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On May 15 2010 22:10 heishe wrote:
no it sucks, because it takes information away from the player. it's just bad design. all information about your army should be available at any time in the game. and "half-supplies" suck, because things like 199.5/200 can happen, where you can't build any other units.
and don't say it won't make a difference. in one of a million games it will, and then it will suck. it's just bad design.
its called zerglings
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On May 16 2010 06:09 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2010 05:54 Koffiegast wrote:On May 16 2010 04:28 Lollersauce wrote:
Has anyone seen Dimaga vs jimpo?
Or Morrow vs Haypro?
I'm sorry but it's pretty obvious the roach nerf is overdone. Mind linking/telling where to see it? http://www.sc2win.com
Keep in mind, its only a couple of the six games where the Zerg invests in a roach warren, but it shows they can't reach critical mass to fight off the hellion, marauder combo in the early game. At least that's my interpretation of it. I skimmed through the matches at faster x 3
^_^
There was one match where Dimaga had a ton of minerals, I'll need to go back and watch that one because I was just thinking that maybe extra hatcheries might of helped.
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just watched the morrow vs haypro on metalopolis. lol poor haypro. zerg is so underpowered right now, against protoss too.
stupid blizzard 
(i'm terran btw)
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On May 16 2010 08:48 agleed.agleed wrote:just watched the morrow vs haypro on metalopolis. lol poor haypro. zerg is so underpowered right now, against protoss too. stupid blizzard (i'm terran btw)
yea i watched it too and lol morrow had 3 tanks and nothing else till 10 min mark
abit surprises me that when terran had no chance vs zerg in previous patches in straight macro game unless he pulled off miracle with reapers, banshee or other kind of cheese it was fair, but now when T hold his ground its imba .....
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it's funny, because when I got my beta key (when gamestop started the preorder thing) I was 100% convinced that terran needed some help in both vP and vZ and as I saw the patches and steamrolled MMM balls I wasnt convinced.
That changed when I got my face smashed in a few times by the marine/viking/tank/raven build. With the roach change, it is now my opinion that terran is in fact the strongest race. and I still dont know what Im supposed to do PvT to get around the tanks since it seems like zealots get destroyed now that they clump instead of stream.
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On May 16 2010 09:42 red_b wrote:
That changed when I got my face smashed in a few times by the marine/viking/tank/raven build. With the roach change, it is now my opinion that terran is in fact the strongest race. and I still dont know what Im supposed to do PvT to get around the tanks since it seems like zealots get destroyed now that they clump instead of stream.
Browder is making Terran the strongest because he only knows how to design signleplayer games and is totally concerned with singleplayer. Multi is meaningless to an uncreative goon like Browder.
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On May 16 2010 09:42 red_b wrote:
it's funny, because when I got my beta key (when gamestop started the preorder thing) I was 100% convinced that terran needed some help in both vP and vZ and as I saw the patches and steamrolled MMM balls I wasnt convinced.
That changed when I got my face smashed in a few times by the marine/viking/tank/raven build. With the roach change, it is now my opinion that terran is in fact the strongest race. and I still dont know what Im supposed to do PvT to get around the tanks since it seems like zealots get destroyed now that they clump instead of stream.
fast colo, void rays, nony says that his phoenix build totally demolishes it
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I will by only single player and cinematic
thanks for sc2 blizzard ...but this is not starcraft.
btw:unit design and unit voice still epic fail.
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On May 16 2010 09:54 lolreaper wrote:fast colo, void rays, nony says that his phoenix build totally demolishes it
Well obviously certain things can help you win. Smashing his front door down before he can reach critical mass is the most obvious.
Is fast colo viable in a macro battle though? Clearly you are going to have a unit composition focusing mostly on lot+colossus due to gas considerations being on one base for quite a while right? I just feel disheartened as I have lost straight up to 15+ lower food count T armies I caught out of position and died nearly instantly. I dont think T is overpowered now; clearly a build with so many different units that all have to be dealt with (ravens, tanks, marines all having abilities that need to be managed) takes considerable execution. However, I just dont understand, even with better macro, how exactly I am supposed to break into a turtling T base. I never, ever have these issues against Z or P but now with tank splash being the way it is, I just havent had any success. I also wonder what I should be using to gain vision up high ground, observers are good if your opponent doesnt go raven or missle turrets.
I realize its 100% on me and my execution. It was just a huge blow to my ego to go from winning games to losing and not understanding what I could even have done differently since I lose sooooooo bad to this one style of play. As for the nony build, I should try that more than I have, but its certainly a micro intensive play style and I am not really up to the point where I can execute that as well as I think you need to to win with it.
I feel really bad for zerg players though. What exactly are they supposed to do against tanks and collosi?
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On May 16 2010 09:42 red_b wrote:
it's funny, because when I got my beta key (when gamestop started the preorder thing) I was 100% convinced that terran needed some help in both vP and vZ and as I saw the patches and steamrolled MMM balls I wasnt convinced.
That changed when I got my face smashed in a few times by the marine/viking/tank/raven build. With the roach change, it is now my opinion that terran is in fact the strongest race. and I still dont know what Im supposed to do PvT to get around the tanks since it seems like zealots get destroyed now that they clump instead of stream.
Phenix can lift siege mode tanks. There goes the positional advantage, Charge zealot and forcefield clean up almost everything else.
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On May 16 2010 08:48 agleed.agleed wrote:just watched the morrow vs haypro on metalopolis. lol poor haypro. zerg is so underpowered right now, against protoss too. stupid blizzard (i'm terran btw)
I just watched that too and I must admit, I don't know what else he could have done - I even saw him hit 200 supply and I wondered 'where is his army?'
1.5 supply roach indeed or seriously buff it (and I play Protoss)
Terran is the race which bothers me the most.
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Just watched the first game of Jinpo vs DiMaga and I'll be watching the others later. So get ready this will be a QQ thread about the Roach nerf, which I have yet to use since patch 12 myself.
I saw someone mention in another thread that it takes 3 roaches to take on 2 marauders, which in my limited Gold ladder experience seems to be about the case. So this brings me to thinking, if they want to nerf roaches to 2 supply, then marauders should be nerfed to 3. If you compare the units, Roaches have three upgrades, Marauders have just the one (two with stim), which makes them able to kite practically anything out there with stim. They have double the range of the Roach and are just so much more effective than Roaches at pretty much everything. So how can anyone justify these units being the same in supply cost? Furthermore 3 supply Marauders would also limit the masses of Marauder balls I'm seeing the Terrans use.
Also it would kind of preserve this unholy trinity thing we're seeing with Roach/Marauder/Immortal, which would now be 2/3/4 supply respectively.
Obviously I understand this is beta and things will change so I'm not really too worried. But this was just a thought I felt I should share.
Here's to waiting for a smaller Ultralisk in the next patch.
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On May 17 2010 00:57 Raisk wrote:
I saw someone mention in another thread that it takes 3 roaches to take on 2 marauders, which in my limited Gold ladder experience seems to be about the case. So this brings me to thinking, if they want to nerf roaches to 2 supply, then marauders should be nerfed to 3. If you compare the units, Roaches have three upgrades, Marauders have just the one (two with stim), which makes them able to kite practically anything out there with stim. They have double the range of the Roach and are just so much more effective than Roaches at pretty much everything. So how can anyone justify these units being the same in supply cost? Furthermore 3 supply Marauders would also limit the masses of Marauder balls I'm seeing the Terrans use.
uh huh... you do know that marauders are meant to be counters to roaches right?
According to your logic Roaches should be 3 food, since roach wins against marines in 1:3 Ratio
Also Thors should be exactly "infinite" food each, since 3 Thors can kill one shot any muta ball.
"This" Roach nerf was necessarily. 1 food for an unit that has 100+HP? oh please. I have constantly suggested that roaches should be at 2 food (of course this was before armor and regeneration nerf). That being said other previous nerfs needs to be buffed back. I am happy with the food balance but with the armor reduction and regen nerf well it's stupid.
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On May 17 2010 00:57 Raisk wrote:
Furthermore 3 supply Marauders would also limit the masses of Marauder balls I'm seeing the Terrans use.
Also it would kind of preserve this unholy trinity thing we're seeing with Roach/Marauder/Immortal, which would now be 2/3/4 supply respectively.
I like this. Marauder seems to be the last thing of tier 1 that annoy me, and that's because you don't really have the option to NOT get them. Funny how blizz patchs fixed the game from the low tiers and now is finnaly focusing in tier 3, with ultra and BC and stuff. This solution seems perfect for the problem, that is the very same of the roach, so it's very very fair IMO.
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On May 17 2010 00 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 17 2010 00 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:57 Raisk wrote:
Just watched the first game of Jinpo vs DiMaga and I'll be watching the others later. So get ready this will be a QQ thread about the Roach nerf, which I have yet to use since patch 12 myself.
I saw someone mention in another thread that it takes 3 roaches to take on 2 marauders, which in my limited Gold ladder experience seems to be about the case. So this brings me to thinking, if they want to nerf roaches to 2 supply, then marauders should be nerfed to 3. If you compare the units, Roaches have three upgrades, Marauders have just the one (two with stim), which makes them able to kite practically anything out there with stim. They have double the range of the Roach and are just so much more effective than Roaches at pretty much everything. So how can anyone justify these units being the same in supply cost? Furthermore 3 supply Marauders would also limit the masses of Marauder balls I'm seeing the Terrans use.
Also it would kind of preserve this unholy trinity thing we're seeing with Roach/Marauder/Immortal, which would now be 2/3/4 supply respectively.
Obviously I understand this is beta and things will change so I'm not really too worried. But this was just a thought I felt I should share.
Here's to waiting for a smaller Ultralisk in the next patch.
Having a 3 supply Terran tier 1.5 Barracks unit is a step into the wrong direction imo.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2010 12:04 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 00 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 17 2010 00 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:57 Raisk wrote:
Just watched the first game of Jinpo vs DiMaga and I'll be watching the others later. So get ready this will be a QQ thread about the Roach nerf, which I have yet to use since patch 12 myself.
I saw someone mention in another thread that it takes 3 roaches to take on 2 marauders, which in my limited Gold ladder experience seems to be about the case. So this brings me to thinking, if they want to nerf roaches to 2 supply, then marauders should be nerfed to 3. If you compare the units, Roaches have three upgrades, Marauders have just the one (two with stim), which makes them able to kite practically anything out there with stim. They have double the range of the Roach and are just so much more effective than Roaches at pretty much everything. So how can anyone justify these units being the same in supply cost? Furthermore 3 supply Marauders would also limit the masses of Marauder balls I'm seeing the Terrans use.
Also it would kind of preserve this unholy trinity thing we're seeing with Roach/Marauder/Immortal, which would now be 2/3/4 supply respectively.
Obviously I understand this is beta and things will change so I'm not really too worried. But this was just a thought I felt I should share.
Here's to waiting for a smaller Ultralisk in the next patch.
Having a 3 supply Terran tier 1.5 Barracks unit is a step into the wrong direction imo.
It surely does a lot for a 1.5 Barracks unit imo. Just think of the firebat back in BW, ok it's a different game and all, but you got the point.
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On May 17 2010 01:36 ooni wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 00:57 Raisk wrote:
I saw someone mention in another thread that it takes 3 roaches to take on 2 marauders, which in my limited Gold ladder experience seems to be about the case. So this brings me to thinking, if they want to nerf roaches to 2 supply, then marauders should be nerfed to 3. If you compare the units, Roaches have three upgrades, Marauders have just the one (two with stim), which makes them able to kite practically anything out there with stim. They have double the range of the Roach and are just so much more effective than Roaches at pretty much everything. So how can anyone justify these units being the same in supply cost? Furthermore 3 supply Marauders would also limit the masses of Marauder balls I'm seeing the Terrans use. uh huh... you do know that marauders are meant to be counters to roaches right? According to your logic Roaches should be 3 food, since roach wins against marines in 1:3 Ratio Also Thors should be exactly "infinite" food each, since 3 Thors can kill one shot any muta ball. "This" Roach nerf was necessarily. 1 food for an unit that has 100+HP? oh please. I have constantly suggested that roaches should be at 2 food (of course this was before armor and regeneration nerf). That being said other previous nerfs needs to be buffed back. I am happy with the food balance but with the armor reduction and regen nerf well it's stupid.
Lol well the funny thing is that terran can get away with massing marauders and do decent vs anything other than air.......... it's not like terran is FORCED to go marauders once he scouts roaches....... it's more like
"Uhmmm TvZ, huh? Well let me open with reapers and deny any type of fast expo for zerg because I'll either bunker rush his nat or keep jumping back and forth while slow ass queen can't catch me... all awhile I'm going to pump out marauders, cut scv's if I have to and move out with 1-2 reapers, 7-8 marauders and rape any reasonable amount of zerglings that a Zerg is likely to produce in order to get SOME TYPE of early economy... I'll most likely rape 2-3 spine crawlers since Marauders do so much damage to them and even if my army dies eventually to a bunch of lings with help of queen and drones - it's OK. I have a pretty wall and mules to put me ahead in minerals so I'll just fly my CC to an island, maybe, or just go straight for Banshees since my factory finished when I first attacked and I already have tech-labs... or no... I think I'll double pump vikings and rape some ovies because they're like twice as important now since only unit zerg has that's not 2 food is zergling! ... Long story short... I'm so happy to be terran!"
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I haven't had a chance to read over 78 pages, but I'm going to offer a little of my opinion on the "nerf" of the zerg.
With the roach being rendered useless now, many Z players have been switching over to hydras. For example, a FE followed by a tech lair and then straight for the hydra den. I think that everyone is familiar, or have experienced if you let the Z macro up a big hydra army, that is very hard to stop.
Of course, we already know that. By adapting, we depend on hydras now instead of roaches, and it also opens up a lot of room for banelings, imo.
Banelings deal 80 damage to buildings and 95 with full upgrades. Their splash damage doesn't do "friendly fire" on allied units. 17 of them will take out a nexus and 7(?) will take out a full pylon. Those numbers might seem high, but if you think about it, it isn't. The zerg is about swarming the opponent. Containing the opponent, and having masses of disposable units that can just keep pouring in if they die.
I personally think that banelings have a lot of potential. They were always in the roaches shadows, and now they have their time to shine. They can be used on the offense, defense, and harassment (anyone tried burrowing 1 or 2 banelings at expansions? Not only do they give you sight, but once you see the opponent building there, you can unborrow them and they'll go boom boom, taking away those 400 or 300 minerals from your opponent.
I'm protoss and I went up against a zerg that opened FE into a banelings. I was going for 2 gate aggression into FE, but the absurd amount of lings negated my aggression. He proceeded to get banelings to run into my base to kill some buildings or to take free shots at my army. He would keep making lings, banelings and teching to get a spire and hydra den to prepare for the middle and late game. I was contained all game long and couldn't do anything - I switch to stalkers to kill off the banelings? EZ PZ for him, he can just produce a whole swarm of zerglings to take them down.
I'm confident that if zerg players start going for banelings against protoss or even against terran, they will be at a huge advantage already. They're the scourges of the ground, how can you go against a suicidal unit that can lay waste upon your army and reproduce again at a high speed?
I'd love some insight on this, so please, criticize/comment away.
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it sounds great but i think youve forgotten the fact that you loose more money in making baneling than you will destroy from your oppenent, 17 banelings to kill a nexus = 1300 ressources, a nexus = 400 and i dont even take in count the number of banelings that will die before getting close enough to melee range. This is the same for banelings against every others units. There are only 2 units against whose banelings are decent : zerglings and marines
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people still defending the 1 supply roach...?
and now demanding 3food marauders..?
roach - 145HP - 1 armor - 8dps
- nifty options such as stealth mobility (burrow) and medivac-like regeneration without the food for actual medivacs
marauder - 125HP - 1 armor - 6.67dps or 13.33 dps
- nifty option such as stim (-17% health though) and concussive shells
granted, shells need a nerf; despite the fact they "only" reduce movement speed - not dps - the -50% effect is way too high. and i'd support any reduction to its bonus damage. alas, the ridiculous range cannot be nerfed or banelings will lose effectiveness, should the marauders end up in front of the marines.
however! the roach cannot get "unnerfed".
but we can talk about 1.5 food for hydras, for example.
... and 1.5 food hellions once we've opened up that can of worms.
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EPT
