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On June 20 2010 05:44 StarMasterX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 04:16 crimsonsentinel wrote:
Seriously guys, Starcraft is not a game of chance and therefore does not count as gambling. Unfortunately it does in this case. Anytime you wager money on something with an unknown outcome, it is gambling. In particular wagering on almost any game is gambling. The word gambling has just come to mean things with random chance, but it isn't exclusively that. There is no way this is going to happen. There are soooo many legal problems. Technically it could happen (if a bunch of things were implemented and it got really complicated), but it won't.
Except "wager" this time means to pay an entry fee for a tournament. To compare with casino games is at least silly.
It is already happening with Blizzard's own WoW. The question is if its worth to bring it to SC2.
Maybe its a way to break the vicious circle where general people arent interested in esports because it isnt big, it isnt big because there are few sponsors, and theres few sponsors because general people arent interested. Imagine tournaments with 4 figure buyins featuring the best players in the world, with an amazing advantage over poker: SC2 is tremendously more enjoyable to watch.
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It's a neat idea, however... If this would be in the format like a MTT good players could easily abuse the system by deliberately loosing a couple of tournaments in copper and then winning some, keeping them in a lower division and still making a lot of money (since the difference between entry fee and price money is huge).
Hopofully could probably work if it was a diamond-leage kind of thing only though..
On June 20 2010 05:44 StarMasterX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 04:16 crimsonsentinel wrote:
Seriously guys, Starcraft is not a game of chance and therefore does not count as gambling. Unfortunately it does in this case. Anytime you wager money on something with an unknown outcome, it is gambling. In particular wagering on almost any game is gambling. The word gambling has just come to mean things with random chance, but it isn't exclusively that. There is no way this is going to happen. There are soooo many legal problems. Technically it could happen (if a bunch of things were implemented and it got really complicated), but it won't.
So... stock brokers are gamblers, in a legal sense?
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Interesting idea tbh, wouldnt mind paying
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One one hand it seems like fun idea, but then again? Way too much risk for a company like ActiBlizzard. Gambling law is a huge grey area with lots of complications and double standards. Legal or not, implementing a tournament system that resembles Sit'N'Go poker could turn into a huge PR mess. Video Game Controvery. Plus there is no way to stop some forms of hacking/botting in a game like SC2.
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Neat idea. However, I have to agree with everyone that said Blizzard shouldn't dip their hands into a constant transferring of money especially if its an all-around the clock automated system. Sounds like a ton of fun tbh, but people outside of the gaming industry may look down on this and give Blizz bad rep. First impression of this system may point to gambling and legal problems (you know how dumb people are these days). I am pretty sure the game is available for people of all ages, so seeing something like this being implemented may not be a good idea unless you can constrain this content to 21+ years of age.
This may be implemented sometime in the future once the E-sports scene becomes more main streamed in America. Perhaps it'll go though a third-party but not Blizzard themselves.
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On June 20 2010 06:33 DeeD wrote:It's a neat idea, however... If this would be in the format like a MTT good players could easily abuse the system by deliberately loosing a couple of tournaments in copper and then winning some, keeping them in a lower division and still making a lot of money (since the difference between entry fee and price money is huge). Hopofully could probably work if it was a diamond-leage kind of thing only though.. Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 05:44 StarMasterX wrote:On June 20 2010 04:16 crimsonsentinel wrote:
Seriously guys, Starcraft is not a game of chance and therefore does not count as gambling. Unfortunately it does in this case. Anytime you wager money on something with an unknown outcome, it is gambling. In particular wagering on almost any game is gambling. The word gambling has just come to mean things with random chance, but it isn't exclusively that. There is no way this is going to happen. There are soooo many legal problems. Technically it could happen (if a bunch of things were implemented and it got really complicated), but it won't. So... stock brokers are gamblers, in a legal sense?
Stock brokers are just sales people? Do you mean securities traders? Regardless, the buying and selling of stock is not considered gambling because the stock represents ownership in something that has economic value/utility. Even from a speculative context, risking money on the purchase of a company or real estate is different than risking money in a pryamid/ponzi scheme (zero sum gain). Tournaments where the prize pool is paid out by a 3rd party is typically acceptable. Tournaments where the prize pool is 100% paid for by the participants (zero sum gain) could be subject to gambling laws.
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I think that they should just have a league where you have to pay a small fee or a maybe even a monthly fee. then that league would have all the automated tournaments and stuff.
That could be one way to do this
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I think there's a larger issue here in this comparison.
How long would even a 16-person SC2 tournament take to complete? Assuming Bo3's throughout, it will take hours. Each level of the tournament takes an hour (the average time for a Bo3), so the total time invested would be 4 hours. That's a long time. Even if you limit it to an 8-person tournament, that's still 3 hours.
Contrast this to paying in for a table tournament of poker. How long does that take? With 10 players, online, depending on skill rank, 30 minutes to an hour. Hell, I've known people who can play in multiple games simultaneously and be reasonably decent at it.
Not a lot of people are going to be willing to invest that much time in a SC2 tournament.
Oh, and there's cheating to consider. Until the game is 100% foolproof against cheating, no anonymous tournaments like this could ever be run.
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Unless you live in Quebec, he said. It's illegal to enter any such contest there. So there you have it, Canucks! You can pay or write an essay as you choose, unless you're in Quebec, in which case your local laws force you to take the role of spectator.
Fuck.
The lottery laws here are so messed up. Tons of online competitions are illegal here, heck, Google's code jam is illegal here. :|
Also, the government plans on taking over online gambling. "Yay."
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On June 18 2010 09:02 pash1k wrote:
I really like this idea - especially if the entrance fee is small ($1 or $2). I spend a $1 on much more useless things than a SCII tournament.
lol yeah, candy bars are $1 now ffs (I remember when they used to be 3 for $1 at the grocery story I worked at for my first job!)
also, if anyone has here has ever done fantasy sports for money, you would probably agree with me that it's way more enjoyable and intense knowing that something is on the line.
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Excuse my conservative point of view, but this just feels really bad. Yes, with any electronic payment system blizzard could control the age of participants - and as well preserve ruined lives (lol) simply by not having tournaments with huge entry fees; however, tournaments like these would be utterly bad PR for blizzard.
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Would be pretty sick if something like this was implemented but honestly it never will happen due to gambling legalities.
Also I don't think cheating would really be an issue. People get caught for collusion all the time in poker and it seems like it would be 100x easier to find cheaters in sc2.
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I think a big problem is maphack, which is essentially impossible to eliminate in sc2 in it's current state. Especially private methods that stick around forever unless they're used in a blatantly obvious fashion.
The solution would be to use a different form of networking (with only the necessary information stored client side) in money tourneys, but that seems unlikely, and even then those tenacious little fuckers would probably find a way (it is doable).
Another thing, I think maybe it should only be allowed for the very top divisons, because having copper rank doesn't mean shit. You could easily buy a copy for $50, throw your placement matches and go for some ez sit'n'go's and make a buckload of cash.
However if they implemented it in a good way it would be pretty awesome for the competition.
On June 20 2010 10:05 xxjondxx wrote:
Would be pretty sick if something like this was implemented but honestly it never will happen due to gambling legalities.
Also I don't think cheating would really be an issue. People get caught for collusion all the time in poker and it seems like it would be 100x easier to find cheaters in sc2.
Not really, good maphackers will know how to prevent getting caught. Just having a quick glance at a fully revealed minimap every now and then is a tremendous advantage.
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This is a whole can of worms if you open SC2 up to pay tournaments. Besides gambling laws which can vary wildly, you're requiring a credit card for participation, open yourself up even further to fraud, hackers, etc.
Not to mention this game isn't even 100% balanced in the slightest because of maps that favor certain races, then race imbalances overall.
How much of a pain is it to lose your entry fee due to lag or disconnects? That doesn't sound very fun, especially for people in Australia and places with spotty internet, remember, even cable isn't 100% and many times people only have 1 option in their area (so don't spout "get better internet").
I want to like the idea, as a MTGO and occasional online poker player, but I think there's too many problems that would have to be solved before you can even begin to consider going beyond a generic esports game into the realm for real money.
I'd rather see a tournament points accumulation from laddering, where there's a free weekly tournament you use your points to enter for a certain division with higher points offering better rewards to the winner, like certain avatars, decals or even free entry to a higher tournament that pays out money. And from there possibly expand to pay tournaments if everything else gets worked out.
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(I hope someone didn't already say this.)
I've always thought it was awful that someone could buy the game, play it a few times, not be too interested in it anymore, and spend the same amount of money as someone that buys the game, loves it, spends a lot of time playing online, avidly follows all the tournaments, reads forums. Especially since the second person not only has so much entertainment from so little money, he also costs Blizzard more money due to servercosts, community managers, and so on.
This is insane on the face of it: to maximize revenue, short-term at least, Blizzard is better off making a game that people want to spend money on, but then don't want to play, then creating a game with a lot of followers that is very popular online. I mean, there are additional benefits, such as word-of-mouth, loyalty to Blizzard from all the fans for their game, but it's still a perverse incentive for their management.
That's why finding ways to get money from people who spend a lot of time on SCII is a sensible idea, and one that the teamliquid community should essentially embrace (if it were not for the fact it will cost them money) since it increases their leverage over and importance for Blizzard; they become far more than just a fringe group that only costs them.
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And also, I don't think Blizzard's tournaments even fall under gambling laws. There were some residents from countries like the Netherlands that weren't eligible for WoW-tournaments, but I think that was more so precaution from Blizzard, not actual law that would really ban people from participating. Those laws are dumb and because of our so-called Christian government, but they're meant to ban people from, like, online-poker sites, not starcraft.
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i still don't see how an optional buy in turni is going to be bad press.
this is not gambling in anyway, in any major tournament (wsvg, wcg, cpl) you have to pay to play, and you don't see them getting any bad press, or having issue with minors(minus the Mature games thing)
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 20 2010 09:04 NicolBolas wrote:
I think there's a larger issue here in this comparison.
How long would even a 16-person SC2 tournament take to complete? Assuming Bo3's throughout, it will take hours. Each level of the tournament takes an hour (the average time for a Bo3), so the total time invested would be 4 hours. That's a long time. Even if you limit it to an 8-person tournament, that's still 3 hours.
Contrast this to paying in for a table tournament of poker. How long does that take? With 10 players, online, depending on skill rank, 30 minutes to an hour. Hell, I've known people who can play in multiple games simultaneously and be reasonably decent at it.
Not a lot of people are going to be willing to invest that much time in a SC2 tournament.
Oh, and there's cheating to consider. Until the game is 100% foolproof against cheating, no anonymous tournaments like this could ever be run.
1) BO1 
2) There are poker tournaments that last 24 hours+
3) Poker still suffers from collusion (2 players that are friends can join the same tournament and play in a way that benefits them), it's not completely free of cheating.
In addition, the Zotac cup fills up every week and that's way more than a 3 hour investment, it's more like 6 or 7 if you reach the finals.
Not to mention this game isn't even 100% balanced in the slightest because of maps that favor certain races, then race imbalances overall.
How much of a pain is it to lose your entry fee due to lag or disconnects? That doesn't sound very fun, especially for people in Australia and places with spotty internet, remember, even cable isn't 100% and many times people only have 1 option in their area (so don't spout "get better internet").
I'm sure it's not fun disconnecting after you signed up for a 5000$ sit'n'go either, but it happens. If you are lucky, and it's a 1on1 sit'n'go, then your opponent might blind you down and send you your buyin back (minus the rake obviously).
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I still have bad memories from 2006 when 90% of online poker sites were shut down to US players. Hosting a poker site became almost like hosting a file-sharing server, sitting in a little known country hoping the police don't kick down the doors. Activision Blizzard won't touch this if legal even thinks the word "gambling"
That said... I really really hope they implement some type of automated tournament system.
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I hope that this will be incorperated. Just hopin that some stupid law won't set stop for this.
I'm down to play for money, people play better when they have something on the line and you want to play your opponent when he is as best as he can be.(The bigger they are, the harder they fall).
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EPT
