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On May 18 2010 05:32 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 05:22 kzn wrote:
Thats what I did. I only built one Gateway, researched warpgate, and build Stalker->Zealot->Stalker with each methodology.
I'm fairly certain there is no reason to do this if you're just trying to spam out identical units (I could be wrong) but that it works only on the basis of different build times (and therefore cooldowns) for each unit.
[edit] Its probably a second less than 5, since I forgot what to hit to turn Warpgates back into Gateways and had to look. It makes no sense to test it by making 3 units like that, you are essentially including 1.5 "cycles" you need to be very specific about whether or not you are including the conversion time, and test it in one FULL cycle (one unit from gate one from warp), otherwise you are gaining or losing 5 seconds depending on how you time it. To test it properly you need to time: Convert to warpgate > warp stalker > convert to gateway > build stalker and compare it to: Warp stalker > Warp Stalker Look, when my desktop computer is available I will do a comprehensive analysis of this.
I fixed this for you:
Convert to warpgate > warp stalker > convert to gateway > build stalker
and compare it to:
Convert to warpgate > Warp stalker > Warp Stalker
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Can't check this for all units right at the moment because I'm off to dinner, but the game tells you how much cooldown is left on your warpgate right after you warp in a unit. Hover your cursor over any unit and it'll say.
Zealots have 23 warpgate cooldown and stalkers have 32, consistent with Liquipedia. I didn't check the rest.
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On May 18 2010 07:21 crate wrote:
Can't check this for all units right at the moment because I'm off to dinner, but the game tells you how much cooldown is left on your warpgate right after you warp in a unit. Hover your cursor over any unit and it'll say.
Zealots have 23 warpgate cooldown and stalkers have 32, consistent with Liquipedia. I didn't check the rest.
They're all correct; just the normal build times -5.
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On May 18 2010 07:13 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 05:32 Wr3k wrote:On May 18 2010 05:22 kzn wrote:
Thats what I did. I only built one Gateway, researched warpgate, and build Stalker->Zealot->Stalker with each methodology.
I'm fairly certain there is no reason to do this if you're just trying to spam out identical units (I could be wrong) but that it works only on the basis of different build times (and therefore cooldowns) for each unit.
[edit] Its probably a second less than 5, since I forgot what to hit to turn Warpgates back into Gateways and had to look. It makes no sense to test it by making 3 units like that, you are essentially including 1.5 "cycles" you need to be very specific about whether or not you are including the conversion time, and test it in one FULL cycle (one unit from gate one from warp), otherwise you are gaining or losing 5 seconds depending on how you time it. To test it properly you need to time: Convert to warpgate > warp stalker > convert to gateway > build stalker and compare it to: Warp stalker > Warp Stalker Look, when my desktop computer is available I will do a comprehensive analysis of this. I fixed this for you: Convert to warpgate > warp stalker > convert to gateway > build stalker and compare it to: Convert to warpgate > Warp stalker > Warp Stalker
The convert to warpgate in the 2nd case is a 1 time cost, you don't lose 10 seconds after every 2 stalkers once you have made your warp gates. Either way the math is done and proven correct now.
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People should read my post >.> Making more than 2 units will always result in a net gain. Don't test just 2 and say "OLOL IT SUCKS," because you're not going to just make 2 unit in a situation where it matters in the first place.
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I don't see how this would work. Using the following data I know to be true:
Zealots take 33 seconds to build from a Gateway
Zealots take 5 seconds to place from a Warpgate
Zealots have a 23 second cooldown from a Warpgate
The Warpgate cooldown starts when the Zealot is placed
It takes 10 seconds for a GW to become a WG
It takes 3 seconds for a WG to become a GW
Gateway only: Zealots
1) 33 seconds
2) 66 seconds
3) 99 seconds
4) 132 seconds
Warpgate only: Zealots
1) 5 seconds
2) 28 seconds
3) 51 seconds
4) 74 seconds
Warpgate -> Gateway -> Warpgate -> Gateway
1) 5 seconds (Warp one in at the start)
2) 41 seconds (3 seconds to become a GW, 33 to make a Zealot)
3) 56 seconds (10 seconds to become a WG, 5 to make a Zealot)
4) 92 seconds (3 seconds to become a GW, 33 to make a Zealot)
You're basically alternating Zealots every 15 and 36 seconds. 15 comes from 10 to turn it into a WG, then 5 to Warp in, and 36 comes from 3 to turn it into a GW and 33 to create the Zealot.
The average of 15 and 36 is 24, which is longer than the base Warpgate cooldown of 23 seconds.
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United States22883 Posts
I think the OP said it didn't work with zealots.
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Zealots are the only unit it doesn't work for.
The other units' long cooldowns save you time with this method. At least how I understand it.
This does not speed up straight zealots, but does speed up every other two-unit combination. You always want to warp-in the longer build time unit and gateway-build the other.
^ From OP
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so with # gates
W-Shift+(templar hotkey)-click*#-(hold W)-(Zealot Hotkey)*#-wait-1-(hold W)- Shift+(Sentry Hotkey)-click*#
you can make # lots, # Templar and # Sentry much faster. thats not taxing on your APM thats pretty much what zerg does every day with queen and egg micro. (as a zerg player i could do this easily)
Also it only works with warping in units with longer cooldowns alternating with low train time units.
I might play some toss games with this mechanic.
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On May 18 2010 07:42 Bibdy wrote:
I don't see how this would work. Using the following data I know to be true:
Zealots take 33 seconds to build from a Gateway
Zealots take 5 seconds to place from a Warpgate
Zealots have a 23 second cooldown from a Warpgate
The Warpgate cooldown starts when the Zealot is placed
It takes 10 seconds for a GW to become a WG
It takes 3 seconds for a WG to become a GW
Gateway only: Zealots
1) 33 seconds
2) 66 seconds
3) 99 seconds
4) 132 seconds
Warpgate only: Zealots
1) 5 seconds
2) 28 seconds
3) 51 seconds
4) 74 seconds
Warpgate -> Gateway -> Warpgate -> Gateway
1) 5 seconds (Warp one in at the start)
2) 41 seconds (3 seconds to become a GW, 33 to make a Zealot)
3) 56 seconds (10 seconds to become a WG, 5 to make a Zealot)
4) 92 seconds (3 seconds to become a GW, 33 to make a Zealot)
You're basically alternating Zealots every 15 and 36 seconds. 15 comes from 10 to turn it into a WG, then 5 to Warp in, and 36 comes from 3 to turn it into a GW and 33 to create the Zealot.
The average of 15 and 36 is 24, which is longer than the base Warpgate cooldown of 23 seconds.
While the unit warps in the gateway can still cool down, so the 5 seconds is irrelevant.
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I just got done trying this in PvP, it was hard to micro and get the timings right but in one game, i tryed it, mirrored his build and had 3 more stalkers then he did
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Testet it just now and my result is:
CD for a WG is 10 sec less then original production time in a GW. but then you have a production time in youre WG for 5 sec, and a 10 sec GW to WG convert time. And the GW saves the raily point between converting.
So it could be intresting to use as it means a free Zelot on each Templar, or for a bit of extra time, you could get two units instead of one if you are producing Stalkers or Sentrys however for only Zelot production, it will be slower.
So for my test i used two warpgate's of wich i converted one of them and had a "CD production" (CDP)
test1:
+ Show Spoiler +"CD production"(CDP) = Zelot and "Main production" (MP) = Dark Templar
for WG1(non converting):
t0 start Warp-in of DT
t5 DT ready
t45 CD done
for WG1(converting):
t0 start Warp-in of DT
t1 converting to GW (3sec)
t4 GW done
t5 DT ready, start production of zelot
t38 Zelot done
t39 start converting to WG
t49 converting done
so for an extra production time of 4sec you recived one extra Zelot.
This test would work the same for a High Templar as the CD and production time is the same
test2:
+ Show Spoiler + CDP = Zelot and MP = Stalker
for WG1(non converting):
t0 start Warp-in of Stalker
t5 Stalker ready
t32 CD done
for WG1(converting):
t0 start Warp-in of Stalker
t1 converting to GW (3sec)
t4 GW done
t5 Stalker ready, start production of zelot
t38 Zelot done
t39 start converting to WG
t49 converting done
Production time for the extra Zelots = 17sec.
This test would work the same for a Sentry as the CD and production time is the same
test3:
+ Show Spoiler +"CD production"(CDP) = Sentry and "Main production" (MP) = Dark Templar
for WG1(non converting):
t0 start Warp-in of DT
t5 DT ready
t45 CD done
for WG1(converting):
t0 start Warp-in of DT
t1 converting to GW (3sec)
t4 GW done
t5 DT ready, start production of Sentry
t47 Zelot done
t48 start converting to WG
t58 converting done
So for an extra production time of 13sec you recived one extra Stalker/Sentry.
This test would work the same for a High Templar as the CD and production time is the same
All test could prob. be cut with like 3 sec as this was my first time testing.
I did not do ant further testing as the benefit is 0 if the MP and CDP production is Zelots.
however the benefit for this trick will be diminished as the game goes on for two+one reasons:
1. The more Warpgates to manage the more time goes spoild in each transition (needs more time clicking keys and mouse)
2. The running distance will EAT up the benefit.
3. (the +1 reason) APM, this will consume you're APM, actions you may have bigger need on for managing something else.
However an interesting idee for a timed push with stalkers/Sentrys and Zelots would be possible using the Warp-in, Convert, Build, Convert, Warp-in as it will make you for ex. 2 stalkers and one Zelot in 54 sec and when on CD Push forward!
But ill guess the argument against this as a valid strategy is that it takes time before you have you're warpgate research, and the 1-4 extra Zelots may not be as great as it seams on paper.
Edit: added a third test with CD of Stalkers/Sentrys
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While it is surely possible, I REALLY doubt the gain is worth it.
1) Heavier demand on resources, meaning less non-gateway units or more expos to defend, meaning this is very late game, meaning you should have 10 warpgates anyhow which should be plenty to replenish your army and you'll have enough other tasks to handle, see 2.
2) Attention demanding - delay one cycle for 5 seconds and you won't benefit at all.
Whilst 2 might end up being irrelevant at pro-level, I doubt that most of us got the mechanics to actually pull it off without messing up at one point - I know I wouldn't be able to.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:50 Chunkybuddha wrote:
Pretty sweet idea, but doesn't this just fix bad macro?
Ideally, starcraft players with the exception of zerg maybe, wants to keep their resources at a super minimum through-out the game. To do this right, you have sufficient production facilities to meet your resources to bring them down to 0 every 'round'.
With your idea, you'll need an odd number of gateways, and weird timings to keep your resources 0. You might need less gateways if you do it right, but I would rather have more warp gates warping rather than less gateways rallying.
Even if you are pro, this would be super hard to pull off correctly and not as beneficial of having your army warped across the map.
There are exceptions. The most obvious example is varying the number of gates because you want to take an expansion earlier.
What this does is let you narrow the timing window in which your unit production has to catch up just after you lay down an expansion, because using this, you can immediately up your rate of unit production, without having to wait for additional gateways to finish building. It will only likely speed up 1 round of units, but games have been won and lost on stuff like that.
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Ah, I see.
Gateway: Stalkers
1) 42 seconds
2) 84 seconds
3) 126 seconds
4) 168 seconds
5) 210 seconds
Warpgate: Stalkers
1) 5 seconds
2) 37 seconds
3) 69 seconds
4) 101 seconds
5) 133 seconds
WG -> GW -> WG -> GW: Stalkers
1) 5 seconds
2) 50 seconds
3) 65 seconds
4) 110 seconds
5) 125 seconds
GW -> WG -> GW -> WG: Stalkers
1) 42 seconds
2) 57 seconds
3) 102 seconds
4) 117 seconds
5) 162 seconds
You do save a bit of time, here and there, but you have to start with Warpgates.
It obviously works better with longer build-time units.
Gateway: HTs
1) 55 seconds
2) 110 seconds
3) 165 seconds
4) 220 seconds
5) 275 seconds
Warpgates: HTs
1) 5 seconds
2) 50 seconds
3) 95 seconds
4) 140 seconds
5) 185 seconds
WG -> GW -> WG -> GW: HTs
1) 5 seconds
2) 63 seconds
3) 78 seconds
4) 136 seconds
5) 151 seconds
So, build times alternate between 15 seconds one way and (x+3) the other, versus constant Warpgate production of (x-10). So, you calculate for x:
15 + (x+3) < 2(x-10)
x > 38
So, when the build time is 38 seconds or longer, the swapping method is more beneficial.
PROVEN WITH MATH.
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On May 18 2010 07:52 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 07:42 Bibdy wrote:
I don't see how this would work. Using the following data I know to be true:
Zealots take 33 seconds to build from a Gateway
Zealots take 5 seconds to place from a Warpgate
Zealots have a 23 second cooldown from a Warpgate
The Warpgate cooldown starts when the Zealot is placed
It takes 10 seconds for a GW to become a WG
It takes 3 seconds for a WG to become a GW
Gateway only: Zealots
1) 33 seconds
2) 66 seconds
3) 99 seconds
4) 132 seconds
Warpgate only: Zealots
1) 5 seconds
2) 28 seconds
3) 51 seconds
4) 74 seconds
Warpgate -> Gateway -> Warpgate -> Gateway
1) 5 seconds (Warp one in at the start)
2) 41 seconds (3 seconds to become a GW, 33 to make a Zealot)
3) 56 seconds (10 seconds to become a WG, 5 to make a Zealot)
4) 92 seconds (3 seconds to become a GW, 33 to make a Zealot)
You're basically alternating Zealots every 15 and 36 seconds. 15 comes from 10 to turn it into a WG, then 5 to Warp in, and 36 comes from 3 to turn it into a GW and 33 to create the Zealot.
The average of 15 and 36 is 24, which is longer than the base Warpgate cooldown of 23 seconds. While the unit warps in the gateway can still cool down, so the 5 seconds is irrelevant.
Are you saying you can turn a Warp Gate into a Gateway while the unit is still warping in?
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On May 18 2010 08:05 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 07:52 Wr3k wrote:On May 18 2010 07:42 Bibdy wrote:
I don't see how this would work. Using the following data I know to be true:
Zealots take 33 seconds to build from a Gateway
Zealots take 5 seconds to place from a Warpgate
Zealots have a 23 second cooldown from a Warpgate
The Warpgate cooldown starts when the Zealot is placed
It takes 10 seconds for a GW to become a WG
It takes 3 seconds for a WG to become a GW
Gateway only: Zealots
1) 33 seconds
2) 66 seconds
3) 99 seconds
4) 132 seconds
Warpgate only: Zealots
1) 5 seconds
2) 28 seconds
3) 51 seconds
4) 74 seconds
Warpgate -> Gateway -> Warpgate -> Gateway
1) 5 seconds (Warp one in at the start)
2) 41 seconds (3 seconds to become a GW, 33 to make a Zealot)
3) 56 seconds (10 seconds to become a WG, 5 to make a Zealot)
4) 92 seconds (3 seconds to become a GW, 33 to make a Zealot)
You're basically alternating Zealots every 15 and 36 seconds. 15 comes from 10 to turn it into a WG, then 5 to Warp in, and 36 comes from 3 to turn it into a GW and 33 to create the Zealot.
The average of 15 and 36 is 24, which is longer than the base Warpgate cooldown of 23 seconds. While the unit warps in the gateway can still cool down, so the 5 seconds is irrelevant. Are you saying you can turn a Warp Gate into a Gateway while the unit is still warping in?
Yep try it
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I'm at work 
But, that would mean build times alternate between 15 seconds, and (x-2) seconds, meaning the build time only needs to be larger than 33 seconds to gain a benefit:
Zealots: WG
1) 5
2) 28
3) 51
4) 74
5) 97
Zealots: Alternating
1) 5
2) 36
3) 51
4) 82
5) 97
Stalkers: WG
1) 5
2) 37
3) 69
4) 101
5) 133
Stalkers: Alternating
1) 5
2) 45
3) 60
4) 100
5) 115
HTs: WG
1) 5
2) 50
3) 95
4) 140
5) 185
HTs: Alternating
1) 5
2) 58
3) 73
4) 126
5) 141
Makes you wonder if they deliberately picked those numbers for Warpgate/Gateway swapping times to allow this kind of stuff.
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Haven't read much of the thread but I think this would be very helpful when only getting 1 gateway early game. Other than that I don't think anyone below A+ and above will be able to do it effectively.
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I predict by.hero will use Protoss when he switches to SC2 because he'll finally have something to do with that 400 APM.
But this is fantastic. Hopefully it won't get patched away...
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EPT
