Oh wow this is awesome. I usually go chargelots into HT when I scout Bio/mech against terran (a common occurance as I play random). I'm usually starved for minerals until I hit HT production, at which point I'm swimming in it but don't have the extra gates since I didn't have the resources earlier. This will really help the build!

Parodoxx

United States549 Posts

June 23 2010 04:46 GMT

#142

So I was reading over this thread and decided that the information was useful but hard to apply, on paper everything seems great, however it more the doubles the macro required of me when the gains are not that large but a gain none the less. so I did some thinking, in a professional replay I see that their resources are low their warpgates stay warpgates and they are able to keep on par with other races in supply. If for some reason they had high mineral I think more warpgates would be the best solution late game. in early- mid game toss players often go 3 and 4 warpgate pushes but if you can produce the same size army as a 3 gate on 2 gate or a 4gate on 3 gateby swapping them between warpgates and gateways then thats amazing. plus having the extra mineral allows you to not have to dump resources on say a 2nd gas to produce centrys during a mineral deficit plus the saving on not building the extra gateway.

This might seem a bit off but I ran some test in the build order tester and the results were that 2 warpgates could produce a supply count of 48-52/58 at the 5 min mark well 2 warpgates swapping between gateways and warpgates could produce 56-60/72 in the same time. not a large jump in production but it ended with over 200/200 on my resources showing clear signs to improve that even further maybe even by a large amount if you did something weird like have 1 warpgate and 2 gateways swapping back and forth

Take this all with a grain of salt but I really think that this could have drastic effects on the sc2 meta game

goswser

United States3548 Posts

June 23 2010 04:52 GMT

#143

This could help a lot if you used this technique early game, 20% more units is very significant, later game sometimes its ineffective however since warp gates can warp the units right next to your army and normal gates don't.

P00RKID

United States424 Posts

June 23 2010 06:25 GMT

#144

I read a lot of the posts, but there was a lot of data to go through, so I might have missed it, but...

Did anybody factor into their graphs or math the mineral+gas per minute on warpgates vs gate-shuffle? So like 2 warpgates making sentry zealot alternating, its expense / minute VS 2 warpgate-shufflers sentry zealot ?

Basically the disadvantage of getting units faster means spending money faster. So there is a cut off point, and probably a sweet spot depending on what kind of income your dealing with.

More income means you need more gates and more APM or focus to actually produce from more gates at that faster rate. So if we figure out the cost per min, we can factor in how much a fully saturated 1 base can support, or an under-saturated all-inning 1 base could support, and see about making a few BOs.

If 1base can support a 4gate production, then it could probably only support a 3gate shuffle (my hypothesis) The end result would be you could only get units that your income can support, but you would be getting them faster and more burst like, (like zerg) so you could potentially play more like zerg, making units when you need to.

DarQraven

Netherlands553 Posts

June 23 2010 12:53 GMT

#145

Hypothetical situation:
Harass takes out one of your pylons and deactivates one of your warpgates. Compensate for loss in production by shuffling the other (two) gates until the warpgate goes back up.

This definitely has its uses, I'd say.
To be perfectly honest though, I'm too rusty on normal build orders at the moment to really contribute much on that front.
I'm sure I can figure out some kind of build that exploits this in some way, but I'd much rather do it when beta comes back online or come release time, so I can actually do it in the context of a real match.

If this trick can even achieve as little as P players having to build one gate less while still being relatively safe on defense, that's an expansion that comes 150 minerals earlier. Could be insignificant, could be helpful.

figq

12519 Posts

June 23 2010 13:19 GMT

#146

Main loss: flexibility / tempo.

So it's a trade-off, and not a straight gain; which is great.

Should be more useful in PvT (heavy macro armies), than in PvZ (fast army switches).

Also in PvP, suppose one goes GW-WG switching, the other one goes pure WG; then it's a stronger army vs a more flexible army, because the pure WG player could warp in more units at once, at the right spot of the map, with the right composition - vs the bigger force of his opponent. It would make pretty interesting games to watch.

STS17

United States1817 Posts

June 23 2010 13:41 GMT

#147

On June 23 2010 15:25 P00RKID wrote:
I read a lot of the posts, but there was a lot of data to go through, so I might have missed it, but...

Did anybody factor into their graphs or math the mineral+gas per minute on warpgates vs gate-shuffle? So like 2 warpgates making sentry zealot alternating, its expense / minute VS 2 warpgate-shufflers sentry zealot ?

Basically the disadvantage of getting units faster means spending money faster. So there is a cut off point, and probably a sweet spot depending on what kind of income your dealing with.

More income means you need more gates and more APM or focus to actually produce from more gates at that faster rate. So if we figure out the cost per min, we can factor in how much a fully saturated 1 base can support, or an under-saturated all-inning 1 base could support, and see about making a few BOs.

If 1base can support a 4gate production, then it could probably only support a 3gate shuffle (my hypothesis) The end result would be you could only get units that your income can support, but you would be getting them faster and more burst like, (like zerg) so you could potentially play more like zerg, making units when you need to.

Agreed, can’t spend more then you make (unless you’re an American with a credit card) however, this may or may not be offset by the fact that you are indeed spending less money on infrastructure. I think this might have the greatest effect in the PvP MU as when one player tries to be extremely aggressive (say, 2 gate pressure -> 4 gate) the defending player generally needs an equal or greater number of gates to defend, however once they defend they generally have some form of advantage. If you could defend a 4 gate with a 3 gate truffle shuffle of doom then that advantage is that much more amplified once you defend because you have spent 150 less minerals then they have (which is one more photon cannon to secure your choke or natural).

Now that I think about it, this technique might be best suited for use when a player needs to use photon cannons to defend (since 1 photon cannon = 1 gateway cost wise) meaning if you have to throw up cannons for defense you can use this to bolster your forces until you can afford to get the additional gateways up later on.

Bibdy

United States3481 Posts

June 23 2010 16:03 GMT

#148

I just tested the Chrono-Boost thing. If you make an HT, switch to a GW, build a Zealot and switch back to a WG, all with constant Chrono-Boosting, the HT cooldown is ready when its finished turning back into a Warp-Gate.

So CB does affect the WG cooldown in the background, while simultaneously accelerating the production of the building in Gateway mode as well as the speed at which it changes forms.

Fyrewolf

United States1533 Posts

July 08 2010 14:14 GMT

#149

Transforming to Gateway takes 10 seconds instead of 3, and zealots have 5 more build time now. I was hoping to work on this some, but I knew it was too powerful to stay. Shuffling gave more boost over warp gate, than warp gate gave over gateway.It needed the nerf, but I wish I played around with it more.

At this point, it's really not worth it anymore. Even HT Zealot is shot.
Warp HT (45) >Transform to Gateway (10) > make Zealot (38) > Transform to Warp Gate (10)
It now takes 58 seconds to complete a cycle, 12 seconds longer than it did before.

Now shuffling has too high of an opportunity cost (20 extra secs, 10 before production begins). None of the timings are pretty anymore, 38 zealot build time and 10 sec warp-gate transform have have pretty much killed shuffling and taken away any boost you could get.

I haven't tested this, but I think the cooldowns don't tick seperately anymore, i.e. as long as your gateway is transforming, cooldown is paused.

Edit: Warpgate cooldown doens't decrease while in gateway form anymore. I wish this was still in the game, maybe just a little nerfed, instead of completely gone.

InTriX

United Kingdom149 Posts

July 08 2010 14:21 GMT

#150

It wasn't that powerful you still needed the economy to support it, normaly u just drop 1 extra warp gate, however with this u can save that warpgate money and get 1.5 zealots. Which isn't much AT ALL especially requiring so much macro. I feel sorry for this game, getting dummed down to one hand half asleep = perfect macro.

Leaving this in would allow for people who want 150 minerals to save it and spend it elsewhere, it wouldn't change much and would make the game feel so much more intense when needing to macro.

You also lose the ability to warp in units anywhere in psi power which is a fair trade off.

I don't see why everything has to be done for you in sc2.