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On May 18 2010 03:55 Azuremen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 03:48 Tin_Foil wrote:
The warpgate doesn't use unit production times. Warpgates always cool down in the same amount of time, I think its 30 seconds, so your times are incorrect.
I think you method may be faster once, but if you tried it again youd have to add the change time in twice, Im not sure though.
Um, no. Warpgate cool down is the unit's Gateway production time -10 seconds, starting after the 5 second Warp in period. So, according to the OP's suggestion, the math goes as such for Stalkers... Warp In + Gateway Change + Production + Warpgate Change + Warp in = 3 units. 5 + 3 + 42 + 10 + 5 = 65 seconds for 3 Stalkers Versus pure Warpgate for Stalkers. Warp in + Cooldown + Warp in + Cooldown + Warp in= 3 units 5 + 32 + 5 + 32 + 5 = 79 seconds for 3 Stalkers The down side is one Stalker will be at your base, but if you are just Macro'ing before you push out, that won't be an issue. But during an attack, it would be better to just warp in at your forward pylon, as travel distance would negate any gain from slightly faster production. However, I fear for many people this will be to APM taxing and will require solid timing and using both W and a hotkey for the Gateways. I could see this being extremely useful in clutch situations where a push has failed, and you need to replace units ASAP for defense against a counter-push.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you will only be at a significant advantage when warping in an odd number of units. Thus if a fourth stalker was warped in off pure warp gates then it would be almost or equally efficient as compared to warp->gate->warp->gate. This combined with the fact that it is very mechanically demanding and you can only warp in every other unit to any location make it a bit impractical.
Still it's a very good find and may have uses in the early game.
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Interesting. Unfortunately, one would think Blizzard would prevent this from ahppening if it turns out to be viable.
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I can see this really making a difference in the early game when I am being pressured by marauders. Warp in a stalker, switch to gateway, make a zealot, switch to warpgate, warp in a stalker...
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On May 18 2010 04:21 Sabu113 wrote:
Interesting. Unfortunately, one would think Blizzard would prevent this from ahppening if it turns out to be viable.
not necessarily. blizzard does realize little things like this make the game more interesting
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On May 18 2010 04:09 getSome[703] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 03:55 Azuremen wrote:On May 18 2010 03:48 Tin_Foil wrote:
The warpgate doesn't use unit production times. Warpgates always cool down in the same amount of time, I think its 30 seconds, so your times are incorrect.
I think you method may be faster once, but if you tried it again youd have to add the change time in twice, Im not sure though.
Um, no. Warpgate cool down is the unit's Gateway production time -10 seconds, starting after the 5 second Warp in period. So, according to the OP's suggestion, the math goes as such for Stalkers... Warp In + Gateway Change + Production + Warpgate Change + Warp in = 3 units. 5 + 3 + 42 + 10 + 5 = 65 seconds for 3 Stalkers Versus pure Warpgate for Stalkers. Warp in + Cooldown + Warp in + Cooldown + Warp in= 3 units 5 + 32 + 5 + 32 + 5 = 79 seconds for 3 Stalkers The down side is one Stalker will be at your base, but if you are just Macro'ing before you push out, that won't be an issue. But during an attack, it would be better to just warp in at your forward pylon, as travel distance would negate any gain from slightly faster production. However, I fear for many people this will be to APM taxing and will require solid timing and using both W and a hotkey for the Gateways. I could see this being extremely useful in clutch situations where a push has failed, and you need to replace units ASAP for defense against a counter-push. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you will only be at a significant advantage when warping in an odd number of units. Thus if a fourth stalker was warped in off pure warp gates then it would be almost or equally efficient as compared to warp->gate->warp->gate. This combined with the fact that it is very mechanically demanding and you can only warp in every other unit to any location make it a bit impractical. Still it's a very good find and may have uses in the early game.
Significant gain can still be had. I used 3 units because to see the full benefit from a Warpgate to Gateway back to Warpgate, you need 3 unit cycles.
Basically, to get a Stalker from a Warpgate, you have a 37 (5 + 32) second cycle between Warp in. So each cycle +5, thus 6 Stalkers from Gates is
5(37) + 5 = 190 seconds
The math on the Warp/Gate system is a bit different due to benefits only occuring every 2 unit cycles, thus ready for production every 55 seconds with Stalkers, but you get 2 in those 55 seconds. And since it was noted you can change to a Gateway immediately after Warp in, the 5 second period can be ignored till the "end" of your production cycles, and you can subtract 10 seconds from initial math in even numbers as the time to move back to a Warpgate is not part of the cycle. So 6 Stalkers using this mechanic would be...
3(55) - 10 = 155 seconds
And note if you include Warpgate change over of 10 seconds
3(55) = 165 seconds, and you are ready to Warp in another unit, so 7 units in 170 seconds versus 6 in 190 seconds.
Gains are higher with DT or HT and Stalkers or Sentries due to the longer Cooldown being ignored, since Cooldown would count during the 42 + 3 + 10 production/change over time for a Stalker.
Though, I am at work so my math maybe flawed, and if so, please let me know.
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im assuming you don't know that you can chrono boost a warpgate while is cooling down for faster cooldown
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Wait. If it's running the warpgate cooldown and building a unit as a gateway at the same time, won't chronoboosting speed up both those timers?
If so, chronoboosting this would be insanely awesome. I'm going to go test it.
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You are wrong, switching the gateway back and forth results in the exact same production rate as leaving it a warpgate. The 30% reduction in build time is not factored into your calculations. I thought about this very early in the beta and tested it. Provided warp gates have not been stealth changed it is still the same. There is absolutely no benefit to swapping your gates.
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question: if you chrono a gateway that has recently been changed from a warpgate...does the chrono help the warpgate cooldown as well as speed up the building unit in the gateway?
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On May 18 2010 04:42 smore wrote:
question: if you chrono a gateway that has recently been changed from a warpgate...does the chrono help the warpgate cooldown as well as speed up the building unit in the gateway?
Yes, but read my post above.
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On May 18 2010 04:42 Wr3k wrote:
You are wrong, switching the gateway back and forth results in the exact same production rate as leaving it a warpgate. The 30% reduction in build time is not factored into your calculations. I thought about this very early in the beta and tested it. Provided warp gates have not been stealth changed it is still the same.
Explain?
I factored in the warpgate production boost: it's 10 seconds less cooldown for every unit (I already linked to the relevant Liquipedia page). This is never actually a 30% reduction, though it's pretty close for zealots.
For zealots you indeed get no boost.
For every other unit combination you get at least a small production boost for each pair of units.
Re: chrono boost: I haven't tested this explicitly IIRC, but I think it should speed both the warpgate cooldown reduction and the gateway production.
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On May 18 2010 03:59 thebluehawk wrote:
That's very interesting actually. But like Azuremen said, it would probably be way too APM taxing. If people can successfully pull off a crazy timing push using this method, blizz will probably just make it so the warp gate cooldown only decreases while the building is in warp gate mode, which would easily and effectively kill this very creative strategy.
but if you make gateways less valuable, on one would use them once warpgates are upgraded
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On May 18 2010 04:45 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 04:42 Wr3k wrote:
You are wrong, switching the gateway back and forth results in the exact same production rate as leaving it a warpgate. The 30% reduction in build time is not factored into your calculations. I thought about this very early in the beta and tested it. Provided warp gates have not been stealth changed it is still the same. Explain? I factored in the warpgate production boost: it's 10 seconds less cooldown for every unit (I already linked to the relevant Liquipedia page). For zealots you indeed get no boost. For every other unit combination you get at least a small production boost for each pair of units. Re: chrono boost: I haven't tested this explicitly IIRC, but I think it should speed both the warpgate cooldown reduction and the gateway production.
When I tested it it was exactly the same. I'm not sure where this "10 seconds" thing came in, I could have sworn it was 30% reduction off of the original build time, not a flat 10 seconds.
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On May 18 2010 04:38 Project.SmyD wrote:
im assuming you don't know that you can chrono boost a warpgate while is cooling down for faster cooldown
I believe anyone looking at this would be fully aware of that you can Chronoboost a cooldown on a Warpgate. See below...
On May 18 2010 04:41 randomnine wrote:
Wait. If it's running the warpgate cooldown and building a unit as a gateway at the same time, won't chronoboosting speed up both those timers?
If so, chronoboosting this would be insanely awesome. I'm going to go test it.
This would be nearly OP I feel, as you can also Chrono Warpgate change over as well, so literally half the math involved, plus ignoring the 5 second Warp in phase as I don't think you can cut the Warp in time (please correct me if I am mistaken, I usually Chronoboost my gates after Warp in finishes)
On May 18 2010 04:42 Wr3k wrote:
You are wrong, switching the gateway back and forth results in the exact same production rate as leaving it a warpgate. The 30% reduction in build time is not factored into your calculations. I thought about this very early in the beta and tested it. Provided warp gates have not been stealth changed it is still the same. There is absolutely no benefit to swapping your gates.
You are mistaken. As has been mentioned several times in this thread, Cooldown is unit Production time minus 10 seconds. See my math above.
And before you attempt to tell us we are wrong again, Liquipedia entry on Warpgates.
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On May 18 2010 04:51 Azuremen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 04:38 Project.SmyD wrote:
im assuming you don't know that you can chrono boost a warpgate while is cooling down for faster cooldown I believe anyone looking at this would be fully aware of that you can Chronoboost a cooldown on a Warpgate. See below... Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 04:41 randomnine wrote:
Wait. If it's running the warpgate cooldown and building a unit as a gateway at the same time, won't chronoboosting speed up both those timers?
If so, chronoboosting this would be insanely awesome. I'm going to go test it. This would be nearly OP I feel, as you can also Chrono Warpgate change over as well, so literally half the math involved, plus ignoring the 5 second Warp in phase as I don't think you can cut the Warp in time (please correct me if I am mistaken, I usually Chronoboost my gates after Warp in finishes) Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 04:42 Wr3k wrote:
You are wrong, switching the gateway back and forth results in the exact same production rate as leaving it a warpgate. The 30% reduction in build time is not factored into your calculations. I thought about this very early in the beta and tested it. Provided warp gates have not been stealth changed it is still the same. There is absolutely no benefit to swapping your gates. You are mistaken. As has been mentioned several times in this thread, Cooldown is unit Production time minus 10 seconds. See my math above. And before you attempt to tell us we are wrong again, Liquipedia entry on Warpgates.
Dare I say liquipedia could be wrong? Until someone tests it and provides proof I am going to go with what I observed through my own testing months ago. You do realize liquipedia is a WIKI right?
The only source quoted on the wiki page is this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114353
Which supports my claims. Warp gate is -30% not -10 seconds. If you disagree, feel free to test it and prove me wrong. I encourage you, because I do not currently have access to a computer with SC2.
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The thought of chronoboost doubling up on warpgate + gateway AND having warp->gate->warp be faster anyways sounds more like a nightmare (as a zerg player) than anything else.
It's something I've always wondered about though, so glad to see the math on it. Sure you lose the warp, but if you're trying to mass units for a push who cares? The earlier your push comes the harder it is to defend, and you are initially making the units in your base anyways.
Also I've always thought that there has to be a reason you can turn warpgates back to gateways. I suppose it's just a noob friendly thing, but that seems silly.
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I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that some Blizzard guy had said that they dont expect good players to ever go from Warpgates back to Gateways, so I think its safe to say this is not intended.
I hope they dont fix it though, because it sounds interesting.
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I thought that you couldn't change from a Warpgate to a Gateway while the Warpgate was cooloing down?
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On May 18 2010 04:54 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 04:51 Azuremen wrote:On May 18 2010 04:38 Project.SmyD wrote:
im assuming you don't know that you can chrono boost a warpgate while is cooling down for faster cooldown I believe anyone looking at this would be fully aware of that you can Chronoboost a cooldown on a Warpgate. See below... On May 18 2010 04:41 randomnine wrote:
Wait. If it's running the warpgate cooldown and building a unit as a gateway at the same time, won't chronoboosting speed up both those timers?
If so, chronoboosting this would be insanely awesome. I'm going to go test it. This would be nearly OP I feel, as you can also Chrono Warpgate change over as well, so literally half the math involved, plus ignoring the 5 second Warp in phase as I don't think you can cut the Warp in time (please correct me if I am mistaken, I usually Chronoboost my gates after Warp in finishes) On May 18 2010 04:42 Wr3k wrote:
You are wrong, switching the gateway back and forth results in the exact same production rate as leaving it a warpgate. The 30% reduction in build time is not factored into your calculations. I thought about this very early in the beta and tested it. Provided warp gates have not been stealth changed it is still the same. There is absolutely no benefit to swapping your gates. You are mistaken. As has been mentioned several times in this thread, Cooldown is unit Production time minus 10 seconds. See my math above. And before you attempt to tell us we are wrong again, Liquipedia entry on Warpgates. Dare I say liquipedia could be wrong? Until someone tests it and provides proof I am going to go with what I observed through my own testing months ago. You do realize liquipedia is a WIKI right?
I'll screenshot the game for you when I get home in 4 hours. Or you can do it yourself right now and look at the cooldown timers displayed in the overlays at the Warpgates.
With a Zealot, it is 30%, but with a Stalker/Sentry its around 22%, a HT/DT is around 18%.
This could explain your testing results.
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I'm pretty excited about the early game implications of this  I'm also interested in the timings, because I read on other sites as well that warpgate is -10s from the original build time. I'll have to do some testing when I get home, unless someone else does it first ^^
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EPT
