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Automated Tournaments and the Monetization of Bnet

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:23:04
June 17 2010 23:48 GMT
#1
Way back before the Beta started, I wrote a long post (here about the potential for Blizzard to implement automated pay-to-play tournaments, much like the Sit'n'Gos of the poker world.

With all the - generally negative - talk about micro transactions that exists today, I was once again reminded of how the Poker industry manages to essentially charge you for every tournament you play, every hand you win, and yet nobody minds.

First, let me clarify what a Sit'n'Go is:

A poker tournament with no scheduled starting time that starts whenever the necessary players have put up their money. Single-table sit-and-goes, with nine or ten players, are the norm, but multi-table games are common as well. Also called sit n' gos and a variety of other similar spellings.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sit_and_go#sit_and_go

Back then, nothing much was really known about how the new Battle.net would work - in fact, they hadn't even announced divisions yet. So in light of how much more we now know, I want to revisit the idea.

Basic Idea

Currently, the Bnet servers will host a game on any map in the database as soon as a player creates or tries to join said map. When that game fills up, a new map is hosted and the process is repeated.

The Sit'N'Go system would work the same but for tournaments. At any given time, there would be at least one tournament for each supported buyin level (in each division) waiting to fill up. As soon as one does, a new one with the same settings would open up.

Like so:

Platinum - 1v1 - 32 man - 1$ (12/32)
Platinum - 1v1 - 128 man - 0.5$ (50/128)
Platinum - 2v2 - 16 team - 1$ (15/16)

And so on, for each division.

[image loading]
The Pokerstars Sit'n'Go lobby

Of course you could have free tournaments, or qualifier tournaments where the winners advance to bigger end of the month tournaments (for instance, at the end of the month you could have a 20$ buyin tournament, and you could hold a bunch of 2$ qualifier tournaments throughout the months for everyone who doesn't want to pay 20$ to play).




The Monetization

So, how would Blizzard make money from this? They would take a cut from every tournament - the so called "rake".

Rake is the scaled commission fee taken by a cardroom operating a poker game. It is generally 5 to 10 percent of the pot in each poker hand, up to a predetermined maximum amount, but not only can this percentage be anything, there are other non-percentage ways for a casino to take the rake. Some cardrooms will not take a percentage rake in any community card poker game like Texas hold 'em when a hand does not have a flop. This is called "no flop, no drop".

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rake_(poker)

Let's say you pay to play a 1$ tournament with 128 entrants - they take 0.05$ from each entry fee, and the rest goes into the prize pool. This is obviously a tiny amount of money, but it will add up.




Concerns


All the money will go to the best players


One concern back then was that the money would go only to the top players, that in a game of almost entirely skill (unlike poker, which has a large luck element in addition to skill), the bad players would not have enough incentive to play (and by so doing, essentially "feed" the economy by padding the prizes for those with a realistic chance to win).

With the divisions, you could easily make the majority of tournaments closed to a single division - Gold only, Platinum only, and so on and so forth. Perhaps it should only be closed in one way (i.e if a bad player wishes to get a shot at playing with the best, just for the experience, he should perhaps not be stopped from doing so, while if a really good player wants to play with the copper guys.... well, it doesn't seem in line with Blizzards philosophy really).

Of course, a good player could buy a second key or play on a copper friends account, but if you are moved up after winning X tournaments, well, that would eventually get expensive.

Do you want it to be like Formula 1 where people have to buy a seat in a car?
Otherwise, it's not just a zero sum game. You mention a rake. People are going to lose money overall from playing Starcraft 2. That's bad. There should be money to be won. Not money to be lost.


People are going to lose money overall from playing SC2 no matter what you do, short of making the game free.
People lose money from WoW overall.
People lose money from having an internet connection overall.

It's so obvious. Do you want Starcraft 2 to be a sport or not? It's not entertainment which you pay for. It's not supposed to be gambling either.

But it IS entertainment which you pay for, unless you download the game.. WoW has a monthly fee, this isn't even like that - this is an optional fee that you can choose to pay. Even if you don't want to pay, free tournaments can easily run around the clock, simultaneously with the pay-to-play ones.

Esports should copy chess, not poker.

Chess tournaments frequently have entrance fees.

I don't feel this would mesh with Blizzard's mentality of family-friendly and also would probably violate quite a few laws here or there as it's not as if the game is only marketed to 21+ year olds.

Is it a neat idea? Yeah. But it doesn't make sense for Blizzard to automate / host it.

They already host WoW tournaments with a buyin, this is not very different.




Closing thoughts

I support Blizzard making money from SC2, I just want it to be from new features that benefit me - not by monetizing things that were once free.

Here's a few more copy-pastes from the old post on this topic:

  • It's obvious some people find the idea of paying to play in tournaments to be unappealing, but I have to ask; what system do you, then, propose? What other feasible way is there of running automated tournaments around the clock?
    Sponsors are not possible/unlikely to be possible simply because the coverage is non-existant, especially in terms of live coverage.

    Sponsors work better for big, scheduled tournaments with plenty of coverage - something we could easily have alongside these pay to play tournaments.

  • The image issue. That is, to some this is going to be percieved as gambling which is bad (I don't think gambling is bad, but I think blizzard wouldn't like being percieved as supporters of gambling).
    I don't actually think it is gambling, as it's a skill game. If you offered 1on1's for money I COULD see the point, but in this case it's just paying to play in a tournament, which happens all the time at LANs.

  • As somebody mentioned, having this work is going to be huge when it comes to advancing the skill of players around the world, as well as the viability of being a professional at this game. Someone mentioned Magic: The Gathering having had these types of tournaments run for a long time online, which is a good example.

  • Another thing I want is the ability to - within the BNet interfac - host your own tournaments; private and public. I'm unsure if you should be able to host p2p (privately hosted) tournaments directly through BNet (I'm not sure it would be feasible) but that's no big deal since as long as the infrastructure for hosting a tournament is there you can deal with payments privately (ie over neteller, paypal or other e-wallets).

    Ok I think that's what I wanted to cover in this, I'll give it a read through to make sure I didn't miss anything.

    Poll: Would you be interested in this?

    Yes, I would play (619)
     
    70%

    No, I would not play (257)
     
    29%

    Yes, but not as described (please elaborate) (14)
     
    2%

    890 total votes

    Your vote: Would you be interested in this?

    (Vote): Yes, I would play
    (Vote): No, I would not play
    (Vote): Yes, but not as described (please elaborate)



  • Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    BigT
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    United States304 Posts
    June 17 2010 23:56 GMT
    #2
    I had this idea also
    Big T
    bas1c
    Profile Joined April 2010
    10 Posts
    June 17 2010 23:58 GMT
    #3
    Would be awesome
    yes
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    June 17 2010 23:59 GMT
    #4
    Of course I completely forgot to discuss rake, edited that in now :p
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    blade55555
    Profile Blog Joined March 2009
    United States17423 Posts
    June 17 2010 23:59 GMT
    #5
    Personally I am for this idea.

    If you don't like it you don't have to play in it simple as that lol.

    I think this would be very awesome just paying a couple bucks playing in a 32 man tournament nothing wrong with it. Too bad blizzard won't ever do this but if they did would be sweet .
    When I think of something else, something will go here
    Smurfz
    Profile Joined May 2008
    United States327 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:00 GMT
    #6
    Wow, this would be great.
    Teddyman
    Profile Joined October 2008
    Finland362 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:00 GMT
    #7
    Biggest obstacle to this: having to take into account the gambling laws of every country and regulate entrance. They would also need a system to pay out winnings. I think MTG Online only gives products and new tournament tickets out as prizes so it works out easier for them.
    "Chess is a dead game" -Bobby Fischer 2004
    pash1k
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Ukraine119 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:02 GMT
    #8
    I really like this idea - especially if the entrance fee is small ($1 or $2). I spend a $1 on much more useless things than a SCII tournament.
    Insert meme here
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:02 GMT
    #9
    On June 18 2010 09:00 Teddyman wrote:
    Biggest obstacle to this: having to take into account the gambling laws of every country and regulate entrance. They would also need a system to pay out winnings. I think MTG Online only gives products and new tournament tickets out as prizes so it works out easier for them.

    I'm curious how the poker world handles this - is there seen to be a difference between contests where chance is involved and ones where it isn't?

    I know Canada (I think it's Canada anyway) can't participate in certain WoW tournaments, but I also know Canadians play poker just fine (tonnes of succesful canadian online poker pros).
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    kineSiS-
    Profile Blog Joined September 2009
    Korea (South)1068 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:06 GMT
    #10
    This would be interesting... but this is also gambling.

    Gambling is described as: Gambling is the of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period.
    Wihl
    Profile Blog Joined June 2010
    Sweden472 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:06 GMT
    #11
    Whats to stop people from creating low-ranking accounts and just farming gold level tournaments though?

    Playing with real money would be cool but to be honest I'd like to see (in addition to money tournaments) 'fantasy monies' being used. With fantasy monies you could get some special avatars, a bigger internet penis, achievements and so on.
    Madkipz
    Profile Blog Joined February 2010
    Norway1643 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:08:30
    June 18 2010 00:06 GMT
    #12
    Starcraft 2 might get precieved as gambling, as much as i might enjoy the idea of money tournaments.

    With the divisions, you could easily make the majority of tournaments closed to a single division
    smurfing, my skill is upper plat, if i do my placements and deliberately loose 5 games, if I auto loose to stay in a lower division i could earn less but still be guaranteed wins. I dont like that idea and think these money things if ever rearing its head:

    Should be Pro league and invite only.
    "Mudkip"
    Backpack
    Profile Blog Joined March 2010
    United States1776 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:07 GMT
    #13
    This...


    is brilliant!


    I don't think it would be considered gambling at all.
    "You people need to just generally care a lot less about everything." -Zatic
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:11:27
    June 18 2010 00:09 GMT
    #14
    On June 18 2010 09:06 Madkipz wrote:
    Starcraft 2 might get precieved as gambling, as much as i might enjoy the idea of money tournaments.

    Show nested quote +
    With the divisions, you could easily make the majority of tournaments closed to a single division
    smurfing, my skill is upper plat, if i do my placements and deliberately loose 5 games, if I auto loose to stay in a lower division i could earn less but still be guaranteed wins. I dont like that idea and think these money things if ever rearing its head:

    Should be Pro league and invite only.

    Then you win one tournament and get moved up immediately. + You have to buy a new account, or were you planning on somehow being progamer level the first time you play the game ?

    On June 18 2010 09:06 Wihl wrote:
    Whats to stop people from creating low-ranking accounts and just farming gold level tournaments though?

    Playing with real money would be cool but to be honest I'd like to see (in addition to money tournaments) 'fantasy monies' being used. With fantasy monies you could get some special avatars, a bigger internet penis, achievements and so on.

    Sure, I think that should be in there too - and I think you should be able to buyin to some of the real money tournaments if you accumulate enough "fantasy money".

    For reference, Pokerstars have so called Frequent Player Points, which you acquire the more you play (and thus... the more you rake, ie pay them). The FPPs can be used to do anything from buy into a tournament, to buy actual items - anything from a t-shirt to a monitor to a car).

    You could easily implement something like that, which would give even players who don't win some kind of reward for just entering.
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    TheAngelofDeath
    Profile Blog Joined May 2010
    United States2033 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:09 GMT
    #15
    I would be into this for sure.
    "Infestors are the suck" - LzGamer
    Djzapz
    Profile Blog Joined August 2009
    Canada10681 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:10 GMT
    #16
    That would be freaking awesome.
    "My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
    RodrigoX
    Profile Joined November 2009
    United States645 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:11 GMT
    #17
    Brilliance. I love it. Good job!

    It does seem like gambling without gambling though. But it has always been like that with entrance fees. Its just not considered gambling I guess.
    We were all raised on televion that made us believe we'd all be Millionairs, Movie gods, and Rockstars..... But we won't.... We are slowly learning that fact. And we are very, very pissed off.
    NuKedUFirst
    Profile Blog Joined March 2010
    Canada3139 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:30:36
    June 18 2010 00:11 GMT
    #18
    On June 18 2010 09:02 FrozenArbiter wrote:

    I know Canada (I think it's Canada anyway) can't participate in certain WoW tournaments, but I also know Canadians play poker just fine (tonnes of succesful canadian online poker pros).


    Edit: See my post on Page 2page 2
    FrostedMiniWeet wrote: I like winning because it validates all the bloody time I waste playing SC2.
    ccJroy
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States483 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:12 GMT
    #19
    I love this idea, i really do since i am an avid poker player (low stakes, recreational player) and personally would be all about having something like this in Bnet.

    Though one problem would be on blizzards end to set up a system to have bank records and deposit/withdrawal information as online poker sites do.

    But with the number of players expecting to buy this game, i dont see why they wouldnt go for something like this and bring in some rake for themselves. Great idea hope you get the ball rolling for a system like this.
    Lol Rly?
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:15 GMT
    #20
    Couldn't they just use the payment system in place for WoW already?
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    ghosthunter
    Profile Blog Joined December 2009
    United States414 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:15 GMT
    #21
    Yeah, as others have commented, I don't feel this would mesh with Blizzard's mentality of family-friendly and also would probably violate quite a few laws here or there as it's not as if the game is only marketed to 21+ year olds.

    Is it a neat idea? Yeah. But it doesn't make sense for Blizzard to automate / host it.
    avilo
    Profile Blog Joined November 2007
    United States4100 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:16 GMT
    #22
    This is a very genius idea FA. Too bad blizzard didn't think of it themselves...oh wait you did for them !

    Would be awesome indeed, as others said though, there is the trickyness of whether it is considered gambling, and whether it is or isn't, what would matter is how it is perceived.

    I like the idea tho
    Sup
    EleanorRIgby
    Profile Joined March 2008
    Canada3923 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:18 GMT
    #23
    absolutely i would be willing to play in these, great for unknown players
    savior did nothing wrong
    Bob300
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States505 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:18 GMT
    #24
    This would be awesome!!! and a lot of players would play, I just think that lower divisions should not be able to make as much money as diamond league tournaments. They should also be cheaper in the lower divisions.
    NYC Suburbs --- College Freshman --- Season 1 - Drone Whiskey
    Backpack
    Profile Blog Joined March 2010
    United States1776 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:20:05
    June 18 2010 00:19 GMT
    #25
    Blizzard hosts an annual WoW Arena Tournament with a $200,000 prize pool. ($20 buy-in)

    I'm sure they could implement this automated system legally.
    "You people need to just generally care a lot less about everything." -Zatic
    Nfinite
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States25 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:20 GMT
    #26
    On June 18 2010 09:06 Wihl wrote:
    Whats to stop people from creating low-ranking accounts and just farming gold level tournaments though?

    Playing with real money would be cool but to be honest I'd like to see (in addition to money tournaments) 'fantasy monies' being used. With fantasy monies you could get some special avatars, a bigger internet penis, achievements and so on.


    The same thing that stops phil hellmuth from sitting down at the .25/.50 tables and taking everyones money, its not worth his time.

    If these real money tournys existed, leagues could not have an effect on where you are placed, if you want in on the real money tourny you would play against anyone else willing to put up the money, and over a short period of time the far better players wouldnt be willing to spend thier time playing in the lower entrance fee tournaments which would effectivly ensure you are playing against people close to your ability... or people who are dumb and are either throwing thier money away or wasting thier own time.
    Tristan
    Profile Blog Joined December 2009
    Canada566 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:25:24
    June 18 2010 00:22 GMT
    #27
    I think this is a genius idea and with that invite only pro league could be a really cool source of really good games to watch.

    There might even be people like those in online poker who somehow make an income by playing tournaments all day but oh well.

    Also as a tournament and not a poker tournament would it really be counted as gambling and not esports?
    http://Zangano431.tumblr.com/
    NuKedUFirst
    Profile Blog Joined March 2010
    Canada3139 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:27:47
    June 18 2010 00:23 GMT
    #28
    On June 18 2010 09:19 Backpack wrote:
    Blizzard hosts an annual WoW Arena Tournament with a $200,000 prize pool. ($20 buy-in)

    I'm sure they could implement this automated system legally.

    Yes, They easily could but some countries (cough Canada cough) have some shitty law(?)

    Edit: WTF? Looked on some thread on the WoW forums..
    Canadian residents are not required to pay an Entry Fee in order to enter. Instead, Canadian residents may enter by submitting a 250 word typewritten essay comparing tournament video gaming in Canada to tournament video gaming in the United States on 8 ½ x 11 inch paper and mailing their essay to Essay Entry for The 2010 North American Blizzard Entertainment Arena Tournament, P.O Box 18979, Irvine, CA 92623. Essay entries must be received no later than April 27, 2010 in order to be eligible. Essay entrants represent and warrant that the essay is their original work and does not infringe the rights of any third party. By entering, essay entrants hereby grant, without further consideration, all right, title and interest in and to their essay to Sponsor.


    Someone replied to this:
    I'm Canadian and did not have to write an essay. That is an option offered to Canadians only if they don't wish to pay the twenty upfront and instead wish to write a short 'essay'.


    Edit2: on another thread:
    Unless you live in Quebec, he said. It's illegal to enter any such contest there. So there you have it, Canucks! You can pay or write an essay as you choose, unless you're in Quebec, in which case your local laws force you to take the role of spectator.


    souce

    Glad im not from quebec
    FrostedMiniWeet wrote: I like winning because it validates all the bloody time I waste playing SC2.
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:27:33
    June 18 2010 00:26 GMT
    #29
    On June 18 2010 09:22 TheElitists wrote:
    I think this is a genius idea and with that invite only pro league could be a really cool source of really good games to watch.

    There might even be people like those in online poker who somehow make an income by playing tournaments all day but oh well.

    I don't see it as feasible to make a living purely from playing tournaments this way, because RTS games don't have a sufficient element of chance.

    The online poker tournaments are profitable because a ton of recreational players are essentially creating a ton of overlay by signing up with little to no chance of winning. Yet, due to the luck element - sometimes they do, or at least they might make it far, or not recognize that they lost because of bad play but rather put it down to luck.

    However, I still think it can be succesful, just not by the same definition.

    Also as a tournament and not a poker tournament would it really be counted as gambling and not esports?

    Not really sure. I wonder what the MTG ones are classified as.
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    Knutzi
    Profile Joined July 2009
    Norway664 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:26 GMT
    #30
    i would love it if something like this would be possible but its one of those things that would be too awesome to ever happen
    bakedace
    Profile Blog Joined March 2010
    United States672 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:29:09
    June 18 2010 00:27 GMT
    #31
    On June 18 2010 09:02 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 09:00 Teddyman wrote:
    Biggest obstacle to this: having to take into account the gambling laws of every country and regulate entrance. They would also need a system to pay out winnings. I think MTG Online only gives products and new tournament tickets out as prizes so it works out easier for them.

    I'm curious how the poker world handles this - is there seen to be a difference between contests where chance is involved and ones where it isn't?

    I know Canada (I think it's Canada anyway) can't participate in certain WoW tournaments, but I also know Canadians play poker just fine (tonnes of succesful canadian online poker pros).


    To put it in perspective there are only a couple poker websites that allow US players to play for real money, legitimately.

    It would be a impossible/daunting task to make smooth and polished transactions; like something you would see in a blizzard game.

    If they could some how get around "gambling" altogether it would work nice. All in all I voted yes. Its a bit different than poker because of they fine lines in skill level. you can put an amateur on the same table with a pro in poker. not the case in sc, obviously.
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 15:31:21
    June 18 2010 00:29 GMT
    #32
    On June 18 2010 09:27 bakedace wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 09:02 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    On June 18 2010 09:00 Teddyman wrote:
    Biggest obstacle to this: having to take into account the gambling laws of every country and regulate entrance. They would also need a system to pay out winnings. I think MTG Online only gives products and new tournament tickets out as prizes so it works out easier for them.

    I'm curious how the poker world handles this - is there seen to be a difference between contests where chance is involved and ones where it isn't?

    I know Canada (I think it's Canada anyway) can't participate in certain WoW tournaments, but I also know Canadians play poker just fine (tonnes of succesful canadian online poker pros).


    To put it in perspective there are only a couple poker websites that allow US players to play for real money.

    It would be a impossible/daunting task to make smooth and polished transactions; like something you would see in a blizzard game.

    If they could some how get around "gambling" altogether it would work nice. All in all I voted yes. Its a bit different than poker because there are very fine lines skill levels. you can put an amateur on the same table with a pro. not the case in sc, obviously.

    Yes but the reason for that is the UIGEA, or the Safe Port Act - aka the dumbest act ever. Prior to 2006, all the worlds gambling sites were open to US customers.

    I don't think Blizzard would be affected by it... But I guess it comes down to the definition of gambling.

    Eitherway, we were talking about Canadians, and they are allowed to play poker on essentially any site in the world (well, not country specific ones I guess)
    Title VIII of the Act is also known as the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 (or UIGEA). This title (found at 31 U.S.C. § 5361–5367) prohibits the transfer of funds from a financial institution to an illegal Internet gambling site, specifically excluding fantasy sports, online lotteries, and horse/harness racing.

    Don't you just love how the horse racing industry/online lotteries are exempt from it? Corruption at its finest.
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    Half
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States2554 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:32 GMT
    #33
    This is certainly the direction the "monetization" of b-net needs to go :p.

    That being said, I question its mass appeal.
    Too Busy to Troll!
    Ndugu
    Profile Blog Joined May 2010
    United States1078 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:32 GMT
    #34
    I love this idea.
    Wargizmo
    Profile Joined March 2010
    Australia1237 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:36 GMT
    #35

    Cool idea, but it would be a legal nightmare. Japan's legal system for example considers computer game tournaments for money a form of gambling, which is illegal over there.

    There would probably be all kinds of logistics and licenses and things Blizzard would have to aquire in order to do online for money tournaments, as well as implementing an entire payment system and support team if there's any problems with people getting their money.

    Excluding tournaments to a specific division wouldn't solve your first concern either, as soon as real money is involved good players would quickly start deliberately losing matches to drop divisions so they could win the newbie tournaments. This would mess up the ladder in addition to screwing over the tournaments.

    I like the idea from a spectator point of view just for the top leagues, but I don't think it would be worth it for Blizzard since the feature would go unused for most players.

    I would, however, like to see automated free tournaments like they were implemented in War3, I think those worked really well. I also really LOVE the idea of the battle.net software allowing players themselves to easily set up and run tournaments.






    Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is best. - Frank Zappa
    BraneSC2
    Profile Joined May 2010
    United States123 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:47:11
    June 18 2010 00:39 GMT
    #36
    This is a great idea. I think actual tournaments implemented into bnet 2.0 would be genius. It'd be a fun way to have competition, other than the ladder. Also a better way to distinguish yourself from everyone else.

    Plus make a little cash if you're good

    .
    I would, however, like to see automated free tournaments like they were implemented in War3, I think those worked really well. I also really LOVE the idea of the battle.net software allowing players themselves to easily set up and run tournaments.

    Also, if cash tournaments fail to be added, then normal tournaments would fit perfectly. Just some sort of tournament system would be beautiful to see.
    No fighting in the war room!
    Talic_Zealot
    Profile Blog Joined February 2010
    688 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:42:41
    June 18 2010 00:40 GMT
    #37
    I totally like the idea. The system pokerstars uses is really smart in my opinion, since it suppotst the players, motivates them and helps the service grow aswell.
    I would be totally up.. for the weekly free roll :D
    There are three types of people in the universe: those who can count, and those who cant.
    merz
    Profile Blog Joined July 2004
    Sweden2760 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:41 GMT
    #38
    This would be fucking awesome for the competitive players out there. I'd easily pay a small buy-in just to get a shot at the #1 prize. Also keeps the motivation to play and get better on top.
    Winners never quit, quitters never win.
    Half
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States2554 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:44:04
    June 18 2010 00:43 GMT
    #39
    I don't see how pay for entry tournaments is impossible, because they have a system set up in WoW.

    However, my guess is it won't be up 24/7. That's absusable, and its also sends a really bad message to any even vaguely family oriented gamer. 24/7 money betting is kind of...sketchy...for Battle.net.

    Too Busy to Troll!
    RumZ
    Profile Blog Joined March 2010
    United States956 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:43 GMT
    #40
    I don't know that they could implement this in the payment system, as they are providing a service for a micro transaction there.

    In this case wouldn't it just be gambling as it has been discussed previously? I think it is, sadly. =\
    Bob300
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States505 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:45:29
    June 18 2010 00:44 GMT
    #41
    If blizzard hosted the betting site outside of the US. It would fine/ Legal, just a bit sketchy.

    Edit: or they could make you buy credits 1 for $1 then use that for tournament and then you win credits, you could then return the credits for your money back???
    NYC Suburbs --- College Freshman --- Season 1 - Drone Whiskey
    StarStruck
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    25339 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:45:34
    June 18 2010 00:45 GMT
    #42
    Blizzard wouldn't be able to add such a feature sadly due to international laws on gambling. This would be illegal in several countries. I like the initiative, but there would be far too many barriers to get such a thing up officially. If you want to host such a tournament, it would have to be under the table.
    Powster
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States650 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:46 GMT
    #43
    I support this 100% lol.. I am not good enough to where I would use it yet.. but I am sure there will be a time where I will want to in the near future when I think I am good enough..

    BUT.. I dont think you should have anything lower than diamond league (or just the pro league) to be allowed. If it was platinum or lower you could lose your placement matches on purpose and then never do any matchmaking and keep winning the tournaments easily..

    And.. they would earn money from it even if not many people are using it. Just by creating the system they will be earning money without any effort after that which is never bad...
    Half
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States2554 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:46 GMT
    #44
    On June 18 2010 09:44 Bob300 wrote:
    If blizzard hosted the betting site outside of the US. It would fine/ Legal, just a bit sketchy.

    Edit: or they could make you buy credits 1 for $1 then use that for tournament and then you win credits, you could then return the credits for your money back???


    They could charge a static monthly fee for unlimited participation.

    That kind of scares me though.
    Too Busy to Troll!
    Sueco
    Profile Joined September 2009
    Sweden283 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:47 GMT
    #45
    I approve of this. Its not gambling more than collecting a tournament fees to buy a trophy cup is.
    Morayfire73
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States298 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:48 GMT
    #46
    I like this idea, however for something as complex as starcraft, having no refs but blizzard could be a problem. Just look at a bunch of tournements where people disconnect, second TL invitational comes to mind, with the game between Artosis, and Slush. If Blizzard were to implement a system like this, they would have no good way to deal with logistical stuff like what happens with a disconnect.

    Just looking at some of the logistical stuff that tournament organizers have to deal with is mind boggling, the system you presented would work, but I don't think any very serious or large prize pools would ever be available due to Blizzards inability to handle the logistical stuff.
    [Insert witty comment here]
    seRapH
    Profile Blog Joined April 2009
    United States9756 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:49 GMT
    #47
    wow, this is a brilliant idea! i really like it!

    i dont like anything related to betting though, it seems like it could ruin esports the way it ruined it in korea
    boomer hands
    NonY
    Profile Blog Joined June 2007
    8748 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 00:51:38
    June 18 2010 00:50 GMT
    #48
    I am 90% in favor of this idea, with the 10% of doubt existing just because I haven't given the idea a whole lot of thought. But my first impression is definitely in favor.

    The best argument for it is it's the only way to have good automated tournaments. You could have automated tournaments without money and they would suck. Prize money is required for good tournaments. Entry fee is the only way I can imagine that automated tournaments can have prize money.

    IMO Blizzard shouldn't take a rake. It's not about the money for me as a player. But I think running this service wouldn't cost them any extra money compared to other services that b.net will be running for free. That's not really my main reason either. Mainly I think it'd just be better for Blizzard and bnet's image to not take a cut.

    Blizzard wants b.net 2.0 to be awesome and the best online experience etc. Providing a service like this for free would be absolutely amazing. Since it's feasible (afaik), I think they should do it!

    ugh I'm not very eloquent when I'm writing in a hurry. I just read over that and I felt like my writing skills just regressed 10 years lol
    "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
    Destro
    Profile Joined September 2009
    Netherlands1206 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:51 GMT
    #49
    .......... and there goes my bank account.
    bring back weapon of choice for hots!
    Bob300
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States505 Posts
    June 18 2010 00:52 GMT
    #50
    On June 18 2010 09:51 Destro wrote:
    .......... and there goes my bank account.

    I completely agree, i would spend so much money on these tournaments lol, then lose.
    NYC Suburbs --- College Freshman --- Season 1 - Drone Whiskey
    ThePanda
    Profile Joined June 2010
    United States1 Post
    June 18 2010 00:52 GMT
    #51
    First off, its gambling and because of the world-wide nature of BNET solving all the legal issues would likely cost a fortune. Blizzard would not only have to comply with gambling laws in the US, but Korea, Europe, etc, but also needs to take into account other countries, like China, which does not permit any type of legal gambling, online or otherwise.

    Even if you limited pay to play to the US, its almost certain that players from other countries would be able to get a hold of the keys and get on the U.S. servers creating any number of legal and game-play issues. Maybe no good U.S. players would play in $1-5 tournaments, but it could be very lucrative for Asian players where the cost of living is lower.
    Elec
    Profile Joined July 2009
    Canada136 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:00 GMT
    #52
    the idea sounds great but i think blizzard will have a lot of trouble implementing this solely basted on the fact that sc2 is rated T for teens. By implementing anything gambling related they are encouraging teens to gamble which i think would give sc2 a bad name
    Yellow Shinny VW beetle with # plate R3AV3R
    Tristan
    Profile Blog Joined December 2009
    Canada566 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:00 GMT
    #53
    On June 18 2010 09:52 ThePanda wrote:
    players would play in $1-5 tournaments, but it could be very lucrative for Asian players where the cost of living is lower.


    Starcraft 2: great game, fun esport, and single handedly improving the economies of the third world, is there anything it can't do?
    http://Zangano431.tumblr.com/
    oBlade
    Profile Blog Joined December 2008
    United States5547 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:01 GMT
    #54
    I feel like a rake would be okay if they reinvested it into prizes for freeroll tournaments in the form of spots for the winners in paid tourneys.

    Closing to divisions immediately brings in the problem of people abusing the ladder just so they can clean out SNGs in lower leagues. Maybe these ought to be diamond/proleague only.
    "I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
    Soap
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    Brazil1546 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:02 GMT
    #55
    Awesome idea. I think the monthly subscription model some poker companies adopted to circunvent UIGEA could be legally viable.
    InfiniteIce
    Profile Blog Joined May 2010
    United States794 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 01:06:37
    June 18 2010 01:02 GMT
    #56
    Really quality writeup.

    Interesting idea, and I really really like it.

    Thanks for opening my mind to this one :D it's something I'd love to see implemented.

    Also:
    On June 18 2010 09:50 Liquid`NonY wrote:
    IMO Blizzard shouldn't take a rake. It's not about the money for me as a player. But I think running this service wouldn't cost them any extra money compared to other services that b.net will be running for free. That's not really my main reason either. Mainly I think it'd just be better for Blizzard and bnet's image to not take a cut.

    I think the rake was more to give Blizzard a theoretical incentive if they were to ever consider this. If they would do it for free, with no cut, then I would be back in love with Blizzard, all over again.
    But given the way things may or may not be heading re: microtransactions, I think they might need some sort of incentive to do this.

    (I am agreeing with you, though. They shouldn't take a rake, but if it was between "Blizz gets a small rake", or "Blizz doesn't do this", I would be in favor of the former, in this case.)
    i keep going back to my response to chill's fake PM and laughing, then immediately getting a feeling that i assume i'd get if i had an orgasm and the girl said "hahaha guess what i have a dick" -FakeSteve
    chuninexam
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Canada56 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 01:09:38
    June 18 2010 01:06 GMT
    #57
    I am a poker player aswell, and I've had this exact same idea. I'd like to see this implemented in SC2 aswell as other new competitive online games.

    There is no detriment to blizzard at all. All they need to do is set up the system and profit. It's completely optional to take part in so it doesn't hurt anyone who doesn't want to take part in it.

    edit

    It was just brought to my intention that this might be hard to implement because of the gambling laws in the USA aswell as various other international gambling laws. This is indeed a problem and probably is enough of a road block for this to not happen at all with SC2.
    HDstarcraft
    Profile Blog Joined May 2009
    United States577 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:06 GMT
    #58
    As an avid poker player myself, I must agree with this idea. Great way to monetize bnet, and appease the competitive crowd.

    However, make sure not to stifle the big name tournaments with this idea. (As FA said, sponsors work best with the big name tournaments.)
    YouTube.com/HDstarcraft
    Noelani
    Profile Joined May 2010
    55 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:11 GMT
    #59
    Man this is an awesome idea... srsly fk the government, cuz as others have said, pointless laws based on the thinking that gambling is "immoral" will prevent blizzard from bothering to tackle the legal nightmare of implementing this amazing idea.
    Rah
    Profile Joined February 2010
    United States973 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:12 GMT
    #60
    Casual online pay to play in tournaments wouldn't be good for Starcraft 2. Not yet anyway. How many online poker players have you heard of using map hacks?
    Streaming on twitch. http://www.twitch.tv/rahsun86
    AlecPyron
    Profile Joined May 2010
    United States131 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:13 GMT
    #61
    This idea is awesome. It would make tourneys Blizzard hosts very meaningful instead of getting an icon or something like that (this would be good for lower divisions). Too bad the gambling laws may make it not possible I guess.
    gobertech
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States11 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:18 GMT
    #62
    What about all the people who would play with hacks to get an unfair advantage? Easy money for them? If this becomes a large part of Bnet2.0 this will be almost impossible to monitor or prevent.
    Thrasymachus725
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Canada527 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 01:26:33
    June 18 2010 01:18 GMT
    #63
    Terrible idea for any number of reasons that you mentioned.
    I suppose it could be optional, but then you NEED to pay money to be someone in the SC community. It also means you need to have a credit card of some sort to play SC2, instantly alienating a chunk of the community.
    You already mentioned that this is esports, not gambling. Making an argument that buying SC2, paying for internet and paying the monthly fee for WoW are equal is just wrong... By paying monthly fee and paying for SC2 as a game, you know that the money you spend is going towards the games development, the developers, the company that made the game and will make future games. Paying a tournament fee that goes towards the winners isn't going directly towards the game. This is not Poker.
    Now I am not saying that this concept is bad... because it would definitely push the game in a positive direction. But to have these things automated, running all the time and and having tiny prize pools is wrong for the direction of the game.

    As has been said, eSports really should be about gaining money, not losing money. This would ONLY work if the game SC2 was free itself, like these poker sites.

    The wrong people would be attracted to the game...
    The game would be about money and not about entertainment
    The image would be broken. The game would need to go up from T to M or AO.
    If you want this game to be a serious spectator sport it should be supported by the spectators. When do football players pool their money together at the beginning of the series? It should be about sponsorship and spectating primarily. Some websites could run things like this just fine, occasional tournies would be cool and such, but Blizz should not implement this as part of their game or in Battle.net 2.0 or anything.

    I think the biggest thing I don't understand about this poll tho... is how people can support Blizzard earning money here? People scream and whine and bitch every time there is any possibility of the game being monotized... premium maps for example. Seems pretty hypocritical of you people to hate the concept of Blizzard earning money, then support this idea...
    The meaning of life is to fight.
    Teddyman
    Profile Joined October 2008
    Finland362 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:19 GMT
    #64
    You could also have a big preliminary round with a buy-in of $2 and play a swiss style tournament to determine a final bracket. This scales to any amount of players the prizes just get bigger the more people sign up. WC3 tournaments work this way (without the money), here is the schedule for one. It does take over 5 hours overall though, most players are of course eliminated after the 2 hour preliminary. The downside is that the matches really require a time limit (30 min in WC3) and winners will be determined by some method when that is reached. It's also bo1 single elimination which might not be the most balanced format, but playing enough of these babies should level the luck out.

    Some payouts randomly pulled out of my ass:
    8-player single elimination, $5 buy-in: 1st place $28, 2nd place $12
    150 player swiss rounds + single elimination, $2 buy-in: 1st place $120, 2nd place $60, Ro4 $20, Ro8 $10, Ro16 $5
    "Chess is a dead game" -Bobby Fischer 2004
    starcraft911
    Profile Blog Joined July 2008
    Korea (South)1263 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:22 GMT
    #65
    I think it's a neat idea, but I don't see how it's necessary. Before the beta came down there were plenty of cash prize tourneys that didn't require you to buy in. Sponsors covered that and it was good. I don't see anything wrong with the current system so why meddle with it?

    That's not to say I wouldn't do it. I'm fairly confident I'd make money in the long run if this were implamented so I'm all for it, but I don't think it's needed.

    Also the "automated" part has me worried. When WC3 had the automated tourney system I played vs many of the top koreans in the tournaments and several times I couldn't connect with them and I would recieve free wins or losses. Sometimes it wouldn't even attempt to connect us and since it's automated the system isn't regularly checked for errors like this. They would have to have a person oversee it especially if $$ is involved. Would suck to lose in the finals w/ out actually playing because the game failed to host and default winned the other guy (this happened in WC3 a lot)
    febreze
    Profile Joined April 2010
    167 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:22 GMT
    #66
    I don't necessarily agree that it should be automated and handled by Blizzard. This opens up a whole can of worms in terms of legal considerations, security, anti-hacking & scamming support etc. Money attracts all types, and at the moment, i don't think Blizzard can handle it on the public bnet.

    I can see this being incorporated in the special tournament bnet they mentioned earlier.
    Beauty in truth, deception with dogma, meaning through life.
    Thrasymachus725
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Canada527 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:23 GMT
    #67
    Also...
    Balance:
    Poker: 52 Cards. Same cards for each player. Randomized. Balanced
    SC2: Any tiny imbalance wrecks everything. Losses can be blamed on balance issues, easy modes etc etc.

    Cheating:
    Poker: Unhackable. You don't need to send packets of info to other players because things like replays are unnecessary and players don't need to share info.
    SC2: Hackable. There will always be hacks.
    The meaning of life is to fight.
    raph
    Profile Joined May 2010
    United States204 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 01:31:48
    June 18 2010 01:25 GMT
    #68
    great idea, very enlightening

    i think that you could have an anti hack loaded up, play some preliminary rounds and then start the tournament, then dont allow the players to restart the game at all during the tournaments so itd detect if something in the game itself changed. not sure if this is perfect but it seems like a start
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 01:27:45
    June 18 2010 01:25 GMT
    #69
    On June 18 2010 09:45 StarStruck wrote:
    Blizzard wouldn't be able to add such a feature sadly due to international laws on gambling. This would be illegal in several countries. I like the initiative, but there would be far too many barriers to get such a thing up officially. If you want to host such a tournament, it would have to be under the table.

    Anyone from said country would just not be able to join those tournaments.

    On June 18 2010 09:48 Morayfire73 wrote:
    I like this idea, however for something as complex as starcraft, having no refs but blizzard could be a problem. Just look at a bunch of tournements where people disconnect, second TL invitational comes to mind, with the game between Artosis, and Slush. If Blizzard were to implement a system like this, they would have no good way to deal with logistical stuff like what happens with a disconnect.

    Just looking at some of the logistical stuff that tournament organizers have to deal with is mind boggling, the system you presented would work, but I don't think any very serious or large prize pools would ever be available due to Blizzards inability to handle the logistical stuff.

    If it's an automated system, admins will only be needed when something goes wrong, I think it would be managable.

    On June 18 2010 09:49 majesty.k)seRapH wrote:
    wow, this is a brilliant idea! i really like it!

    i dont like anything related to betting though, it seems like it could ruin esports the way it ruined it in korea

    Betting only ruined it because it's illegal there and thus unregulated. Regulated betting is good.
    However, this isn't betting.

    I would be in favour of betting too, but this isn't it
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    Teddyman
    Profile Joined October 2008
    Finland362 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:26 GMT
    #70
    On June 18 2010 10:23 Zanez.smarty wrote:
    SC2: Any tiny imbalance wrecks everything. Losses can be blamed on balance issues, easy modes etc etc.

    You can just ban Artosis and Idra from attending.
    "Chess is a dead game" -Bobby Fischer 2004
    chuninexam
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Canada56 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:27 GMT
    #71
    On June 18 2010 10:23 Zanez.smarty wrote:
    Also...
    Balance:
    Poker: 52 Cards. Same cards for each player. Randomized. Balanced
    SC2: Any tiny imbalance wrecks everything. Losses can be blamed on balance issues, easy modes etc etc.

    Cheating:
    Poker: Unhackable. You don't need to send packets of info to other players because things like replays are unnecessary and players don't need to share info.
    SC2: Hackable. There will always be hacks.


    Good points. These points alone - especially the cheating - are good enough reasons that this can never be implemented.

    It's unfortunate that there are hacks for sc2 =/
    Thrasymachus725
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Canada527 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 01:28:44
    June 18 2010 01:27 GMT
    #72
    On June 18 2010 10:25 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 09:45 StarStruck wrote:
    Blizzard wouldn't be able to add such a feature sadly due to international laws on gambling. This would be illegal in several countries. I like the initiative, but there would be far too many barriers to get such a thing up officially. If you want to host such a tournament, it would have to be under the table.

    Anyone from said country would just not be able to join those tournaments.




    BAM instant alienation and regional imbalance, legal issues (people ignoring the countries laws, bypassing the boundaries, etc etc).
    The meaning of life is to fight.
    xtfftc
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    United Kingdom2343 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:29 GMT
    #73
    I wouldn't play but I don't mind Blizzard making money in this way. What I am concerned about is Activision's (and generally most corporation CEO's) business philosophy of making as much money as possible from all possible aspects of the game. The idea FrozenArbiter describes sounds sensible and practical for sustained growth, which is great... We just have to wait and see, I guess.
    SouL)R(MizaR
    Profile Joined October 2009
    Australia111 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 01:32:05
    June 18 2010 01:30 GMT
    #74
    A great idea. Unfortunatly ballancing this would be a nightmare simply allowing only gold players to enter tournies would not work, as people could purposely create accounts and lose every game placing them into bronze. Then play money tournies and rape them over and over and pocket a nice amount.
    The best way to this ballance would be to have a new ranking for money tourneies and you are promoted on your win percentage.

    Hackers:
    unless they have zero tollerence to hacking on thier servers then i doubt anyone would risk playing in these tournies
    www.izhere.webs.com Starcraft 2 Clan Website
    PokePill
    Profile Blog Joined March 2009
    United States1048 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 01:32:11
    June 18 2010 01:30 GMT
    #75
    I'm almost positive if someone other than a moderator posted this, the responses would be completely different.

    Then there's the fact you say Starcraft 2 is a "skill" game and there's very little luck, that only promotes the idea that no one would want to play competitively. Professional players will dominate all tiers of play and the money will always trickle down to the elite players, as in not a single US player would get a stable income from this because all the elite euro and asian players who train 8 hours a day with teams will destroy and feed off of the inferior US players.

    Blizzard wants to monetize their platform by targeting casual gamers, casual gamers are not going to be playing ladder at all down the road because of how extremely competitive the 1v1 ladder already is in their eyes, and they are definitely not going to want to gamble money to have no chance of beating people who "train" all day. There will be NO ONE using this, even after it is initially a success and people are using it.

    The lower tier competitive gamers will never win and they will stop playing because they will be embarassed by their winrates and lack of success and they will be burning money so they will be forced to quit. Do you think if any of the US/Euro tournaments required a sign up fee that a more than negligible amount of people would participate? Imagine if that micro/macro tournament cost $20 to enter and had a larger prize pool. Do you think even teams like Root or VT would participate? They probably would but after constantly losing to superior US/Euro/Asia players they would probably abandon the game all together very quickly, since there will be no more free tournaments and they would have no chance of getting past a line up of massively better players.

    This would destroy the game, for both eSports and casual gamers. Fortunately this would absolutely never happen.
    goswser
    Profile Blog Joined May 2009
    United States3519 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:32 GMT
    #76
    If you could win 30+ dollars from a copper/bronze/silver tournament I feel like high level players would find some way of getting into these lower level tournaments. Besides purposely wanting to start low so they can win as many as possible, borrowing friends accounts, hacking so it looks like your low level, or buying multiple copies of the game if you are sure of your success could be problems. Other than that, unlike in poker, starcraft is a game of skill, not luck, and although some players might do this at first, I feel like the group of high level starcraft players would dominate tournaments consistently to an extent that other people would feel like they have no chance at winning and stop participating after a while, which would also basically be true.
    say you were born into a jungle indian tribe where food was scarce...would you run around from teepee to teepee stealing meat scraps after a day lazying around doing nothing except warming urself by a fire that you didn't even make yourself? -rekrul
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 01:34:26
    June 18 2010 01:32 GMT
    #77
    On June 18 2010 10:18 Zanez.smarty wrote:
    Terrible idea for any number of reasons that you mentioned.
    I suppose it could be optional, but then you NEED to pay money to be someone in the SC community. It also means you need to have a credit card of some sort to play SC2, instantly alienating a chunk of the community.

    World of Warcraft.

    Also, it wouldn't be the only form of tournaments, the big tournaments would be the same as the ones now - the weeklies, the invitationals, OSL/MSL/TSL/HDH type events.

    Think about it, a 16 man 1$ tournament is gonna have a first place prize of 8$ - that's hardly going to make headlines.


    You already mentioned that this is esports, not gambling. Making an argument that buying SC2, paying for internet and paying the monthly fee for WoW are equal is just wrong... By paying monthly fee and paying for SC2 as a game, you know that the money you spend is going towards the games development, the developers, the company that made the game and will make future games. Paying a tournament fee that goes towards the winners isn't going directly towards the game. This is not Poker.

    You are paying for entertainment. A part of the fee would go to Blizzard. I do not see the problem.

    Now I am not saying that this concept is bad... because it would definitely push the game in a positive direction. But to have these things automated, running all the time and and having tiny prize pools is wrong for the direction of the game.

    As has been said, eSports really should be about gaining money, not losing money. This would ONLY work if the game SC2 was free itself, like these poker sites.

    You are losing money by buying the game... You are losing money everytime you pay for another month of WoW. Again, I don't see the problem.

    The wrong people would be attracted to the game...

    Majority of todays succesful online poker players are 19-20~somethings in college.


    The game would be about money and not about entertainment

    No, it would be about both - and this is entirely optional.

    The image would be broken. The game would need to go up from T to M or AO.

    Why? It isn't gambling.

    If you want this game to be a serious spectator sport it should be supported by the spectators. When do football players pool their money together at the beginning of the series? It should be about sponsorship and spectating primarily. Some websites could run things like this just fine, occasional tournies would be cool and such, but Blizz should not implement this as part of their game or in Battle.net 2.0 or anything.

    Why? There are tonnes of tournaments with entry fees in ANY sport.


    I think the biggest thing I don't understand about this poll tho... is how people can support Blizzard earning money here? People scream and whine and bitch every time there is any possibility of the game being monotized... premium maps for example. Seems pretty hypocritical of you people to hate the concept of Blizzard earning money, then support this idea...

    Because they are providing a service I want, and I recognize that it costs them money to do so.

    Providing cross region play? Does not cost them.

    Then there's the fact you say Starcraft 2 is a "skill" game and there's very little luck, that only promotes the idea that no one would want to play competitively. Professional players will dominate all tiers of play and the money will always trickle down to the elite players, as in not a single US player would get a stable income from this because all the elite euro and asian players who train 8 hours a day with teams will destroy and feed off of the inferior US players.

    Blizzard wants to monetize their platform by targeting casual gamers, casual gamers are not going to be playing ladder at all down the road because of how extremely competitive the 1v1 ladder already is in their eyes, and they are definitely not going to want to gamble money to have no chance of beating people who "train" all day. There will be NO ONE using this, even after it is initially a success and people are using it.

    If you read my post, you would see the suggestion for the tournaments to be tied into your division. You are a bronze player? You'll play Bronze tournaments.
    You are a platinum player? You'll play platinum tournaments.
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    Thrasymachus725
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Canada527 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:33 GMT
    #78
    Now don't get me wrong guys, this concept is GREAT for a third party kind of thing. Blizzard would obviously need to allow for licensing and legalization of this, and if they did, I would not only be supportive, but I would partake.
    It would NEED to be third party though, so you could put in a contract style thing that informs people of the risks and says you can't blame losses on anyone but yourself, you are responsible for your own money, has IP restrictions and other such things. Frozen Arbiter, its your idea, get Blizzards permission to run it on TeamLiquid
    The meaning of life is to fight.
    Evoke
    Profile Joined April 2010
    New Zealand50 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:33 GMT
    #79
    if Blizzard says it's only for people from countryX and someone from another country obtains a copy and uses a tunnel to get into it, Blizzard doesn't break any laws, the person is. I don't think it'd be a problem in that respect.

    I really like the idea. However, the concern I have is that the game is not turn based - when you disconnect from pokerstars during the tournament, you come back and might still be in the game, having folded a few hands. Whereas each game of SC2 is equivalent to Head-to-Head in poker, you're not playing 9 other people, you're playing one after another until you can beat them. You also don't get a chance to benefit off some chumps in the earlier rounds of the competition by sitting out and watching them go bust because you have to beat whoever you're given.

    But in saying that, it can just be a normal double elimination or single elimination tournament with an entry fee, with pre-determined disconnect rules that don't require a human review such as "if no losses were encountered by either party, or the dc happens within the first 2 minutes" or whatever.. That could work, but it wouldn't be quite like pokerstars.
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 01:40:34
    June 18 2010 01:35 GMT
    #80
    On June 18 2010 10:23 Zanez.smarty wrote:
    Also...
    Balance:
    Poker: 52 Cards. Same cards for each player. Randomized. Balanced
    SC2: Any tiny imbalance wrecks everything. Losses can be blamed on balance issues, easy modes etc etc.

    Who cares if someone blames a loss on imbalance? People blame losses in poker on luck all the time - same shit.

    Cheating:
    Poker: Unhackable. You don't need to send packets of info to other players because things like replays are unnecessary and players don't need to share info.
    SC2: Hackable. There will always be hacks.

    Read up on the AbsolutePoker super user scandal.

    Yes, there'll always be hacks - I don't care, there'll always be people using steroids in sports. Should we stop all sports?

    On June 18 2010 10:27 Zanez.smarty wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 10:25 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    On June 18 2010 09:45 StarStruck wrote:
    Blizzard wouldn't be able to add such a feature sadly due to international laws on gambling. This would be illegal in several countries. I like the initiative, but there would be far too many barriers to get such a thing up officially. If you want to host such a tournament, it would have to be under the table.

    Anyone from said country would just not be able to join those tournaments.




    BAM instant alienation and regional imbalance, legal issues (people ignoring the countries laws, bypassing the boundaries, etc etc).

    What alienation? First of all, it has not been established whether this would be considered gambling.
    Second, I don't think it's blizzards problem if people break the law as long as they don't condone it.

    On June 18 2010 10:30 SouL)R(MizaR wrote:
    A great idea. Unfortunatly ballancing this would be a nightmare simply allowing only gold players to enter tournies would not work, as people could purposely create accounts and lose every game placing them into bronze. Then play money tournies and rape them over and over and pocket a nice amount.
    The best way to this ballance would be to have a new ranking for money tourneies and you are promoted on your win percentage.

    I already addressed this - if you win a/X amount of bronze tourneys, you get moved up.
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    PokePill
    Profile Blog Joined March 2009
    United States1048 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:37 GMT
    #81

    If you read my post, you would see the suggestion for the tournaments to be tied into your division. You are a bronze player? You'll play Bronze tournaments.
    You are a platinum player? You'll play platinum tournaments.


    Anyone who wants to play competitively will not be below diamond league. Casual gamers do not want to gamble money on a video game. To them it is not an esport, it is a game to play solely for fun. No one would be playing tournaments for money at that skill level, and like I also said in my post, even the mid tier US players would stop playing tournaments once they realize the reality of their situations and skill levels in comparison to professional players.
    c.Deadly
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States545 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 01:48:11
    June 18 2010 01:39 GMT
    #82
    I think that a system like this has too much potential for abuse - smurfs, hackers, etc. It would be frustrating for honest players and the last thing I want is the SC2 ladder to become farcical. I love the idea though, I just think incentivizing automated tournaments with money has insurmountable problems (beyond gambling laws). Imagine the headache Blizzard would have if there were hackers, smurfs, and teams winning countless automated tournaments. No amount of profit from the rake would be worth the time and effort spent quelling motivated hackers and cheaters.

    Instead, make the tournaments free to play with prizes other than money - perhaps points that contribute to eligibility for an end-of-ladder-season tournament, where cash and other prizes are offered to the winners. Just no achievements, please.

    EDIT: An entire page of posts popped up while I was sorting out my thoughts. I just want to clarify that I'm all for tournaments with a buy-in, they're a perfect fit for the competitive nature of SC2. They would just have to be scarce (by that I mean once or twice a week) and reserved for only the top players. That kind of implementation would leave the least problems for Blizz and the community and still have the benefits for competitive players. And like other posters have said, casual players really wouldn't want to play in a tournament with a buy-in anyway.
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 01:43:22
    June 18 2010 01:42 GMT
    #83
    The lower tier competitive gamers will never win and they will stop playing because they will be embarassed by their winrates and lack of success and they will be burning money so they will be forced to quit. Do you think if any of the US/Euro tournaments required a sign up fee that a more than negligible amount of people would participate? Imagine if that micro/macro tournament cost $20 to enter and had a larger prize pool. Do you think even teams like Root or VT would participate? They probably would but after constantly losing to superior US/Euro/Asia players they would probably abandon the game all together very quickly, since there will be no more free tournaments and they would have no chance of getting past a line up of massively better players.

    Which is why my example buyins weren't 20$ but 1$ or 2$.

    On June 18 2010 10:39 c.Deadly wrote:
    I think that a system like this has too much potential for abuse - smurfs, hackers, etc. It would be frustrating for honest players and the last thing I want is the SC2 ladder to become farcical. I love the idea though, I just think incentivizing automated tournaments with money has insurmountable problems (beyond gambling laws). Imagine the headache Blizzard would have if there were hackers, smurfs, and teams winning countless automated tournaments. No amount of profit from the rake would be worth the time and effort spent quelling motivated hackers and cheaters.

    Instead, make the tournaments free to play with prizes other than money - perhaps points that contribute to eligibility for an end-of-ladder-season tournament, where cash and other prizes are offered to the winners. Just no achievements, please.

    This sounds ok as well, but then they don't make any money from it :<
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    goswser
    Profile Blog Joined May 2009
    United States3519 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:42 GMT
    #84
    I just don't feel like there will be any incentive for people to play in these after a while, at first sure, before the reality that they are incredibly disadvantaged compared to their opponents sinks in. In poker its different, if you play ten hands with a poker pro you can probably get lucky enough to win at least 2, but if your a mid-high ranking diamond player someone like FrozenArbiter (Jinro) could destroy you in TvT for instance ten times in a row pretty easily.
    say you were born into a jungle indian tribe where food was scarce...would you run around from teepee to teepee stealing meat scraps after a day lazying around doing nothing except warming urself by a fire that you didn't even make yourself? -rekrul
    kzn
    Profile Blog Joined June 2007
    United States1218 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:43 GMT
    #85
    On June 18 2010 08:48 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    Do you want it to be like Formula 1 where people have to buy a seat in a car?
    Otherwise, it's not just a zero sum game. You mention a rake. People are going to lose money overall from playing Starcraft 2. That's bad. There should be money to be won. Not money to be lost.


    People are going to lose money overall from playing SC2 no matter what you do, short of making the game free.
    People lose money from WoW overall.
    People lose money from having an internet connection overall.


    On top of this, the fact that a given game is zero-sum does not require that nobody makes money off of it, only that the totality of the money entering the game does not exceed the totality exiting it.

    The majority of people who pay to enter these tournaments will lose money, but this does not mean nobody will be able to make money off of this.
    Like a G6
    jamesr12
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    United States1549 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:45 GMT
    #86
    I dont like the idea, just because I think it would make hacks more common. With money on the line people will try to cheat and there will be more hackers, inside and outside of these tourneys effectivly ruinning the game. Also the best players would almost always win, not enough luck. Sure you could break it by divsion but then people smurf and what about low diamond players they have no chance against high diamond players. Sit in go's are great but leave them in poker where they belong
    http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306479
    Thrasymachus725
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Canada527 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:46 GMT
    #87
    On June 18 2010 10:30 PokePill wrote:
    I'm almost positive if someone other than a moderator posted this, the responses would be completely different.

    I was thinking that too... Suddenly people support Blizzard monetizing their game... wow the world went upside down.

    On June 18 2010 10:32 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 10:18 Zanez.smarty wrote:
    Terrible idea for any number of reasons that you mentioned.
    I suppose it could be optional, but then you NEED to pay money to be someone in the SC community. It also means you need to have a credit card of some sort to play SC2, instantly alienating a chunk of the community.

    World of Warcraft.

    Also, it wouldn't be the only form of tournaments, the big tournaments would be the same as the ones now - the weeklies, the invitationals, OSL/MSL/TSL/HDH type events.

    Think about it, a 16 man 1$ tournament is gonna have a first place prize of 8$ - that's hardly going to make headlines.

    Show nested quote +

    You already mentioned that this is esports, not gambling. Making an argument that buying SC2, paying for internet and paying the monthly fee for WoW are equal is just wrong... By paying monthly fee and paying for SC2 as a game, you know that the money you spend is going towards the games development, the developers, the company that made the game and will make future games. Paying a tournament fee that goes towards the winners isn't going directly towards the game. This is not Poker.

    You are paying for entertainment. A part of the fee would go to Blizzard. I do not see the problem.

    Show nested quote +
    Now I am not saying that this concept is bad... because it would definitely push the game in a positive direction. But to have these things automated, running all the time and and having tiny prize pools is wrong for the direction of the game.

    As has been said, eSports really should be about gaining money, not losing money. This would ONLY work if the game SC2 was free itself, like these poker sites.

    You are losing money by buying the game... You are losing money everytime you pay for another month of WoW. Again, I don't see the problem.

    Show nested quote +
    The wrong people would be attracted to the game...

    Majority of todays succesful online poker players are 19-20~somethings in college.

    Show nested quote +

    The game would be about money and not about entertainment

    No, it would be about both - and this is entirely optional.
    Show nested quote +

    The image would be broken. The game would need to go up from T to M or AO.

    Why? It isn't gambling.
    Show nested quote +

    If you want this game to be a serious spectator sport it should be supported by the spectators. When do football players pool their money together at the beginning of the series? It should be about sponsorship and spectating primarily. Some websites could run things like this just fine, occasional tournies would be cool and such, but Blizz should not implement this as part of their game or in Battle.net 2.0 or anything.

    Why? There are tonnes of tournaments with entry fees in ANY sport.

    Show nested quote +

    I think the biggest thing I don't understand about this poll tho... is how people can support Blizzard earning money here? People scream and whine and bitch every time there is any possibility of the game being monotized... premium maps for example. Seems pretty hypocritical of you people to hate the concept of Blizzard earning money, then support this idea...

    Because they are providing a service I want, and I recognize that it costs them money to do so.

    Providing cross region play? Does not cost them.

    Show nested quote +
    Then there's the fact you say Starcraft 2 is a "skill" game and there's very little luck, that only promotes the idea that no one would want to play competitively. Professional players will dominate all tiers of play and the money will always trickle down to the elite players, as in not a single US player would get a stable income from this because all the elite euro and asian players who train 8 hours a day with teams will destroy and feed off of the inferior US players.

    Blizzard wants to monetize their platform by targeting casual gamers, casual gamers are not going to be playing ladder at all down the road because of how extremely competitive the 1v1 ladder already is in their eyes, and they are definitely not going to want to gamble money to have no chance of beating people who "train" all day. There will be NO ONE using this, even after it is initially a success and people are using it.

    If you read my post, you would see the suggestion for the tournaments to be tied into your division. You are a bronze player? You'll play Bronze tournaments.
    You are a platinum player? You'll play platinum tournaments.



    As I said, Paying for the game is not remotely similar to "losing money". When I pay for a product I know that the money I pay is going to the retailer, the shippers and the company that made the game. World of Warcraft subscription fee goes towards the development for the game... as does the money for my copy of SC2... To say that is similar to this system (in which money goes to the guy who clobbered my ass) is wrong on so many levels.
    The amount of money won or lost really is not a matter of debate... Any small amount will "Make Headlines"
    There are indeed tons of sports with entry fees in every sport... but they are not put on by things such as the NFL... or the NHL or anything. They are all very small events and anything that people "pool money" together at the beginning is considered a "bet". SC2 shouldn't be about betting. Blizz owns the rights to this game and everything it does... it could and SHOULD allow this kind of thing to occur... but it should not make it itself... and DEFINITELY not until a TON of details are worked out. As it stands, good players could and would invariably work their way into the lower leagues in order to win easy money. There would be no way you could have a fair Bronze Tournament, because every time there would be a Diamond Level player there... someone logging on a Bronze account, or someone who somehow threw their games to get there.
    The meaning of life is to fight.
    knyttym
    Profile Blog Joined December 2006
    United States5797 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:47 GMT
    #88
    This would be the funnest thing ever. Constant money running through sc2 would bring an even larger crowd then their already is.
    PokePill
    Profile Blog Joined March 2009
    United States1048 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:51 GMT
    #89

    Which is why my example buyins weren't 20$ but 1$ or 2$.



    The amount of money is irrelevant. If $2 is so low that professionals won't bottomfeed (which isn't the case, they sludge through 8 hours of zotac cups for a shot at $100), you will have the second tier of pros bottomfeeding, or the semipros bottomfeeding. In a perfect world, where you can play against players EXACTLY your skill level and who aren't cheating, it's possible people wouldn't mind gambling $1 or $2 to play. The fact of the matter is, that that is an impossibility. It won't work.
    Kaal
    Profile Blog Joined May 2010
    Djibouti2514 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:53 GMT
    #90
    I'm not sure people are understanding what Arb hasn't said. Sure, overall, the larger better rated players will win the money. But the larger, better players aren't going to win tiny fifty cent 18 man gold tournaments. They won't even bother. It's the same thing with poker, if you go on pokerstars or fulltilt, you don't see Mike the Mouth at a 5 cent sit and go, or even a 1 dollar 2800 man tournament. The majority of people who play in those tournaments, ARENT GOOD AT POKER AT ALL, they just want to play because the money makes the game more competitive, it has more energy, excitement, emotion overall, most of the time they know they're not going to win, and are dissapointed if they lose, but overall they come back to the game with more of a fervor to be better, to be smarter, and to win. I think if that kind of attitude were brought to starcraft two, it would not only pique more interest, albeit not much, but it would make the skill level of the game skyrocket. Hacks, etc, aren't going to be much of an issue if the game is run from B.Nets server, since most hacks in SC1 were p2p, you were allowing the hacker to send information and take information from your computer with no security at all. If the carrier of the signal sent to the server is too big on bnets end, they're going to know there's a hack. If you monitor your bandwidth use on starcraft 2, there's a basic constant baudrate that flows through, no matter what's happening. Just my two cents.
    Synwave
    Profile Joined July 2009
    United States2803 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:54 GMT
    #91
    As long as I can play cross realm with friends and chat without being nickel and dimed for it (ie microtransactions to "unlock" aspects of online play that used to be free) I could care less how blizzard monetizes tournaments.
    I think your ideas FA are very legitimate and well put. I wouldn't mind seeing this sort of thing on bnet so long as there were fun free stuff included for those of us that don't view our gaming experience as something to gamble money on.
    And it is gambling, where the connection of gambling with games of chance got made I haven't the foggiest, chance and gambling have nothing in common.
    Betting on the outcome of an event = gambling, regardless of the chance or skill level involved.
    ♞Nerdrage is the cause of global warming♞
    Subversion
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    South Africa3627 Posts
    June 18 2010 01:58 GMT
    #92
    Haha this is an awesome idea.

    But online gambling is illegal in US, so would be interesting to see whether this is counted as "gambling" or not. It is, after all, a game of skill - but so is poker.
    PokePill
    Profile Blog Joined March 2009
    United States1048 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 01:59:48
    June 18 2010 01:59 GMT
    #93
    On June 18 2010 10:53 Kaal wrote:
    I'm not sure people are understanding what Arb hasn't said. Sure, overall, the larger better rated players will win the money. But the larger, better players aren't going to win tiny fifty cent 18 man gold tournaments. They won't even bother. It's the same thing with poker, if you go on pokerstars or fulltilt, you don't see Mike the Mouth at a 5 cent sit and go, or even a 1 dollar 2800 man tournament. The majority of people who play in those tournaments, ARENT GOOD AT POKER AT ALL, they just want to play because the money makes the game more competitive, it has more energy, excitement, emotion overall, most of the time they know they're not going to win, and are dissapointed if they lose, but overall they come back to the game with more of a fervor to be better, to be smarter, and to win. I think if that kind of attitude were brought to starcraft two, it would not only pique more interest, albeit not much, but it would make the skill level of the game skyrocket. Hacks, etc, aren't going to be much of an issue if the game is run from B.Nets server, since most hacks in SC1 were p2p, you were allowing the hacker to send information and take information from your computer with no security at all. If the carrier of the signal sent to the server is too big on bnets end, they're going to know there's a hack. If you monitor your bandwidth use on starcraft 2, there's a basic constant baudrate that flows through, no matter what's happening. Just my two cents.


    I think this is a bad argument.

    Fish play poker because they DON'T KNOW that they are going to be losing money in the long run. They think they are purely gambling and want that big score. Fish play poker because they believe it is entirely luck and there is only a marginal aspect of skill and they always have a chance.

    Yes, the better players aren't going to be playing low stakes but what you have is a legion of TwoPlusTwo.com posters grinding out the micro stakes stealing all the money from the fish so they can donate it to low stakes players when they move up and so on. The fish keep playing because they think they have a run of bad luck.

    Casual gamers know there are people that play video games all day and aren't playing for competition, they are playing for fun. They are not stupid enough to gamble for something they know they are not going to win at, and the one's that do will quickly learn their lesson.
    StarStruck
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    25339 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:01:12
    June 18 2010 01:59 GMT
    #94
    There are other fundamental problems of abusing the system as well. It would be impossible to regulate and governments will be all over it. Such a system would take ages to implement. Sorry, I just don't see it happening anytime soon. You could ban the players from the said countries where it isn't legal. Surely they will find ways around it. You still face a big problem in government intervention and regulation. Hackers would have huge incentive to crack such a thing as well.
    jamesr12
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    United States1549 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:00 GMT
    #95
    On June 18 2010 10:53 Kaal wrote:
    I'm not sure people are understanding what Arb hasn't said. Sure, overall, the larger better rated players will win the money. But the larger, better players aren't going to win tiny fifty cent 18 man gold tournaments. They won't even bother. It's the same thing with poker, if you go on pokerstars or fulltilt, you don't see Mike the Mouth at a 5 cent sit and go, or even a 1 dollar 2800 man tournament. The majority of people who play in those tournaments, ARENT GOOD AT POKER AT ALL, they just want to play because the money makes the game more competitive, it has more energy, excitement, emotion overall, most of the time they know they're not going to win, and are dissapointed if they lose, but overall they come back to the game with more of a fervor to be better, to be smarter, and to win. I think if that kind of attitude were brought to starcraft two, it would not only pique more interest, albeit not much, but it would make the skill level of the game skyrocket. Hacks, etc, aren't going to be much of an issue if the game is run from B.Nets server, since most hacks in SC1 were p2p, you were allowing the hacker to send information and take information from your computer with no security at all. If the carrier of the signal sent to the server is too big on bnets end, they're going to know there's a hack. If you monitor your bandwidth use on starcraft 2, there's a basic constant baudrate that flows through, no matter what's happening. Just my two cents.



    Its not the same as poker because there is so much more skill and less luck involved in SC2. Say I am Idra, White Ra, QXC, whoever, I play around with it for awhile find the highest level where I win 90% of tourneys and just play at that level forever and just roll in the cash. If Mike the Mouth joins a 1$ 18 person tourney i put his odds at 25% max. People at that level of poker just play so stupid it is so much luck. That is why pro players dont play in in those low level tournies. Also unless blizzard is going to be hosting some like 200 dollar buy in the Idras of the world are going to be play in whats there... the same 5 dollar buy in


    I dont know why we are even talking about this... It will never happen just for legal reason
    http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306479
    DGMavn
    Profile Blog Joined November 2009
    United States48 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:06:17
    June 18 2010 02:01 GMT
    #96
    My first thought is that because of the nature of the pay-to-win tourney model, even if, say, United States laws rule that this sort of setup is not gambling, the ESRB might not agree. I doubt Blizzard would run the risk of having the parent-police ESRB jacking up their rating to AO just to make some money off of SnG's.

    My second thought: the only real way to equalize the playing field is to hold tourneys at different money levels ($1, $5, $20). If you provide the same prize for winning a bronze-level tourney as you would for winning a plat-level tourney, then the system could be abused by creating new accounts. Given a sufficiently difficult bracket, it becomes a much better idea to shell out $60 for a new account if it increases your prospects of winning exponentially. The only way to protect the lesser players is to make playing against them unprofitable (or have less expected value).

    My final thought is: my friend in law school agrees that putting money on the outcome of a game (be it a game of skill or chance) is gambling. Period. The US probably won't like that as a result.
    "Combat, your penis is full of shit!" - Day[9]
    StarStruck
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    25339 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:02 GMT
    #97
    FA already acknowledged the different buy-ins. It is gambling and in many places it would get shutdown without going through the proper process, i.e. gaming commissions and the like.
    Kaal
    Profile Blog Joined May 2010
    Djibouti2514 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:03 GMT
    #98
    Oh. another thing. The problem is, this kind of thing might not be entirely legal in the US of A, so I think Blizzard, being an american company, might choose to forgo any thought at this kind of thing.
    c.Deadly
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States545 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:05 GMT
    #99
    On June 18 2010 10:42 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    This sounds ok as well, but then they don't make any money from it :<


    Assuming you mean Blizzard - they also wouldn't have to put as much money into the infrastructure, secure exchange of money, and troubleshooting billing issues. I edited my post to reflect that I'm all for buy-in tournaments, just as long as they're not automated like you described, and not on such a huge scale.

    Automated tournaments would be cool too, I just feel they need a different incentive.
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:12:02
    June 18 2010 02:09 GMT
    #100
    On June 18 2010 11:03 Kaal wrote:
    Oh. another thing. The problem is, this kind of thing might not be entirely legal in the US of A, so I think Blizzard, being an american company, might choose to forgo any thought at this kind of thing.

    We'd have to find out how other games do it then, I can't imagine there aren't any pay-to-play chess tournaments or MTG tournaments around.

    I think fantasy sports were written out of the ban specifically because they argued it was a game of skill - we'll see, I don't really know enough about the legality of it all.

    My final thought is: my friend in law school agrees that putting money on the outcome of a game (be it a game of skill or chance) is gambling. Period. The US probably won't like that as a result.

    Maybe I'm naive, but shouldn't there be a distinction between paying to play and actively betting on a game?

    I.E If I play a bet-game vs someone for 50$, then I'd consider it gambling.
    If I pay 50$ to play at a LAN tournament, 40$ of that money going to the prize pool and the rest to the organizer, I don't consider that gambling.

    Would it legally be gambling? How does it work for all the countless LAN events/small tournaments that charge for this, are they simply too small for anyone to care about?
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    nEAnS
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Canada161 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:09 GMT
    #101
    I think this is a great idea, however i dont think blizzard would ever implement this idea just because it seems that it would be a hassle for them.
    chuninexam
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Canada56 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:12 GMT
    #102
    On June 18 2010 10:35 FrozenArbiter wrote:

    Read up on the AbsolutePoker super user scandal.out and use them against you. I don't think I need to explain to you how powerful of a tool a map hack is.

    As of now, since were in beta, these map hacks havent been too much of a problem I've only run into a few cases I knew for sure someone was using them a

    Yes, there'll always be hacks - I don't care, there'll always be people using steroids in sports. Should we stop all sports?


    That's a little different. The Absolute Poker scandal was a case where high level administrators were using super privledged accounts to cheat. This is not something that any averege person can acheive. You, me, or nearly everyone on the planet except for those who work at the highest levels of these respective poker sites can cheat in this way.

    The difference is in SC2 anyone and their grandmother can take a few minutes to download a map hack and whatever other hacks will come out in the future and use them against you. Since it's beta I haven't had much of a problem with map hackers yet, I've only encountered a few cases where I knew for sure they were map hacking against me. Also cause there is nothing on the line people don't care as much to abuse this.

    But as soon as you put money on the line and implement this system basically everyone will get map hacks and you will be at a critical disadvantage without them. The entire "sit and go sc2 ladder" or whatever you wanna call it will be littered with map hackers to the degree that non map hackers won't even be able to compete.

    Just as in poker, in sc2 people will be looking for every edge they can get. There is not enough honor and morality in this world, and people will be abusing hacks to the degree that I just described.

    It's silly to ignore this distinction between the 2 completely different levels of cheating that occur in online poker and sc2.
    Kexx
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Germany240 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:15 GMT
    #103
    The idea in general is awesome, though my biggest concern as you already mentioned is good people farming the tournaments on lower leagues. So I think the appeal for good players to play in lower league tournaments would have to be taken away, the only way I can see that happening would be to drastically reduce the entrance fees on bronze - gold leagues to like 1/10 or even 1/20 of a platinum and diamond league entry.

    This way newer players wouldn't mind experimenting with those tournaments but it stills gives an accomplishment if you win one.
    It would drive you to get better and advance in a higher league to compete with more money, instead of trying to stay in a lower league just to get easy wins.

    overall I like it.
    chooooch
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:20:39
    June 18 2010 02:20 GMT
    #104
    It's silly to ignore this distinction between the 2 completely different levels of cheating that occur in online poker and sc2.

    You are of course right. I'm not sure what can be done about it tho, having not seen whatever Blizzard's final solution for anti-hack will be.

    I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of surrendering a competitive idea just because a good % of human beings are scum tho However, with the 1 account/1 cd key policy, it will at least be more costly whenever you are caught.
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    Kaal
    Profile Blog Joined May 2010
    Djibouti2514 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:21 GMT
    #105
    Well. I mean, at chess clubs sometimes we play for money, and there are some pretty high $$$ amounts exchanged at fighting game tournaments. Like a 29k dollar MvC2 money match at Seasons Beatings last year. And fighting game tournaments tend to be illegal, but overlooked, since we're a small, elitist group of people. The few that are sponsered usually go through legal channels. The thing with chess tournaments, is that the USCF, or the International Federation, sponsers almost every tournament there is, and they have a gaming liscense. I've never seen an illegal chess tournament, even in NYC, there's a federation for the smaller tournaments they have there. I think the problem is that this would be an advertised feature, and I think it would have alot of trouble in the US, where internet gambling is a hot issue. Add to that, there's probably going to be alot of teens playing this game, and the gambling age in the US is 18, so there'll be alot of crap about little kids gambling and blah blah. I can see how blizzard wouldn't even think about it. Sad really, it's a great idea.
    Licmyobelisk
    Profile Blog Joined August 2008
    Philippines3682 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:28:47
    June 18 2010 02:25 GMT
    #106
    Very great idea! Anyway, it's not really gambling if it's a tournament which ask for an entrance fee. Lets say it's a pot money to whoever is the best gets the prize. for me Gambling for me is that, there is no qualifiers, no legit organizers then you just bet your own money to each other then play 1v1 or 2v2.
    I don't think I've ever wished my opponent good luck prior to a game. When I play, I play to win. I hope every opponent I ever have is cursed with fucking terrible luck. I hope they're stuck playing underneath a stepladder with a black cat in attendance a
    Kexx
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Germany240 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:26 GMT
    #107
    Oh by the way, you asked you MGT:O does it.

    MTG:O sells tournament tickets, they cost 1$ each and a tournament usually costs one tournament ticket.
    When you win a tournament you don't win any money, just booster packs,cards or more tournament tickets, so it can't be considered gambling.

    But the tournament tickets are the commong currency in MTG:O you buy and sell cards for tournament tickets so it's as much worth as money in MTG:O.

    But this system only makes sense in a game like MTG:O where you can buy stuff with the fake currency you win, SC2 doesn't have anything like that.
    chooooch
    DGMavn
    Profile Blog Joined November 2009
    United States48 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:27 GMT
    #108
    On June 18 2010 11:12 chuninexam wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 10:35 FrozenArbiter wrote:

    Read up on the AbsolutePoker super user scandal.out and use them against you. I don't think I need to explain to you how powerful of a tool a map hack is.

    As of now, since were in beta, these map hacks havent been too much of a problem I've only run into a few cases I knew for sure someone was using them a

    Yes, there'll always be hacks - I don't care, there'll always be people using steroids in sports. Should we stop all sports?


    That's a little different. The Absolute Poker scandal was a case where high level administrators were using super privledged accounts to cheat. This is not something that any averege person can acheive. You, me, or nearly everyone on the planet except for those who work at the highest levels of these respective poker sites can cheat in this way.

    The difference is in SC2 anyone and their grandmother can take a few minutes to download a map hack and whatever other hacks will come out in the future and use them against you. Since it's beta I haven't had much of a problem with map hackers yet, I've only encountered a few cases where I knew for sure they were map hacking against me. Also cause there is nothing on the line people don't care as much to abuse this.

    But as soon as you put money on the line and implement this system basically everyone will get map hacks and you will be at a critical disadvantage without them. The entire "sit and go sc2 ladder" or whatever you wanna call it will be littered with map hackers to the degree that non map hackers won't even be able to compete.

    Just as in poker, in sc2 people will be looking for every edge they can get. There is not enough honor and morality in this world, and people will be abusing hacks to the degree that I just described.

    It's silly to ignore this distinction between the 2 completely different levels of cheating that occur in online poker and sc2.


    SC hacks are easy to get because there's no money involved for your grandma. As soon as you introduce any significant cash flow into automated SC2 tournament play, these hacks are worth money (and hence become more scarce).

    Also super-users aren't the only people who have successfully 'hacked' online gambling. There was at least one site whose random number generator was predictable and some guy wrote a program that could tell you what cards everyone was getting after observing your hole cards and community cards over several hands.
    "Combat, your penis is full of shit!" - Day[9]
    Solomoth
    Profile Joined February 2010
    United States55 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:28 GMT
    #109
    I personally don't like the idea largely due to the luck element that is missing in SC as compared to poker. In SC a better player will virtually always win vs a weaker player. If these tourneys are held in the lower divisions, it would be really easy for a gold player to call up his diamond friend and say "Hey, here's my password I'll split the winnings with you when you win."

    Many of you are saying, "Well the buy ins for diamond tourneys will be higher than the buy ins for Gold, so a high level diamond player would not want to play such a low stakes tourney." I don't think this rationality works because unlike high level poker players, high level SC players might not necessarily have a big bank account and just because you are #1 in your diamond league doesn't mean you would want to risk $100 to play in a tourney. The same can be said about the lower divisions. You could be in Silver and be making 6 figures at your day job and a $0.05 tourney would be meaningless. I also think with money on the line players would be more inclined to use hacks.

    I think having pay to play SNG like tourneys is a bad idea, maybe with exception to the invite only Pro League if Blizzard actually creates one.
    Friend, "Do it for the Zorg!" Me, "It's Zerg not Zorg!" My friend trying to psyche me out in a game of beer pong.
    vesicular
    Profile Blog Joined March 2010
    United States1310 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:30 GMT
    #110
    On June 18 2010 08:48 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    With all the - generally negative - talk about micro transactions that exists today, I was once again reminded of how the Poker industry manages to essentially charge you for every tournament you play, every hand you win, and yet nobody minds.


    Well, to be fair, poker is gambling. The entire game revolves around it. Constantly putting in money is built into the game from the start. That's not exactly the same with a video game.

    That said, it's an interesting idea.
    STX Fighting!
    Poyo
    Profile Joined June 2010
    Canada790 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:32 GMT
    #111
    Fantastic idea, I fully support this and if theres anything I could do to help you spread this idea let me know.
    Poyo! poyo! poyo! poyo! poyo!
    Saturnize
    Profile Blog Joined November 2009
    United States2473 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:36 GMT
    #112
    I love this idea
    "Time to put the mustard on the hotdog. -_-"
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:44:51
    June 18 2010 02:42 GMT
    #113
    On June 18 2010 11:26 Kexx wrote:
    Oh by the way, you asked you MGT:O does it.

    MTG:O sells tournament tickets, they cost 1$ each and a tournament usually costs one tournament ticket.
    When you win a tournament you don't win any money, just booster packs,cards or more tournament tickets, so it can't be considered gambling.

    But the tournament tickets are the commong currency in MTG:O you buy and sell cards for tournament tickets so it's as much worth as money in MTG:O.

    But this system only makes sense in a game like MTG:O where you can buy stuff with the fake currency you win, SC2 doesn't have anything like that.

    Hm, what if you won things like Blizzard store credits, and said credits could be exchanged for cash ;p?

    Oh well that's probably too obvious.

    Meh, I can see it's going to be problematic legally - too bad.

    On June 18 2010 11:27 DGMavn wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 11:12 chuninexam wrote:
    On June 18 2010 10:35 FrozenArbiter wrote:

    Read up on the AbsolutePoker super user scandal.out and use them against you. I don't think I need to explain to you how powerful of a tool a map hack is.

    As of now, since were in beta, these map hacks havent been too much of a problem I've only run into a few cases I knew for sure someone was using them a

    Yes, there'll always be hacks - I don't care, there'll always be people using steroids in sports. Should we stop all sports?


    That's a little different. The Absolute Poker scandal was a case where high level administrators were using super privledged accounts to cheat. This is not something that any averege person can acheive. You, me, or nearly everyone on the planet except for those who work at the highest levels of these respective poker sites can cheat in this way.

    The difference is in SC2 anyone and their grandmother can take a few minutes to download a map hack and whatever other hacks will come out in the future and use them against you. Since it's beta I haven't had much of a problem with map hackers yet, I've only encountered a few cases where I knew for sure they were map hacking against me. Also cause there is nothing on the line people don't care as much to abuse this.

    But as soon as you put money on the line and implement this system basically everyone will get map hacks and you will be at a critical disadvantage without them. The entire "sit and go sc2 ladder" or whatever you wanna call it will be littered with map hackers to the degree that non map hackers won't even be able to compete.

    Just as in poker, in sc2 people will be looking for every edge they can get. There is not enough honor and morality in this world, and people will be abusing hacks to the degree that I just described.

    It's silly to ignore this distinction between the 2 completely different levels of cheating that occur in online poker and sc2.


    SC hacks are easy to get because there's no money involved for your grandma. As soon as you introduce any significant cash flow into automated SC2 tournament play, these hacks are worth money (and hence become more scarce).

    Also super-users aren't the only people who have successfully 'hacked' online gambling. There was at least one site whose random number generator was predictable and some guy wrote a program that could tell you what cards everyone was getting after observing your hole cards and community cards over several hands.

    Mm, you're going to have to come up with a source for that second one... The only two big cheating scandals I'm aware of were on AbsolutePoker and Ultimatebet.
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    MLG_Wiggin
    Profile Blog Joined March 2010
    United States767 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:42 GMT
    #114
    I think this would be great, so long as a very robust anti-hacking system was in place. It'd be interesting to see how it plays out, especially for someone like me. I'm a diamond player, sure, but I'm no Idra or Sen. Would the pro's dominate by each winning their own tournament? I know if I was a pro, I'd just hop in on whatever little tournament like this that none of the others were on to make sure I win.
    @DBWiggin, SC2 ref
    jamesr12
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    United States1549 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:48 GMT
    #115
    I think hes talking about poker stars, a few people claimed they have broken the random number generator for that site, but there has never been any proof
    http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306479
    chuninexam
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Canada56 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:51:56
    June 18 2010 02:50 GMT
    #116
    On June 18 2010 11:27 DGMavn wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 11:12 chuninexam wrote:
    On June 18 2010 10:35 FrozenArbiter wrote:

    Read up on the AbsolutePoker super user scandal.out and use them against you. I don't think I need to explain to you how powerful of a tool a map hack is.

    As of now, since were in beta, these map hacks havent been too much of a problem I've only run into a few cases I knew for sure someone was using them a

    Yes, there'll always be hacks - I don't care, there'll always be people using steroids in sports. Should we stop all sports?


    That's a little different. The Absolute Poker scandal was a case where high level administrators were using super privledged accounts to cheat. This is not something that any averege person can acheive. You, me, or nearly everyone on the planet except for those who work at the highest levels of these respective poker sites can cheat in this way.

    The difference is in SC2 anyone and their grandmother can take a few minutes to download a map hack and whatever other hacks will come out in the future and use them against you. Since it's beta I haven't had much of a problem with map hackers yet, I've only encountered a few cases where I knew for sure they were map hacking against me. Also cause there is nothing on the line people don't care as much to abuse this.

    But as soon as you put money on the line and implement this system basically everyone will get map hacks and you will be at a critical disadvantage without them. The entire "sit and go sc2 ladder" or whatever you wanna call it will be littered with map hackers to the degree that non map hackers won't even be able to compete.

    Just as in poker, in sc2 people will be looking for every edge they can get. There is not enough honor and morality in this world, and people will be abusing hacks to the degree that I just described.

    It's silly to ignore this distinction between the 2 completely different levels of cheating that occur in online poker and sc2.


    SC hacks are easy to get because there's no money involved for your grandma. As soon as you introduce any significant cash flow into automated SC2 tournament play, these hacks are worth money (and hence become more scarce).

    Also super-users aren't the only people who have successfully 'hacked' online gambling. There was at least one site whose random number generator was predictable and some guy wrote a program that could tell you what cards everyone was getting after observing your hole cards and community cards over several hands.


    1.SC hacks are very easy to create. Even if there is money involved and some people might start charging for their hacks. There is a large enough hack/mod community that people will create hacks, simply as projects, out of hobby alone and provide them for free. No doubt about it. In addition - nothing can stop anyone from simply pirating these hacks.

    2. If that's even true - that's just another special circumstance and an isolated case that isn't comparable to the widespread, easy to use hacks of SC.

    Please don't ignore the clear distinctions in the levels of cheating between the 2 games when making arguments...
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:51 GMT
    #117
    On June 18 2010 11:48 jamesr12 wrote:
    I think hes talking about poker stars, a few people claimed they have broken the random number generator for that site, but there has never been any proof

    I'm reasonably confident that anyone claiming that is wrong Why you'd let anyone know about it instead of winning all the monies is something we don't even need to go into =p

    There are A LOT of delusional people in the poker community, lots of good people but a lot of crackpots as well.
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    Patches
    Profile Joined May 2010
    United States43 Posts
    June 18 2010 02:55 GMT
    #118
    Very interesting & well laid out idea.. I think every single bit of it's success would fully rely on near perfected implementation.

    If this could be done in such a way that players entering the tournament felt they had a real fighters chance of finding some success it would turn out to be a hell of a lot of fun.

    Of course Blizzard would have to invest a lot more man hours on catching and preventing abuse but that's where the rake would come in I reckon.

    Figuring out how to make it work amidst its obstacles in terms of functionality and implementation would if nothing else make for a really good brain storming session.

    Underground Blizz team please post notes..."The people must know!" (:
    Soap
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    Brazil1546 Posts
    June 18 2010 03:45 GMT
    #119
    If its easy to hack, how does iccup exist? Because its easy to hack but even easier to detect hacks.

    Nothing can be easier than to seat at a poker sit-and-go with a friend and share the profits. It doesnt ruin the game because you wont be able to cashout any meaningful amount without having your account checked, your funds confiscated and such clever enterprise becoming a waste of time plus the money deposited to start playing. Can't see how it can't work the same way with SC2.

    And ffs, gambling = playing a game of chance for money. If it was just "playing for money" any sports professional would be a gambler.
    MenacingVitamin
    Profile Joined May 2010
    United States50 Posts
    June 18 2010 03:49 GMT
    #120
    On June 18 2010 09:09 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 09:06 Madkipz wrote:
    Starcraft 2 might get precieved as gambling, as much as i might enjoy the idea of money tournaments.

    With the divisions, you could easily make the majority of tournaments closed to a single division
    smurfing, my skill is upper plat, if i do my placements and deliberately loose 5 games, if I auto loose to stay in a lower division i could earn less but still be guaranteed wins. I dont like that idea and think these money things if ever rearing its head:

    Should be Pro league and invite only.

    Then you win one tournament and get moved up immediately. + You have to buy a new account, or were you planning on somehow being progamer level the first time you play the game ?


    Just a thought I had when I read this...

    What if the take from tournaments far exceeded the cost of a new account? With a high success rate and low overall overhead, this could still be easy to abuse...?
    Alou
    Profile Blog Joined March 2010
    United States3748 Posts
    June 18 2010 03:52 GMT
    #121
    Be cool, but I doubt it would be like poker. Maybe once in a while.
    Life is Good.
    ImSkeptical
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    Australia51 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 04:11:04
    June 18 2010 04:09 GMT
    #122
    Though there is controversy around the monetization of such a system, would everyone agree if it was for play money? Or for psr or even a seperate ranking system.

    I don't know if it would be viable, for maybe the maintenence of such a system would be too high for blizzard not to charge, but a sit n go system for abstract points I cannot see anyone objecting to. I personally would even go as far to subscribe for a monthly fee for the use of some kind of sit n go tourney system, just because tournaments encourage that greater level of skill and are simply much more fun then ladder play. If I could go home, run through a tournament or two in my afternoon, that would just be frekin awesome. Not meaning to hijack your awesome thread Jinro, but out of personal curiosity i'm going to insert an obnoxious poll.

    Poll: Would you play Play Money Sit n Go's?

    for a subscription fee (for maintenance) (11)
     
    61%

    only if free (7)
     
    39%

    18 total votes

    Your vote: Would you play Play Money Sit n Go's?

    (Vote): for a subscription fee (for maintenance)
    (Vote): only if free





    EG is a great example
    deL
    Profile Blog Joined March 2009
    Australia5540 Posts
    June 18 2010 04:24 GMT
    #123
    Yer I think everyone has had similar ideas, and I don't see a problem with it especially if it makes them add some tournament infrastructure to bnet2! I wouldn't like to see HEAPS of these tournaments so that people just play in them constantly though - don't want them to take over the community and sponsored tourneys.
    Gaming videos for fun ~ http://www.youtube.com/user/WijLopenLos
    Kegs.aus
    Profile Joined March 2010
    Australia133 Posts
    June 18 2010 04:27 GMT
    #124
    This would be seen as gambling....

    theyd need to do a p2p or this wont happen....18+ issues etc.
    pzea469
    Profile Blog Joined September 2008
    United States1520 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 04:36:40
    June 18 2010 04:36 GMT
    #125
    YES!!! my full support
    Kill the Deathball
    Twinweapon
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States90 Posts
    June 18 2010 04:43 GMT
    #126
    I'm sure there is a better way to organize tournaments that are automatic. I haven't had the time to think of any because I just read this, but give me some time and I am sure I can figure out a better way for free automatic tournaments and automatic sit n' go tournaments.
    Hyp-The-Feared
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States108 Posts
    June 18 2010 04:44 GMT
    #127
    sit n go's are def possible as long as blizzard doesnt take a rake. if they take a rake then it is illegal in the usa. Anyway to get around it is shady as hell and i doubt blizzard would want to risk having the gov't on their ass.

    third party websites like virgingaming.com is an option where gamers can bet against themselves.. but currently only for console.
    The-Feared
    tec27
    Profile Blog Joined June 2004
    United States3696 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 05:24:08
    June 18 2010 05:16 GMT
    #128
    I highly support this idea, just as I did when you first posted it. A couple responses to a lot of the posts in this thread though:

    First, a lot of you are complaining that it would have legal difficulties in the US because it could be construed as gambling. While this is a possibility, Virgin recently opened up a site to do direct betting on games/tournaments you participate in: http://virgingaming.com/ . This means that they likely spent a lot of time looking into this issue and decided that they were in the clear, which bodes well for Blizzard should they decide to do something similar for SC2. Also, the reason poker is still a gray area is because it lacks a lot of mainstream support, and very few people have knowledge of whether or not it is mostly skill or mostly luck. It also occupies the same realm as a lot of other definite luck games (casinos), so it has that negative association preventing it from being easily legalized. Video games, while certainly not having an entirely positive connotation, have much more widespread support and it is generally much easier for people to accept that they are largely skill based (well, given the right games; obviously some games are mostly luck).

    The other big issue mentioned in here is hacking. I must agree, hacking is a large thing to consider when you start introducing money prizes and tournaments that do not require direct admin supervision. There's one thing that has been thrown around in this thread to demonstrate that hacking would not be that big of an issue, and I feel the ways in which it is incorrect must be brought to light before we can properly dispel the issue:

    "Theory": ICCup has very few problems with hackers, thus preventing/detecting hacking is not that big of an issue.
    - ICCup has very few issues with hackers largely because they have created an environment in which no hacker really desires to compete. There is no real prize for being at the top of the ladder, and hell, most hackers probably couldn't even get that high WITH hacking, so they especially have very little incentive. If there were incentives, the hacks would definitely be out there, and it would not be all that hard to create them. This can be seen by previous releases of ICCup hacks that happened largely because one of the better hack programmers got angry at someone who makes anti-hacks. In short, ICCup's lack of a big problem with hackers does not in any way indicate that SC2 automated tourneys would not.

    Now that we have that out of the way, I do think hacking is not as big of an issue as it might seem initially. This is because of things Blizzard could do to better combat hacking if they had more resources. Since these tournaments would likely take a rake, Blizzard would have a stream of income with which to reinvest in maintaining the tournaments. This would likely involve them hiring admins and moderators to handle both disputes and claims of hacking. We can look at the poker world to see how well this works. I think the example of AbsolutePoker is a bit far out there for SC2; the situation is quite different from anything that could arise from SC2 hacking. I think a better example is how PokerStars deals with botting and collusion.

    I'm sure you all understand what botting involves, but some of you might not understand what collusion is. Collusion is essentially 2 or more players sitting at the same table/same tournament and helping one another. This might mean they softplay each other, they might raise other people out of hands together, etc. In short, they are using the fact that they have planned a strategy together to beat unknowing people, which is obviously unethical and considered cheating. This is very similar to maphacking because it is not necessarily easy for players in the game to see on the outset. If PokerStars notices suspicious behavior, or a player reports someone for suspicious behavior, their hand histories (eg. replays in SC2) are looked over for foul play, and if found, they are banned. Players are then refunded for the equity they lost by those players colluding/cheating. This system works quite well, especially considering the more random nature of poker. Given this, I would think that the vast majority of the less sophisticated hackers would be caught and banned. As an added bonus, this automated tournament system would act as a sort of honeypot for them, and we would probably be dealing with much fewer hackers in regular ladder games

    Sophisticated hackers are definitely more of a problem, but they are also fewer and far between. There have been demonstrations of hacks for BW that merely read client data and display it in a completely external program, allowing for pretty much undetectable complete maphacks. This is a little more difficult with SC2, because all the memory moves around between each game, so it cannot be statically referenced like in BW. It is likely/certainly still possible to do by reading packets, but this is a much more complex method. Even so, prior to a lot of the anti-hacks and things we now have for BW, there were ways of detecting maphackers by actions they took to counter things they could not see. Given enough incidents of this behavior, one could be very sure someone was hacking, and given that it involves money, I think this would be enough evidence to at least ban them from playing in automated/money tournaments. Blizzard would have to be careful to not ban people without enough evidence though, obviously, but this is very similar to how botting/collusion detection works at PokerStars, and they have a very, very good track record with making the right decisions in these cases.


    Edit: A thought arose shortly after posting and rereading a few posts here: This system does not necessarily need to be developed/handled by Blizzard. It would certainly be easier if it were, because they could build things into the client to automatically move people into the right games and such, but it is definitely possible for outside people to make it happen. The main thing preventing that from happening is having access to game result. If Blizzard were to make an API available to developers that would allow them to access match results, players could enter tournaments on a separate website/client and merely join games and play with the right people, then the site could automatically pick up their match results as they came in and advance the correct people in the tournament. This would be very, very similar to how VirginGaming seems to work. The main issue with a 3rd party approach is gaining trust of players, and how to prevent hacks (which is a more difficult issue when you don't directly control the game client and the game's antihack stuff).

    Edit2:
    On June 18 2010 13:44 Hyp-The-Feared wrote:
    sit n go's are def possible as long as blizzard doesnt take a rake. if they take a rake then it is illegal in the usa. Anyway to get around it is shady as hell and i doubt blizzard would want to risk having the gov't on their ass.

    I believe this depends on the state, as can be seen in VirginGaming's Terms and Conditions:
    Additional Information for US Citizens and Residents The laws governing contests, tournaments and skilled gaming with entry fees and/or prizes are established by each individual state, not by the federal government. As such, Virgin Gaming CAN NOT, and therefore DOES NOT, offer fee-based tournaments or games with prizes to residents of the following states: Arizona, Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Iowa, Louisiana, Maryland, Montana, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee and Vermont. VOID WHERE PROHIBITED OR RESTRICTED BY LAW. If you open an account and/or participate in any tournament or game offered on the Site while located in a prohibited jurisdiction, you will be in violation of the law of such jurisdiction and these T&Cs, and subject to having your account suspended or terminated and all winnings (if any) voided.
    Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
    One.two
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Canada116 Posts
    June 18 2010 05:25 GMT
    #129
    I really like this but it's too good to be true IMO... can't believe no one in the gaming world has implemented this yet (by gaming I mean video games). Great idea Arbiter and I think this is just an awesome and cool idea. Would it affect the T rating though?
    SC2 Editor tutorials: http://www.youtube.com/onetwosc
    Eyesclosed
    Profile Joined June 2010
    19 Posts
    June 18 2010 05:29 GMT
    #130
    Being able to hold your own tournament as a game feature would be amazing, but yeah; it's probably too good to be true looking at things right now. Can't tell until release though.
    jacen
    Profile Blog Joined April 2004
    Austria3644 Posts
    June 18 2010 06:13 GMT
    #131
    On June 18 2010 10:32 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    Why? It isn't gambling.


    We all may know that, but computergames are viewed as luck-based by almost all governments in the world. Here in Austria you would have NO chance of getting through with this, as they even forbid running lan cafes that let you play videogames because you would pay to play a game == gambling for our government.

    There have been several movements in the past to further TIGHTEN these laws in the past years. I have a hard time imagining that blizzard would be able to provide buy-in tourneys on bnet here in Austria ... sadly.
    (micronesia) lol we aren't going to just permban you (micronesia) "we" excludes Jinro
    rK
    Profile Joined September 2002
    United States371 Posts
    June 18 2010 06:26 GMT
    #132
    On June 18 2010 10:11 Noelani wrote:
    Man this is an awesome idea... srsly fk the government, cuz as others have said, pointless laws based on the thinking that gambling is "immoral" will prevent blizzard from bothering to tackle the legal nightmare of implementing this amazing idea.


    The gambling laws in the US generate $80-100 billion a year for the government (this doesn't count online gambling). Do you really believe those laws are in place because of moral reasons?


    I think these kinds of tournies for SC2 would be sweet, but I can't see it realistically happening.
    bobhund
    Profile Joined March 2010
    Sweden364 Posts
    June 18 2010 06:32 GMT
    #133
    Guessing that blizzard will take a cut from each game, but it would be a fun feature. Awesome post Jinro! Kärlek! <3
    Editor in chief at Rakaka.se
    VTArlock
    Profile Blog Joined December 2009
    United States1763 Posts
    June 18 2010 06:41 GMT
    #134
    I would play in this all day every day!
    Why?
    Bio-Leera
    Profile Joined May 2010
    United States65 Posts
    June 18 2010 07:02 GMT
    #135
    I don't post often but I played warcraft 3 a lot before starcraft 2. In Warcraft 3 on the battle.net servers they held automated tournaments 3 times weekly at least. They were sometimes sponsored by a random company, like AT&T or just sponsored by blizzard themselves. There was a qualifying time maybe like 2 hours of playing against tourney entries and then whoever has the best record gets dropped into a 16 bracket.

    Now I know this isn't like the instantaneous tournaments that you were talking about While endless amounts of tournaments sounds nice, I could see myself getting carried away with it and burning a hole in my pocket.

    My main point and i read through the entire thread and still didn't see anyone bring it up, I guess 'cause not many people played wc3 here, but blizzard did automated tournements before for free. Like you said I don't mind paying but I don't want to pay for something that was offered for free before.

    In my head it works like this... the top 3, or whatever number, ranked players from each division get dropped in a huge bracket for the entire league. This will cover that problem poeple had of being in divisions but not knowing who was truly the best. if there was league wide tourneys, which I assume there will be, you would really know who was the best. Hell I might even watch for the results from those tourneys.

    I'm sure your idea sounded awesome coming from like sc1, but to me it sounded like what they've been doing in wc3 for years now (3 years at the least) and then putting a price tag on it.

    If there are any chances of extra money costs, it would be like what they did in WoW. There would be a separate server that you paid 10 more a month to play on. On that server you play against the best of the best in arena, and could also have any item you wanted. Top teams would then get to go the official blizzard tournament.

    So in sc2 there would be like the "Pro ID" that you pay monthly for that lets you on to a global server or something, and access to all those lan latency tourneys which i think are going to be more common than people think.

    alright I'm done rambling, just thought I bring up this point.

    TheFinalWord
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Australia790 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 07:13:08
    June 18 2010 07:09 GMT
    #136
    Wouldn't it be possible for people to lose ladder games on purpose to go down to copper, win tournaments up to plat then repeat? I think this could only work with a different placement system with tournaments. Ie leagues for tournaments based on your preformance in tournaments and then the regular ranking system for preformance in ladder games.
    Edit: I don't see this working at all, at least in the lower skill levels. Impossible to keep fair.
    robopork
    Profile Blog Joined May 2009
    United States511 Posts
    June 18 2010 07:37 GMT
    #137
    Bio-Leera basically said what I wanted to. Except the pro id stuff.

    Paying to play automated tournaments is letting blizzard charge for something that should be included in the $180 we're all expect to shell out for this game. They should get good money for good games. Pay as you go gaming can be seen as good business, or a way of sucking more money out of the committed fans. In reality, it's probably both.

    If they do it, I'll probably pay. Doesn't make them not shit-heads for implementing it.

    Again, Blizzard should and will get payed a lot of money for this game. If you think about it, we'll be paying full price for the two expansions, so they're already charging us for stuff we already have so we can get the few additions.

    If the gaming industry needs to charge more to be functional and lucrative, fine. There isn't a law that says a game can be $60 and no more. Charge more, but do it up front so you don't end up squeezing the lunch money out of your fans.
    “This left me alone to solve the coffee problem - a sort of catch-22, as in order to think straight I need caffeine, and in order to make that happen I need to think straight.”
    StarMasterX
    Profile Joined February 2010
    United States113 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 07:43:18
    June 18 2010 07:42 GMT
    #138
    I haven't read the whole thread yet, so this has probably already been posted, but this would be impossible. There are far too many legal issues with it that Blizzard will not want to deal with. Remember, the only reason poker sites still operate is because they aren't located in the US. Not to mention they have no way to verify ages etc.
    Longshank
    Profile Joined March 2010
    1648 Posts
    June 18 2010 07:48 GMT
    #139
    On June 18 2010 16:09 TheFinalWord wrote:
    Wouldn't it be possible for people to lose ladder games on purpose to go down to copper, win tournaments up to plat then repeat? I think this could only work with a different placement system with tournaments. Ie leagues for tournaments based on your preformance in tournaments and then the regular ranking system for preformance in ladder games.
    Edit: I don't see this working at all, at least in the lower skill levels. Impossible to keep fair.


    Also, what stops the diamond player to go over to his silver level buddy's house and play the tournament? Absolutely nothing. It would be the same for Gold and Platinum aswell. Basicly, this could only work in Diamond league and it's unreasonable to think Blizzard would implement something like this for such a small portion of the playerbase - with all the legal hassle that would come with it.

    If you really want to see something like this(I think it would be awesome) you'd be better off setting up a third-party site for it than expect Blizzard to implement it. It just will never happen.
    shinwa
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Sweden225 Posts
    June 18 2010 08:00 GMT
    #140
    I love, love, love this idea!

    I guess the big problem would be to manage and administrate this and keep it from being abused - but I firmly believe it is possible.

    Great stuff!
    Ghostcom
    Profile Joined March 2010
    Denmark4782 Posts
    June 18 2010 08:05 GMT
    #141
    The idea itself is awesome - it just won't happen due to legal problems which other posters have already pointed out.
    Hasudk
    Profile Joined October 2009
    Denmark78 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 08:14:19
    June 18 2010 08:12 GMT
    #142
    One problem I could foresee with this (not sure if it has been posted already). Platinum or diamond players could throw normal games un purpose to get downgraded to gold or silver level and then easily win those tournaments. This is prevented right now because there is no incentive to actively downgrading yourself, but winning easy money would be an excellent incentive.
    Also this would be banned in SO many countries, Im not sure blizzard really wants to start that fight.

    [EDIT] OK so it has been discussed. Just delete this post or what ever. I fail.
    nyshak
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Germany132 Posts
    June 18 2010 08:17 GMT
    #143
    Great post!
    B-)
    OminouS
    Profile Joined February 2010
    Sweden1343 Posts
    June 18 2010 08:28 GMT
    #144
    The only reason Jinro suggests this is cuz he wants to take our money by owning us! Don't listen to him!

    I guess the idea is fine, it wont hurt the casual gamers cuz they can just choose not to enter. I would personally not enter such a tournament.
    On the 6th day JF made Reavers and on the 7th day JF put his opponent to rest
    okrane
    Profile Joined April 2010
    France265 Posts
    June 18 2010 08:46 GMT
    #145
    What is the point of all this? Are all games going to be transformed into some kind of "insert coin to play" type of thing? Why does money have to be the main incentive of it all? Personally it seems like a really bad direction to take because with constant motivations to put a price tag on every little service a game company offers to their clients we will escalate into the typical extortion based business models from the entertainment field we see everywhere from gambling to night clubs charging freaking 10 euros for a can of coke.

    I understand tournaments are made to gain cash. Also I understand the idea of someone wanting to become a "pro" gamer (i.e. earn his living from gaming), but the funding of pro gamers like any other sports should come mainly from sponsors and people interested in watching such an event.

    I understand that gamers would like to have a way to gain money with what they like to do. But opening opportunities for blizzard to start sqeezing even more cash out of the game is a slippery slope which I fear we will all regret in a few years.
    Really disappointed with Starcraft II Zerg! :(
    Immersion_
    Profile Joined May 2010
    United Kingdom794 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 08:52:30
    June 18 2010 08:51 GMT
    #146
    Skill relative to your opponents plays a much larger role in Starcraft than Poker in any given tournament, it brings the idea of game selection to a whole new level and the possibilities for abuse are close to endless. Fundamentally it's a great idea though .

    Edit: SPAG!
    http://www.twitch.tv/sybar1te Sybarite#2581 - add me for Heroes games. .Play Hots and Overwatch currently. Feel free to add.
    [SD]Hi_MaN
    Profile Joined October 2004
    Poland54 Posts
    June 18 2010 08:57 GMT
    #147
    this is awesome idea. i would play in such tournaments for sure
    http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/1018/ragetemplate.png
    angiepolska
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Belgium13 Posts
    June 18 2010 09:07 GMT
    #148
    Oh man I LOVE this idea. I'm happy to see some poker influences here. This would make SC2 so much better, think about it, bnet would get money to constantly work on the game (like on wow). Wow is constantly updating, wow service is great, etc etc.. They can only do that because they have subscription fee, meaning that after you bought the game you still are paying.
    This should be implemented in so many more games, if you don't want to play for money, then don't it doesn't make the gaming experience any worse. Just like in poker, you can play the free money tables or the real money tables. And if you go broke, you still can keep on playing the free money tables.
    My only concern is that not enough people would play it, as a huge part of SC2'ers are -18 & -21. And the adults that do play SC2 would probably rather play poker than SC2.
    But I really love the idea, and I would definitely use that system if it were there.

    Does this promote gambling? Anyone that has read 10minutes about poker strategy knows that poker has nothing to do with gambling nor luck. Poker is a skill game just like starcraft 2, just capitalizing more on other skills and having a bigger 'random' factor thus more deviation.


    FrozenArbiter, really big up for this post. I hope blizzard will look into it.
    Sickest baneling bang ever
    TieN.nS)
    Profile Joined August 2003
    United States2131 Posts
    June 18 2010 09:19 GMT
    #149
    Would be nice in a world without maphacks.
    -Archangel-
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Croatia7457 Posts
    June 18 2010 09:30 GMT
    #150
    In addition to pay to play, I would use the tournament system to base the league promotions around it. Lets says to get into the higher league you need a certain amount of ladder points (or win lose ratio), but joining each tournament can earn you promotion points.

    Like someone said winning a tournament moves you up a league instantly, but a 2nd or 3rd place gives you a lot of promotion points so lets says 2 second places will also promote you. Then lets say in a 32 player tournament 1st 10 places could give you some of these promotion points.

    Also for free tournaments you would get half the promotion points you would get for pay to play ones to account for probably weaker opponents.

    And maybe for each stronger leagues you need more promotion points, like to move from platinum to diamond you need 2 wins in a tournament or 4 2nd places.

    And for pro league some other system should be used or maybe only counting wins in pay to play tournaments

    What do you think?
    Waltchelg
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States66 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 10:45:10
    June 18 2010 10:42 GMT
    #151
    On June 18 2010 17:46 okrane wrote:
    What is the point of all this? Are all games going to be transformed into some kind of "insert coin to play" type of thing? Why does money have to be the main incentive of it all? Personally it seems like a really bad direction to take because with constant motivations to put a price tag on every little service a game company offers to their clients we will escalate into the typical extortion based business models from the entertainment field we see everywhere from gambling to night clubs charging freaking 10 euros for a can of coke.



    This has probably been said in the thread, but I'm not reading 8 pages of shit.

    Have any of you ever been to a LAN? Almost every single community LAN event has a buyin... nobody has ever bitched about paying a $50 entry to get yourself into one of those tournaments. SURE, circumstances are slightly different seeing as how theres no building/electric/whatever fees going into the tournament provider, but the idea is the same. People pay money to get a chance at winning money.

    EDIT: fuck, even MLG charges its Halo teams to compete and they've got sponsors out the whazoo. It's something around $250/team to enter.
    Elite Muffin Crew / No Talent member
    Rabiator
    Profile Joined March 2010
    Germany3948 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 10:58:19
    June 18 2010 10:57 GMT
    #152
    If you add "pay to play" things into the fundamentals of Battlenet 2.0 you have to give Starcraft 2 an 18+ rating. Its the same for Poker, which isnt legal for minors either ... well usually (lots of different countries and laws around the globe). This is totally against the main group of customers and we should not make an exception just because it is Starcraft and allow teenagers participate in such tournaments.

    Secondly I think having MORE tournaments is bad, because it will lower the general quality of it all as an e-Sport which you could watch on TV. Poker is generally pretty boring to watch, so it works for them, but if the good players can make more money themselves from prizes in pay-to-play tournaments (which probably have bigger prizes that way), why should they go to free tournaments where they only receive 100$, but which are covered on internet-TV?
    If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
    RogerChillingworth
    Profile Joined March 2010
    2842 Posts
    June 18 2010 11:25 GMT
    #153
    Now there definitely can't be multiple accounts per player. Just imagine.
    aka wilted_kale
    Uriel_SVK
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Slovakia427 Posts
    June 18 2010 12:18 GMT
    #154
    I could see this work this way -
    There will be some b.net currency that you can buy with real money (For example 10$ = 1000b.net $), which could be used for tournaments.
    For this b.net$ you could buy stuff - portrait/decals, custom maps, other downloadable content, stuff from blizzard store ...
    Some b.net$ could be also awarded for finishing single player/getting in better league/getting some special achievement - so some more people could try out tournaments which could lure them to spend their money on buying more b.net$

    I bet that guys from activision/blizzard are already have ideas like this in their little greedy heads.

    arnold(soTa)
    Profile Joined March 2010
    Sweden352 Posts
    June 18 2010 12:54 GMT
    #155
    nice idea, I like it.. support it 100%.
    The comparison with magic the gathering was nice, although I hope blizzard wouldnt take as big of a cut/rake as MTG do...because its practically impossible/hard for anyone but MTG to make a profit out of it.
    "I like turtles"
    Puosu
    Profile Blog Joined April 2007
    6985 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 13:06:14
    June 18 2010 13:01 GMT
    #156
    Wouldn't this kill all live tournaments and make SC progaming completely different from what it is right now? Assuming the tournaments would not be only limited to micro stakes I can't see the sponsors being able to host tournaments with big enough prize money to compete with how much money a progamer could grind online instead.

    I'd rather see SC go towards what standard spectator sports are and not just reading graphs on the internet how someone made a cool million dollars grinding 24 tables windows on PSbnet 2.0.
    arnold(soTa)
    Profile Joined March 2010
    Sweden352 Posts
    June 18 2010 13:03 GMT
    #157
    well, this isnt poker were you can play 24 tournaments at once at much higher stakes with stats overlays etc..would be hard to make millions doing this
    "I like turtles"
    turnip
    Profile Joined May 2010
    United States193 Posts
    June 18 2010 13:05 GMT
    #158
    This is an awesome idea. I have played thousands of paid/prized pickup tournaments (MTG/poker) and would definitely play SC2 SnGs. The competitive feeling is so much greater when playing for prizes, even when they are trivial.
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 13:29:38
    June 18 2010 13:24 GMT
    #159
    On June 18 2010 19:57 Rabiator wrote:
    If you add "pay to play" things into the fundamentals of Battlenet 2.0 you have to give Starcraft 2 an 18+ rating. Its the same for Poker, which isnt legal for minors either ... well usually (lots of different countries and laws around the globe). This is totally against the main group of customers and we should not make an exception just because it is Starcraft and allow teenagers participate in such tournaments.

    WoW is pay to play, and I don't think it's 18+ so I don't get why this would be?


    Secondly I think having MORE tournaments is bad, because it will lower the general quality of it all as an e-Sport which you could watch on TV. Poker is generally pretty boring to watch, so it works for them, but if the good players can make more money themselves from prizes in pay-to-play tournaments (which probably have bigger prizes that way), why should they go to free tournaments where they only receive 100$, but which are covered on internet-TV?

    I don't agree - it seems really unrealistic for these types of tournaments to actually become big enough to usurp the more traditional ones.

    In poker you have a completely different demographic (less broke college kids, more well-to-do middle-aged adults), and there's a lot more incentive for a wider group of people to play.

    In addition, in poker you can play dozens of tables at once - not something you'd be able to do in SC2 even if the traffic allowed it.

    On June 18 2010 16:02 Bio-Leera wrote:
    I don't post often but I played warcraft 3 a lot before starcraft 2. In Warcraft 3 on the battle.net servers they held automated tournaments 3 times weekly at least. They were sometimes sponsored by a random company, like AT&T or just sponsored by blizzard themselves. There was a qualifying time maybe like 2 hours of playing against tourney entries and then whoever has the best record gets dropped into a 16 bracket.

    Now I know this isn't like the instantaneous tournaments that you were talking about While endless amounts of tournaments sounds nice, I could see myself getting carried away with it and burning a hole in my pocket.

    My main point and i read through the entire thread and still didn't see anyone bring it up, I guess 'cause not many people played wc3 here, but blizzard did automated tournements before for free. Like you said I don't mind paying but I don't want to pay for something that was offered for free before.

    In my head it works like this... the top 3, or whatever number, ranked players from each division get dropped in a huge bracket for the entire league. This will cover that problem poeple had of being in divisions but not knowing who was truly the best. if there was league wide tourneys, which I assume there will be, you would really know who was the best. Hell I might even watch for the results from those tourneys.

    I'm sure your idea sounded awesome coming from like sc1, but to me it sounded like what they've been doing in wc3 for years now (3 years at the least) and then putting a price tag on it.

    If there are any chances of extra money costs, it would be like what they did in WoW. There would be a separate server that you paid 10 more a month to play on. On that server you play against the best of the best in arena, and could also have any item you wanted. Top teams would then get to go the official blizzard tournament.

    So in sc2 there would be like the "Pro ID" that you pay monthly for that lets you on to a global server or something, and access to all those lan latency tourneys which i think are going to be more common than people think.

    alright I'm done rambling, just thought I bring up this point.


    I've played those WC3 touranments you speak of, but as far as I know they didn't have any prizes?

    My suggestion is to have both automated tournaments with $ buyins (and $ prizes), as well as free tournaments (both with and without prizes - prizes can be either $, or tickets to $buyin tournaments).
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    NonY
    Profile Blog Joined June 2007
    8748 Posts
    June 18 2010 13:33 GMT
    #160
    On June 18 2010 15:26 rK wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 10:11 Noelani wrote:
    Man this is an awesome idea... srsly fk the government, cuz as others have said, pointless laws based on the thinking that gambling is "immoral" will prevent blizzard from bothering to tackle the legal nightmare of implementing this amazing idea.


    The gambling laws in the US generate $80-100 billion a year for the government (this doesn't count online gambling). Do you really believe those laws are in place because of moral reasons?

    Law frowned upon gambling before it made so much money by doing so. As far as I know, both the legislators and judges who are responsible for gambling laws have cited moral reasons, yes.

    ...

    I am wondering something about all the people who don't approve of this idea but don't suggest another system that would have good automated tournaments. Do you not value automated tournaments? If you do value them, then what is your alternative solution? If you don't have one, make your arguments balance against the fact that you are giving up extraordinarily awesome automated tournaments. I am hoping that many of you who give somewhat feeble reasons for not supporting this idea would actually support this idea when you see that the good outweighs the bad.

    Also, I see many people arguing why this would fail. People say that some players who would want to enter would be unable to. There would be many who would not want to enter. etc. This is a fruitless discussion. That's all you have to do as a fan is decide how you feel about having this service on bnet. It'd be Blizzard's job to decide whether it's worth it and their responsibility to make sure it succeeds if they decide to go through with it. If you are worried that Blizzard might fail at whatever they try to do, and that's your reason for opposing some things they could possibly do, then you're adding nothing to discussion. The bottom line is you don't think Blizzard can do things.

    Since it's an optional service, the only possible negatives I can imagine are these:
    --implementing this service gets prioritized over something you want more, so it takes you longer to see the bnet features you want the most
    --the existence of this feature negatively affects things that are not directly related to it. For example, this feature gives SC2 bad publicity as a game endorsing gambling (who knows what BS the media will say for ratings...)

    You might not be worried about either of those things at all and, even though you don't care for the service, you should be in support of it if it'll make some portion of your fellow players happy.
    "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    June 18 2010 13:35 GMT
    #161
    Law frowned upon gambling before it made so much money by doing so. As far as I know, both the legislators and judges who are responsible for gambling laws have cited moral reasons, yes.

    The current anti-online gambling laws are a joke tho, allowing regular casinos/betting on horses etc and banning online gambling.... Original objections might have been moral, I doubt the ones today are.
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    decemvre
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Romania639 Posts
    June 18 2010 13:38 GMT
    #162
    SC2 is not gambling. Why are you even discussing gambling laws ?
    decemberTV
    Puosu
    Profile Blog Joined April 2007
    6985 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 13:43:11
    June 18 2010 13:42 GMT
    #163
    On June 18 2010 22:38 decemvrie wrote:
    SC2 is not gambling. Why are you even discussing gambling laws ?

    This is actually very interesting to me, is MTG online with money involved considered gambling? Do they have to follow the same rules/laws as poker sites?

    I always thought they did and that game as far as I know isn't really "gambling" because its 100% skill. I guess SC would be the same if that's true.
    Onioncookie
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Germany624 Posts
    June 18 2010 13:45 GMT
    #164
    But that would make the game a rating 18+ ?
    Kambing
    Profile Joined May 2010
    United States1176 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 13:54:59
    June 18 2010 13:46 GMT
    #165
    On June 18 2010 22:24 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    WoW is pay to play, and I don't think it's 18+ so I don't get why this would be?


    It's not. World of Warcraft is rated teen.

    The ESRB distinguishes between simulated and real gambling. Games with simulated gambling typically receive at least a teen rating whereas real gambling nets an adults-only rating, e.g., Peak Entertainment Casinos.

    Note that this really isn't much of an issue because the closest relative to jinro's suggestion, magic online, also nets a teen rating even with its buy-in tournament system.

    (And also wow retains it's teen rating even with the buy-in arena tournament system.)
    decemvre
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Romania639 Posts
    June 18 2010 13:47 GMT
    #166
    The whole concept of gambling involves "random chance". Nobody would consider a chess tournament gambling now would they ?

    Gambling laws are enforced mainly to make sure that the websites implement "true random" and that the games aren't fixed. Some legislatures choose not to allow online gambling altogether.


    On a side note, any map-hacking in such a tournament could be subject to prosecution !!!
    decemberTV
    skaeve
    Profile Joined March 2010
    Denmark66 Posts
    June 18 2010 13:53 GMT
    #167
    As many have already pointed out it would be a problem in the lower leagues, because of smurfing and losing placements on purpose.. Anyways i think its a good idea, but make it diamond only or available to all.
    Senx
    Profile Blog Joined March 2008
    Sweden5901 Posts
    June 18 2010 13:55 GMT
    #168
    That would be epic, i would love to have plat/gold automated tournies I could just join on the fly and compete in for fame and glory and perhaps some cash :D
    "trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
    Executioner.zealot
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    United States60 Posts
    June 18 2010 14:00 GMT
    #169
    I prefer pay-to-play. I have always found that the software company listens to the masses more when they are getting a reoccurring monthly check from you. And considering Blizzard has grossly missed many reoccurring complaints or suggestions during beta, it might help motivate them to keep people paying.
    Puosu
    Profile Blog Joined April 2007
    6985 Posts
    June 18 2010 14:02 GMT
    #170
    On June 18 2010 23:00 Executioner.zealot wrote:
    I prefer pay-to-play. I have always found that the software company listens to the masses more when they are getting a reoccurring monthly check from you. And considering Blizzard has grossly missed many reoccurring complaints or suggestions during beta, it might help motivate them to keep people paying.

    WoW?

    Yeah obviously a company is going to work more if they get paid more, however monthly pay in an RTS game is a big no-no. They wouldn't be able to compete in a market where they would be the only ones requesting such huge amounts of money.

    This kind of feature however would make paying optional and even if you're good it would allow you to profit from the game more easily. It wouldn't interfere with the casual players enjoyment at all.
    Smu
    Profile Joined July 2009
    Serbia164 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 14:06:51
    June 18 2010 14:03 GMT
    #171
    The relation to poker is interesting, as a game of poker can have similarities to StarCraft. It also rewards patience, intelligence, concentration, and one's willingness to stare at the monitor for majority of your daytime. We all know that some of the SC gosus (or would-be-gosus) went on to be successful in Poker.

    However, money pays a different role in Poker then it could in SC. Basically, poker would be extremely boring if there was no money involved. Without money, there is no weight to your decisions, and the algorithm of the game itself offers little excitement on it's own. It is easy to understand why money is an internal part of the poker game.

    StarCraft is all about it's gameplay. Most people are there to have fun. Once you get your 4 or 6 workers and your main building, real life, outside of the meta-game of course, does not affect the game anymore. The most exciting matches are those versus best players, where people with the best gameplay clash to see who will be better. The fact that you have to buy the game first in order to play it is really not comparable to the role money has in poker.

    By adding money to get in, you are preventing a lot of players who don't have money (or are too young to have their own paypal accounts) who could be potentially better from others who have money to splash. Of course that the best players and progamers would invest this without thinking, but others who might want to take a shot at it would be turned off. It would create a barrier between people who play for money tournaments and those that play for fun, which is not a good thing. It would also bring a gambling touch to the game. Seriously, I love StarCraft. But many things about the idea of being able to have a good career from playing video games are very wrong. And this is only trying to push that idea in a completely wrong way. If anything, gaming should be about openness, purity and sportsmanship. It shouldn't be like poker in this regard. Many sports (think major football leagues in Europe) got rotten and boring because they started being about money too much. They are giant marketing clogged dirty money laundries.

    In my opinion, there should be tournaments and Blizzard should get some prizes; from sponsors, adds on bent (if those are still in plan) etc. Everyone should be able to host tournaments and they can, of course, add an entrance fee. But if anything should set up a standard for automated tournaments it should be free tournaments.
    Take us into orbit Mr. Malmsteen. We've seen enough.
    Brazen[six]
    Profile Joined June 2010
    Canada203 Posts
    June 18 2010 14:15 GMT
    #172
    I really like this idea and would love to see it implemented. I think in order to get around people losing on purpose would be to have a seperate rating for tournament play, which will then either deny access to lower rating tournaments and allow access to equal or higher rating tournaments.

    The difference with this and poker though, is that typically the poker pros stick to the higher buy-ins because of the 'type' of players involved and the fact that they can afford to bankroll it. Your typical starcraft player, actually... I should say Blizzard's target audience... probably isn't going to want to shell out large sums of $$ for these tournaments.

    I think the biggest challenge with a system like this is ensuring that everyone who joins the tournament is on the same skill level. However, when you think about it... there's nothing stopping an experienced poker or professional player from playing in a $1 buy-in. I think if you have a seperate rating for tournament play based on win/loss or other factors and then have a system that, for example, will only allow players with a rating of 0-100 to sign up for a tournament, then it would even the playing field. All the good players will quickly win and raise their rating and then there becomes a pyramid effect after some time.
    Fefnir
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States50 Posts
    June 18 2010 14:19 GMT
    #173
    amazing idea outside of being able to fleece the tourneys. Just make it so you have to be top league, the one you actually have to work to get into, in order to play the p2p tourneys. everybody else could use the f2p tourneys as a way to rank up much faster within their division, so if you have the time to play through at 16 player tourney in one sitting and you win it, that would rank you up quite a bit more than just playing 4 matches. 1, more initiative to become good and get into diamond. 2, helps protect people from being fleeced. 6, tourneys would still be available and beneficial to lower players without having to pay. love the idea though =)
    I'm not a robot but I've got a mechanical hand. I can steal the stars and put them a back again.
    MidKnight
    Profile Joined December 2008
    Lithuania884 Posts
    June 18 2010 14:22 GMT
    #174
    On June 18 2010 22:35 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    Law frowned upon gambling before it made so much money by doing so. As far as I know, both the legislators and judges who are responsible for gambling laws have cited moral reasons, yes.

    The current anti-online gambling laws are a joke tho, allowing regular casinos/betting on horses etc and banning online gambling.... Original objections might have been moral, I doubt the ones today are.


    Well, goverment realises that they make waaaay more money by allowing people to gamble on stuff which are almost 100% luck based.
    I mean, they ban poker, but allow people to buy lottery tickets which are INCREDIBILY -EV-wise in a lifetime, just to create the illusion that you can win and turn your life around..

    It's extremely greedy for them to monetize simple stuff like tournaments, but if this is the direction current gaming is going, I think your suggestion is definitely the best one.
    Fefnir
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States50 Posts
    June 18 2010 14:22 GMT
    #175
    1 more thing, hosting your own tourney is a HORRIBLE idea, sry frozen. The idea of giving a player any control of something where other people's money is involved is just at straight palm face no to me. Blizz is pretty good about it, but hacking will be done and we dont need to take any chances with that.
    I'm not a robot but I've got a mechanical hand. I can steal the stars and put them a back again.
    Dragonsven
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States145 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 14:25:55
    June 18 2010 14:24 GMT
    #176
    This is a pretty bad idea. Poker is not remotely close to a video game like Starcraft. You are basically just saying you want to be able to gamble on the outcome of games, something Blizzard would never allow and would also get them in a lot of legal trouble.
    Fair and balanced.
    Smu
    Profile Joined July 2009
    Serbia164 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 14:29:20
    June 18 2010 14:24 GMT
    #177
    They don't ban lottery because it is perfectly casual and not that harmless and devastating on the short run (altho it will cost you money in the long run). But most of all, lottery doesn't create addiction that drives people into very unhealthy behavior, which gambling and poker often do. Don't pretend you don't realize this.

    edit: also, lottery is usually national, horses and such as well, while online poker sites can be anywhere, creating money drains from countries where people play a lot to countries where poker rooms are. Australia is a good example.
    Take us into orbit Mr. Malmsteen. We've seen enough.
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    June 18 2010 14:32 GMT
    #178
    On June 18 2010 23:22 MidKnight wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 22:35 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    Law frowned upon gambling before it made so much money by doing so. As far as I know, both the legislators and judges who are responsible for gambling laws have cited moral reasons, yes.

    The current anti-online gambling laws are a joke tho, allowing regular casinos/betting on horses etc and banning online gambling.... Original objections might have been moral, I doubt the ones today are.


    Well, goverment realises that they make waaaay more money by allowing people to gamble on stuff which are almost 100% luck based.
    I mean, they ban poker, but allow people to buy lottery tickets which are INCREDIBILY -EV-wise in a lifetime, just to create the illusion that you can win and turn your life around..

    It's extremely greedy for them to monetize simple stuff like tournaments, but if this is the direction current gaming is going, I think your suggestion is definitely the best one.

    Well the thing is, the US based brick and mortar casinos obviously pay taxes to the US gov.

    If Americans play on a site located in europe/the carribean..... no taxes for the US government.
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    Wolf
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    Korea (South)3290 Posts
    June 18 2010 14:37 GMT
    #179
    Someone mentioned gambling.. I don't think this is gambling at all.
    Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/proxywolf
    TL+ Member
    Frozenzen
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Sweden97 Posts
    June 18 2010 14:46 GMT
    #180
    On June 18 2010 22:24 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    WoW is pay to play, and I don't think it's 18+ so I don't get why this would be?


    I believe the difference comes down to the fact that you can actually get money back from this, while from WoW you simply pay them. This is just a thought though, but that seems like it could be a distinction.

    I personally love this idea, even if when I first read it it felt wrong. As a plat/low diamond player on beta I probably wouldn't stand a chance to win many of these. But hell, I currently pay 15$ a month for WoW, and I absolutely loved dropping 20 SEK (about 2$ or so) per game with friends from work playing poker. Usually losing, but it made the game more fun.

    I play games to have fun/get excited. And when money is on the line, even if it's a tiny amount it's more fun. But the legal issues could be tricky due to the fact that you can actually earn money, and some seriously draconian anti hack measures might be needed.


    Full
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United Kingdom253 Posts
    June 18 2010 14:48 GMT
    #181
    This is gambling. Just because its a game of skill and not luck, does not make this something other than gambling.

    Secondly does blizzard even have the right's to implement this into a computer game?

    Thirdly, i honestly doubt blizzard will even WANT to implement it. I strongly doubt it would become as big of a hit as poker making the rake blizzard take anywhere near as profitable to really be worth it. And what's more, they will have to have a big clusterfuck of a lawsuit to be able to persuade that it's fair and everyone has a chance. And on top of that they will get a massive amounts of emails of whiney kid's who apparantly accidently bought into the wrong entrance fee tournament so they want their money back or some other whiney kid who thinks he lost due to hacking.

    This reminds me also, the thing with poker is that it quite simply can't be hacked - No drops, maphacks or whatever else, and its extremely hard to bot it. This kind of thing is just going to encourage cheating, and probably sway blizzard away from making it happen. Just imagine how badly online poker would have failed if people could download hacks for it.

    Sorry if any of these points have been made before but i dont fancy reading 9 pages
    Imperfex
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Canada5 Posts
    June 18 2010 14:53 GMT
    #182
    Full, you have to be kidding.

    Have you even Google'd "poker bot"? Go ahead, I'll wait.

    Done? Good.

    I'm not entertaining the thought that Blizzard will implement this for even ONE SECOND (legal headaches = huge nightmare), but it would be awesome, all the same.
    CryMore
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States497 Posts
    June 18 2010 14:56 GMT
    #183
    I feel that the best way to get around the gambling laws (even though this isn't gambling at all) is as Frozen Arbiter mentioned earlier make the tournaments use some sort of blizzard currency. You would buy this blizzard currency using real money. As long as this blizzard currency cannot convert back into real cash, you are buying a product from blizzard thus there is absolutely no gambling laws applied (mainly because this counts as sales/revenue and blizzard will pay a tax to the government it belongs in so they don't care). Then people can use this currency to compete in tournaments.

    This currency can then be used to purchase blizzard products (like additional copies of SC2, WoW Cards), merchandise (Hats T-shirts), or blizzcon tickets =D. Blizzard makes money because it doesn't cost them retail price to give out their products. The currency can also be used to purchase some of the "premium" stuff blizzard said they are selling.
    "What wins? 3-base Protoss or 2-base Zerg?" "1-base Terran"
    DGMavn
    Profile Blog Joined November 2009
    United States48 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 15:07:35
    June 18 2010 14:58 GMT
    #184
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/31/usc_sec_31_00005362----000-.html
    US Federal Code, Title 31 > Subtitle IV > Chapter 53 > Subchapter IV > § 5362
    + Show Spoiler +
    (1) Bet or wager.— The term “bet or wager”—
    (A) means the staking or risking by any person of something of value upon the outcome of a contest of others, a sporting event, or a game subject to chance, upon an agreement or understanding that the person or another person will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome;


    Here's the issue: if you want to call SC2 an E-Sport, then it falls under this definition of betting.

    The reason sponsored tournaments are not illegal is because they fall under the following exception outlined in the code:

    + Show Spoiler +
    (ix) participation in any fantasy or simulation sports game or educational game or contest in which (if the game or contest involves a team or teams) no fantasy or simulation sports team is based on the current membership of an actual team that is a member of an amateur or professional sports organization (as those terms are defined in section 3701 of title 28) and that meets the following conditions:
    (I) All prizes and awards offered to winning participants are established and made known to the participants in advance of the game or contest and their value is not determined by the number of participants or the amount of any fees paid by those participants.
    (II) All winning outcomes reflect the relative knowledge and skill of the participants and are determined predominantly by accumulated statistical results of the performance of individuals (athletes in the case of sports events) in multiple real-world sporting or other events.
    (III) No winning outcome is based—
    (aa) on the score, point-spread, or any performance or performances of any single real-world team or any combination of such teams; or
    (bb) solely on any single performance of an individual athlete in any single real-world sporting or other event.


    Because there's a prize pool set up beforehand that is independent of the fees paid by the entrants (ie, there is no "pot"), things like the TL Invitational are not subject to sanctions revolving around online gambling. As long as SnGs revolve around players creating a pot with their entrance fees and paying out a portion of those pots to the winner and runner-up, it'd be very hard to argue that SnGs would be covered by this exemption.

    Also, FA: http://www.cigital.com/papers/download/developer_gambling.php <-- this is the link to the guys who cracked the shuffling algorithm. It's from 1999, so it's unfortunately a little more dated than I would've liked. But still, collusion in online poker is still decently common.
    "Combat, your penis is full of shit!" - Day[9]
    Loverman
    Profile Joined September 2007
    Romania266 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:01 GMT
    #185
    There's gonna be something similar, you'll just have to be patient : )
    Takkara
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    United States2503 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:03 GMT
    #186
    I'd really love this idea. Even if it was without money. Just spontaneous, automated tournaments. But I echo the sentiments of other that I think this is a legal nightmare for Blizz. Also, because it involves younger players it might be seen in a bad light. I can't see Blizzard supporting it but goodness it would be a lot of fun.
    Gee gee gee gee baby baby baby
    ViRo
    Profile Joined May 2010
    United States137 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:03 GMT
    #187
    While this would be an interesting system, I cannot see blizzard implementing such a thing.
    The back door was open.....so.....
    Marou
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    Germany1371 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:05 GMT
    #188
    i think this is a nice idea in theory, but it will be abused so much, like arrenged games or players sticking in lower divison by purpose in order to be able to register to silver/bronze tournaments, pown noobs and get their money.
    It is ok in poker to have a fat shark playing in micro limits just to gain some safe money, because the noob can always win with luck, but there is almost no luck factor in SC2 so....
    Overall i think it should be something that only diamond/pro leagues have, this way it would be fair since only "experienced" and aware players will register in these tournaments.
    Anyways the money system doesnt have to be in Bnet2.0, a website could handle it and hopefully one day we'll have a Bnet API so you can manage Bnet tournaments through your own website.
    twitter@RickyMarou
    skipdog172
    Profile Joined June 2010
    United States331 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:06 GMT
    #189
    This is such a great idea. The only problem is the fact that extremely good players will simply throw games to get placed in silver/gold leagues so that they can crush these. They'll just have multiple copies of SC2. I'm not sure how its avoided either.

    Many of us would probably play in a few, meet some super high Diamond player in 5 'Gold' tournaments in a row and decide it isn't worth investing any more money.
    cocosoft
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Sweden1068 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:14 GMT
    #190
    Neat idea.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    WhistlingMtn
    Profile Joined May 2010
    United States190 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:14 GMT
    #191
    On June 19 2010 00:06 skipdog172 wrote:
    This is such a great idea. The only problem is the fact that extremely good players will simply throw games to get placed in silver/gold leagues so that they can crush these. They'll just have multiple copies of SC2. I'm not sure how its avoided either.

    Many of us would probably play in a few, meet some super high Diamond player in 5 'Gold' tournaments in a row and decide it isn't worth investing any more money.


    Wouldn't be legal in the US in the format described. I'm not sure if it'd be legal if there was no Blizzard cut.

    Side note, I wouldn't play a money tournament on BNET until they prove they can prevent map hacking.

    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:15 GMT
    #192
    Also, FA: http://www.cigital.com/papers/download/developer_gambling.php <-- this is the link to the guys who cracked the shuffling algorithm. It's from 1999, so it's unfortunately a little more dated than I would've liked. But still, collusion in online poker is still decently common.

    Thanks - doesn't seem it was Pokerstars they broke tho, but some other room I've never heard of (I didn't play poker back then). Still interesting.
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    Count_Waltz
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States48 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:27 GMT
    #193
    Sounds like a great idea. Online gambling is illegal in the United States and also if it wasn't you'd have to be 18 to gamble. The majority of starcraft players arn't that old... so... ... yea. it wouldn't work.
    sono me ni kizame ko na
    Takkara
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    United States2503 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:33 GMT
    #194
    On June 19 2010 00:27 Count_Waltz wrote:
    Sounds like a great idea. Online gambling is illegal in the United States and also if it wasn't you'd have to be 18 to gamble. The majority of starcraft players arn't that old... so... ... yea. it wouldn't work.


    I don't know if this qualifies as gambling, though.
    Gee gee gee gee baby baby baby
    EnderW
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States170 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:36 GMT
    #195
    I think this is just about the worst idea ever.
    Learn from the mistakes of others, because you wont live long enough to make them all yourself.
    rS.Sinatra
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Canada785 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:39 GMT
    #196
    Nice idea, however this would no be implemented for many many reasons.

    a) Every countries take on this would be different, Blizzard may even have to deal with the gambling authorities in every country since cash tournaments have "wagers", this would also make the game 18A/21A in most countries or simply banned. Note: there are ZERO casinos in China (above ground) and China's internet censorship probably bans online poker (confirm?).

    b) Even if the world were perfect and this would be allowed to happen, it should only be at the top tier level (Pro-league and up). Why? Someone somewhere would easily find some sort of way to farm the bronze league tournaments.

    c) Lets not forget that these tournaments and prizes are merely for fun and incentives for nerds like you and I to become better, play better and give entertainment. While the dream of living off these winnings is often desired, its not the goal of the tournament organizers to enrich these players. The goal is to provide entertainment and sometimes make a small profit off advertising themselves.

    d) If I could play Starcraft for a living I would, but what's to stop a player like Spirit_Moon, who was basically a God for a period of time, from just basically pooling everyone's money. After a while, who would play with him anymore? (OH SPIRIT MOON IS IN THIS, GTFO!! Can't win!! Withdraw money now!!) While this plan might be good in theory, all the mediocre players would eventually run out of money to throw at this and give up (like online poker) or smarten up and know to avoid competition, which is not something I would want in the community.

    The only way to get better is to play better people. How are you ever going to play better people if it costs you more than the time you are already dedicating to the game? Every time I play Starcraft I spend 3+ hours I could have spent doing something else. Do I really want to incur an average hourly cost to this time that would end up being more expensive than World of Warcraft for most people? (no I don't play WoW).

    I mean, sure there will be your grinders that know when to play and can execute top level players or place in the money often enough, but what about the other 95% of the population that just bought this game to have fun?

    Once the game splits into "money vs play money" we all know what the play money tables are like. Nobody takes it seriously and no matter how many points you get it would be meaningless and therefore nobody would ever play that seriously.
    www.rsgaming.com
    Onioncookie
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Germany624 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:44 GMT
    #197
    Dont make it first 3 places are in the pricepool

    Make it like 10/30 or something like that , poker does this aswell , so u might get somethin from the cake sometimes !
    EnderW
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States170 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 15:47:22
    June 18 2010 15:45 GMT
    #198
    [B]
    d) While this plan might be good in theory, all the mediocre players would eventually run out of money to throw at this and give up (like online poker) or smarten up and know to avoid competition, which is not something I would want in the community.



    The difference is, since online poker is largely luck based as well as skill based, the fish often win pots they "shouldn't" (aka against the odds), giving them the illusion that they are skilled players, and causing them to continuously throw money into it.

    So, only the very very best players would actually continue playing at this, and then they would end up breaking nearly even and paying huge amounts of rake.

    And quite honestly, i am disgusted that this type of thing is actually being supported by this community.
    Learn from the mistakes of others, because you wont live long enough to make them all yourself.
    sulliwan
    Profile Joined March 2010
    85 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:50 GMT
    #199
    While I like the idea, it would be a complete nightmare for Blizzard to implement. The legal issues alone will basically make sc2 either illegal or not worth distributing in over half the world.
    Not to mention that unsupervised tournaments for cash is basically an open invitation for cheating, so Blizzard would need a very expensive anti-cheating analysis system in place.

    Online poker sites get away with it since they are hosted in offshore tax-havens and aren't actually active in most countries(ie, they are not actively promoting themselves or selling any products).
    I don't know many countries which go after the players in those sites, so they are basically doing business in a legal vacuum. They are technically illegal, but players from most countries where they are illegal are still allowed to play on them.

    Blizzard does not have those options available to them.
    I am a little teapot!
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:53 GMT
    #200
    and China's internet censorship probably bans online poker (confirm?).

    Yep :<
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    Doso
    Profile Joined March 2008
    Germany769 Posts
    June 18 2010 15:55 GMT
    #201
    Buyin-tournaments don't work in eSports - period.
    fantomex
    Profile Joined June 2009
    United States313 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 16:01:14
    June 18 2010 15:59 GMT
    #202
    Would love to see this, even if only at the top level (with public replays!).

    Obviously it can't be in lieu of free tournaments.

    But as others have mentioned, unfortunately the legal nightmares in USA alone would make this a money loser.

    The biggest thing standing in the way is still maphacking. You simply can't have money tournaments while cheating is so prevalent.
    Replay or GTFO
    Dromar
    Profile Blog Joined June 2007
    United States2145 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 16:08:15
    June 18 2010 16:06 GMT
    #203
    I actually agree with this idea. I've been completely against monetization, but it's time to get real. There's money to be made, and they're gonna make it somehow. I'd prefer they make it in a way that enhances the experience, rather than just taking something away and then charging to get it back.

    Some thoughts on this...

    1. Obviously, single player and most multiplayer functions would have to be free. I couldn't imagine a poker client that would succeed trying to charge $60 to make an account, even just to play play-money games.

    2. I think that this is great to bring something competitive into the game that would otherwise not exist (round-the-clock tourneys), and this would definitely promote E-SPORTS.

    3. I like how it's usage-based, rather than a subscription. This will incentivize Blizzard to improve the product. For example, players will likely only play tournaments if they believe they have a realistic chance of winning. Ranking-restricted tourneys will help this, but only if players believe that the ranking system accurately gauges player skill. So Blizzard is incentivized to improve their ranking system to be more accurate, and even prevent players from misrepresenting their own skill as best they can. Also, they would have a real incentive to prevent cheating of all forms, which is a huge bonus IMO.

    4. I think anyone can afford 5 cents to play a tournament. And I think this would easily cover their day-to-day expenses to run bnet2.

    PR- and legality- wise, they might run into trouble. Perhaps they could require some age verification to be allowed to play money games, and then restrict the amount that could be spent in various time units, similar to deposit limits for poker clients. They would also have to state that their alternative monetization option was a subscription, and mention how that would cost more for 99.9% of users.


    So overall, I think this is a great way to introduce monetization for the players. But they could make way more money charging a $5/month subscription fee. And a subscription fee would be much easier/less hassle too. So I don't know if this will ever be a realistic option.
    mnck
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Denmark1518 Posts
    June 18 2010 16:06 GMT
    #204
    While I know nothing about law at all. I think this would be such a big ordeal for Blizzard to introduce that it's simply not gonna happen. There are so many countries with so different laws that affect this sort of gamling.

    I think this is the wrong way of making StarCraft 2 competetive.
    @Munck
    Smikis
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Lithuania117 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 16:15:20
    June 18 2010 16:13 GMT
    #205
    did you ever consider that most payments arent instant.. that payments have fees.. your 1 buck gets 1-2 bucks fee for you. probably another fee for charger... the fact that most banks wont operate during evenings.. and so far from buying online only steam is one that charged me instantly..

    i cant believe that mod is actually encouraging micro transactions.. not to mention members agreeing.. hardly anyone ever play wc3 automated tourneys.. and you want to add even fees to this? so much hassle.. for what supposed 50 bucks prize after 20 games to winner?

    if you love your poker so much why wont you stick with it.. and stop encouraging micro transactions...

    we already have modding community that gonna die with map marketplace.. do you think dota would exist today , if it had fee to play.. sure maybe 3.x version.. after some point everyone who plays custom games would bought it already .. why would you bother updating.. unless you charge for every new version.. which brings another nightmare.. spending 200 bucks for one map.. with 3 changes for all you know.. or noone playing newer map..

    they talk about big projects.. big project to get initial money maybe.. and move onto next.. without ever having really epic maps..
    now you suggest this bullshit?
    DGMavn
    Profile Blog Joined November 2009
    United States48 Posts
    June 18 2010 16:19 GMT
    #206
    On June 19 2010 00:59 fantomex wrote:
    The biggest thing standing in the way is still maphacking. You simply can't have money tournaments while cheating is so prevalent.


    I've said this before, and I'll say it again: as soon as money becomes involved, maphacks will become less prevalent.
    A tool that introduces an unfair advantage in a game with no wager on it has very little monetary value.

    A tool that introduces an unfair advantage in a contest with monetary prizes is worth money.

    Introducing the monetary system would provide incentives for those hack authors to keep tighter wraps on their product because it now has additional worth. People will pay a lot of money to get that advantage; if the hack becomes widespread, then the authors get less of the cut.

    That having been said:

    Online poker rooms undergo security audits in order to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that their systems are secure. Here's a link to the Pokerstars report. If SC2 were to hypothetically introduce a SnG format, they would most definitely have to have their system vetted. Given that the communication of SC2 is much more complex than online poker (in poker, the server knows when the other player's hole cards should be revealed; it's easier to trick a SC2 server into thinking you have vision of a certain area), I think the cost of this analysis alone would prove more costly to Blizzard than the money they'd make off of it.

    An interesting sidebar: if there were games going on for money, you'd definitely want to have all traffic going through an official Bnet server, which means no LAN functionality.

    "Combat, your penis is full of shit!" - Day[9]
    radiaL
    Profile Joined August 2003
    Andorra2690 Posts
    June 18 2010 16:20 GMT
    #207
    The only way this would ever work is ala Facebook games platform.

    Blizzard creates 'gold'/'minerals'/whatever you want to call their currency. You would earn said currency exactly in the same way as getting achievements works now: through ladder play/single player play/etc. It is with this currency that you would enter these automated tournaments, and it is this currency that you would stand to win. Then you can buy things like new portraits/new custom maps(?)/cross region play/etc. Maybe even starcraft branded merchandise.

    If however, you suck or just want to show off your friend(s), you can put in your credit card and buy this fake currency, which you are then free to spend on the aforementioned items. Note that the money never leaves the system, there is no way of 'cashing out', so this literally creates nothing but a giant income stream for blizzard.

    I mean mafia wars has made over 100$Million, and it's a text-based Facebook game!
    Blizzard will never do anything poker-like, it's not worth it.
    sideproject: twitch.tv Starcraft II Viewers data - http://twitchsc2data.com/
    myopia
    Profile Blog Joined June 2009
    United States2928 Posts
    June 18 2010 16:23 GMT
    #208
    I'd never participate because I'm not a serious SC player, but this is a good idea and an acceptable way to monetize Bnet.
    it's my first day
    rS.Sinatra
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Canada785 Posts
    June 18 2010 16:24 GMT
    #209
    On June 19 2010 01:20 radiaL wrote:
    The only way this would ever work is ala Facebook games platform.

    Blizzard creates 'gold'/'minerals'/whatever you want to call their currency. You would earn said currency exactly in the same way as getting achievements works now: through ladder play/single player play/etc. It is with this currency that you would enter these automated tournaments, and it is this currency that you would stand to win. Then you can buy things like new portraits/new custom maps(?)/cross region play/etc. Maybe even starcraft branded merchandise.

    If however, you suck or just want to show off your friend(s), you can put in your credit card and buy this fake currency, which you are then free to spend on the aforementioned items. Note that the money never leaves the system, there is no way of 'cashing out', so this literally creates nothing but a giant income stream for blizzard.

    I mean mafia wars has made over 100$Million, and it's a text-based Facebook game!
    Blizzard will never do anything poker-like, it's not worth it.


    Haha.. Starcraft 2 as Facebook App.. very funny... I had to hold my laughter in since I'm at work.
    www.rsgaming.com
    fantomex
    Profile Joined June 2009
    United States313 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 16:28:12
    June 18 2010 16:24 GMT
    #210
    Secondly I think having MORE tournaments is bad, because it will lower the general quality of it all as an e-Sport...


    /facepalm

    You really don't see the link between the increased usage of online Poker sites and the increased viewership of televised Poker?

    People watch the sports they play. If no one plays SC2, no one will watch SC2, and no one will sponsor SC2. (And when I say "Play SC2", I'm not talking about 3v3/UMS, I'm talking competitive ladder/tournaments)

    I've said this before, and I'll say it again: as soon as money becomes involved, maphacks will become less prevalent.
    A tool that introduces an unfair advantage in a game with no wager on it has very little monetary value.

    A tool that introduces an unfair advantage in a contest with monetary prizes is worth money.

    Introducing the monetary system would provide incentives for those hack authors to keep tighter wraps on their product because it now has additional worth. People will pay a lot of money to get that advantage; if the hack becomes widespread, then the authors get less of the cut.


    If there one thing the internet is good at, its taking things that have value and making them free. Saying that maphacks will become less prevalent when money is involved is like trying to tell me the sky isn't blue.
    Replay or GTFO
    iopq
    Profile Blog Joined March 2009
    United States907 Posts
    June 18 2010 16:29 GMT
    #211
    How do I sign up for rakeback?
    rS.Sinatra
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Canada785 Posts
    June 18 2010 16:32 GMT
    #212
    On June 19 2010 01:29 iopq wrote:
    How do I sign up for rakeback?


    www.rakeback.com
    www.rsgaming.com
    DGMavn
    Profile Blog Joined November 2009
    United States48 Posts
    June 18 2010 16:36 GMT
    #213
    On June 19 2010 01:24 fantomex wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    I've said this before, and I'll say it again: as soon as money becomes involved, maphacks will become less prevalent.
    A tool that introduces an unfair advantage in a game with no wager on it has very little monetary value.

    A tool that introduces an unfair advantage in a contest with monetary prizes is worth money.

    Introducing the monetary system would provide incentives for those hack authors to keep tighter wraps on their product because it now has additional worth. People will pay a lot of money to get that advantage; if the hack becomes widespread, then the authors get less of the cut.


    If there one thing the internet is good at, its taking things that have value and making them free. Saying that maphacks will become less prevalent when money is involved is like trying to tell me the sky isn't blue.


    It's economics. If the demand for something goes way up, you can maximize the price by decreasing the supply.

    Alternately: if you have a piece of software that can get you a lot of money, but you want to make sure that the only way people can use it is if they pay for it, then the solution becomes DRM. And since the hackers in this case are the ones writing the DRM, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who would have both the desire and the skill to crack it.
    "Combat, your penis is full of shit!" - Day[9]
    Helios.Star
    Profile Blog Joined May 2010
    United States548 Posts
    June 18 2010 16:36 GMT
    #214
    This sounds like a good idea to me, especially for all the lower skilled players who may otherwise never get a chance to play in a real tournament.
    rS.Sinatra
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Canada785 Posts
    June 18 2010 16:37 GMT
    #215
    On June 19 2010 01:36 DGMavn wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 19 2010 01:24 fantomex wrote:
    I've said this before, and I'll say it again: as soon as money becomes involved, maphacks will become less prevalent.
    A tool that introduces an unfair advantage in a game with no wager on it has very little monetary value.

    A tool that introduces an unfair advantage in a contest with monetary prizes is worth money.

    Introducing the monetary system would provide incentives for those hack authors to keep tighter wraps on their product because it now has additional worth. People will pay a lot of money to get that advantage; if the hack becomes widespread, then the authors get less of the cut.


    If there one thing the internet is good at, its taking things that have value and making them free. Saying that maphacks will become less prevalent when money is involved is like trying to tell me the sky isn't blue.


    It's economics. If the demand for something goes way up, you can maximize the price by decreasing the supply.

    Alternately: if you have a piece of software that can get you a lot of money, but you want to make sure that the only way people can use it is if they pay for it, then the solution becomes DRM. And since the hackers in this case are the ones writing the DRM, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who would have both the desire and the skill to crack it.


    I'm not sure why this topic is even being discussed... however, good luck decreasing the supply of something on the internet. There is only one way supply goes on the internet and that is increase, stupidity being it's chief export.
    www.rsgaming.com
    NonY
    Profile Blog Joined June 2007
    8748 Posts
    June 18 2010 16:51 GMT
    #216
    On June 18 2010 23:48 Full wrote:
    This is gambling. Just because its a game of skill and not luck, does not make this something other than gambling.

    It's definitely not gambling in the US. This is common practice for local LAN tournaments here and tons of kids do it (kids that are not old enough to gamble).

    The only difference would be that the transactions are handled online. But changing the method of payment in this way does not change the nature of the business.
    "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
    Sadistx
    Profile Blog Joined February 2009
    Zimbabwe5568 Posts
    June 18 2010 16:55 GMT
    #217
    Umm, this is how it SHOULD have been from the start. I remember reading your earlier post and many blizzard posts and I was hugely disappointed that this didn't make it into the beta.

    I was under the impression that Blizz were on board with this from the get-go, but as with many things on Bnet 0.2, I guess they forgot about it.
    rS.Sinatra
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Canada785 Posts
    June 18 2010 17:00 GMT
    #218
    On June 19 2010 01:51 Liquid`NonY wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 23:48 Full wrote:
    This is gambling. Just because its a game of skill and not luck, does not make this something other than gambling.

    It's definitely not gambling in the US. This is common practice for local LAN tournaments here and tons of kids do it (kids that are not old enough to gamble).

    The only difference would be that the transactions are handled online. But changing the method of payment in this way does not change the nature of the business.


    I agree that this isn't gambling. I even go so far as to say Poker isn't really gambling as the skill patient players will always win in the long-run. However, in the eyes of the public, this may end up in the legal definition of gambling since you are wagering money into a tournament prize pool to win money and risk losing money. While this does happen already and is not perceived as gambling, that reason may only be because its not a widespread phenomenon. Once this becomes popular enough to be taxed, as in people making enough money off of it, there will be a whole shit-storm of other stuff to deal with, such as determining whether or not this would fall under gambling.
    www.rsgaming.com
    NonY
    Profile Blog Joined June 2007
    8748 Posts
    June 18 2010 17:00 GMT
    #219
    On June 19 2010 00:55 Doso wrote:
    Buyin-tournaments don't work in eSports - period.

    Courage tournaments in Korea are buy-in. MLG tournaments in USA are buy-in. KeSPA and MLG have some of the most badass leagues going on in the world.

    Anyway, these automated tournaments wouldn't primarily be for spectators (though I'm sure publicizing the replays could be arranged). Competitive gaming (or eSports if you insist) relies on selling a product. The product is the entertainment of watching the best players compete. These automated tournaments wouldn't be about that. These tournaments would be for the players. So at virtually any time of the day, a competitive player can compete in something more exciting and meaningful than the ladder.
    "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
    tec27
    Profile Blog Joined June 2004
    United States3696 Posts
    June 18 2010 17:04 GMT
    #220
    On June 19 2010 01:51 Liquid`NonY wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 23:48 Full wrote:
    This is gambling. Just because its a game of skill and not luck, does not make this something other than gambling.

    It's definitely not gambling in the US. This is common practice for local LAN tournaments here and tons of kids do it (kids that are not old enough to gamble).

    The only difference would be that the transactions are handled online. But changing the method of payment in this way does not change the nature of the business.

    Its pretty much semantics, but given standard definitions of gambling, it definitely falls under it:

    gamble - take a risk in the hope of a favorable outcome; "When you buy these stocks you are gambling"
    gamble - money that is risked for possible monetary gain
    gamble - play games for money
    gamble - a risky act or venture


    People don't like to use the term 'gambling' however because it has connotations of being completely luck-based, and is blocked by some laws in the US. Really though, quite a few things that are perfectly legal in the US fall under the category of 'gambling', they just have a better public reputation I guess. To make this work, Blizzard would need to avoid ever referring to it as 'gambling' though, and stick to pretty much what they say at VirginGaming, which is stuff that refers to only the skill involved. But I'm sure Blizzard's lawyers could figure it out.
    Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
    crms
    Profile Joined February 2010
    United States11933 Posts
    June 18 2010 17:04 GMT
    #221
    I'm all for it but remove the division requirements.

    shouldn't be able to sandbag even once. buy in tournies open to everyone, if you suck, well you'll lose your money (just like in poker.)

    I just hope this wouldn't take away fun freeroll tournies if you will, similar to the war3 ones. Those were really fun.
    http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
    MorroW
    Profile Joined August 2008
    Sweden3522 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 17:05:31
    June 18 2010 17:05 GMT
    #222
    i dont see how buying tournaments wouldnt work in theory, i think its an awesome idea but need age requirements to play
    Progamerpls no copy pasterino
    50bani
    Profile Blog Joined June 2009
    Romania480 Posts
    June 18 2010 17:05 GMT
    #223
    I apologize for not reading the whole thread, it is too long now I just came in too late

    Sounds like poolsharks. So, in other words been there done that.

    This is not gambling. May be related to sports betting though I am not sure if the law would assimilate it to that.

    Is it worth it? The money games would only be available to 18+ year old players while most players will be under that, so the "traffic" will be low anyway. If Blizzard wants to get more money they can make the game subscription based like WOW, getting minute amounts of rake from a few bet games would not generate much income and implementing this might be a bit of an effort.
    I'm posting on twoplustwo because I have always been amazed at the level of talent that populates this site --- it's almost unparalleled on the Internet.
    Full
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United Kingdom253 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 17:06:51
    June 18 2010 17:06 GMT
    #224
    On June 18 2010 23:53 Imperfex wrote:
    Full, you have to be kidding.

    Have you even Google'd "poker bot"? Go ahead, I'll wait.

    Done? Good.

    I'm not entertaining the thought that Blizzard will implement this for even ONE SECOND (legal headaches = huge nightmare), but it would be awesome, all the same.


    Heh, i've googled them and seen them in action.

    Have you actually played poker though? You don't find profitable bots above 10nl, 25nl if you're lucky.

    Any poker bot you find on google simply doesn't work against anyone with a clue about how to play poker. And the ones which work on the super micro stakes (micro isnt a good thing in poker) cost way more than they are actually worth. You can probably run them on 10 tables for 24 hours a day making 0BB or 1BB/100 and profiting only from rakeback and by the time you make your money back you'll have spent a fortune in electricity or have been banned. Most probably the latter.


    Find me a poker bot that costs less than 2k$ that actually works above 10nl and ill post you a packet of cookies
    Escape
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Canada306 Posts
    June 18 2010 17:22 GMT
    #225
    I like the idea of automated tournaments or small ones, however, monetizing it would be a challenge.

    Maybe using game currency instead of real money would work. Tournaments in different league would award different coins. ie. Gold leagues tourney for gold coins, silver league for silver coins, etc. And there's a exchange rate set between the coins. 1 gold = 5 silver maybe.
    Blizzard can make money from selling coins, like they do in WOW now. and joining tourneys require entry fees in coins. and coins can be used for blizzards gifts and stuff.

    just my $0.02.

    jtgizmo
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Congo161 Posts
    June 18 2010 17:22 GMT
    #226
    On June 18 2010 09:02 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 09:00 Teddyman wrote:
    Biggest obstacle to this: having to take into account the gambling laws of every country and regulate entrance. They would also need a system to pay out winnings. I think MTG Online only gives products and new tournament tickets out as prizes so it works out easier for them.

    I'm curious how the poker world handles this - is there seen to be a difference between contests where chance is involved and ones where it isn't?

    I know Canada (I think it's Canada anyway) can't participate in certain WoW tournaments, but I also know Canadians play poker just fine (tonnes of succesful canadian online poker pros).



    Furthermore you would have to be 18 years old at least maybe 21 at some places, so that would cut out a lot of potential players.
    jtgizmo
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Congo161 Posts
    June 18 2010 17:29 GMT
    #227
    and in general i would be against such idea introduction into sc2
    ChimpyNuts
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United Kingdom50 Posts
    June 18 2010 17:39 GMT
    #228
    I mean what $1 is like 50 p here in Britain, which would buy me NOTHING, perhaps a mars bar if I am lucky, and thats a huge incentive, I couldnt really care about such a little sum of money, and it would make me want to get better at SC2, I find endless laddering dull and unappealing, whilst something like a pay to play tournament would be exciting, sure I wouldnt have much chance, but would give me something to practise for and really up my game.

    I seriously hope Blizzard considers your idea, because I feel it is top notch and can make the game even more 'competitive' , and would really cement its place as the leading e-sports title.
    BillyMole
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States118 Posts
    June 18 2010 17:40 GMT
    #229
    Why does everyone keep saying this shouldn't take the place of free tournaments? Seriously, there are not going to be any free automated tournaments in SC2, period. Yes, they were there in WC3 eight years ago. They will absolutely not be there with the new blizzard. They are unwilling to put in the effort to give us private, self-moderated chat rooms, what makes you think they're going to waste programmer time on something that brings them no return whatsoever?

    The only way they are going to happen would be something like FA just suggested. Frankly, I think that it's a brilliant idea, and would love to see it implemented. However, I think the much more likely route they will take is that they will have regular automated tournaments, but you have to "activate" your account as a tournament account for $X. This will allow you to play in the free automated tournaments. Blizz wins because this makes the programmer effort justified, and people feel like they're competing. The tournaments would probably have no prizes though, because they won't want to deal with the task of constructing a payout system, or any potential legal hassle.

    The end point is that free tournaments are gone with WC3, they're not going to be coming back. Not with the new Blizzard.
    Executioner.zealot
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    United States60 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 17:47:23
    June 18 2010 17:45 GMT
    #230
    On June 18 2010 23:02 Puosu wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 23:00 Executioner.zealot wrote:
    I prefer pay-to-play. I have always found that the software company listens to the masses more when they are getting a reoccurring monthly check from you. And considering Blizzard has grossly missed many reoccurring complaints or suggestions during beta, it might help motivate them to keep people paying.

    WoW?

    Yeah obviously a company is going to work more if they get paid more, however monthly pay in an RTS game is a big no-no. They wouldn't be able to compete in a market where they would be the only ones requesting such huge amounts of money.

    This kind of feature however would make paying optional and even if you're good it would allow you to profit from the game more easily. It wouldn't interfere with the casual players enjoyment at all.

    Yearly or monthly, I dont really care. If I'm going to shell out cash for a game I would rather it be in incriments and get stuf we want in there then in one lump sum and blizzard say "great, got your cash, look for the feedback you gave us being included in 2-5 years when expansion packs come out".

    ..."oh and thats IF we arent distracted by just the content in the expansion pack"
    crms
    Profile Joined February 2010
    United States11933 Posts
    June 18 2010 17:52 GMT
    #231
    On June 19 2010 02:40 BillyMole wrote:

    The end point is that free tournaments are gone with WC3, they're not going to be coming back. Not with the new Blizzard.



    correct me if im wrong i haven't played war3 in some time but don't they still run daily/weekly bnet tournies? No prizes iirc but you qualify, you get placed in a bracket etc. etc.
    http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
    Backpack
    Profile Blog Joined March 2010
    United States1776 Posts
    June 18 2010 18:02 GMT
    #232
    On June 19 2010 02:40 BillyMole wrote:
    Why does everyone keep saying this shouldn't take the place of free tournaments? Seriously, there are not going to be any free automated tournaments in SC2, period. Yes, they were there in WC3 eight years ago. They will absolutely not be there with the new blizzard. They are unwilling to put in the effort to give us private, self-moderated chat rooms, what makes you think they're going to waste programmer time on something that brings them no return whatsoever?


    You havn't been following the news much lately have you?

    We are going to have chat rooms, we are going to have cross-region play and we are going to have identifiers back. Blizzard listens to their fans so quit the whole "new blizzard/activision" conspiracy BS.
    "You people need to just generally care a lot less about everything." -Zatic
    Barnabas
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States74 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 18:06:14
    June 18 2010 18:04 GMT
    #233
    I think the direction of the topic has covered all the major points. Legality, minors, cheating, PR, and the fact that activision-blizzard isn't going to monetize in this way because of those issues.

    I think this has the potential to be a fantastic side application, like a tool used with your starcraft II client kind of like XFIRE where the game launches from the third party app.

    For instance lets say you meet up in the apps lobby and find the game/tourny you're playing in hit a "PLAY" button and it launches bnet puts you into a group with your opponent and then you start the game, the application then saves the replay and records victory/loss.

    Or perhaps the implementation of separate server similar to an iCCup solution.

    The only problem i see with this idea again goes back to the blizzard TOS which prevents you from making anything without blizzard approval and they wouldn't be able too approve for similar reasons why they couldn't do it themselves.

    Honestly the gambler/scII player in me wants this idea to become a reality but I don't see a way of doing it legally and above board. And frankly with such big companies involved I don't see it surviving illegally either.

    And yes online poker is illegal in my state as well. (Illinois) And it is federally illegal to transfer bank funds for the purpose as previously stated.
    I'm Barnabas. You haven't heard of me. Gosu Camp Attendee.
    Hsanrb
    Profile Joined May 2010
    United States46 Posts
    June 18 2010 18:07 GMT
    #234
    I'm all for automated tournaments, but my personal opinion is this...

    1) If there is cash at stake, you must play over lan, or at an internet cafe where there is more certainty over what is going on. HOWEVER, if there is no buy-in then over the internet is fine aka CraftCup. I don't want to trust a third party with my billing information when I could go do a local tournament, pay cash up front, and guarantee my money is actually going to be correctly deducted. Lots of MMO's have destroyed reputation over one bad billing cycle with thousands of errors.

    2) Tournaments don't have to be for cash, why don't you just pull a "lets do a gold only tournament over the weekend, make qualifiers on Saturday where you play matches against those who enter. Top256/512 or so make the playoffs on Sunday, winner/top2/4/8/16 pending on # of entrants get thrown to the front of the promotion bandwagon for Platinum. I could see tournaments for people moving up divisions, and if Blizzard is going ahead with the "pro league" I could see automated tournaments being not only achievement worthy but also a way to make top player prove they deserve to be in this league as opposed to just being a 80% win rate Diamond player. No more having to wait for the stupid system to say "you deserve to move up and stop asking you impatient nub!"

    3) Automated tournaments also can have the advantage of testing things outside of normal play, like a Diamond only tournament to check for balance, testing maps prior to implementation on the ladder, and maybe race/map only events. Never hurts to have a Random 1v1 tournament on Lost Temple for bragging rights. Could help give a sample size for new maps that AREN'T found via the randomness of custom games and in-house.


    I'm not a fan of playing for money over the internet, but automated tournaments is a + for the competitive player looking for a challenge where unlike a ladder you lose a few rating points where you lose twice (double elimination) you are out of the tournament in which more than a # is on the line. Maybe you could even implement a dual ladder system in which tournament play is separated from traditional leagues and you have to be X league to be eligible.
    e4e5nf3
    Profile Blog Joined October 2007
    Canada599 Posts
    June 18 2010 18:10 GMT
    #235
    Even though I would lose the majority of the tourney's I'm all for this idea. Would suck if hackers ruined things though.
    King takes Queen
    Fumble
    Profile Joined May 2010
    156 Posts
    June 18 2010 18:11 GMT
    #236
    This would never happen but I like the idea regardless. I dont think tournaments should be separated by skill level though. It should be just like poker where anyone can join any tournament. Naturally, better players would join games involving higher stakes for more money and lower leveled players would join games involving lower stakes.

    You mentioned how someone would be forced up in divisions if a better player played on a friend's copper account. However what if someone played in high stakes copper games and when they moved up to diamond, simply played low stake games and purposely lose until they went back down to copper?
    gerundium
    Profile Joined June 2010
    Netherlands786 Posts
    June 18 2010 18:20 GMT
    #237
    This is impossible. Gambling act in the Netherlands for example would disallow this deeming it gambling (they deny skill elements in gambling despite overwhelming evidence, so the monopoly position the government has on gambling is maintained) this would cut into revenue severely negating any profits Blizzard makes off it long-term.
    BillyMole
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States118 Posts
    June 18 2010 18:26 GMT
    #238
    On June 19 2010 03:02 Backpack wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 19 2010 02:40 BillyMole wrote:
    Why does everyone keep saying this shouldn't take the place of free tournaments? Seriously, there are not going to be any free automated tournaments in SC2, period. Yes, they were there in WC3 eight years ago. They will absolutely not be there with the new blizzard. They are unwilling to put in the effort to give us private, self-moderated chat rooms, what makes you think they're going to waste programmer time on something that brings them no return whatsoever?


    You havn't been following the news much lately have you?

    We are going to have chat rooms, we are going to have cross-region play and we are going to have identifiers back. Blizzard listens to their fans so quit the whole "new blizzard/activision" conspiracy BS.


    No they don't, the most recent posts have only been reiterations of the same empty promises they've been feeding us for months.

    Chat channels : Will be "a few months after release," for something that would take an intern a day to code. We all know from WC3 that "after release" can mean never. There is not one single good reason for delaying for months something that is trivially easy to do.

    Cross region play is "in our plans." Read : years, if ever.

    I will grant you that the identifiers coming back is a good thing, yes. For the others, this is not conspiracy theory, this is simple trending. How long exactly should we swallow the same promises before we accept that they are never going to follow through?

    Regardless, all of these are off topic. My point was that the free automated WC3 tournament system will not be there in SC2. Everything Blizzard has done to date with SC2 makes perfect sense if you look at it from a solely profit-driven perspective. Implementing free tournaments would not make sense from that perspective, as it's basically wasted programmer effort. Therefore, it will not happen. The only way it will happen will be with either a variant of what FA is proposing here, or more likely, a paid-activation of account to allow tournament play. Either way, it's not free.

    And in answer to your next question, no, chat rooms and cross-region play don't make sense either from a profit-driven perspective. Which is why they're trying to soothe the massive complaining with the same PR promises they've been giving us for months. They could just as easily take a day of intern time and give us private self-moderated chat rooms, you know. Empty promises are cheaper.

    Kletus
    Profile Blog Joined March 2008
    Canada580 Posts
    June 18 2010 18:33 GMT
    #239
    I remember counter-strike:source used to have this "buy-in" thing for matches and if your team would win then you would make a profit; it worked out pretty well.
    Your resistance only serves to make my carapace harder.
    Lysis
    Profile Joined October 2009
    United States147 Posts
    June 18 2010 18:39 GMT
    #240
    It's not so much "gambling" in the traditional sense of the word, but it's just a tournament that happens to have a monetary prize sponsored by a buy-in. In real-life MTG, there's a weekly tournament run by many card shops called Friday Night Magic. Where I used to play, it was a 7 USD buy-in and the prize was that week's special holofoil, alternate-art card. The card itself is worthless monetarily, but it has market value sometimes. Perhaps the tournaments could be run similarly to that, no real monetary prize, but like, say an exclusive Avatar that was deigned just for that week or something. Gives a little more prestige to winning one.
    SC2: Tavyr#340 -- Razer Mamba user -- Don't trust anyone who says Terran is imba.
    Pharow
    Profile Joined May 2010
    United States19 Posts
    June 18 2010 18:40 GMT
    #241
    Incredible Idea. This one just blew me away. To be honest, this idea is too good, it's actually going to hurt me now, because I realize that a system like this is so unlikely to ever exist, despite the clear benefits for all involved.

    Let me put it this way.... if the TL community raises concerns about the ramifications of this idea, you can be damned sure that Blizzard is going to be raining red flags when they consider it.
    Renaissance
    Profile Blog Joined January 2009
    Canada273 Posts
    June 18 2010 18:44 GMT
    #242
    Why do I have a feeling that something like this is hard to code for Blizzard? They can't even create a reconnect feature on BNET, and many older games have that feature. But it's a great thing if they actually do try to create something like this.
    Live forever or die trying.
    Lysis
    Profile Joined October 2009
    United States147 Posts
    June 18 2010 19:02 GMT
    #243
    On June 19 2010 03:44 Renaissance wrote:
    Why do I have a feeling that something like this is hard to code for Blizzard? They can't even create a reconnect feature on BNET, and many older games have that feature. But it's a great thing if they actually do try to create something like this.


    A re-connect feature would be practically useless in a RTS game. Once you disconnect, it's like leaving the game. I would understand something like that being in FPS, where you can easily resume what you were doing. It's a lot harder to get back on track with an RTS, and once you disconnect, the game ends, simple as that.
    SC2: Tavyr#340 -- Razer Mamba user -- Don't trust anyone who says Terran is imba.
    ashaman771
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Canada114 Posts
    June 18 2010 19:06 GMT
    #244
    There might be legal issues with this, since it could be seen as gambling.
    The Dead Room Podcast, check it out!
    ChewbroCColi
    Profile Joined July 2009
    Denmark108 Posts
    June 18 2010 19:13 GMT
    #245
    On June 19 2010 02:05 MorroW wrote:
    i dont see how buying tournaments wouldnt work in theory, i think its an awesome idea but need age requirements to play


    This.

    Awesome Idea btw Jinro
    Sadistx
    Profile Blog Joined February 2009
    Zimbabwe5568 Posts
    June 18 2010 19:17 GMT
    #246
    On June 19 2010 04:02 Lysis wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 19 2010 03:44 Renaissance wrote:
    Why do I have a feeling that something like this is hard to code for Blizzard? They can't even create a reconnect feature on BNET, and many older games have that feature. But it's a great thing if they actually do try to create something like this.


    A re-connect feature would be practically useless in a RTS game. Once you disconnect, it's like leaving the game. I would understand something like that being in FPS, where you can easily resume what you were doing. It's a lot harder to get back on track with an RTS, and once you disconnect, the game ends, simple as that.


    Both you and the person who you quoted are wrong.

    It would be just as easy as facebook (paypal) integration.

    And yes, the reconnect feature is extremely useful and not that hard to do, as HoN showed it.
    Renaissance
    Profile Blog Joined January 2009
    Canada273 Posts
    June 18 2010 19:26 GMT
    #247
    Firstly, programming something like this with gaming is not just a simple PayPal integration. You have a lot of numbers to crunch, but that's not the point I was trying to get across. Battle.net is supposed to "revolutionize" online gaming and it still glitches up on simple features. From that I am making a statement that Blizzard will have a hard time designing this. If I recall correctly, one of the Blizzard representatives said that a reconnect feature is something that would be difficult.

    Also, even Blizzard employees were looking at the StarCraft rankings site to see their own stats... that's when you know something is up.
    Live forever or die trying.
    Caspor
    Profile Joined June 2010
    Austria18 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 19:32:18
    June 18 2010 19:31 GMT
    #248
    the idea itself is very appealing, but i have some serious concerns about some practical issues that will pretty sure come up with this.

    first and foremost hackers/cheaters would be a huge problem. especially because theres real money in play, i guess there would be even legal issues because thats kind of fraud, hence antihack tools would be mandatory wich could lead to some false positives if someone has just a launcher or other 3rd party program installed without actually cheating.

    just some random thoughts

    sry for bad english
    cloudJR
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    United States266 Posts
    June 18 2010 19:40 GMT
    #249
    It's a cool idea, but it would never happen. SC isn't known as a gambling franchise nor do I think that is an avenue they are looking into.
    All I can hear are thousands of children screaming imbalance.......
    palanq
    Profile Blog Joined December 2004
    United States761 Posts
    June 18 2010 20:07 GMT
    #250
    You could have automated tournaments without a prize-pool, but instead for the "achievement points" that you get, those little shield things. Wouldn't be profitable or anything, but I can't really imagine my gold-league or below friends wanting to put down even a few dollars for a tournament. Besides that, it seems like a bad PR move to do anything with actual money....

    Who knows, though. I would say do the tourneys with achievement points and see if having automated buy-in tournaments alongside it makes sense after that has been going for a while... or implement both at once.
    time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana
    Caspor
    Profile Joined June 2010
    Austria18 Posts
    June 18 2010 20:24 GMT
    #251
    i am pretty sure blizzard had already discussed this with an army of their lawyers and business experts and came to the conclusion that it would not be doable or worth it at this time else they would have just done it already.

    dont think they are not smart enough to at least have considered that idea by now.

    there actually was a shooter with that kind of model but i forgot the name and i read it was pretty bad, never played it and forgot the name.

    but i think its just a matter of time if they find a way to solve the major problems we may see this eventually.
    Zapperkhan
    Profile Joined October 2008
    United States436 Posts
    June 18 2010 20:44 GMT
    #252
    If they separate it to a new realm. Kinda like how they do the online Tournament Realm for World of Warcraft. I see it as feasible. But this is a big beast for Blizzard. It's something they'd delegate to another company to oversee, or create a new entity to handle.
    yomi
    Profile Blog Joined June 2004
    United States773 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 20:54:13
    June 18 2010 20:49 GMT
    #253
    It's a fantastic idea but will likely generate a large amount of negative press for the game. People think competing for money is gambling, regardless of how much skill is involved in the game, or how low the stakes are. Also there could be issues with the UIGEA.


    We could set up a mini forum to organize cash tournaments within the TL community. Have trusted escrows and xfer the money via Pstars. It could be an issue to have tournaments that are profitable or breakeven for players that are not A class but in poker the different stakes seem to self regulate this. I doubt a really top player would invade a $1 tournament meant for gold level players.
    aka_star
    Profile Blog Joined July 2007
    United Kingdom1546 Posts
    June 18 2010 20:57 GMT
    #254
    The risk of hackers is to much and game fixing, putting money into the scheme of things creates an incentive for someone to cheat. Some would argue that a drone scouting cross map on kulas and stealing the T's gas is a sign of hack when innocent, either way a complaint will take time to look over, eventually become too costly to police and so much data being client side its unlikely ever work as smoothly as intended.
    FlashDave.999 aka Star
    VIB
    Profile Blog Joined November 2007
    Brazil3567 Posts
    June 18 2010 21:15 GMT
    #255
    Map Hacks can be 100% eliminated by having the server host intermediate the games instead of having a direct p2p connection between the players. Instead of having the full map unit data on the client-side only obscured by the fog of war in memory. You could completely hide that information from the client, then only feed what the client needs to know from the server hosting the game.

    So you could have a game that is mathematically uncheatable.

    But I doubt Activision would ever make SC2 uncheatable, since they would need to invest a large amount of resource in preparing the game engine and the server hardware infra-structure to support this. And quoting the activision COO "We don't invest in areas the gamers don't see and don't care about.". And most players feel like this:
    On June 18 2010 10:35 FrozenArbiter wrote:
    Read up on the AbsolutePoker super user scandal.

    Yes, there'll always be hacks - I don't care, there'll always be people using steroids in sports. Should we stop all sports?
    Then they will still play even tho there are cheaters.

    So my prediction is that they will eventually implement sit-n-go. About half of the players will cheat to make money. But people will still play, pay and make them a lot of money.
    Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
    crate
    Profile Blog Joined May 2009
    United States2474 Posts
    June 18 2010 21:21 GMT
    #256
    I don't forsee any real legal problems.

    Wizards of the Coast can host pay-to-enter MTG tournaments; how is that any different from hosting pay-to-enter SC2 tournaments?

    I think this is a great idea, and personally I'm still astonished by the fact that starcraft tourneys don't generally have entry fees. Coming from a community where every pot ever except for a brief stint with MLG (Melee) was from player entry fees....
    We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
    koppik
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States676 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 21:56:29
    June 18 2010 21:52 GMT
    #257
    It only sounds like gambling because the system is taken directly from online poker.

    There are three elements to gambling: consideration, prize and chance. This system has consideration (the entrance fee) and prize, but it's hard to say there is a substantive enough element of chance in the games. At least, that's the US. Maybe some other countries have a looser definition of gambling, since what constitutes a "substantive element of chance" is so debatable.

    Anyhow, I think this would do a lot to reward people playing starcraft competitively.

    ImAbstracT
    Profile Blog Joined June 2010
    519 Posts
    June 18 2010 21:53 GMT
    #258
    On June 18 2010 09:06 kineSiS- wrote:
    This would be interesting... but this is also gambling.

    Gambling is described as: Gambling is the of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period.

    Gambling is illegal in most states, so it is called gaming. Thats how it is in Louisiana, and we are known for our casinos. Then there is the whole game of chance vs the game of skill thing.
    "I want you to take a moment, and reflect, on how much of a failure you are" - IdrA
    DarKFoRcE
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    Germany1215 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 22:14:31
    June 18 2010 22:14 GMT
    #259
    I like the idea, if it turns out to suck, noone is forced to use it, but i think it might actually be a quite nice feature.
    Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
    gerundium
    Profile Joined June 2010
    Netherlands786 Posts
    June 18 2010 22:19 GMT
    #260
    UIGEA, and several other countries will probably use this kind of system to ban the game, costing them millions in revenue. They would not risk something like this, it can backfire very easily.
    square .
    Profile Joined June 2010
    Spain28 Posts
    June 18 2010 22:40 GMT
    #261
    I guess over a hundred people will have said this already, but i find this system useless until you are 100% sure that the game is clean of cheaters.
    Gryffes
    Profile Blog Joined March 2010
    United Kingdom763 Posts
    June 18 2010 22:44 GMT
    #262
    Havn't read the entire thread, but to respond to OP:

    Gambling on games where the edge for either player is obvious doesn't last very long at all - the bad players go broke too fast. The reason poker and similar games are popular and longlasting due to player skill giving an edge is that the variance masks the edge to the bad players.

    The skill gap in SC2 is far far too big for any long term success as a raked game.
    www.youtube.com/gryffes - Random Gaming Videos.
    Tdelamay
    Profile Joined October 2009
    Canada548 Posts
    June 18 2010 23:17 GMT
    #263
    I like the idea, but I wouldn't put money down for extra tournament. I think it could be a good way of promoting the game in a competitive way.
    This road isn't leading anywhere...
    arnold(soTa)
    Profile Joined March 2010
    Sweden352 Posts
    June 18 2010 23:19 GMT
    #264
    On June 19 2010 07:44 Luckbox wrote:
    Havn't read the entire thread, but to respond to OP:

    Gambling on games where the edge for either player is obvious doesn't last very long at all - the bad players go broke too fast. The reason poker and similar games are popular and longlasting due to player skill giving an edge is that the variance masks the edge to the bad players.

    The skill gap in SC2 is far far too big for any long term success as a raked game.


    but did you read the OP atleast?
    He (jinro) suggested that they were based around leagues, and yes I know there is skilldifference in leagues, but once the game is in retail and the ladder(s) have settled this will be less of an issue, and after all, he talked about 1$ and 2$ entries, this is not a huge price.

    additionally, if you win many tournaments, you wont be able (hopefully) to be placed in tournaments with gold leaguers... this seems only logical.

    The goal of this is to keep competetive gamers intrested, ladder isnt really that intressting to players who mass and mass games.
    After all its they who will bring this game forward as a spectator sport, no is gonna watch arnoldatgym vs player on TV, they want to see jinro vs slayers_jaedong
    "I like turtles"
    kael13
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United Kingdom48 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-18 23:39:50
    June 18 2010 23:38 GMT
    #265
    This is awesome. And is controversial enough to get SC2 into the news. It'd be amazing.

    This should be posted over on SC2GDF...
    Blood! Death! War! Rumpy pumpy! Triumph!
    Ryuu314
    Profile Joined October 2009
    United States12679 Posts
    June 18 2010 23:52 GMT
    #266
    I'd pay a dollar to play in a tournament, why not? I mean if it's small tourneys that are closed one way, then I'd say I'd prolly have a decent shot at winning some money.

    It's like poker; you don't pay, you don't win.
    heishe
    Profile Blog Joined June 2009
    Germany2284 Posts
    June 19 2010 00:07 GMT
    #267
    it's a nice idea, but it will never work various reasons.

    first of all, there will be a rush of players in the first few weeks, but literally noone would play the tournaments later on except those who are sure that they have a BIG chance of winning. by big, I mean like 80-100% sure. in a really tough field, not even the pros will try to play these tournaments if they aren't sure that they are going to win. after all, who wants to participate in something when he can be sure that will most likely lose the money? the waiting time for the tournament to fill up will become so long that people start unregistering again. and you can't really compare that to poker since poker gives the perfect illusion of having a realistic chance to win, since first most players don't really have a realistic view of how good they are (everybody overestimates their skills), plus it's a game where you really can win a large sum with "a little" luck-timing (see jamie gold, that asian whose name I already forgot who prayed at the final table of the ME, plus of course the hundreds of donkeys who win tournaments at every pokersite every day).

    second, yes obv. there would be problems with the games rating and even its legality in some countries.

    thirdly, the availability of some kind of micropayment system within the game is going to get Blizzard and Activision onto some really evil ideas T_T. better not stretch the patience of the shareholders.

    next, the lower league tournaments would be really exploitable. if there was really a large amount of tournaments, Blizzard would have to hire a shitload of investigators to keep the games clean, which is never going to happen. if they get paid only 20k a year, which is ridiculously low, only 5 of them (which again is a ridiculously low number) will cost blizzard 100k, which is MUCH, MUCH more than those money-tournaments will bring in for Blizzard.
    If you value your soul, never look into the eye of a horse. Your soul will forever be lost in the void of the horse.
    zergporn
    Profile Joined April 2010
    Estonia156 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-19 00:21:22
    June 19 2010 00:18 GMT
    #268
    just one question:
    who will generally bring money? who are those nice guys that will constantly feed the system? everyone want make money off this, but who will bring money on?
    my skill sucks, i wont.
    there are alot of poker players who love to lose a couple dollars evening after work, these are ones that feed the system, and still overall winrate of average smart poker player is tiny these days, yea rake blablabla.

    edit: nevermore, if the main goal of the idea is just to make the game more popular and stuff - than its ok for sure.
    still i will never pay a single dollar to play tournament where i dont have clear edge, i won't donate my dollar to some random gosu player, id better directly donate it to my fav caster whatever, the guy who i know at least.
    the game changes as you get higher
    cocosoft
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Sweden1068 Posts
    June 19 2010 00:20 GMT
    #269
    On June 19 2010 07:40 square . wrote:
    I guess over a hundred people will have said this already, but i find this system useless until you are 100% sure that the game is clean of cheaters.
    Which isn't the case at the moment because the game isn't fully server-sided ._.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    MidKnight
    Profile Joined December 2008
    Lithuania884 Posts
    June 19 2010 00:30 GMT
    #270
    On June 18 2010 23:24 Smu wrote:
    They don't ban lottery because it is perfectly casual and not that harmless and devastating on the short run (altho it will cost you money in the long run). But most of all, lottery doesn't create addiction that drives people into very unhealthy behavior, which gambling and poker often do. Don't pretend you don't realize this.

    edit: also, lottery is usually national, horses and such as well, while online poker sites can be anywhere, creating money drains from countries where people play a lot to countries where poker rooms are. Australia is a good example.


    Yea, but for some reason they don't ban casinos, where most games are 100% luck based AND can cause gambling addictions.
    Lottery essentially GUARANTEES you will lose money.
    It chips away at people finances slowly, but it's a sure loss in the long run, except for lucky few.

    I'm sure that a lot of people wouldn't take an offer to flip a coin with 10 to 1 odds to just win their money back, yet those "pay few bucks and win a million!" lotteries are encouraged and advertised..

    Just sayin'
    nam nam
    Profile Joined June 2010
    Sweden4672 Posts
    June 19 2010 00:31 GMT
    #271
    I would support sit-and-go tournaments that you sign up for and start to play once all seats have been filled. Skip the prize money though as it only creates problems imo. Why not give out achievement awards for a win?
    Soap
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    Brazil1546 Posts
    June 19 2010 00:39 GMT
    #272
    No gosu player would smurf forever to play one dollar tournaments. Once they get money they will want to play for more. I doubt guys like the owner of Cirque du Soleil (who dumped several million dollars on high stakes poker games) believe they have a shot at beating the best, they do it because its FUN. I'm sure SCII can be too.
    MD_Vegetables
    Profile Joined June 2010
    United States43 Posts
    June 19 2010 00:50 GMT
    #273
    Take this as you may, but my post is coming from the perspective of a new and not at all skilled Starcraft 2 player (copper league). I personally think that this is a great idea and seems extremely well thought out, and I have a few thoughts and perspectives to augment this:

    1) I don't really think this system could really be called gambling. In a way that is exactly what this is, but I don't think that it should have such negative connotations associated with it. As a golf enthusiast, I often play in tournaments where there is a pay-to-play fee that helps cover the services provided by the course and staff, as well as supplying a nice prize for the winner. Everyone that enters these tournaments does so with the knowledge that the best golfer will win and that a minimal amount of luck is actually involved - much as would be the case with Starcraft 2. The interesting part is that mostly skill is involved in golf tournaments, as well as a significant time commitment (the better part of a day anyhow), so it is not really addicting (whereas poker combines a great deal of skill with a great deal of luck, leading to the illusion that lesser players can win, thus creating an addiction that lures people to continue to play and risk their money following a quick loss). The combined effect of these factors is that no one associates such tournaments with gambling, and so, they don't receive the negative connotations that come with such an idea.

    These same factors could be applied to automated Starcraft 2 tournaments over Battle.net 2.0. Individuals would enter with the knowledge that the tournament is optional, has an entrance fee associated with it (this could be scaled depending on how Blizzard wants to run the tournaments), and that the highest likelihood is that the best player in the tournament will come away as the victor. The lack of luck involved with a Starcraft 2 victory dissuades weaker players who just lost from immediately joining another tournament and further losing money on a whim, thinking they are bound to win as soon as luck swings their way. Additionally, Blizzard could very easily set caps on the winnings and entrance fees via an automated system, as well as cap the number of tournaments one can play in in a certain window of time, thereby minimizing the amount of money one can lose and basically removing the association of gambling with such a system.

    Now of course I am not sure how all of the laws centered around gambling work in America, let alone the rest of the world that is reached by Battle.net 2.0, but by the sound of it, Blizzard has done the same thing with World of Warcraft - the move to Starcraft just needs to be put into motion.

    2) My perspective as a lower-tier player lends me a perspective that I feel might be missing from these forums to some degree, essentially because the majority of the community is composed of high-tier to professional players. I recently had the pleasure of watching the HDH Invitational, as well as many of the Zotac Cup matches that were covered by Day[9] (much love), and it made me yearn to play in a tournament. Not one where I could lose a bunch of money of course, but one mostly for fun where if I stepped up my game, I could potentially win a few bones on top of having a blast (I suppose I equate it to paying for entertainment, much like going to the movies). However, I think it is nearly impossible for lower-tier players to get into such tournaments - it would be really boring to watch them, and they would just get stomped by the professionals anyways. However, if at least some tournaments were set up in divisions with just a small entry fee, I think it would generate a lot excitement and get more people involved and having fun playing competitively. I know that I am certainly not a skilled player (but I'm getting a bit better with YABOT!), but I can honestly say that I would definitely pay a small fee from time to time (ranging from free to <$5-10) to play in an automated tournament with people around my skill level, with the hopes of having fun and possibly winning a bit of money.

    Also, I admit that it won't be easy to set up and regulate (especially with many cheating options available), but if done correctly, I think it could become an integral part of Battle.net 2.0 and yet another feature that sets Starcraft 2 apart from the others. Great idea FrozenArbiter! It would be interesting to compile the different perspectives from this thread and send it to Blizzard.
    "50 seconds is a lifetime - seriously, most dogs are born, have puppies, and die in the time it takes to build a Reactor is Starcraft 2." - Day[9]
    zedrOne
    Profile Joined May 2010
    France471 Posts
    June 19 2010 00:53 GMT
    #274
    a rakeback system for very active player could make even not "top player" to get a positive ROI.

    LockeTazeline October 31 2012 06:02. Posts 166 : A Bo9 is really just a Bo1 played 9 times.
    Skeyser
    Profile Joined June 2010
    Canada219 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-19 00:56:49
    June 19 2010 00:54 GMT
    #275
    Blizzard are already doing something similar with WOW, you have to pay 20$ to get into the arena tournament and the best teams have a chance at winning money. Many countries and states are either excluded or have an alternative no-fee way to enter the competition because of legal issues I believe.

    So a system like you're suggesting would surely cause problem with those countries and states. I could be wrong though, just thought I'd mention it.

    http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/tournament/legal.xml
    knyttym
    Profile Blog Joined December 2006
    United States5797 Posts
    June 19 2010 01:03 GMT
    #276
    For the purpose of antihack, I think the below system can work.

    So first off have the replays automatically update to the blizzard server. This is prevents players from "losing" the replay in question. Blizzard already wanted to implement something like this for proleague so why not do it in tournaments. The uploaded replays do not have to be made public. After some set period they can be deleted to make space for new uploads. If they don't want a constant upload then have tournament admins can collect reps.

    The tournament admin will have access to the replay in question and can DL it from Blizzard's server. After watching and suspecting something from the rep, the admin can then refer it to some sub-forum where it will be examined by a trusted individual or player. This way anyone can hold tournaments but they don't have the power to randomly disqualify players they do not like.

    The 2nd examiner if not employed by blizzard can be paid like .05$ for each replays watched and commented on. The comments must be in detail so someone cannot skim a replay and say random things for the purpose of earning money. Perhaps increase the payment for length of replay (.01$ for 5 minute replay .05$ for 30 minutes). This examiner will then make the final decision on whether or not the player is disqualified from the tournament winnings. If hacking is repeated then they can refer to blizzard for ban. For the first players allowed as examiners, have large gaming sites (tl for example) recommend trusted people.
    AlienAlias
    Profile Joined June 2009
    United States324 Posts
    June 19 2010 01:13 GMT
    #277
    I foresee two problems:

    First, the issue with matching player skill at lower skill levels. This really doesn't seem possible to minimize smurfing enough to make the event enjoyable; after all, it just takes 1 diamond level player in the 128 people to sweep the entire tournament. For example, I play at a diamond league level terran. When I first buy the game I could lose my 5 initial matches and be put in bronze. Then, I start winning tournaments for money. At some point, maybe just 1 tournament, it would elevate my skill. You could say it stops there, but that wouldn't really be true; bringing a player from bronze to diamond for winning 1 or 2 tournaments isn't fair in the least. So now I would dominate silver tournaments. Then gold. Then platinum. Then, finally, I reach my own skill level at diamond.

    Even if these winnings don't earn enough to purchase another CD-key, I could have gotten all this money super easy just because I was planning to buy the game anyways. Then, I could make an offer on my facebook (now linked with bnet!) to earn some money split 50/50 for anyone planning to buy sc2.



    The second issue would be time. It's not feasible to have a 6 or 8 round tournament proceed all in one sitting, because a single slow match in the ro32 could delay the next round by an hour. With this in mind, each round would have to be scheduled at a different time, which would alienate a lot of your more casual gamers who would have conflicting schedules. (Aren't sit n gos just 1 round with a full table and blinds increasing every few minutes/hands? i just remember there's some way that prevents it from taking too long. But nothing stops that in a mined out TvT with giant roaming armies guarding final flying buildings.)


    Anyways, my thoughts are, besides a few possible issues arising, it's a great idea that could help promote e-sports.
    Typho0n
    Profile Blog Joined November 2008
    Canada276 Posts
    June 19 2010 01:25 GMT
    #278
    I was looking through a couple of posts, and someone said something about smurfs losing 5 games to be put into another league. This point may have already been addressed, but I think that if these tournaments were to go down it should have no level boundaries. If you want to play in a paying tournament, you better be good. It's basically like the poker example. I wouldn't go into a poker tournament because I'm crap at poker. As long as the game is free from cheaters, I don't see why this could be a bad idea. It's a cool option I wouldnt mind having.

    (sorry if someone already said this I didnt look through all 14 pgs)
    Laggy
    Profile Blog Joined May 2010
    United States385 Posts
    June 19 2010 01:44 GMT
    #279
    I really really like this idea, I support it 100%. However I think it would be nice to have what was said before of the free tournaments from copper to gold, and once you have reached platinum league rating it will give you 1 Frequent player point to get you started. With this players would be able to practice up all the way to platinum, without sand bagging (exploiting lower leagues). And once you win a platinum league you get put into the diamond league. If this has been posted I apologize, anyways I fully support this idea, just like any idea it will have problems that will have to be ironed out but hopefully we will one day see this implemented the sooner the better!
    D on iccup stands for diamond in SC2
    Mennethitus
    Profile Joined June 2010
    United States4 Posts
    June 19 2010 02:39 GMT
    #280
    The real problem for me is an issue someone had brought up a couple weeks ago: Macro keys on keyboards and mice.

    Someone mentioned that with one press of a key they could have all their queens puking larvae. Now thats just the most basic use, but even this *small* benefit can amount to quite a large advantage.
    So these unofficial tournaments where your hardware and corresponding software is not examined are extremely vulnerable to such *cheating.*
    Alternity
    Profile Blog Joined June 2010
    United States74 Posts
    June 19 2010 05:15 GMT
    #281
    I think this is a very interesting idea, and I'd love to see it implemented.

    One way to get around the problem of smurfing accounts is to require a mininum number of games played to particpate. Maybe 150 ladder games played or so. This would also help protect the n00bs who don't know any better (who think because they're rank 1 in silver that they stand a chance).

    As far as the legalities it looks like as Skeyser pointed out that Bliz is essentially already doing these sorts of tournaments on WoW and has already worked out the legalities of it in its tournament agreement:
    http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/tournament/legal.xml

    I think plenty of people would be interested in particpating, even if they knew that they were very unlikely to win just for the fun of the tournament. Having a little money on the line helps to spice things up!
    FiWiFaKi
    Profile Blog Joined February 2009
    Canada9858 Posts
    June 19 2010 05:32 GMT
    #282
    I think it's a great idea, I really don't know who minds playing some games for a dollar but overall it sounds great, competition would be fierce, more motivation. The only slight downside I see it would be a bit confusing with paypal info etc, but I do think it's the right way to go, StarCraft in general doesn't get much attention besides in Korea so that way prize pools are funded by the players often, but I think it would be fun and competive. If a buy-in of 2 dollars is alot for you, then I don't know... But I do think it's a step in the right direction.
    In life, the journey is more satisfying than the destination. || .::Entrepreneurship::. Living a few years of your life like most people won't, so that you can spend the rest of your life like most people can't || Mechanical Engineering & Economics Major
    Special Endrey
    Profile Joined June 2010
    Germany1929 Posts
    June 19 2010 10:29 GMT
    #283
    i don't like this idea at all,

    i dont like the comparison with poker either.

    poker is about money (or at least about something to win, could also be who cleans the dishes or whatever) -

    starcraft in my opinion is about about the game itself, not about getting money or something else to win -

    i also dont think that the argument of losing money like

    People are going to lose money overall from playing SC2 no matter what you do, short of making the game free.
    People lose money from WoW overall.
    People lose money from having an internet connection overall.



    i think we all agree we play starcraft for fun. the hardcore pro players are able to earn some money "just for playing" the game. thats fine with me, i also like the e-sports stuff with tourney, sponsors etc. im also okay with poeple making their living just by playing the game.

    BUT

    i think adding a system like this, would be something like gambling.
    the majority ones who will suffer (lose money) are the not so good players who will lose their money. thats how the big poker industry works and thats how the indusrty behind sc2 will work OF we would have such a system implemented. it will destroy the community as how it is now or at least will split them apart



    people who want to earn some money with the game are able to do so right now and even more after the release of the game, so if that could be an intention for this system , theres just no need if you are good enough at the game AND are able to talk to the right people the right way


    This signature is ruining eSports - -Twitter: @SpecialEndrey
    teamsolid
    Profile Joined October 2007
    Canada3668 Posts
    June 19 2010 10:34 GMT
    #284
    Implementing something like this would probably get SC2 banned in several countries just like poker sites. Honestly, even though I would love to see something like this, the chances are next to nil that it would ever happen.
    Ghostcom
    Profile Joined March 2010
    Denmark4782 Posts
    June 19 2010 10:38 GMT
    #285
    What if the money incitament was removed? I think having tournaments for all levels of players in itself will be an incredibly nice feature.
    StarStruck
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    25339 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-19 12:00:10
    June 19 2010 11:40 GMT
    #286
    On June 19 2010 01:51 Liquid`NonY wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 18 2010 23:48 Full wrote:
    This is gambling. Just because its a game of skill and not luck, does not make this something other than gambling.

    It's definitely not gambling in the US. This is common practice for local LAN tournaments here and tons of kids do it (kids that are not old enough to gamble).

    The only difference would be that the transactions are handled online. But changing the method of payment in this way does not change the nature of the business.


    Hate to break it to you Tyler but every legislative body would call it otherwise and unfortunately they don't care what we think. If Blizzard takes any rake, even the smallest fraction of the buy-in and Blizzard profits from it. They'll be all over it, wanting a piece of the pie. When you globalize something like this you ought to be very careful. It's okay to have a game of poker with your friends back at your place as long as know one knows about it. You think they have any idea of what we do at a LAN? Nope. It's small scale.

    Sure, we have buy-ins. However, there is no 'real' profit. Whatever money comes in goes right back into the system. The revenue generated goes right back into the system for the next tournament. In other words, it's non-profit.


    To repeat, the government(s) wouldn't care what we think. It would be labeled as an illegal gambling activity and as such, the Gaming Commissions would shut it down. It's fine to have a card game back at your place with your friends as long as no one else knows about it. It's still an illegal practice. You put something out in the open like this where Blizzard would be making pebbles off of it and every government in existence would be all over it.
    figq
    Profile Blog Joined May 2010
    12519 Posts
    June 19 2010 15:07 GMT
    #287
    There are probably two main incentives for playing Starcraft:
    - to win
    - to be creative and have fun

    Introducing paid tournaments would put more emphasis on the first incentive. People will argue that this is going to make players better, but it's also very likely that it's going to make them dirtier, cheesier, and more stereotypical than ever. Eventually, the creative part of the community will have to move on to other games, if that happens - just as it was with the rise of BW.
    If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
    NonY
    Profile Blog Joined June 2007
    8748 Posts
    June 19 2010 15:24 GMT
    #288
    On June 19 2010 20:40 StarStruck wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 19 2010 01:51 Liquid`NonY wrote:
    On June 18 2010 23:48 Full wrote:
    This is gambling. Just because its a game of skill and not luck, does not make this something other than gambling.

    It's definitely not gambling in the US. This is common practice for local LAN tournaments here and tons of kids do it (kids that are not old enough to gamble).

    The only difference would be that the transactions are handled online. But changing the method of payment in this way does not change the nature of the business.


    Hate to break it to you Tyler but every legislative body would call it otherwise and unfortunately they don't care what we think. If Blizzard takes any rake, even the smallest fraction of the buy-in and Blizzard profits from it. They'll be all over it, wanting a piece of the pie. When you globalize something like this you ought to be very careful. It's okay to have a game of poker with your friends back at your place as long as know one knows about it. You think they have any idea of what we do at a LAN? Nope. It's small scale.

    Sure, we have buy-ins. However, there is no 'real' profit. Whatever money comes in goes right back into the system. The revenue generated goes right back into the system for the next tournament. In other words, it's non-profit.


    To repeat, the government(s) wouldn't care what we think. It would be labeled as an illegal gambling activity and as such, the Gaming Commissions would shut it down. It's fine to have a card game back at your place with your friends as long as no one else knows about it. It's still an illegal practice. You put something out in the open like this where Blizzard would be making pebbles off of it and every government in existence would be all over it.

    Eh it doesn't really matter what the legislative bodies would call it. If anything, it'd be up to judicial bodies. And of course the legislative bodies do care what we think since we elect them. The other thing they care about is what big businesses think. So we're covered either way, not that it matters.

    Gambling isn't entirely illegal, either. Even if it is labeled as gambling by whatever judge hears the case, it doesn't automatically mean that it can't exist.

    Every game and competition that funds an event with entry fees is not considered gambling. They're not all too small to be noticed, either.

    Even if the line gets very blurry here, for whatever reason, Blizzard is not without the power to fight in court. Of course, this would have to be a pretty important thing to Blizzard to use those kinds of resources on it, but it's possible.
    "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
    jdobrev
    Profile Blog Joined February 2010
    Bulgaria162 Posts
    June 19 2010 15:44 GMT
    #289
    as OP said, you won't HAVE to play in those tournaments. These would be for just those who wish to play for the money/pride. And yeah, I love the idea. It will attract even more people. A lot more people with put in the effort to get better and better having another motivation to work for. Though it will have its downsides because people will be losing and doing weird stuff, I think that overall it's going to help the growth and development of the community.
    crimsonsentinel
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States179 Posts
    June 19 2010 18:58 GMT
    #290
    I think Blizzard, and more specifically Activision are trying to find ways to monetize in exactly the way you mention. That's why they're working so hard to limit player smurfing as well as limit regions (to avoid issues with international trade laws here).

    For those who are worried about better players beating up on lesser players: In poker, the money automatically stratifies players. Why would a good player waste 6 hours of his time to win a $10 tournament? In the same vein, why would a bad player waste his money on a high stakes tournament he has no shot of winning? I don't see a need to have separate tournaments for each bracket. Just have different levels of buy-ins and maybe add a skill cap for the lowest one or two tourneys (for the casuals :V).
    StarStruck
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    25339 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-19 19:08:40
    June 19 2010 19:04 GMT
    #291
    Of course it would be up to the courts, but that's that other problem: I don't think Blizzard would want to tie resources into this kind of legal battle. It would be a lengthy process and who knows what the opportunity cost could be.

    The major problem is what Blizzard would be raking in and who would collect.

    I for one, love gambling. As much as I would want to see a feature like this implemented, it just isn't feasible at the moment.
    TheYango
    Profile Joined September 2008
    United States47024 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-19 19:19:11
    June 19 2010 19:15 GMT
    #292
    On June 19 2010 14:15 Alternity wrote:
    I think this is a very interesting idea, and I'd love to see it implemented.

    One way to get around the problem of smurfing accounts is to require a mininum number of games played to particpate. Maybe 150 ladder games played or so. This would also help protect the n00bs who don't know any better (who think because they're rank 1 in silver that they stand a chance).

    As far as the legalities it looks like as Skeyser pointed out that Bliz is essentially already doing these sorts of tournaments on WoW and has already worked out the legalities of it in its tournament agreement:
    http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/tournament/legal.xml

    I think plenty of people would be interested in particpating, even if they knew that they were very unlikely to win just for the fun of the tournament. Having a little money on the line helps to spice things up!

    This.

    Those who keep saying this is like gambling, it already exists in other non-gambling games, WoW and Magic: The Gathering being the ones already mentioned. MTGO has a reasonably similar way of handling small 8 person draft tournaments (you basically use in-game tickets to buy into a draft, but the tickets convert directly to the value of $1 USD, so the difference between that and this system is basically one of semantics).

    If handing out real cash is the issue, then there are plenty of ways Blizzard can handle small tournament rewards without actually using cash rewards (Blizzard Store credit, etc.).
    Moderator
    crimsonsentinel
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States179 Posts
    June 19 2010 19:16 GMT
    #293
    Seriously guys, Starcraft is not a game of chance and therefore does not count as gambling.
    Plethora
    Profile Joined July 2007
    United States206 Posts
    June 19 2010 19:22 GMT
    #294
    On June 20 2010 00:07 figq wrote:
    There are probably two main incentives for playing Starcraft:
    - to win
    - to be creative and have fun

    Introducing paid tournaments would put more emphasis on the first incentive. People will argue that this is going to make players better, but it's also very likely that it's going to make them dirtier, cheesier, and more stereotypical than ever. Eventually, the creative part of the community will have to move on to other games, if that happens - just as it was with the rise of BW.



    This.

    It's a fine line, and I could be wrong, but if pay-to-play tournaments were readily available 24/7 then for far too many players for my liking the whole game suddenly revolves around winning as opposed to having fun. Often times winning and having fun are one in the same, but not always, and in those not always scenarios I really really want Bnet to focus on fun over profit.

    I am not opposed to having semi-regular pay tourneys, even weekly ones, but having them available at all times is not good in my book.
    ... Still like Brood War better... lol
    Snowfield
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    1289 Posts
    June 19 2010 19:41 GMT
    #295
    This would be epic tbh
    infinity2k9
    Profile Blog Joined January 2009
    United Kingdom2397 Posts
    June 19 2010 19:51 GMT
    #296
    Starcraft 2 cannot ever be maphack proof so while its a nice idea it would never be fair.
    RodrigoX
    Profile Joined November 2009
    United States645 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-19 20:01:08
    June 19 2010 19:58 GMT
    #297
    On June 20 2010 04:22 figg wrote:
    There are probably two main incentives for playing Starcraft:
    - to win
    - to be creative and have fun

    Introducing paid tournaments would put more emphasis on the first incentive. People will argue that this is going to make players better, but it's also very likely that it's going to make them dirtier, cheesier, and more stereotypical than ever. Eventually, the creative part of the community will have to move on to other games, if that happens - just as it was with the rise of BW.


    Well I dont think it would make players that way. Because we wouldnt be playing in them all the time. It would be just like a tournament. It would be like the way progamers play in BW right now. Tournaments dont limit creativeness, alot of the times they increase it by making players play at a higher level than they did before, let it be with stronger mechanics or very solid build orders(creative).

    These tournaments would not make players more robotic, it would just be another tournament that has easy access. Do tournaments now make players robotic? I dont think so, they just play how they would play in a tournament and that wouldnt change with this.

    And I dont think creative players would end up leaving, I just think they would end up having to back up their creative play with some stability like you would have to anyway.

    On June 20 2010 04:22 Plethora wrote:

    This.

    It's a fine line, and I could be wrong, but if pay-to-play tournaments were readily available 24/7 then for far too many players for my liking the whole game suddenly revolves around winning as opposed to having fun. Often times winning and having fun are one in the same, but not always, and in those not always scenarios I really really want Bnet to focus on fun over profit.

    I am not opposed to having semi-regular pay tourneys, even weekly ones, but having them available at all times is not good in my book.


    The focus on the game is winning. Ever watch Day9? And thats where the fun comes from. I mean if playing in tournies makes you think you have to play standard it is your own fault. The tournament is not limiting you, you are limiting you.

    And having tournies all the time, I mean I dont think its "feasible" and borderline bad.
    We were all raised on televion that made us believe we'd all be Millionairs, Movie gods, and Rockstars..... But we won't.... We are slowly learning that fact. And we are very, very pissed off.
    Challe
    Profile Joined June 2010
    Afghanistan58 Posts
    June 19 2010 20:08 GMT
    #298
    hmm well since it will be hosted on bnet and by blizzard, blizzard will be able track your IP address and stuff. so they could have it where when you register, you tell what computer or IP address you will be playing on, an for the rest of the tournament you can only play from that IP. Blizzard could also check the highest rank ever achieved from a certain IP address.

    I really don't know anything about this type of stuff, but wouldn't that help prevent smurfing so you could have tournaments for players not as good.

    If this idea won't work, please tell me why.
    StarMasterX
    Profile Joined February 2010
    United States113 Posts
    June 19 2010 20:44 GMT
    #299
    On June 20 2010 04:16 crimsonsentinel wrote:
    Seriously guys, Starcraft is not a game of chance and therefore does not count as gambling.


    Unfortunately it does in this case. Anytime you wager money on something with an unknown outcome, it is gambling. In particular wagering on almost any game is gambling. The word gambling has just come to mean things with random chance, but it isn't exclusively that.

    There is no way this is going to happen. There are soooo many legal problems. Technically it could happen (if a bunch of things were implemented and it got really complicated), but it won't.
    Challe
    Profile Joined June 2010
    Afghanistan58 Posts
    June 19 2010 20:49 GMT
    #300
    yea it is really really cool idea but i don't think it will ever happen =(
    Soap
    Profile Blog Joined April 2010
    Brazil1546 Posts
    June 19 2010 21:06 GMT
    #301
    On June 20 2010 05:44 StarMasterX wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 20 2010 04:16 crimsonsentinel wrote:
    Seriously guys, Starcraft is not a game of chance and therefore does not count as gambling.


    Unfortunately it does in this case. Anytime you wager money on something with an unknown outcome, it is gambling. In particular wagering on almost any game is gambling. The word gambling has just come to mean things with random chance, but it isn't exclusively that.

    There is no way this is going to happen. There are soooo many legal problems. Technically it could happen (if a bunch of things were implemented and it got really complicated), but it won't.


    Except "wager" this time means to pay an entry fee for a tournament. To compare with casino games is at least silly.

    It is already happening with Blizzard's own WoW. The question is if its worth to bring it to SC2.

    Maybe its a way to break the vicious circle where general people arent interested in esports because it isnt big, it isnt big because there are few sponsors, and theres few sponsors because general people arent interested. Imagine tournaments with 4 figure buyins featuring the best players in the world, with an amazing advantage over poker: SC2 is tremendously more enjoyable to watch.
    DeeD
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Sweden88 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-19 21:37:28
    June 19 2010 21:33 GMT
    #302
    It's a neat idea, however... If this would be in the format like a MTT good players could easily abuse the system by deliberately loosing a couple of tournaments in copper and then winning some, keeping them in a lower division and still making a lot of money (since the difference between entry fee and price money is huge).

    Hopofully could probably work if it was a diamond-leage kind of thing only though..

    On June 20 2010 05:44 StarMasterX wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On June 20 2010 04:16 crimsonsentinel wrote:
    Seriously guys, Starcraft is not a game of chance and therefore does not count as gambling.


    Unfortunately it does in this case. Anytime you wager money on something with an unknown outcome, it is gambling. In particular wagering on almost any game is gambling. The word gambling has just come to mean things with random chance, but it isn't exclusively that.

    There is no way this is going to happen. There are soooo many legal problems. Technically it could happen (if a bunch of things were implemented and it got really complicated), but it won't.

    So... stock brokers are gamblers, in a legal sense?
    UbiNax
    Profile Joined February 2010
    Denmark381 Posts
    June 19 2010 21:44 GMT
    #303
    Interesting idea tbh, wouldnt mind paying
    Arcalious
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States213 Posts
    June 19 2010 22:05 GMT
    #304
    One one hand it seems like fun idea, but then again? Way too much risk for a company like ActiBlizzard. Gambling law is a huge grey area with lots of complications and double standards. Legal or not, implementing a tournament system that resembles Sit'N'Go poker could turn into a huge PR mess. Video Game Controvery. Plus there is no way to stop some forms of hacking/botting in a game like SC2.




    AeonStrife
    Profile Blog Joined May 2010
    United States918 Posts
    June 19 2010 22:26 GMT
    #305
    Neat idea. However, I have to agree with everyone that said Blizzard shouldn't dip their hands into a constant transferring of money especially if its an all-around the clock automated system. Sounds like a ton of fun tbh, but people outside of the gaming industry may look down on this and give Blizz bad rep. First impression of this system may point to gambling and legal problems (you know how dumb people are these days). I am pretty sure the game is available for people of all ages, so seeing something like this being implemented may not be a good idea unless you can constrain this content to 21+ years of age.

    This may be implemented sometime in the future once the E-sports scene becomes more main streamed in America. Perhaps it'll go though a third-party but not Blizzard themselves.
    Whats worse...US Poltics or SC2 Balance Talks...
    Arcalious
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States213 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-19 23:39:13
    June 19 2010 23:36 GMT
    #306
    On June 20 2010 06:33 DeeD wrote:
    It's a neat idea, however... If this would be in the format like a MTT good players could easily abuse the system by deliberately loosing a couple of tournaments in copper and then winning some, keeping them in a lower division and still making a lot of money (since the difference between entry fee and price money is huge).

    Hopofully could probably work if it was a diamond-leage kind of thing only though..

    Show nested quote +
    On June 20 2010 05:44 StarMasterX wrote:
    On June 20 2010 04:16 crimsonsentinel wrote:
    Seriously guys, Starcraft is not a game of chance and therefore does not count as gambling.


    Unfortunately it does in this case. Anytime you wager money on something with an unknown outcome, it is gambling. In particular wagering on almost any game is gambling. The word gambling has just come to mean things with random chance, but it isn't exclusively that.

    There is no way this is going to happen. There are soooo many legal problems. Technically it could happen (if a bunch of things were implemented and it got really complicated), but it won't.

    So... stock brokers are gamblers, in a legal sense?


    Stock brokers are just sales people? Do you mean securities traders? Regardless, the buying and selling of stock is not considered gambling because the stock represents ownership in something that has economic value/utility. Even from a speculative context, risking money on the purchase of a company or real estate is different than risking money in a pryamid/ponzi scheme (zero sum gain). Tournaments where the prize pool is paid out by a 3rd party is typically acceptable. Tournaments where the prize pool is 100% paid for by the participants (zero sum gain) could be subject to gambling laws.
    Challe
    Profile Joined June 2010
    Afghanistan58 Posts
    June 20 2010 00:00 GMT
    #307
    I think that they should just have a league where you have to pay a small fee or a maybe even a monthly fee. then that league would have all the automated tournaments and stuff.

    That could be one way to do this
    NicolBolas
    Profile Blog Joined March 2009
    United States1388 Posts
    June 20 2010 00:04 GMT
    #308
    I think there's a larger issue here in this comparison.

    How long would even a 16-person SC2 tournament take to complete? Assuming Bo3's throughout, it will take hours. Each level of the tournament takes an hour (the average time for a Bo3), so the total time invested would be 4 hours. That's a long time. Even if you limit it to an 8-person tournament, that's still 3 hours.

    Contrast this to paying in for a table tournament of poker. How long does that take? With 10 players, online, depending on skill rank, 30 minutes to an hour. Hell, I've known people who can play in multiple games simultaneously and be reasonably decent at it.

    Not a lot of people are going to be willing to invest that much time in a SC2 tournament.

    Oh, and there's cheating to consider. Until the game is 100% foolproof against cheating, no anonymous tournaments like this could ever be run.
    So you know, cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come up and talk to you, it's great. But if you try to talk to them, it doesn't always go so well. - Shigeru Miyamoto
    Qualm
    Profile Joined December 2009
    721 Posts
    June 20 2010 00:23 GMT
    #309
    Unless you live in Quebec, he said. It's illegal to enter any such contest there. So there you have it, Canucks! You can pay or write an essay as you choose, unless you're in Quebec, in which case your local laws force you to take the role of spectator.

    Fuck.

    The lottery laws here are so messed up. Tons of online competitions are illegal here, heck, Google's code jam is illegal here. :|

    Also, the government plans on taking over online gambling. "Yay."
    soki
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States40 Posts
    June 20 2010 00:34 GMT
    #310
    On June 18 2010 09:02 pash1k wrote:
    I really like this idea - especially if the entrance fee is small ($1 or $2). I spend a $1 on much more useless things than a SCII tournament.

    lol yeah, candy bars are $1 now ffs (I remember when they used to be 3 for $1 at the grocery story I worked at for my first job!)

    also, if anyone has here has ever done fantasy sports for money, you would probably agree with me that it's way more enjoyable and intense knowing that something is on the line.
    http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/270391/1/Soki/
    kidijs
    Profile Joined May 2010
    Latvia40 Posts
    June 20 2010 00:34 GMT
    #311
    Excuse my conservative point of view, but this just feels really bad. Yes, with any electronic payment system blizzard could control the age of participants - and as well preserve ruined lives (lol) simply by not having tournaments with huge entry fees; however, tournaments like these would be utterly bad PR for blizzard.
    Cogito ergo sum
    xxjondxx
    Profile Joined February 2010
    United States89 Posts
    June 20 2010 01:05 GMT
    #312
    Would be pretty sick if something like this was implemented but honestly it never will happen due to gambling legalities.

    Also I don't think cheating would really be an issue. People get caught for collusion all the time in poker and it seems like it would be 100x easier to find cheaters in sc2.

    hifriend
    Profile Blog Joined June 2009
    China7935 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-20 01:08:01
    June 20 2010 01:05 GMT
    #313
    I think a big problem is maphack, which is essentially impossible to eliminate in sc2 in it's current state. Especially private methods that stick around forever unless they're used in a blatantly obvious fashion.

    The solution would be to use a different form of networking (with only the necessary information stored client side) in money tourneys, but that seems unlikely, and even then those tenacious little fuckers would probably find a way (it is doable).

    Another thing, I think maybe it should only be allowed for the very top divisons, because having copper rank doesn't mean shit. You could easily buy a copy for $50, throw your placement matches and go for some ez sit'n'go's and make a buckload of cash.

    However if they implemented it in a good way it would be pretty awesome for the competition.


    On June 20 2010 10:05 xxjondxx wrote:
    Would be pretty sick if something like this was implemented but honestly it never will happen due to gambling legalities.

    Also I don't think cheating would really be an issue. People get caught for collusion all the time in poker and it seems like it would be 100x easier to find cheaters in sc2.


    Not really, good maphackers will know how to prevent getting caught. Just having a quick glance at a fully revealed minimap every now and then is a tremendous advantage.
    Playguuu
    Profile Joined April 2010
    United States926 Posts
    June 20 2010 01:08 GMT
    #314
    This is a whole can of worms if you open SC2 up to pay tournaments. Besides gambling laws which can vary wildly, you're requiring a credit card for participation, open yourself up even further to fraud, hackers, etc.

    Not to mention this game isn't even 100% balanced in the slightest because of maps that favor certain races, then race imbalances overall.

    How much of a pain is it to lose your entry fee due to lag or disconnects? That doesn't sound very fun, especially for people in Australia and places with spotty internet, remember, even cable isn't 100% and many times people only have 1 option in their area (so don't spout "get better internet").

    I want to like the idea, as a MTGO and occasional online poker player, but I think there's too many problems that would have to be solved before you can even begin to consider going beyond a generic esports game into the realm for real money.

    I'd rather see a tournament points accumulation from laddering, where there's a free weekly tournament you use your points to enter for a certain division with higher points offering better rewards to the winner, like certain avatars, decals or even free entry to a higher tournament that pays out money. And from there possibly expand to pay tournaments if everything else gets worked out.
    I used to be just like you, then I took a sweetroll to the knee.
    Grumbels
    Profile Blog Joined May 2009
    Netherlands7031 Posts
    June 20 2010 01:08 GMT
    #315
    (I hope someone didn't already say this.)

    I've always thought it was awful that someone could buy the game, play it a few times, not be too interested in it anymore, and spend the same amount of money as someone that buys the game, loves it, spends a lot of time playing online, avidly follows all the tournaments, reads forums. Especially since the second person not only has so much entertainment from so little money, he also costs Blizzard more money due to servercosts, community managers, and so on.

    This is insane on the face of it: to maximize revenue, short-term at least, Blizzard is better off making a game that people want to spend money on, but then don't want to play, then creating a game with a lot of followers that is very popular online. I mean, there are additional benefits, such as word-of-mouth, loyalty to Blizzard from all the fans for their game, but it's still a perverse incentive for their management.

    That's why finding ways to get money from people who spend a lot of time on SCII is a sensible idea, and one that the teamliquid community should essentially embrace (if it were not for the fact it will cost them money) since it increases their leverage over and importance for Blizzard; they become far more than just a fringe group that only costs them.
    Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
    Grumbels
    Profile Blog Joined May 2009
    Netherlands7031 Posts
    June 20 2010 01:12 GMT
    #316
    And also, I don't think Blizzard's tournaments even fall under gambling laws. There were some residents from countries like the Netherlands that weren't eligible for WoW-tournaments, but I think that was more so precaution from Blizzard, not actual law that would really ban people from participating. Those laws are dumb and because of our so-called Christian government, but they're meant to ban people from, like, online-poker sites, not starcraft.
    Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
    vanskater
    Profile Joined March 2010
    United States146 Posts
    June 20 2010 01:21 GMT
    #317
    i still don't see how an optional buy in turni is going to be bad press.

    this is not gambling in anyway, in any major tournament (wsvg, wcg, cpl) you have to pay to play, and you don't see them getting any bad press, or having issue with minors(minus the Mature games thing)
    Liquid`Jinro
    Profile Blog Joined September 2002
    Sweden33719 Posts
    Last Edited: 2010-06-20 01:33:46
    June 20 2010 01:30 GMT
    #318
    On June 20 2010 09:04 NicolBolas wrote:
    I think there's a larger issue here in this comparison.

    How long would even a 16-person SC2 tournament take to complete? Assuming Bo3's throughout, it will take hours. Each level of the tournament takes an hour (the average time for a Bo3), so the total time invested would be 4 hours. That's a long time. Even if you limit it to an 8-person tournament, that's still 3 hours.

    Contrast this to paying in for a table tournament of poker. How long does that take? With 10 players, online, depending on skill rank, 30 minutes to an hour. Hell, I've known people who can play in multiple games simultaneously and be reasonably decent at it.

    Not a lot of people are going to be willing to invest that much time in a SC2 tournament.

    Oh, and there's cheating to consider. Until the game is 100% foolproof against cheating, no anonymous tournaments like this could ever be run.

    1) BO1
    2) There are poker tournaments that last 24 hours+
    3) Poker still suffers from collusion (2 players that are friends can join the same tournament and play in a way that benefits them), it's not completely free of cheating.

    In addition, the Zotac cup fills up every week and that's way more than a 3 hour investment, it's more like 6 or 7 if you reach the finals.


    Not to mention this game isn't even 100% balanced in the slightest because of maps that favor certain races, then race imbalances overall.

    How much of a pain is it to lose your entry fee due to lag or disconnects? That doesn't sound very fun, especially for people in Australia and places with spotty internet, remember, even cable isn't 100% and many times people only have 1 option in their area (so don't spout "get better internet").

    I'm sure it's not fun disconnecting after you signed up for a 5000$ sit'n'go either, but it happens. If you are lucky, and it's a 1on1 sit'n'go, then your opponent might blind you down and send you your buyin back (minus the rake obviously).
    Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
    hunter3
    Profile Blog Joined January 2008
    United States155 Posts
    June 20 2010 05:44 GMT
    #319
    I still have bad memories from 2006 when 90% of online poker sites were shut down to US players. Hosting a poker site became almost like hosting a file-sharing server, sitting in a little known country hoping the police don't kick down the doors. Activision Blizzard won't touch this if legal even thinks the word "gambling"

    That said... I really really hope they implement some type of automated tournament system.
    DemiSe
    Profile Blog Joined May 2010
    883 Posts
    June 20 2010 05:47 GMT
    #320
    I hope that this will be incorperated. Just hopin that some stupid law won't set stop for this.
    I'm down to play for money, people play better when they have something on the line and you want to play your opponent when he is as best as he can be.(The bigger they are, the harder they fall).
    Let's See Who's Stronger, Your Tricks, Or My Skills.
    InToTheWannaB
    Profile Joined September 2002
    United States4770 Posts
    June 20 2010 07:17 GMT
    #321
    Really the whole idea is pretty fucking sick, and I'd love to see it happen. I just don't think blizzard has the balls to try something this creative.

    I have not read all the pages in this thread. So maybe this was asked already, but could TL.net set something like this up? I rather TL rake my money anyway. Could TL set up a website on a server in some nation with weak gambling laws? All the website would have to do is hold the money basically, and set the brackets. You just need mods on bnet2 to settle any disputes. Basically like Iccup is now.

    I guess the only problem is you somehow need a way for the website to quickly check everyone bnet profiles and put similar ranked players into brackets. You also surely will get a blizzard lawyer up your ass, but I don't know could blizzard stop you from doing something like that?
    When the spirit is not altogether slain, great loss teaches men and women to desire greatly, both for themselves and for others.
    Verator
    Profile Joined June 2010
    United States283 Posts
    June 20 2010 08:18 GMT
    #322
    Its seems like the large majority of people haven't read most of the thread and keep reiterating the same fears or points over and over. Perhaps updating the OP to reflect some of the points that have been brought up so far?

    That being said,

    For fear of higher ranked players farming lower skill players, have a single tournament win push you up to the next ranking level, and lock you into it. While over time this might make the higher levels slightly artificially larger, it also prevents the possibility of people winning a tournament in bronze, getting pushed into silver, and then throwing 10 games to go back into bronze. If you advance into a level by winning a tournament, you're locked into that level.

    Don't hold tournaments on demand, at all times, make them available for say 1 week each month, and then winners of tournaments are favored to play against other players who have won tournaments. If winners of tournaments are paired primarily against other winners, it makes competing for money more difficult.

    Not all tournament games need to be completely hack-free. Have specialized games for perhaps the finals and semi-finals, or even just the final game of the automated tournament. Have the games for these boot into a special sub-server designed to be primarily server-side, and have final games played out there.

    Legally, they're already safe due to the arena tournament work for World of Warcraft, areas where the tournament isn't available will simply not be able to have the option of these automated tournaments, and like with World of Warcraft, the inclusion of the tournaments does not invalidate the entire game, only the optional event.

    For people saying Blizzard could get into legal trouble for people bypassing bans in their areas: You agree to a ToS when you play the game, adding in a clause that they do not support or condone that behaviour, and are not responsible for the repercussions of these actions etc etc would shield them from backlash. Additionally, you could have regional IP data encoded into the data sent by the client itself, so simply using a proxy server or buying a US client wouldn't be enough to bypass the bans.

    For caught cheaters or abusers, don't just ban an account or IP, ban the payment information. It would be much more difficult to cheat the system when if you're caught your credit card or bank routing number is blacklisted.

    Give participation rewards for non-winners. Special avatars or decals, depending on performance. Playing gets you a certain avatar for the next month. Winning one game gets you a special decal, and the avatar. 2 games, different avatar, 3 games, different decal, win a tournament, you get a much more exclusive avatar, or perhaps symbol by your name. Rewards last the rest of the month until the next tournament week.

    I think this would be a really fun idea, and I'd definitely participate just to see how I compare and stack up, even if I would likely not win, assuming the cost is low enough.
    So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence. -- Bertrand Russell
    T0fuuu
    Profile Blog Joined May 2009
    Australia2275 Posts
    June 20 2010 08:49 GMT
    #323
    little to no interest in playing but i think it is a great system. however i dont see the need in segregating the pros from the good players. Just let anyone play whereever they want for how much they want. if they want to keep playing low stakes forever then its their loss. its not like anyone will ever be good enough to play 4 games of starcraft at the same time anyways.
    StarMasterX
    Profile Joined February 2010
    United States113 Posts
    June 20 2010 09:09 GMT
    #324
    On June 20 2010 17:18 DarkKiwi wrote:For people saying Blizzard could get into legal trouble for people bypassing bans in their areas: You agree to a ToS when you play the game, adding in a clause that they do not support or condone that behaviour, and are not responsible for the repercussions of these actions etc etc would shield them from backlash.


    No it wouldn't. Poker sites have these same clauses and they also have the option to use play money. This does not shield them from backlash and Blizzard certainly won't be shielded as they are located in the US.
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