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Ftrunkz
Australia2474 Posts
If this works it could make being agressive off 3 gates rather than 4 or 5 viable for PvZ and make gateway agression a LOT stronger. edit: in my head, you could get 3 stalkers 2 zealots in the time it usually takes to get 5 zealots from warpgates doing this switch back and forth way 100% efficiently from one gateway? eg: switching between every action 1s)5 1s:1z)36 2s:1z)51 2s:2z)82 3s:2z)97 Does this make sense or if this is wrong? Cos this will seriously change how i play pvz if this works  | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
A small list, if you guys are wondering: Without the Trick (Standard Warpgate) Templar + Zealot = 50 seconds to finish Zealot, 73 seconds for third unit Stalker/Sentry + Zealot = 37 seconds to finish Zealot, 60 seconds for third unit Templar + Stalker/Sentry = 50 seconds to finish St/Se, 92 seconds for third unit With the Trick (Reverting WarpGate - ReGate?) Templar + Zealot = 46 seconds to finish Zealot, 51 seconds for third unit Stalker/Sentry + Zealot = 46 seconds to finish Zealot, 51 seconds for third unit Templar + Stalker/Sentry = 55 seconds to finish St/Se, 60 seconds for third unit Stalker/Sentry -> Zealot -> Stalker/Sentry would take 60 seconds with regular Warpgating, and 51 seconds with a reversion. EDIT: Ah, you wanted a continuous list. Just keep on adding the time it takes to convert from Warpgate to Gateway (3 seconds), as well as the Zealot build time + 10 seconds. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Well damn. Its true. | ||
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shammythefox
United Kingdom286 Posts
zealots - 33 sec build time (23 sec cd) stalkers/sentries - 42 sec built time (32 sec cd) templar - 55 sec build time (45 sec cd) zealots: Warp gate usage: Produce zealot wait 23 seconds on cooldown (yes there is a 5 second warp time but the cooldown activates during this time not afterwards so in terms of continuous production it is irrelevant) produce zealot wait 23 seconds produce zealot add 5 seconds at the end of whatever number of zealots you want to create so for 4, 97 seconds, as for continuous production, we're going to leave it out, as we're assuming a production that can support infinite cycles. 23 seconds per zealot, 92 for 4 Switch method: Create zealot & beging morphing to gateway 3 seconds Create zealot 33 seconds Morph to gateway 10 seconds produce zealot and begin morphing 3 seconds produce zealot 33 seconds Morph to warpgate 10 seconds 92 seconds, exactly the same. Where the confusion may have come from is that in your tests you are counting the first 3 zealots produced, the problem is that this is not a complete cycle! As this method produces very burst production (33 seconds wait time then two zealots in 10 seconds) so by cutting off your test at the correct time will give an untrue value. Stalker/sentry warpgate: 32 seconds per stalker 32 * 4 = 128 seconds for 4 stalkers suggested method: Produce stalker and begin morphing to gateway 3 seconds produce stalker 42 seconds morph to gateway 10 seconds produce stalker & begin morphing to gateway 3 seconds produce stalker 42 seconds morph to gateway 10 seconds = 110 seconds for 4 stalkers, 27.5 seconds per stalker, an increase of 4.5 seconds per unit (14%) Templar Warpgates: 45 seconds per templar 45*4 = 180 seconds for 4 switch method: Produce templar & begin morphing to gateway 3 seconds produce templar 55 seconds morph to warpgate 10 seconds Produce templar & begin morphing to gateway 3 seconds produce templar 55 seconds morph to warpgate 10 seconds = 136 seconds for 4, 34 seconds per templar, an increase of 11 seconds (24%) As you can see for anything above zealots this method does produce faster over an infinite loop; however its important to remember at what cost this comes 1. it is obviously a HUGE apm sink, and one missed cycle can leave your warpgates completely out of action for a long period and cost you games 2. You lose the really primary reason for getting warpgates, 10 seconds off the production time from a normal gateway pales in comparison to the ability for burst production in any location desired, for instance the above method would be useless for reinforcing a push TL;DR: warpgates: zealots : 23 seconds per stalker/sentry: 32 seconds per templar: 45 seconds per Switch method: zealots: 23 seconds per stalker/sentry: 27.5 seconds per templar: 34 seconds per | ||
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Invictus
Singapore2697 Posts
I guess you are better off doing this in the early-mid phase of the game, but when you reach late game its generally better to get more warpgates and babysit your army so it doesnt die due to the fact that you are so busy trying to do this for a huge amount of warpgates | ||
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Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
It isn't really useful in mid to late game, where you can easily add 1-2 warpgates. But it might be viable in the early game / for a timing push, even tho you have to consider what nony said earlier in this thread. The fact that you have to pay your units in advance is HUGE, especially for the early game / timing push. Which of both weight more (paying in advance or faster building-time) in a specific build is nothing math can tell us (right now), only time will tell. It might be used for something like pimpest play when the bases of both the players are destroyed in the late game and someone is using it to win the game tho :D | ||
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PGHammer
United States132 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:55 Azuremen wrote: Um, no. Warpgate cool down is the unit's Gateway production time -10 seconds, starting after the 5 second Warp in period. So, according to the OP's suggestion, the math goes as such for Stalkers... Warp In + Gateway Change + Production + Warpgate Change + Warp in = 3 units. 5 + 3 + 42 + 10 + 5 = 65 seconds for 3 Stalkers Versus pure Warpgate for Stalkers. Warp in + Cooldown + Warp in + Cooldown + Warp in= 3 units 5 + 32 + 5 + 32 + 5 = 79 seconds for 3 Stalkers The down side is one Stalker will be at your base, but if you are just Macro'ing before you push out, that won't be an issue. But during an attack, it would be better to just warp in at your forward pylon, as travel distance would negate any gain from slightly faster production. However, I fear for many people this will be to APM taxing and will require solid timing and using both W and a hotkey for the Gateways. I could see this being extremely useful in clutch situations where a push has failed, and you need to replace units ASAP for defense against a counter-push. The APM problem is why I don't use it (instead, I do a straight 4-gate right off, leaving the option for a 6-gate if I can stay defensive long enough when a second Nexus comes online). It still leaves the option of combining a Warp Pylon (in Pylon mode, naturally) as an adjunct to a 4-gate or larger to reinforce a push if you get stonewalled. in the area of the opponent's base. | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
To be fair, late game it probably will be much less useful, because once you hit 200/200 it's better to have a ton of warpgates to replenish your army immediately in battle, right by the front line to overwhelm the enemy. However I see a lot of early game potential with this, once it is properly worked into a build, as building 1 less gateway could mean a faster expansion, or a whatever you wish to put the minerals towards. Switching does require building 2 units practically at once and bursts your spending, but if Zerg can adapt to saving money for the 4 larva that pop from Spawn Larva, then Protoss can adapt to 2 units at once. With the best combination (templar warp zealot build), your production ends up being close to twice as efficient as a regular gateway, whereas warpgates aren't even half that. 6 Templar x 55t + 6 zealots x 32t would take 522 time. Just warpgate takes 6T x 45t + 6Z x 23t = 408 time. If switching back and forth, it only takes 266 time, which is only 10 time units longer than half of Gateway time, almost double efficiency. At this most extreme example, switching back and forth actually gives you MORE (additional 142 less time) of a boost than the Warpgate gave to your Gateway(114 less time). A second Warp Gate is better than 1 Gate switching, but switching is better than getting a 3rd gate. It does require more macro, but the extras macro is spread out over transform time, so its not necessarily more intensive apm wise. Also, the delay on even units dissapears very rapidly. If making Stalkers/Sentries (zealots are useless to switch for) the 2nd and 4th stalkers are delayed (by 13 and 4 time respectively), but every stalker thereafter comes out faster . Warpgate Stalkers 4@96 5@128 6@160 7@192 vs Warp>Gate Stalkers 4@100 5@110 6@155 7@165 13 time is quite negligible of a delay, thus it really doesn't hurt your army strength too much to switch outside of 1/2 the units spawning instead of warping to where you want them. Here are some other interesting times. Z=Zealot S=Stalker/Sentry T=HIgh/Dark Templar All times go until beginning of Warp in of last unit, beginning WG cooldown. Warp Only Units Time Food 11S 320 22 8T 315 16 Switching Units Time Food 13S 330 26 8S+7Z 322 30 11T 340 22 (9 T @ 272) 8T+7Z 322 30 7T+6S 330 26 Liquipedia lists both Templars as 2 food, though this doesn't sound right, may be flawed on food. Unfortunately Templar build times don't stack so well, but since this is in game time, the 15 total time difference will only amount to just over 10 seconds difference, so they're all fairly close to the same time. Also observe that when spamming the same units the gain is much smaller (2-3 units) as opposed to using different units (4-7 units). Switching the Warpgate back into a Gateway when building different units can significantly boost your production, even over the boost gained from warpgate. The extra units are also gained at a good oportunity cost in most of the combinations, such as 1 templar and 15 more time for 7 zealots. If chrono boost affects both the Warpgate cooldown and the Gateway unit build time, you are also effectively chronoboosting 2 things for the price of one. Conclusion: Late game it is better to have many warp gates to instantly replenish a 200 army while it is in battle, as well as the warping around for mobility. While not as good as a 2nd gateway, the cumulative effect of faster time when switching and this effect applying to ALL gateways you build, make this quite powerful. Since switching provides an even greater boost than warp gate itself gives, warp gates are only half as effective as they could be if not switched. Chronoboost can also be used twice as effectively, saving you 10 time from 2 units per cast, instead of 10 time from 1 unit/research. If not spamming a single unit type, this adds a significant boost. As soon as the beta comes back up, this sort of mechanics should absolutely be worked in standard protoss play until late-midgame, when minerals start to accumulate for more gates and mobility becomes more important. | ||
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brocoli
Brazil264 Posts
Someone even named it "ReGating" back then. EDIT: something I didn't see in this thread: This is all compatible with Chrono Boost. It will affect both the Gateway production time and the WG cooldown simultaneously. Now, can someone test if CB will reduce the transformation period? | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
0:00 Drop HT (cooldown starts), start turning into a Gateway 0:03 Start building a Zealot 0:05 HT finishes warping in 0:36 Zealot finishes building, start turning into a Warp Gate 0:45 HT cooldown finishes 0:46 Finished turning into a Warp Gate So, for 1 extra second, you can fit in a free Zealot while the 45s cooldown of the HT is plodding along and now you can warp-in the next unit. | ||
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dbddbddb
Singapore969 Posts
I don't think sacrificial APM needed to pull of this maneuver of converting a wg to gateway and back again is worth it in a real match unless it's for a timing push. | ||
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
On June 22 2010 08:51 brocoli wrote: Now, can someone test if CB will reduce the transformation period? It does. I had no idea that it would be faster to swap back and forth. I never understood why there was even a button to revert back, as I always thought WGs were just strictly better than GWs. | ||
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gerundium
Netherlands786 Posts
On June 22 2010 10:05 dbddbddb wrote: Wouldn't chrono boosting your warpgates be better? I mean in mid-late games where you have 3+ nexus up, you are bound to have excess energy on all of then. Just spam chrono boost on warpgates to make units faster. Isn't that more straight forward? I don't think sacrificial APM needed to pull of this maneuver of converting a wg to gateway and back again is worth it in a real match unless it's for a timing push. early game this could be huge. late game mere mortals can't micro this effectively probably. | ||
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Turbo.Tactics
Germany675 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45049 Posts
We also have to take into account the fact that Gateway units have to move to a certain position on the map (starting from the Gateway), whereas Warpgate units almost always have a shorter distance (through proxy Pylons). I wonder if this would make the "Gateshuffle" completely useless... imagine needing to warp-in units, but they all happened to be Gateways at the time :-/ | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:32 crate wrote: ... As a warpgate, it takes 45 + 23 = 68 seconds to warp-in both units and then have the warpgate off-cooldown again. If instead you warp-in the templar, immediately switch to a gateway, and gateway-build the zealot then change back to a warpgate, you will have both units done and your warpgate off cooldown in 46 seconds (13 to switch + 33 for zealot). ... Alright so this is definitely a great post. I would really like to highlight what might be the largest and most awesome tactical use for this feature of the gateway-warpgate switch. As the OP exemplified, you can produce a templar with warp gate, or other unit aside from a zealot plus a zealot with the gateway-warpgate switch and have time to spare in comparison to making those 2 units with just the warp gate. So, what really seems practical is using your warpgates to warp in anything but a zealot (unless of course that's your plan) and using the switch to pump reinforcement zealots in the down time. I hear people complaining about rally points with this, I really think people are exaggerating how hard this is. As a player who doesn't use just the "W" key for his warpgate/gateway selection setting a rally point while either transformation is going on is not hard at all, it's 1 more click, lol. I know for a fucking fact I will be using(trying and probably failing, but practice makes perfect) this when I am not in dire need of more zealots to mass reinforce my attacking army with zealots. AWESOME SUGGESTION OP! <3 | ||
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Turbo.Tactics
Germany675 Posts
I hear people complaining about rally points with this, I really think people are exaggerating how hard this is. As a player who doesn't use just the "W" key for his warpgate/gateway selection setting a rally point while either transformation is going on is not hard at all, it's 1 more click, lol. It's not really about rally points. It's just the fact that if you are on Desert Oasis and have a pylon at the enemys base, the shuffle is pretty much useless, as it takes "not-warped-zealots" longer to get to the place where they are used than through warpgates. If you are defending it may be useful but then again, you are busy with other stuff when marauders try to kick your pylons/gates. If you really want to do the math: try to calculate the break even for Gateshuffle vs straight warp. Something like "if you are moving more then 70 yards with zealots you better warp!" Ah and if you are at it, you would also have to do it for every warpgate unit in the different combinations. Ah and also remember to take stalker blink into account because the faster you have them out, the faster the cooldown of blink is gone. I'll pass on that.... | ||
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RisingTide
Australia769 Posts
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