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On May 18 2010 06:11 Tedder wrote:
I haven't had a chance to read over 78 pages, but I'm going to offer a little of my opinion on the "nerf" of the zerg.
With the roach being rendered useless now, many Z players have been switching over to hydras. For example, a FE followed by a tech lair and then straight for the hydra den. I think that everyone is familiar, or have experienced if you let the Z macro up a big hydra army, that is very hard to stop.
Of course, we already know that. By adapting, we depend on hydras now instead of roaches, and it also opens up a lot of room for banelings, imo.
Banelings deal 80 damage to buildings and 95 with full upgrades. Their splash damage doesn't do "friendly fire" on allied units. 17 of them will take out a nexus and 7(?) will take out a full pylon. Those numbers might seem high, but if you think about it, it isn't. The zerg is about swarming the opponent. Containing the opponent, and having masses of disposable units that can just keep pouring in if they die.
I personally think that banelings have a lot of potential. They were always in the roaches shadows, and now they have their time to shine. They can be used on the offense, defense, and harassment (anyone tried burrowing 1 or 2 banelings at expansions? Not only do they give you sight, but once you see the opponent building there, you can unborrow them and they'll go boom boom, taking away those 400 or 300 minerals from your opponent.
I'm protoss and I went up against a zerg that opened FE into a banelings. I was going for 2 gate aggression into FE, but the absurd amount of lings negated my aggression. He proceeded to get banelings to run into my base to kill some buildings or to take free shots at my army. He would keep making lings, banelings and teching to get a spire and hydra den to prepare for the middle and late game. I was contained all game long and couldn't do anything - I switch to stalkers to kill off the banelings? EZ PZ for him, he can just produce a whole swarm of zerglings to take them down.
I'm confident that if zerg players start going for banelings against protoss or even against terran, they will be at a huge advantage already. They're the scourges of the ground, how can you go against a suicidal unit that can lay waste upon your army and reproduce again at a high speed?
I'd love some insight on this, so please, criticize/comment away.
To be honest I only used mass roaches vs terran twice (out of maybe ~50 ladder ZvT's...)! I always preferred speedling/baneling/muta simply because banelings rape rines and muta ling clean up marauders... but that's only useful vs straight BIO builds where he has nothing but a ton of M&M&M... If he has 3+ thors - mutas are useless...
I think ZvP hurts the most from the roach nerf...
Mass hydra isn't as good as fast hydra to be honest... your hydra will dominate his army in early-mid game with good use of creep... but once armies start to get bigger and he has a shitload of HT's, sentries, zealots your hydra is pretty much toast... FF-Storm-Chargelots - nightnight hydra! With half as many roaches on the field it'll be EXTREMELY hard in late game.......
I haven't played a lot since last patch so I can't say for sure but it seems like a lot of zerg lose when they open up with roaches or eventually try to fit them into their army composition...
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Sweden33723 Posts
On May 16 2010 06:18 mousepad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2010 06:09 Lollersauce wrote:On May 16 2010 05:54 Koffiegast wrote:On May 16 2010 04:28 Lollersauce wrote:
Has anyone seen Dimaga vs jimpo?
Or Morrow vs Haypro?
I'm sorry but it's pretty obvious the roach nerf is overdone. Mind linking/telling where to see it? http://www.sc2win.com Keep in mind, its only a couple of the six games where the Zerg invests in a roach warren, but it shows they can't reach critical mass to fight off the hellion, marauder combo in the early game. At least that's my interpretation of it. I skimmed through the matches at faster x 3 ^_^ There was one match where Dimaga had a ton of minerals, I'll need to go back and watch that one because I was just thinking that maybe extra hatcheries might of helped.
I'm assuming you mean the game on metalopolis (only one I watched) between dimaga and jimpo. He forgets an overlord for a *REALLY* long time (probably thought he had started one).
Even so, he should have won that game I think.... Just felt like he overestimated the T army, then when he finally engaged... well, the T army at that point was stronger ;p
Not that I don't think the roach nerf was overdone, just that that particular game wasn't indicative of it.
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On May 18 2010 06:47 roemy wrote:
people still defending the 1 supply roach...?
and now demanding 3food marauders..?
roach - 145HP - 1 armor - 8dps
- nifty options such as stealth mobility (burrow) and medivac-like regeneration without the food for actual medivacs
marauder - 125HP - 1 armor - 6.67dps or 13.33 dps
- nifty option such as stim (-17% health though) and concussive shells
granted, shells need a nerf; despite the fact they "only" reduce movement speed - not dps - the -50% effect is way too high. and i'd support any reduction to its bonus damage. alas, the ridiculous range cannot be nerfed or banelings will lose effectiveness, should the marauders end up in front of the marines.
however! the roach cannot get "unnerfed".
but we can talk about 1.5 food for hydras, for example.
... and 1.5 food hellions once we've opened up that can of worms.
He didn't demand ANYTHING. He simply stated that if roaches are worth 2 food then marauders would be worth 3 food. Not like he was asking bliz to make rauders 3 food.
People just fail to realize that "100+ hp" equates to about nothing vs. marauders. And in that morrow vs. haypro game... yeah, apparently they fail against non-marauder composition too. Roaches, being the only armored unit for zerg, naturally seeming like the only counter to the mass tanks / thors... lost HORRIBLY. Now I don't think haypro should've attacked at that point in particular, but it wasn't even close. He lost like 40 units to morrow, who lost like 8. What else could he have made besides roaches for that composition? Hydras? No they would've failed harder being light, same w/ zerglings, and he had mutas which didn't help. blings? Not enough damage to those heavy armored units.
Roaches tanked by having NUMBERS, it had nothing to do with their high HP / armor, as in indicated by that match.
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I was just having some fun, rushing to Mothership and the Zerg flooded my based with lings. I snuck out a probe with my Mothership, went to the Zerg's base, built a Pylon to keep me in the game. He killed off everything in my base (my only Nexus) and I was revealed on the minimap to him. He knew I built a Pylon but my Mothership should cloak it, right? On the minimap and with unit placment the Zerg could see the Pylon in a cloaked state (as if he had detection). Needless to say, he killed it and game over. 
Is this a possible bug? It should show a Pylon normal on minimap and the Zerg shouldn't be able to see it without detection in his base, right? I watched the replay and he had no detection. Even the Zerg was confused as to why he could see it.
Is this the true intention of reveal?
I've done this before and have only noticed this change since the last patch...granted I've only done this through about 4 different patches.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ozzcuwzyz3t/MothershipRevealBug.SC2Replay
(watch from zerg perspective, only happens in the last minute or so)
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On May 18 2010 06:53 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2010 06:18 mousepad wrote:On May 16 2010 06:09 Lollersauce wrote:On May 16 2010 05:54 Koffiegast wrote:On May 16 2010 04:28 Lollersauce wrote:
Has anyone seen Dimaga vs jimpo?
Or Morrow vs Haypro?
I'm sorry but it's pretty obvious the roach nerf is overdone. Mind linking/telling where to see it? http://www.sc2win.com Keep in mind, its only a couple of the six games where the Zerg invests in a roach warren, but it shows they can't reach critical mass to fight off the hellion, marauder combo in the early game. At least that's my interpretation of it. I skimmed through the matches at faster x 3 ^_^ There was one match where Dimaga had a ton of minerals, I'll need to go back and watch that one because I was just thinking that maybe extra hatcheries might of helped. I'm assuming you mean the game on metalopolis (only one I watched) between dimaga and jimpo. He forgets an overlord for a *REALLY* long time (probably thought he had started one). Even so, he should have won that game I think.... Just felt like he overestimated the T army, then when he finally engaged... well, the T army at that point was stronger ;p Not that I don't think the roach nerf was overdone, just that that particular game wasn't indicative of it.
He also didn't put any drones on his 2nd extractor in his main base.
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On May 18 2010 06:54 Johoseph wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 06:47 roemy wrote:
people still defending the 1 supply roach...?
and now demanding 3food marauders..?
roach - 145HP - 1 armor - 8dps
- nifty options such as stealth mobility (burrow) and medivac-like regeneration without the food for actual medivacs
marauder - 125HP - 1 armor - 6.67dps or 13.33 dps
- nifty option such as stim (-17% health though) and concussive shells
granted, shells need a nerf; despite the fact they "only" reduce movement speed - not dps - the -50% effect is way too high. and i'd support any reduction to its bonus damage. alas, the ridiculous range cannot be nerfed or banelings will lose effectiveness, should the marauders end up in front of the marines.
however! the roach cannot get "unnerfed".
but we can talk about 1.5 food for hydras, for example.
... and 1.5 food hellions once we've opened up that can of worms. He didn't demand ANYTHING. He simply stated that if roaches are worth 2 food then marauders would be worth 3 food. Not like he was asking bliz to make rauders 3 food. People just fail to realize that "100+ hp" equates to about nothing vs. marauders. And in that morrow vs. haypro game... yeah, apparently they fail against non-marauder composition too. Roaches, being the only armored unit for zerg, naturally seeming like the only counter to the mass tanks / thors... lost HORRIBLY. Now I don't think haypro should've attacked at that point in particular, but it wasn't even close. He lost like 40 units to morrow, who lost like 8. What else could he have made besides roaches for that composition? Hydras? No they would've failed harder being light, same w/ zerglings, and he had mutas which didn't help. blings? Not enough damage to those heavy armored units. Roaches tanked by having NUMBERS, it had nothing to do with their high HP / armor, as in indicated by that match. errm... considering how you try to argument with the help of the armored and light attribute, i believe you might want to have another look at the damage system: against normal damage of thors and sieged tanks, it does not matter what attribute your units have. against unsieged tanks, both hydras and roaches die after 6 shots. 4 zerglings, however, require 12 shots total.
so HP do matter - in SC2 more than BW because there we had damage reductions up to 50%. now there's none... except for guardian shield... -.-
and even if this may sound contradictory: little HP can be good, too: a thor pumping 2x30 dmg into a 35HP zergling is a lot of waste, but that's just what's gonna happen as the auto-targetting system choses by range.
... which will also result in thors not shooting mutas if you send them in later.
this also brings us to tanks: lings aren't smaller than marines or zealots. only the targeted ling receives 100% damage and dies, the neighbouring gets hit by 50% which would require +2 vehicle upgrades for killing - provided the lings have no carapace whatsoever.
tank splash is evil, yes. since that patch which changed splash origin even more so, yes. but lots and lots of cheap slings still work against metal. sure, it's not a 1a2a3a-into-instant-flawless-victory but dismissing an effective counter because "everybody said melee units suck" or w/e deserves a loss.
also, "base" AA thor damage was reduced to a meager 8dps against non-light units with no native armor: dropping stuff with overlords into a pure metal army has become quite easy.
i know i know... sounds like theory crafting and that is considered bad..... but this is how you develop strategies. then you test them out and usually find out it's just as you imagined.
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On May 18 2010 07:08 VforVinDiesel wrote:I was just having some fun, rushing to Mothership and the Zerg flooded my based with lings. I snuck out a probe with my Mothership, went to the Zerg's base, built a Pylon to keep me in the game. He killed off everything in my base (my only Nexus) and I was revealed on the minimap to him. He knew I built a Pylon but my Mothership should cloak it, right? On the minimap and with unit placment the Zerg could see the Pylon in a cloaked state (as if he had detection). Needless to say, he killed it and game over. Is this a possible bug? It should show a Pylon normal on minimap and the Zerg shouldn't be able to see it without detection in his base, right? I watched the replay and he had no detection. Even the Zerg was confused as to why he could see it. Is this the true intention of reveal? I've done this before and have only noticed this change since the last patch...granted I've only done this through about 4 different patches. http://www.mediafire.com/file/ozzcuwzyz3t/MothershipRevealBug.SC2Replay(watch from zerg perspective, only happens in the last minute or so)
Buildings don't cloak
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On May 18 2010 08:56 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 07:08 VforVinDiesel wrote:I was just having some fun, rushing to Mothership and the Zerg flooded my based with lings. I snuck out a probe with my Mothership, went to the Zerg's base, built a Pylon to keep me in the game. He killed off everything in my base (my only Nexus) and I was revealed on the minimap to him. He knew I built a Pylon but my Mothership should cloak it, right? On the minimap and with unit placment the Zerg could see the Pylon in a cloaked state (as if he had detection). Needless to say, he killed it and game over. Is this a possible bug? It should show a Pylon normal on minimap and the Zerg shouldn't be able to see it without detection in his base, right? I watched the replay and he had no detection. Even the Zerg was confused as to why he could see it. Is this the true intention of reveal? I've done this before and have only noticed this change since the last patch...granted I've only done this through about 4 different patches. http://www.mediafire.com/file/ozzcuwzyz3t/MothershipRevealBug.SC2Replay(watch from zerg perspective, only happens in the last minute or so) Buildings don't cloak
Um. WUT? Under the Mothership they do.
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I've stopped using roaches and replaced them with speedlings.
The difference is incredible, the lings soak up damage MUCH better than the roaches ever did, they're also very effective against almost every unit.
They also work well with hydras economy wise, if you're planning a timing push and you don't have the cash to pull out a few more hydras before +1 and range is done then you can just spam out 10 - 20 lings.
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On May 18 2010 06:54 Johoseph wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 06:47 roemy wrote:
people still defending the 1 supply roach...?
and now demanding 3food marauders..?
roach - 145HP - 1 armor - 8dps
- nifty options such as stealth mobility (burrow) and medivac-like regeneration without the food for actual medivacs
marauder - 125HP - 1 armor - 6.67dps or 13.33 dps
- nifty option such as stim (-17% health though) and concussive shells
granted, shells need a nerf; despite the fact they "only" reduce movement speed - not dps - the -50% effect is way too high. and i'd support any reduction to its bonus damage. alas, the ridiculous range cannot be nerfed or banelings will lose effectiveness, should the marauders end up in front of the marines.
however! the roach cannot get "unnerfed".
but we can talk about 1.5 food for hydras, for example.
... and 1.5 food hellions once we've opened up that can of worms. He didn't demand ANYTHING. He simply stated that if roaches are worth 2 food then marauders would be worth 3 food. Not like he was asking bliz to make rauders 3 food. People just fail to realize that "100+ hp" equates to about nothing vs. marauders. And in that morrow vs. haypro game... yeah, apparently they fail against non-marauder composition too. Roaches, being the only armored unit for zerg, naturally seeming like the only counter to the mass tanks / thors... lost HORRIBLY. Now I don't think haypro should've attacked at that point in particular, but it wasn't even close. He lost like 40 units to morrow, who lost like 8. What else could he have made besides roaches for that composition? Hydras? No they would've failed harder being light, same w/ zerglings, and he had mutas which didn't help. blings? Not enough damage to those heavy armored units. Roaches tanked by having NUMBERS, it had nothing to do with their high HP / armor, as in indicated by that match.
Cool,so your saying the Zerg "tank" unit isn't as good a tank as lings anymore. What is it for? Definitely not as good as Hydra's at damage, not even close. Burrow move? You can see them move which I don't agree with personally. Yeah, you can see DTs and banshees move, but they move FAST, underground roaches are slow as fcuk.
And disregarding armor whatsoever, hydras and lings will die faster than the roaches against metal, assuming they are sieged.
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EPT
