[D] Switching between gateways and warpgates - Page 7

On June 23 2010 04:55 TrueRedemption wrote:
In my own theorycrafting I started taking out certain numbers such as build time and unit count and noticed a few things that seem to be overlooked thus far in this thread. I admit its been a less than complete analysis while I'm waiting on an experiment to finish, but I figured I wasn't the only one with these thoughts / questions, and I'd love someone to explain it to me if I'm just missing something.

All of these tests have ignored a very simple, yet vitally important concept. Regardless of production rate, all of these units still have standard unit cost. These extra produced units are not "free" unless your macro has slipped and you have excess resources to begin with. If you have excess resources I suggest improving other areas of your macro, it'll have bigger effects than this.


Here is an example, one of the simplest situations I considered. Your doing a 4 gate all in push using all 4 gates. You have army X at Y minutes. Now compare it to doing the equivalent push using this technique. Regardless of travel time or anything else, the simple fact of the matter is the only advantage of the warpgate shuffle (great name btw) is an extra 150 or 300 minerals.

Don't get me wrong, this additional amount of resources can have a huge impact, especially since it is available somewhat early in the build. However, no matter how long you continue to shuffle, you'll still only ever have the extra 150 or 300 resources, which makes sense considering you'll be a little more vulnerable early game until the shuffle catches up production wise. If you spend the extra resources on non gateway tech realize you won't have the resources to maintain unit production past what you normally could if you actually had the number of warpgates the shuffle is simulating. If you let down on shuffle production before catching up to the production of increased warpgate count, then your not actually shuffling, your just using a fewer gate opening.

So while the numbers are good for some "oooh"s and "ahhh"s, why isn't this thread trying to flesh out a new build order that makes use of the extra resources? It'd be fun to know exactly what time the shuffle catches up to 4 gate production so it can push with its hard earned extra 1.5 or 3 zealots. Considering that gateway units need to be the focus into the midgame, another build order to find would be squeezing out an earlier twilight council for faster charge or blink while still having full unit production.

On June 23 2010 06:18 Bibdy wrote:


Mathy goodness.

Those are all of the different unit combinations you can do in a 2-unit cycle with the timings involved. T = Templar (DT/HT), S = Stalker/Sentry and Z = Zealot

Basically what its saying, as an example (2nd line), if you build a Templar unit from the Warp Gate, switch to a GW and build a Sentry, you'll have access to that Sentry 5 seconds sooner than had you done it with WGs alone. You'll also be able to build, and access a 3rd unit (whatever it is, it'll take 5 seconds to 'deploy' from this point) 22 seconds earlier via Shuffling than had you just used Warp Gates.

So, if you start with a Sentry or Templar in the Shuffle rotation, you'll get the 3rd unit 9 or 22 (respectively) seconds quicker than just WGs. If you start with a Zealot in the Shuffle rotation, you're not gaining anything (regardless of what the 2nd unit is).

If you keep building units of the same type (S-S, Z-Z or T-T), the second one is always going to be ACCESSIBLE 8 seconds later (13 seconds to flip back and forth between building types, minus 5 seconds of time you save from the warp-in), but the third one will always be quicker if you started with a Sentry or Templar.

And if you build units of the following combos: T-S, T-Z or S-Z (i.e. longer build-time unit followed by a shorter build-time one), you're ALWAYS going to get access to that second unit quicker, AS WELL as quicker access to the 3rd unit.

On June 23 2010 06:17 TrueRedemption wrote:
Why will resources vary based on different games if you're going the same build? Its a theoretical argument exploring "perfect" timing, but this technique isn't really going to apply to players who through a combination of errors suddenly realizes they have enough extra resources for a couple of zealots. They should probably worry about cleaning up the rest of their play a little bit before practicing this.


For shuffling to be useful you need to be making a lot of gateway units with constant production, otherwise you're not actually chipping away at the warpgate cooldown, you're just increasing the apm needed to produce the same number of units. If you switch from gateway units to another tech before you've made enough shuffled units to catch up to normal warp gate production, once again you've only managed to make standard play more difficult.


So given optimal playing ability you can still only produce as much as you can spend, as shown by the 1 base 4 gate push. It can be all in-ish because there is little to no accumulation of resources if unit production remains constant, therefore no expansions or tech unless you stop your push. By exchanging the 4gate for 3 gate shuffle you provide the player an additional 150 minerals and an equal size army somewhere down the line. The delay in catching up to the production an additional warpgate would provide may do more harm than good should the investment of your opponents tech or expansion pay off by then.


Based on numbers earlier up in the thread, it appears that you need to produce at least 5 cycles of units with the transition in order for a single shuffling gateway to outproduce a normal warpgate. That is only to exceed itself, something like 135% production, so to actually equate to an additional gateway you'd need 3 gateways shuffling for 8 or so cycles (remember you need to make up ALL of the units an extra gateway would've provided in that time).

Chronoboost overlap and mixed unit compositions can help bring that number of cycles down, but I'd like to point out how late in the game this is. Shuffling can only occur after warpgate tech is completed. While the upgrade is very often started as soon as the cybernetics core finishes, this still means that a shuffle can't begin to make up for lost production until the heart of the early game. I am not at home and cannot test this right now, but I hardly believe the shuffle will catch up to production in time for a bolstered early game push, if anything you're slightly weaker militarily speaking, so once again the only advantage present here comes back to the 150 minerals you did not have to spend on a gateway earlier.

If someone can find a use for this 150 minerals which establishes some advantage that synergizes with the constant warpgate production, it'll be an incredible technique which offers a unique opening. Perhaps 2 gate shuffle into a slightly faster expansion if a normal 2 gate into expansion suffered from an unnecessarily large early game army but still needed that many gateway units in the mid game?