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Patch 12 - Changes and Discussion - Page 75

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Skyze
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada2324 Posts
May 15 2010 03:27 GMT
#1481
just make roaches 100/25.. that is the essentially same as 2 food (since 4 roach + ovie is equal to 100/25).. but massable lategame still.

Right now its a fuckin bad joke being 2supply =/
Canada Gaming ~~ The-Feared
Ocedic
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1808 Posts
May 15 2010 03:29 GMT
#1482
On May 15 2010 11:22 Powda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 11:09 Mohdoo wrote:
Every time a race has a nerf, the race does horribly shitting for like 2 weeks. Just look at what happened to Toss after the Warpgate nerf and Terran after the Marauder nerf.

Remember when people freaked out and said they would quit Protoss after Warpgate nerfs? Remember when people freaked out and said they would quit Terran after Concussive shell being an upgrade?

You guys only make yourselves look silly by making such a big deal out of this. In the late game, it was a 145 hp unit that regenerated HP as quickly as Storm does damage, did 16 base damage, and moved fast enough. It was totally out of control for big games with lots of bases and high tech.


Umm, people did freak out and leave protoss and terran, then blizzard buffed both the races, did you forget that small detail?


Where are you getting these stats from? Stop making up generalities and citing them as facts; that's a logical fallacy.

Remember when spawning pool went from 150 minerals to 200 in BW? That's a more gigantic nerf than all the nerfs in SC2 thus far combined. Yet did people stop playing Zerg in BW? Play a change before complaining about it.
RatherGood
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada147 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-15 03:33:54
May 15 2010 03:32 GMT
#1483
Christ guys, learn to deal with the Roach change. Bigger changes than this have happened in beta, and players have to unlearn weeks of experience and experimentation. Remember how Marines went from 20 seconds to 25 second build time? That's arguably as substantial when you couple it with the Reactor almost being developed in production time.

The game's in beta. It's going to change. Roll with the punches. There's more than one way to play the game.
NicolBolas
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1388 Posts
May 15 2010 03:32 GMT
#1484
On May 15 2010 11:09 Mohdoo wrote:
Every time a race has a nerf, the race does horribly shitting for like 2 weeks. Just look at what happened to Toss after the Warpgate nerf and Terran after the Marauder nerf.

Remember when people freaked out and said they would quit Protoss after Warpgate nerfs? Remember when people freaked out and said they would quit Terran after Concussive shell being an upgrade?


In each and every one of those cases, Blizzard buffed something else in those 2 weeks. Concussive shells became less expensive, etc.

Roaches have received a lot of repeated and sustained nerfs. There's a pretty reasonable argument to say that Roaches at the beginning of Beta were out of control. But pre-Patch 12, they were just one part of the Zerg army.

You guys only make yourselves look silly by making such a big deal out of this. In the late game, it was a 145 hp unit that regenerated HP as quickly as Storm does damage, did 16 base damage, and moved fast enough. It was totally out of control for big games with lots of bases and high tech.


Again, Roaches weren't that pre-Patch 12. Before Patch 12, they didn't regen HP above ground (and below ground they're incredibly slow and can't attack, so who cares?).
So you know, cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come up and talk to you, it's great. But if you try to talk to them, it doesn't always go so well. - Shigeru Miyamoto
Johoseph
Profile Joined April 2010
United States49 Posts
May 15 2010 03:36 GMT
#1485
On May 15 2010 12:17 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 12:08 Truenappa wrote:
On May 15 2010 11:55 Johoseph wrote:
Roaches are basically shitty marauders now. Marauders get to stim, have twice the range, faster attack speed, concussive shell, and +dmg to armored which is essentially king in this game. And it costs them an extra 25 minerals (which probably equates to nothing with mules in play)... woooo.

Hadn't actually watched QXC vs. Slush until now. Even Day9 says they'll probably readjust roach to 2 armor, which would be a push in the right direction, although I kind of wonder how much it would help when they sit at 2 food now. Slush even had a nice unit comp in the 2nd game, mutas, lings, blings, AND a handful of roaches, still failed to... gues what? MMM. Nice.

If this next string of nerf nerf nerf buff buff buff on the roach doesn't work, they're gonna have to figure some kind of major change out for them, unit just ain't gellin right now, it's either too strong or too weak.


Zerg needs some sort of endgame option to deal with the Terran ball... I'm hoping for something "darkswarm" inspired. It also needs a early game buff or else Z will have to wait until lair to be able to move out to get map control.


Darkswarm inspired? Seen the Raven and Point Defense Drone?

Anyway, I think people are completely blowing the qxc vs, SLush game out of proportion. Yes it was a new patch and it could have bothered SLush, but then again when I look at the game it's quite evident that qxc was simply a better player when it came to control, positioning, upgrades, micro and macro (not saying SLush is bad, but qxc is a better player imo in that series).

The Roach nerf isn't some huge early game nerf, it doesn't cut your Roach numbers by 50%, it nerfs the ridiculous amounts of Roaches available late game (it was seriously way too much especially considering the late game upgrades available to them).


I'm not worried about the matches really. More worried about Day9 agreeing with the fact that the nerf went a little too far. Maybe he jumped the gun too, but usually he has a really good grasp on strategy and balance in the game.
condoriano
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States826 Posts
May 15 2010 03:44 GMT
#1486
On May 15 2010 12:26 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Out macroing doesn't just mean having more expansions. Anyway, can you give a link for the qxc vs. Machine replay? Couldn't find it on sc2win.


No idea where those are
Ridentem dicere verum quid vetat?
condoriano
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States826 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-15 04:24:15
May 15 2010 04:02 GMT
#1487
[image loading]

this should relate to patch 11 more than it does to patch 12 though
Ridentem dicere verum quid vetat?
Wi)nD
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada719 Posts
May 15 2010 04:13 GMT
#1488
On May 15 2010 12:17 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 12:08 Truenappa wrote:
On May 15 2010 11:55 Johoseph wrote:
Roaches are basically shitty marauders now. Marauders get to stim, have twice the range, faster attack speed, concussive shell, and +dmg to armored which is essentially king in this game. And it costs them an extra 25 minerals (which probably equates to nothing with mules in play)... woooo.

Hadn't actually watched QXC vs. Slush until now. Even Day9 says they'll probably readjust roach to 2 armor, which would be a push in the right direction, although I kind of wonder how much it would help when they sit at 2 food now. Slush even had a nice unit comp in the 2nd game, mutas, lings, blings, AND a handful of roaches, still failed to... gues what? MMM. Nice.

If this next string of nerf nerf nerf buff buff buff on the roach doesn't work, they're gonna have to figure some kind of major change out for them, unit just ain't gellin right now, it's either too strong or too weak.


Zerg needs some sort of endgame option to deal with the Terran ball... I'm hoping for something "darkswarm" inspired. It also needs a early game buff or else Z will have to wait until lair to be able to move out to get map control.


Darkswarm inspired? Seen the Raven and Point Defense Drone?

Anyway, I think people are completely blowing the qxc vs, SLush game out of proportion. Yes it was a new patch and it could have bothered SLush, but then again when I look at the game it's quite evident that qxc was simply a better player when it came to control, positioning, upgrades, micro and macro (not saying SLush is bad, but qxc is a better player imo in that series).

The Roach nerf isn't some huge early game nerf, it doesn't cut your Roach numbers by 50%, it nerfs the ridiculous amounts of Roaches available late game (it was seriously way too much especially considering the late game upgrades available to them).



it does affect early game, i thought at 1st that it does not but it really does

especialy int the zvp match were roach are the core unit, in zvt, they're kinda like an xtra boost but not core army (cept for slush it seems). in the early game when a toss goes for a standard 4 game timing attack ur # of roaches is a fraction of what it was b4, u dont nearly seem to have enough b/c of the +1 supply added to them. this causes for more overlords to be made, while still trying to get your roaches out slowing down the whole process its selft

sure there is got to be other possiblities that we havnt seen or tried yet but really, i bevlie this nerf was quite huge on zerg and should be adjusted

*also does anyone know why they got this nerf in teh 1st place? i thought everytime blizz was giving stats on a the races/matchups they were practialy even showing decent balance

**2nd also, for ppl talking about the warp gate nerf in previous patches, how is that relavent, wasnt every single player in teh beta bitching about that tec ecept for the one using it? the toss hated it, the zerg hated it and the terran most definatly hated it
FuryX
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia495 Posts
May 15 2010 04:18 GMT
#1489
On May 15 2010 12:32 RatherGood wrote:
Christ guys, learn to deal with the Roach change. Bigger changes than this have happened in beta, and players have to unlearn weeks of experience and experimentation. Remember how Marines went from 20 seconds to 25 second build time? That's arguably as substantial when you couple it with the Reactor almost being developed in production time.

The game's in beta. It's going to change. Roll with the punches. There's more than one way to play the game.


marine going from 20 to 25 .... ure comparing THAT to Roach 2 food?
roemy
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany432 Posts
May 15 2010 04:24 GMT
#1490
On May 15 2010 13:18 FuryX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 12:32 RatherGood wrote:
Christ guys, learn to deal with the Roach change. Bigger changes than this have happened in beta, and players have to unlearn weeks of experience and experimentation. Remember how Marines went from 20 seconds to 25 second build time? That's arguably as substantial when you couple it with the Reactor almost being developed in production time.

The game's in beta. It's going to change. Roll with the punches. There's more than one way to play the game.


marine going from 20 to 25 .... ure comparing THAT to Roach 2 food?

i can see why he did tbh...
where terrans once pumped 20 rines out of a barracks with a reactor, they'll have to spend some more cash on 3 barracks instead. pretty much covers the extra overlords required for early roaches.
rock is fine.. paper could need a buff, but scissors have to be nerfed
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
May 15 2010 04:31 GMT
#1491
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
guitarizt
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1492 Posts
May 15 2010 04:42 GMT
#1492
I think the tournaments coming out are showing that zerg's maxed army is too weak against the other races and they don't really have any other options. I wouldn't mind it if they just took roaches out of the game and tried something else. I remember when I first started playing the beta I didn't even make roaches for my first 10-20 games or so and even back then before any patches I didn't like them.
“There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.” - Hemingway
Madkipz
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway1643 Posts
May 15 2010 04:50 GMT
#1493
On May 15 2010 12:44 condoriano wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 12:26 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Out macroing doesn't just mean having more expansions. Anyway, can you give a link for the qxc vs. Machine replay? Couldn't find it on sc2win.


No idea where those are


Found them on the iccup livestream: http://www.livestream.com/iccup, insane long macro games, sick stuff.

havent seen any replay pack or smt similar to that yet
"Mudkip"
ghermination
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States2851 Posts
May 15 2010 05:14 GMT
#1494
So i just played some pvz against the new roaches.
I have to say, i just see smaller numbers of roaches in the beginning. Makes void ray openings completely useless now because they all go lings+spine crawlers -> hydras as soon as they see the stargate.
Collossi feel stronger now too, because they couldn't deal with the roach wall very well before, but now that it's smaller they just seem that much more effective.
I think this nerf was a good idea.
U Gotta Skate.
koppik
Profile Joined April 2010
United States676 Posts
May 15 2010 05:18 GMT
#1495
There's a replay for the metalopolis map: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=124671

Really, though, the lesson of the game is "don't needlessly lose eight broodlords to two vikings". (or, rather, position the broodlords over your hydra).
Wi)nD
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada719 Posts
May 15 2010 05:20 GMT
#1496
goto sc2win.com and watch morrow vs haypro, watch a mech army rape the zerg who has a total of 22 roach, 13 muta, and a number of lings, which counts for a maxed army

* he did have 72 drone xD

but u need that many to staturate ur bases
graphene
Profile Joined May 2010
Finland211 Posts
May 15 2010 05:24 GMT
#1497
i think roaches need to get regen back or something, sentries, void rays from toss and marauders seige tanksf from terran are far more imba than prepatch roach.
cloud computing is the future
condoriano
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States826 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-15 05:27:21
May 15 2010 05:25 GMT
#1498
On May 15 2010 14:18 koppik wrote:
There's a replay for the metalopolis map: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=124671

Really, though, the lesson of the game is "don't needlessly lose eight broodlords to two vikings". (or, rather, position the broodlords over your hydra).


or another lesson would be get thors or more than 2 vikings. Machine just lucked out qxc didn't scan muta coming, he replenished everything in 5 seconds.

On May 15 2010 14:20 Oodama wrote:
goto sc2win.com and watch morrow vs haypro, watch a mech army rape the zerg who has a total of 22 roach, 13 muta, and a number of lings, which counts for a maxed army

* he did have 72 drone xD

but u need that many to staturate ur bases


it could have been 44 roaches and it still would have failed, that's the problem. Attention is drawn to roach nerf but in reality it's siege splash buff that is killing zerg even more
Ridentem dicere verum quid vetat?
BeyondCtrL
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden642 Posts
May 15 2010 05:28 GMT
#1499
On May 15 2010 13:13 Oodama wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 12:17 BeyondCtrL wrote:
On May 15 2010 12:08 Truenappa wrote:
On May 15 2010 11:55 Johoseph wrote:
Roaches are basically shitty marauders now. Marauders get to stim, have twice the range, faster attack speed, concussive shell, and +dmg to armored which is essentially king in this game. And it costs them an extra 25 minerals (which probably equates to nothing with mules in play)... woooo.

Hadn't actually watched QXC vs. Slush until now. Even Day9 says they'll probably readjust roach to 2 armor, which would be a push in the right direction, although I kind of wonder how much it would help when they sit at 2 food now. Slush even had a nice unit comp in the 2nd game, mutas, lings, blings, AND a handful of roaches, still failed to... gues what? MMM. Nice.

If this next string of nerf nerf nerf buff buff buff on the roach doesn't work, they're gonna have to figure some kind of major change out for them, unit just ain't gellin right now, it's either too strong or too weak.


Zerg needs some sort of endgame option to deal with the Terran ball... I'm hoping for something "darkswarm" inspired. It also needs a early game buff or else Z will have to wait until lair to be able to move out to get map control.


Darkswarm inspired? Seen the Raven and Point Defense Drone?

Anyway, I think people are completely blowing the qxc vs, SLush game out of proportion. Yes it was a new patch and it could have bothered SLush, but then again when I look at the game it's quite evident that qxc was simply a better player when it came to control, positioning, upgrades, micro and macro (not saying SLush is bad, but qxc is a better player imo in that series).

The Roach nerf isn't some huge early game nerf, it doesn't cut your Roach numbers by 50%, it nerfs the ridiculous amounts of Roaches available late game (it was seriously way too much especially considering the late game upgrades available to them).



it does affect early game, i thought at 1st that it does not but it really does

especialy int the zvp match were roach are the core unit, in zvt, they're kinda like an xtra boost but not core army (cept for slush it seems). in the early game when a toss goes for a standard 4 game timing attack ur # of roaches is a fraction of what it was b4, u dont nearly seem to have enough b/c of the +1 supply added to them. this causes for more overlords to be made, while still trying to get your roaches out slowing down the whole process its selft

sure there is got to be other possiblities that we havnt seen or tried yet but really, i bevlie this nerf was quite huge on zerg and should be adjusted

*also does anyone know why they got this nerf in teh 1st place? i thought everytime blizz was giving stats on a the races/matchups they were practialy even showing decent balance

**2nd also, for ppl talking about the warp gate nerf in previous patches, how is that relavent, wasnt every single player in teh beta bitching about that tec ecept for the one using it? the toss hated it, the zerg hated it and the terran most definatly hated it


How do you have a fraction of the Roaches? Sure, now it takes like 20 seconds more to get the same amount of Roaches, but it's not half the amount of Roaches.

4 Gate is not standard play.
graphene
Profile Joined May 2010
Finland211 Posts
May 15 2010 05:39 GMT
#1500
it kinda is now dumbass,
cloud computing is the future
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