On May 15 2010 11:55 Johoseph wrote: Roaches are basically shitty marauders now. Marauders get to stim, have twice the range, faster attack speed, concussive shell, and +dmg to armored which is essentially king in this game. And it costs them an extra 25 minerals (which probably equates to nothing with mules in play)... woooo.
Hadn't actually watched QXC vs. Slush until now. Even Day9 says they'll probably readjust roach to 2 armor, which would be a push in the right direction, although I kind of wonder how much it would help when they sit at 2 food now. Slush even had a nice unit comp in the 2nd game, mutas, lings, blings, AND a handful of roaches, still failed to... gues what? MMM. Nice.
If this next string of nerf nerf nerf buff buff buff on the roach doesn't work, they're gonna have to figure some kind of major change out for them, unit just ain't gellin right now, it's either too strong or too weak.
Zerg needs some sort of endgame option to deal with the Terran ball... I'm hoping for something "darkswarm" inspired. It also needs a early game buff or else Z will have to wait until lair to be able to move out to get map control.
Darkswarm inspired? Seen the Raven and Point Defense Drone?
Anyway, I think people are completely blowing the qxc vs, SLush game out of proportion. Yes it was a new patch and it could have bothered SLush, but then again when I look at the game it's quite evident that qxc was simply a better player when it came to control, positioning, upgrades, micro and macro (not saying SLush is bad, but qxc is a better player imo in that series).
The Roach nerf isn't some huge early game nerf, it doesn't cut your Roach numbers by 50%, it nerfs the ridiculous amounts of Roaches available late game (it was seriously way too much especially considering the late game upgrades available to them).
it does affect early game, i thought at 1st that it does not but it really does
especialy int the zvp match were roach are the core unit, in zvt, they're kinda like an xtra boost but not core army (cept for slush it seems). in the early game when a toss goes for a standard 4 game timing attack ur # of roaches is a fraction of what it was b4, u dont nearly seem to have enough b/c of the +1 supply added to them. this causes for more overlords to be made, while still trying to get your roaches out slowing down the whole process its selft
sure there is got to be other possiblities that we havnt seen or tried yet but really, i bevlie this nerf was quite huge on zerg and should be adjusted
*also does anyone know why they got this nerf in teh 1st place? i thought everytime blizz was giving stats on a the races/matchups they were practialy even showing decent balance
**2nd also, for ppl talking about the warp gate nerf in previous patches, how is that relavent, wasnt every single player in teh beta bitching about that tec ecept for the one using it? the toss hated it, the zerg hated it and the terran most definatly hated it
How do you have a fraction of the Roaches? Sure, now it takes like 20 seconds more to get the same amount of Roaches, but it's not half the amount of Roaches.
4 Gate is not standard play.
well most toss are getting cheesy agreesvie with this play
and yes ur do have a fractoing of units early b/c ur constanly blocked by overlords equating for a smaller amount of roaches come time of attack making u get rolled, or if u survie, take heavy losses
and at condoriano
u can beat the tank pretty ez, by spreading ur force, flaking and hitting them with fungal to lower there hp, they die pretty fast underfire but having higher supply for the base unit to attack, makes less units for flank, and weaker flank means tanks splat all
Has anyone said anything about zergs not droneing so hard late game? I think the best way to deal with the food change is managing your econ alot better. Sure, zerg can produce works like crazy whenever the enemy screws up but now you have to think about it instead of over saturating your base.
Part of me doesn't mind zerg having this liability late-game when they have a large advantage early-mid game. A passive zerg will now lose in large 200/200 fights, they have to be more aggressive or pull back on drones a bit if they want to expand and macro. All of those bases and heavy macro now have a slight drawback... now if we want that or not is a different story.
On May 15 2010 14:42 Chro wrote: Has anyone said anything about zergs not droneing so hard late game? I think the best way to deal with the food change is managing your econ alot better. Sure, zerg can produce works like crazy whenever the enemy screws up but now you have to think about it instead of over saturating your base.
Part of me doesn't mind zerg having this liability late-game when they have a large advantage early-mid game. A passive zerg will now lose in large 200/200 fights, they have to be more aggressive or pull back on drones a bit if they want to expand and macro. All of those bases and heavy macro now have a slight drawback... now if we want that or not is a different story.
if there is not dronin, no units being produced, but yes stopping at a certian amount may help out slightly, but it would only be small, ie cutting 20 drones = 10 roach which still doenst make much of a dif (it does but not huge) when comparing 20 drones = 20 roach
On May 15 2010 14:40 Oodama wrote: u can beat the tank pretty ez, by spreading ur force, flaking and hitting them with fungal to lower there hp, they die pretty fast underfire but having higher supply for the base unit to attack, makes less units for flank, and weaker flank means tanks splat all
Tell that to every top zerg that's getting rolled past few days, did you look at the screenshot above your post? "it's pretty ez" lawl
On May 15 2010 14:40 Oodama wrote: u can beat the tank pretty ez, by spreading ur force, flaking and hitting them with fungal to lower there hp, they die pretty fast underfire but having higher supply for the base unit to attack, makes less units for flank, and weaker flank means tanks splat all
Tell that to every top zerg that's getting rolled past few days, did you look at the screenshot above your post? "it's pretty ez" lawl
On May 15 2010 11:09 Mohdoo wrote: Every time a race has a nerf, the race does horribly shitting for like 2 weeks. Just look at what happened to Toss after the Warpgate nerf and Terran after the Marauder nerf.
Remember when people freaked out and said they would quit Protoss after Warpgate nerfs? Remember when people freaked out and said they would quit Terran after Concussive shell being an upgrade?
You guys only make yourselves look silly by making such a big deal out of this. In the late game, it was a 145 hp unit that regenerated HP as quickly as Storm does damage, did 16 base damage, and moved fast enough. It was totally out of control for big games with lots of bases and high tech.
Umm, people did freak out and leave protoss and terran, then blizzard buffed both the races, did you forget that small detail?
Where are you getting these stats from? Stop making up generalities and citing them as facts; that's a logical fallacy.
Remember when spawning pool went from 150 minerals to 200 in BW? That's a more gigantic nerf than all the nerfs in SC2 thus far combined. Yet did people stop playing Zerg in BW? Play a change before complaining about it.
um, do you remember why they changed the cost from 150m to 200m?
cause 4pool was the ultimate strategy that couldn't lose.
kind of like that time with the 6pool exploit were zerg stacked larvae.
On May 15 2010 11:09 Mohdoo wrote: Every time a race has a nerf, the race does horribly shitting for like 2 weeks. Just look at what happened to Toss after the Warpgate nerf and Terran after the Marauder nerf.
Remember when people freaked out and said they would quit Protoss after Warpgate nerfs? Remember when people freaked out and said they would quit Terran after Concussive shell being an upgrade?
You guys only make yourselves look silly by making such a big deal out of this. In the late game, it was a 145 hp unit that regenerated HP as quickly as Storm does damage, did 16 base damage, and moved fast enough. It was totally out of control for big games with lots of bases and high tech.
Umm, people did freak out and leave protoss and terran, then blizzard buffed both the races, did you forget that small detail?
Where are you getting these stats from? Stop making up generalities and citing them as facts; that's a logical fallacy.
Remember when spawning pool went from 150 minerals to 200 in BW? That's a more gigantic nerf than all the nerfs in SC2 thus far combined. Yet did people stop playing Zerg in BW? Play a change before complaining about it.
um, do you remember why they changed the cost from 150m to 200m?
cause 4pool was the ultimate strategy that couldn't lose.
kind of like that time with the 6pool exploit were zerg stacked larvae.
that was back when sc1 just came out and people dont know workers with micro can put up a decent fight against lings, now zergs get bunker rushed because of that change and its much harder to defend
On May 15 2010 14:25 condoriano wrote: Attention is drawn to roach nerf but in reality it's siege splash buff that is killing zerg even more
Very important point.. I noticed yesterday how I made several comebacks against zerg armies 50 supply or so ahead of me once I rolled out some siege tanks. (with some hero tanks getting close to 30 kills) But it was always due to positioning, another time a smaller force annihilated me when zerg split his forces for a surround. I thought that was actually pretty cool, positional play is so very important.
On May 15 2010 13:42 guitarizt wrote: I think the tournaments coming out are showing that zerg's maxed army is too weak against the other races and they don't really have any other options. I wouldn't mind it if they just took roaches out of the game and tried something else. I remember when I first started playing the beta I didn't even make roaches for my first 10-20 games or so and even back then before any patches I didn't like them.
Well the pressure has always been on terran/protoss to push into zerg constantly or they'll power drones and larva and mass an insane army (often involving many roaches). With this change blizzard might very well be attempting to level the playing field, forcing zergs to play more aggressively.
Are you kidding me? You want zergs to play more aggressively now? With what? With reduced roach numbers all we can do is stay on the defensive. Lings are fragile. Hydras are fragile. Banelings die on impact. Mutas are resource whores that die to just about anything that shoots up.
Ling/Hydra is possibly the most fragile army in the game. It's survivability is horrendously low. Hydras cost 100/50 and 2 supply and yet they absolutely MELT to hellions/tanks/colossi thanks to Blizzard's 80 hp and "light" armour debuff. Roaches are still an option, but much later than they were before. So I'm asking you: What am I supposed to move out with since either my army will be split in 2 by forcefields or split in two and raped by concussive shells and hellions? Do you want us to 6 pool every game to stay "aggressive" by your standards?
Right now the best opening in all 3 MUs is speedling/banelings. It's just sad that instead of some teching and expanding we have to make 3x the amount of units we needed to before to defend since mnm and P balls melt zerg units.
Zerg always needed to expand to stay in the game, to match the economy and superior units of the other 2 races.
On May 15 2010 16:06 Topazas wrote: The new Thor looks lame :<
The Roaches should require 1,5 control maybe?
It's very likely 1,5 will turn out to be the best. Not sure if Blizzard wants to do that though. Thinking about it it's pretty weird they managed to balance their games before without using halfs with exception of lings. It seems 1,5 could come in handy often when looking for a balance of 200/200 armies.
The mentality of a zerg player is to survive and adapt.
Recently, alot of Z users are pretty dismayed at the supply change for roaches. Coping with 0 wins and X losses < X = insert a random number> is bruising on the ego. Something that can help is to take a page out from what we did in Brood War. Mutas in Brood War are 2 supply units. When the spire is 33% or 50% done depending on the number of hatches overlords were prepared in advance to anticipate to make 6-9 to 11 mutas. So for example at 33% spire for 2hatch muta build , you make 2 ovies and save the new larvae for the mutas.
Similarly, saving larvae in advance and pre allocating the overlords can be done if roaches are the correct unit counter/ unit you want. The mechanics of this can be as simple as typing svo,svo twice instead of once in your hotkey rhythm. I acknowledge many of the Z users already know this but I thought it might be useful for those still in the ordeal.
On May 15 2010 12:32 RatherGood wrote: Christ guys, learn to deal with the Roach change. Bigger changes than this have happened in beta, and players have to unlearn weeks of experience and experimentation. Remember how Marines went from 20 seconds to 25 second build time? That's arguably as substantial when you couple it with the Reactor almost being developed in production time.
The game's in beta. It's going to change. Roll with the punches. There's more than one way to play the game.
marine going from 20 to 25 .... ure comparing THAT to Roach 2 food?
Absolutely. Combined with the Reactor change, it utterly changed the first 8 minutes of the game for Terran. Admittedly, it's less drastic in the late game, but the point is that game changing changes are and will happen. Just deal with 'em.
Roachless zerg hasn't as bad as I thought so far. It sure as made zvz more interesting. Aggressive protosses have been a lot harder to deal with though.
On May 15 2010 17:42 Drowsy wrote: Roachless zerg hasn't as bad as I thought so far. It sure as made zvz more interesting. Aggressive protosses have been a lot harder to deal with though.
I disagree about zvz being more interesting. Even more of a speedling vs speedling fest than it used to be.
I think now that the roaches are 2 supply they should bring back how they were pre patch 1. They were ok with one supply but 2 they need to be buffed. I was playing zvt today and i found that my t oponent had more units then i had. Acording to blizzard zerg is the many unit that are weak and cheap so why did they change it so roaches are less in number. I can see that roaches in late game are hard to beat but isnt zerg best in late game.
EPT
