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On May 13 2010 23:44 kickinhead wrote:
Is it really Micro what we see with the Phoenix?
Yes. It is micro.
What's wrong with Units that are too hard to micro to the best of their possibilities for newbs?
Nothing. Which is why I favor giving that type of harder micro to tank, hellion, mutalisk, etc.
Why does a unit have to be designed in a way new players can control it perfectly as soon as they pick up the game?
So they can enjoy the game and have a task that they can master and enjoy. They can then start learning harder micro tasks. Remember Blizzards mantra "Easy to learn, Hard to master". There should be varing layers of micro difficulty. Additionally having differrent types of micro for different units makes the units feel and play uniquely.
There is really no disadvantage in making Units harder to control, unless you assume that a newb should be able to win against a pro. ^^'
I dont think there is a single person on the earth who thinks that. Furthermore leaving phoenix micro easy for new players would not make them automatically win against pros.
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I think there was a misunderstanding here:
Were you talking about the Phoenix-Micro from Patch11? Because this sort of micro isn't hard to master at all afaik. You just fly around without having to attack or hold-position or anything - they just shoot automatically while flying, at least that's what I've heard (I haven't played with them actually in Patch11).
I think the harder the micro, the better, IF you can also use the Units on a lower skilllevel, which was totally possible with the Micro in SC1 and that's how it should be in SC2.
Don't think about newbs when designing a game like that - they are just not influenced by that stuff at all IMHO. Or do you think newer players will say: "If I can't Micro Mutas perfectly on Day1 - I will not buy SC2!"? ^^'
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I strongly support what the OP is doing, and I really hope that Blizzard takes heed and re-implements advanced micro into SC2. Sure it will cause temporary balance issues, but any balance issue can be worked out over time, whereas no amount of time can make up for lost depth. I can understand not wanting to give Mutalisks moving shot since you no longer have the 12-unit selection limit, but I don't see that a good reason for Blizzard to remove advanced micro entirely from every single unit.
If something becomes overpowered from advanced micro, just nerf it. It's that simple. No need to throw the baby out with bathwater just because one or two units benefits too much from it.
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Sweden33719 Posts
The hellion I dunno about, but the tank one I reaallllllllly hope Blizz implements.
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On May 13 2010 23:48 Archerofaiur wrote:
"Easy to learn, Hard to master".
Ever hear of World of Warcraft?
Once Blizzard makes the game "easy" to learn, they never add the difficulty in fear of losing customers.
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On May 13 2010 23:53 Mania[K]al wrote:Ever hear of World of Warcraft? Once Blizzard makes the game "easy" to learn, they never add the difficulty in fear of losing customers.
Im not going to get into a debate on whether "Easy to learn, Hard to master" is a good game design philosophy for Blizzard. It has worked so far even if you dont like WOW.
And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game 
Also I would like someone to show me a true noob (just starting to play SC2) who can micro phoenix's perfectly :p
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On May 13 2010 23:53 Mania[K]al wrote:Ever hear of World of Warcraft? Once Blizzard makes the game "easy" to learn, they never add the difficulty in fear of losing customers.
World of Warcraft is a COMPLETELY different beast than an RTS.
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This is looking really good, nice work! I really hope this gets Blizzard's utmost attention.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On May 13 2010 23:53 Mania[K]al wrote:Ever hear of World of Warcraft? Once Blizzard makes the game "easy" to learn, they never add the difficulty in fear of losing customers.
Oh come one, WoW is actually (or at least used to be) a very good example of that philosophy. Anybody can play WoW and have fun, but if you are into hardcore raiding/pvp there is a lot of content for you as well.
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On May 13 2010 23:57 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 23:53 Mania[K]al wrote:On May 13 2010 23:48 Archerofaiur wrote:
"Easy to learn, Hard to master". Ever hear of World of Warcraft? Once Blizzard makes the game "easy" to learn, they never add the difficulty in fear of losing customers. World of Warcraft is a COMPLETELY different beast than an RTS.
I wasn't comparing WoW to SC. I was merely giving an example of how Blizzards mantra will ruin this game if continued and supported.
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Anyways I got the tank working the way you guys wanted. It follows targets but only shoots when the tank stops, the turret returns when there are no enemies around. :D Again no programming required = sweeet
Uploading should take a couple hours
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What sort of upload speed you got in Australia man? Come here and we'll get those vids up in minutes.
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God. I. Want. This needs to be put into the game.
For everyone saying "omg infinite air selection imba!":
Remember that if your entire army is selected to 1 hotkey in one place, you have NOTHING to stop a ground army. And every race has something to deal with stacked air (T= thors, P= storm, Z= fungal). So no, it wont be imba, but might actually allow blizz to keep lowering attack and hp values to make the game a little more back and forth.
For everyone saying "omg it looks so easy and isnt really micro!":
Mutalisk stacking and firing looks easy. It isnt. Even something like vulture micro which is pretty easy is much harder when you have to macro, divide your attention between 3 bases, and micro.
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On May 14 2010 00:30 Two_DoWn wrote:
Even something like vulture micro which is pretty easy is much harder when you have to macro, divide your attention between 3 bases, and micro.
and keep an eye on the minimap.
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On May 14 2010 00:26 LaLuSh wrote:
What sort of upload speed you got in Australia man? Come here and we'll get those vids up in minutes.
Well here in Australia we are primitive people. I have a direct connection to youtube using wet bits of string to transfer electrical currents which are transformed into binary data at the other end.
We also program using butterflies. They open their hands and let the delicate wings flap once. The disturbance ripples outwards, changing the flow of the eddie currents in the upper atmosphere. These cause momentary pockets of high-pressure air to form, which act as lenses that deflect incoming cosmic rays, focusing them to strike the drive platter and flip the desired bit.
<3 xkcd
I would love to go to Sweden though.
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On May 13 2010 23:56 Archerofaiur wrote:And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game
You took that the wrong way, what I meant with this is you shouldn't make a game easier to master because you're afraid that noobs won't play it.
I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread.
Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
The whole concept of an RTS is IMHO a rather demanding game, but the beauty of it is, you don't have to master it to have fun! So why make it easier, when the ppl you make it easier for won't really be affected by it, because they just play it on another level then ppl that would be affected by the possilibites of better controls over the unit and more demanding micro.
It's just that I don't get the how Blizzard justifys their decisions of making the game easier.
I totally get MBS and smartcasting, just because that's stuff that's basically standard in a modern RTS, but controls that are worse than in SC1 cannot simply be justified by saying "we did this to make the game newb-friendlier"...
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Could give spore crawlers AoE attack (maybe upgrade) if you needed some way for Zerg to fend off stacked mutas.
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On May 14 2010 00:36 Archerofaiur wrote:Could give spore crawlers AoE attack if you needed some way for Zerg to fend off stacked mutas.
Or just get stacked mutas for yourself.
FUCK YEAH OLD SCHOOL ZVZ
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On May 14 2010 00:35 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 23:56 Archerofaiur wrote:And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game You took that the wrong way, what I meant with this is you shouldn't make a game easier to master because you're afraid that noobs won't play it. I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread. Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
Give me a reason why having a graded system of micro difficulty (meaning easier micro tasks like phoenix attack move and harder micro tasks like muta micro) is a bad thing.
I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread.
Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
The whole idea is to have a gradual progression to draw fans in and encourage them to continually improve their game. Dont forget, everyone of us here was once a noob. Having different levels of micro difficulty is part of that.
On May 14 2010 00:38 lolaloc wrote:
Or just get stacked mutas for yourself.
True. But I kinda feel there should be ways to allow zerg to counter without going exactly mirror mirror.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090630041513/starcraft/images/thumb/6/67/SporeCrawler_SC2_DevGame2.jpg/180px-SporeCrawler_SC2_DevGame2.jpg)
