I agree with brendan. Putting roaches on 2 supply is ok as long as they receive a buff down the road. Either give em back +2 armor or bring back their old regeneration rates (not necessarily the ability to regenerate above ground).

Concerning large armies: I believe bizz has to find a way to make ultras useful. That would reduce the number of roaches zerg players want to have. Ultralisk use is something i believe blizz tried to encourage the other way around by nerfing roaches by the way...

Koffiegast

Netherlands346 Posts

May 15 2010 12:11 GMT

#1524

On May 15 2010 14:28 BeyondCtrL wrote:

How do you have a fraction of the Roaches? Sure, now it takes like 20 seconds more to get the same amount of Roaches, but it's not half the amount of Roaches.

4 Gate is not standard play.

not half the amount of roaches?
So, when I have 200 max supply, I used to be able to get say 200 roaches (not accounting for other units or drones), now only 100.

Please feel to explain your point, because as it is now anything that Z has dies within mere seconds to the opponent and we all know that a dead unit deals no damage. And when units die as quickly as they do now, numbers count for nothing.

Scope

Sweden147 Posts

May 15 2010 12:37 GMT

#1525

they want us to build silly ultras to tank. :/

heishe

Germany2284 Posts

May 15 2010 12:48 GMT

#1526

On May 15 2010 14:25 condoriano wrote:

Show nested quote +

or another lesson would be get thors or more than 2 vikings. Machine just lucked out qxc didn't scan muta coming, he replenished everything in 5 seconds.

Show nested quote +

it could have been 44 roaches and it still would have failed, that's the problem. Attention is drawn to roach nerf but in reality it's siege splash buff that is killing zerg even more

Yeah, I noticed that too, pre Patch 12. High HP units like Roaches are supposed to counter tanks right? Yeah I thought so too... that's when I moved 60 roaches with burrowed movement below 6 tanks only to die instantly as soon as they popped up... even though they had 1 armor upgrade. rofl

On May 15 2010 15:21 poor newb wrote:
according to blizzard, zerglings "hard counter" tanks and thors and marauders, ez right?

yes, but all terran mechs obviously have a lot of hellions with them, which simply assrape zerglings.

Bull-Demon

United States582 Posts

May 15 2010 12:57 GMT

#1527

1.5 supply sounds the best. Just double the cost and make two roaches pop out of 1 egg. Using fewer larva might make one base play more practical also. I think doing something similar to lings would help too, those things just use way too many larva. 75 mins for three lings off one egg?

heishe

Germany2284 Posts

May 15 2010 13:04 GMT

#1528

how is that going to work? "75.5/200" ?

Latham

9582 Posts

May 15 2010 13:06 GMT

#1529

On May 15 2010 22:04 heishe wrote:
how is that going to work? "75.5/200" ?

Do you really think it will make a difference if you round it up or down? Either the game will show and know it as 75 or 76 food. Either way it's the best option.

heishe

Germany2284 Posts

May 15 2010 13:10 GMT

#1530

no it sucks, because it takes information away from the player. it's just bad design. all information about your army should be available at any time in the game. and "half-supplies" suck, because things like 199.5/200 can happen, where you can't build any other units.

and don't say it won't make a difference. in one of a million games it will, and then it will suck. it's just bad design.

Rah

United States973 Posts

May 15 2010 13:28 GMT

#1531

On May 15 2010 22:10 heishe wrote:
no it sucks, because it takes information away from the player. it's just bad design. all information about your army should be available at any time in the game. and "half-supplies" suck, because things like 199.5/200 can happen, where you can't build any other units.

and don't say it won't make a difference. in one of a million games it will, and then it will suck. it's just bad design.

Zerglings have been .5 supply since Starcraft Broodwar and it shows as 1 if you have an odd number of them iirc. I think it would mess up early game balance a bit though if 2 roaches popped from one egg, but might be worth trying internally.

Bull-Demon

United States582 Posts

May 15 2010 13:36 GMT

#1532

Just seems to me the main thing holding back zerg doing any kind of one base play is the lack of enough larva. You NEED a second hatch to be constantly producing and its pointless to place it in your base when you can move it 20 feet to your natural and spread your drones a bit.

I'm less worried about the roach change and more worried about how pigeonholed zerg strategies seem to be.

And the three lings for 75 was just an idea. 4 lings from one egg sounded too good

Wi)nD

Canada719 Posts

May 15 2010 16:37 GMT

#1533

i wold rather see a hp nerf, or resource nerf to the the raoch rather tahns this 2 supply nerf

dNo_O

United States233 Posts

May 15 2010 18:13 GMT

#1534

i'm starting to think the whole point of this patch is to make zerg's use ultralisks instead of mass roaches to tank damage instead because ultralisks are more supply efficient (hp for cost) now? ...i'm not sure because i've never bothered to build an ultralisk... guess i'll try it now =\

Wi)nD

Canada719 Posts

May 15 2010 19:23 GMT

#1535

On May 16 2010 03:13 dNo_O wrote:
i'm starting to think the whole point of this patch is to make zerg's use ultralisks instead of mass roaches to tank damage instead because ultralisks are more supply efficient (hp for cost) now? ...i'm not sure because i've never bothered to build an ultralisk... guess i'll try it now =\

utras die really fast vs a terran, i have never tired vs a toss tho, my guess would be samething, b/c he just need sot mass some immortal instead of pure coloussus

Lollersauce

United States357 Posts

May 15 2010 19:28 GMT

#1536

Has anyone seen Dimaga vs jimpo?
Or Morrow vs Haypro?
I'm sorry but it's pretty obvious the roach nerf is overdone.

heishe

Germany2284 Posts

May 15 2010 20:32 GMT

#1537

because roaches weren't much used in zvt anymore. the great roach/hydra ball was outdated as hell since it was easily countered with good army positioning and especially armor upgrades on the terran side. even pre patch 12 most players went ling/hydra/infestor/baneling.

Frobert

Canada113 Posts

May 15 2010 20:48 GMT

#1538

The 2 food roach nerf is the result of the ridiculous arms race between R/M/I that started at some cursed point in development. Reduce roach hp, restore some form of useful regeneration, reduce food to 1. Roach is still a counter to marines due to armor and range, while lowered roach hp means the marauder and immortal bonuses to armor don't need to be so inflated. Suddenly, ultras aren't being turned into glue before they can deal damage to M/M/M or immortals. The original idea for the roach was great - allow it to tank damage from smaller units like Zerglings and Marines through armor, while units with a higher damage per shot circumvented the armor. There is no need for this +dmg vs armor nonsense.

Koffiegast

Netherlands346 Posts

May 15 2010 20:54 GMT

#1539

On May 16 2010 04:28 Lollersauce wrote:
Has anyone seen Dimaga vs jimpo?
Or Morrow vs Haypro?
I'm sorry but it's pretty obvious the roach nerf is overdone.

Mind linking/telling where to see it?