they don't want a constant upload then have tournament admins can collect reps. The tournament admin will have access to the replay in question and can DL it from Blizzard's server. After watching and suspecting something from the rep, the admin can then refer it to some sub-forum where it will be examined by a trusted individual or player. This way anyone can hold tournaments but they don't have the power to randomly disqualify players they do not like. The 2nd examiner if not employed by blizzard can be paid like .05$ for each replays watched and commented on. The comments must be in detail so someone cannot skim a replay and say random things for the purpose of earning money. Perhaps increase the payment for length of replay (.01$ for 5 minute replay .05$ for 30 minutes). This examiner will then make the final decision on whether or not the player is disqualified from the tournament winnings. If hacking is repeated then they can refer to blizzard for ban. For the first players allowed as examiners, have large gaming sites (tl for example) recommend trusted people. | ||
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AlienAlias
United States324 Posts
First, the issue with matching player skill at lower skill levels. This really doesn't seem possible to minimize smurfing enough to make the event enjoyable; after all, it just takes 1 diamond level player in the 128 people to sweep the entire tournament. For example, I play at a diamond league level terran. When I first buy the game I could lose my 5 initial matches and be put in bronze. Then, I start winning tournaments for money. At some point, maybe just 1 tournament, it would elevate my skill. You could say it stops there, but that wouldn't really be true; bringing a player from bronze to diamond for winning 1 or 2 tournaments isn't fair in the least. So now I would dominate silver tournaments. Then gold. Then platinum. Then, finally, I reach my own skill level at diamond. Even if these winnings don't earn enough to purchase another CD-key, I could have gotten all this money super easy just because I was planning to buy the game anyways. Then, I could make an offer on my facebook (now linked with bnet!) to earn some money split 50/50 for anyone planning to buy sc2. The second issue would be time. It's not feasible to have a 6 or 8 round tournament proceed all in one sitting, because a single slow match in the ro32 could delay the next round by an hour. With this in mind, each round would have to be scheduled at a different time, which would alienate a lot of your more casual gamers who would have conflicting schedules. (Aren't sit n gos just 1 round with a full table and blinds increasing every few minutes/hands? i just remember there's some way that prevents it from taking too long. But nothing stops that in a mined out TvT with giant roaming armies guarding final flying buildings.) Anyways, my thoughts are, besides a few possible issues arising, it's a great idea that could help promote e-sports. | ||
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Typho0n
Canada276 Posts
(sorry if someone already said this I didnt look through all 14 pgs) | ||
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Laggy
United States385 Posts
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Mennethitus
United States4 Posts
Someone mentioned that with one press of a key they could have all their queens puking larvae. Now thats just the most basic use, but even this *small* benefit can amount to quite a large advantage. So these unofficial tournaments where your hardware and corresponding software is not examined are extremely vulnerable to such *cheating.* | ||
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