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On May 13 2010 22:40 Random() wrote:
At least the tank one HAS to be implemented. Why would the tanks even have turrets if they can't shoot like that?
I think it would be hugely beneficial if Blizzard implements all the stuff seen in this thread and just maybe tweak it a bit.
But it would be so awesome if we'd actually have micro like that in the game. Together with highground-advantage this was the one thing really bugging me about SC2.
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On May 13 2010 22:32 encryptedamf wrote:
But when that thread was up " Micro where art thou" it talked about the micro was a challenge to overcome. When you saw the pros doing it, it was amasing because it was hard to achieve, this is just kiting, which anyone can achieve that hellion micro in this thread lol, so really this is just catering to the whiners, just like everygame does now a days. IMO this isnt making the game better, is just making it easier.
It's alot more difficult having to kite and move back and forth with mutas/phoenixes than just sending them in to meet their destiny. This actually requires you to micro as opposed to just flying in and target firing one unit after the other.
With tanks this opens up a whole new dimension where you can actually move out and put pressure with early timing attacks. In brood war you had the FD rush where it was absolutely crucial you kept that 1 tank alive through microing. Dumbing down micro and dumbing down the game has caused all these technical rushes that rely on just a few units to go out of existence. These changes can actually bring them back and make the game more fast paced! These changes might allow for non stop back and forth action as opposed to just amassing troops and sending them on a timing attack (pretty much the state of the game right now).
Another positive: Hellions won't need their damage upgrade, and their +light bonus damage can be nerfed as well.
With more control I have a feeling alot of units could have their damage nerfed. I think it would make for a more dynamic game. Both for the players and spectators.
"That threads" author endorses this thread!
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On May 13 2010 22:44 potatomash3r wrote:
I think the tank micro is a bit too much, in sc1 at least the fire rate was much lower. And by doing that roaches would get owned so badly.
SC2 tank is more expensive right now and mech play overall is under-used. So there's nothing wrong in making it more fun to play and slightly stronger (but only if player concentrates all his free time on microing tanks). And it can be microied like that only when unsieged, making unsieged tanks slightly more effective than sieged so it follows Blizzard agenda of making game more dynamic.
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On May 13 2010 22:46 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 22:32 encryptedamf wrote:
But when that thread was up " Micro where art thou" it talked about the micro was a challenge to overcome. When you saw the pros doing it, it was amasing because it was hard to achieve, this is just kiting, which anyone can achieve that hellion micro in this thread lol, so really this is just catering to the whiners, just like everygame does now a days. IMO this isnt making the game better, is just making it easier.
It's alot more difficult having to kite and move back and forth with mutas/phoenixes than just sending them in to meet their destiny. This actually requires you to micro as opposed to just flying in and target firing one unit after the other. With tanks this opens up a whole new dimension where you can actually move out and put pressure with early timing attacks. In brood war you had the FD rush where it was absolutely crucial you kept that 1 tank alive through microing. Dumbing down micro and dumbing down the game has caused all these technical rushes that rely on just a few units to go out of existence. These changes can actually bring them back and make the game more fast paced! These changes might allow for non stop back and forth action as opposed to just amassing troops and sending them on a timing attack (pretty much the state of the game right now). Another positive: Hellions won't need their damage upgrade, and their +light bonus damage can be nerfed as well. With more control I have a feeling alot of units could have their damage nerfed. I think it would make for a more dynamic game. Both for the players and spectators. "That threads" author endorses this thread!
I think I have to change my underwear. ^^'
This is sooooo awesome!
How can we be sure Blizzard will see this thread and implement these changes?
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On May 13 2010 22:44 MorroW wrote:
but how do u make it turn back? will a simple stop click or attack move put the turret back to normal or what?
i liked the micro but i want it to act normal in some battlefields
It kinda bugs me too haha, I already have plans to fix this.
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On May 13 2010 22:49 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 22:46 LaLuSh wrote:On May 13 2010 22:32 encryptedamf wrote:
But when that thread was up " Micro where art thou" it talked about the micro was a challenge to overcome. When you saw the pros doing it, it was amasing because it was hard to achieve, this is just kiting, which anyone can achieve that hellion micro in this thread lol, so really this is just catering to the whiners, just like everygame does now a days. IMO this isnt making the game better, is just making it easier.
It's alot more difficult having to kite and move back and forth with mutas/phoenixes than just sending them in to meet their destiny. This actually requires you to micro as opposed to just flying in and target firing one unit after the other. With tanks this opens up a whole new dimension where you can actually move out and put pressure with early timing attacks. In brood war you had the FD rush where it was absolutely crucial you kept that 1 tank alive through microing. Dumbing down micro and dumbing down the game has caused all these technical rushes that rely on just a few units to go out of existence. These changes can actually bring them back and make the game more fast paced! These changes might allow for non stop back and forth action as opposed to just amassing troops and sending them on a timing attack (pretty much the state of the game right now). Another positive: Hellions won't need their damage upgrade, and their +light bonus damage can be nerfed as well. With more control I have a feeling alot of units could have their damage nerfed. I think it would make for a more dynamic game. Both for the players and spectators. "That threads" author endorses this thread! I think I have to change my underwear. ^^' This is sooooo awesome! How can we be sure Blizzard will see this thread and implement these changes?
Pretty much the same thing how they implemented the Phoenix "micro". They read TL.net. They will inevitably read this thread too.
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On May 13 2010 22:44 potatomash3r wrote:
I think the tank micro is a bit too much, in sc1 at least the fire rate was much lower. And by doing that roaches would get owned so badly.
Firing rate can easily be changed. I don't actually think sluggaslamoo intends the firing rates to be realistic or balanced, it just allows him to try stuff out easier.
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One suggestion. You might not want to call this the "SS project".
If you want im sure a mod could fix it.
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On May 13 2010 22:53 Archerofaiur wrote:
One suggestion. You might not want to call this the "SS project".
Yeah I feel really bad, just wasn't thinking, hopefully a mod can change this. In the meantime I already put in an apology 
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this is so freakin amazing. really. keep this up!
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On May 13 2010 22:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 22:53 Archerofaiur wrote:
One suggestion. You might not want to call this the "SS project". Yeah I feel really bad, just wasn't thinking, hopefully a mod can change this. In the meantime I already put in an apology
lol no need to apolgize. Project micro sounds better two.
One thing i really like is this idea of making different levels of micro. Meaning the lower level players can enjoy microing phoneix attack move while the upper level players have more traditional starcraft 1 muta micro.
As a suggestion for the tank shooting you could put in a special "Assign Attack" where the player targets a unit and then can issue move commands.
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On May 13 2010 22:57 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 22:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 13 2010 22:53 Archerofaiur wrote:
One suggestion. You might not want to call this the "SS project". Yeah I feel really bad, just wasn't thinking, hopefully a mod can change this. In the meantime I already put in an apology lol no need to apolgize. Project micro sounds better two. One thing i really like is this idea of making different levels of micro. Meaning the lower level players can enjoy microing phoneix attack move while the upper level players have more traditional starcraft 1 muta micro. As a suggestion for the tank shooting you could put in a special "Assign Attack" where the player targets a unit and then can issue move commands.
if he just manages to make the turret always look at the closest enemy then it will be exactly like sc1 where u could do this. move any direction u wanted while attacking (ofc u had to click attack to attack and then keep on moving but this is a great thing because autoattack r for mothership noobs xD)
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On May 13 2010 22:57 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 22:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 13 2010 22:53 Archerofaiur wrote:
One suggestion. You might not want to call this the "SS project". Yeah I feel really bad, just wasn't thinking, hopefully a mod can change this. In the meantime I already put in an apology lol no need to apolgize. Project micro sounds better two. One thing i really like is this idea of making different levels of micro. Meaning the lower level players can enjoy microing phoneix attack move while the upper level players have more traditional starcraft 1 muta micro. As a suggestion for the tank shooting you could put in a special "Assign Attack" where the player targets a unit and then can issue move commands.
Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that you issue attack once and then click move and the tank continues to shoot (phoenix style)? If so I'm not sure that's a good idea. Otherwise please elaborate
On May 13 2010 23:03 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 22:57 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 13 2010 22:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 13 2010 22:53 Archerofaiur wrote:
One suggestion. You might not want to call this the "SS project". Yeah I feel really bad, just wasn't thinking, hopefully a mod can change this. In the meantime I already put in an apology lol no need to apolgize. Project micro sounds better two. One thing i really like is this idea of making different levels of micro. Meaning the lower level players can enjoy microing phoneix attack move while the upper level players have more traditional starcraft 1 muta micro. As a suggestion for the tank shooting you could put in a special "Assign Attack" where the player targets a unit and then can issue move commands. if he just manages to make the turret always look at the closest enemy then it will be exactly like sc1 where u could do this. move any direction u wanted while attacking (ofc u had to click attack to attack and then keep on moving but this is a great thing because autoattack r for mothership noobs xD)
Thanks, ill see if this is possible.
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Not sure about the hellion one. Seems kinda like the current phoenix "micro." Like the tank one tho! It'd be very useful to be able to overcome hard counters through superior micro.
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On May 13 2010 23:23 Ryuu314 wrote:
Not sure about the hellion one. Seems kinda like the current phoenix "micro." Like the tank one tho! It'd be very useful to be able to overcome hard counters through superior micro.
I thought so as well, but apparently, while the current phoenix-micro only needs you to move and they attack automatically without ever stopping, the hellion-micro actually needs you to stop with the hold-position-button and then move again - at least that's my understanding of it.
Maybe just change sth about the ability of the Hellion to shoot in any direction - seems a bit too powerful for my taste. You could also just make the attack weaker though... Most important thing is that it's micro-intensive but allows you to use them more effectively.
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just wanted to drop in and say that even if this isn't implemented (I'm on the fence about stuff like this) its really amazing work. Nice effort sluggaslamoo
I can't wait to see mini-movies using this engine since people can modify how a unit behaves to make it do specific things for them like you have shown
edited for early morning dyslexia
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I wouldn't really mind slightly better hellion and tank control, like MorroW said you can do both of those moves now but it could be made a lot better. The way you micro tanks/hellions now is as a mechanic fine, I just think that the acceleration speed of both units need to be increased a tad to make it work better since now you can move and shoot with the hellion but it takes too long for it to move away again.
I really can't see any way muta stacking is going back into the game though, or even a fast muta move shot. It just seems to completely unravel so many other balance issues. First of all with unlimited control group size you can just fly in and oneshot a command center and fly out before being hit. It also seems that if you give move shot like that to mutalisks then you need to increase marine range, and if you increase marine range then that affects a whole bunch of other balance issues.
edit: For anyone who don't see just how much bw'esque style muta control will affect game balance you really need to play more TvP and try to defend against voidrays with marines. Take that and make it ten times more annoying and you have muta move shot.
Not going to argue over what should or shouldn't be good for the game, I'll just focus on what I think is realistic to ask for and I believe that it is possible that blizzard will polish control for certain units if the community demands it, such as making it a bit more precise to kite with a tank. But any more radical changes I don't see happening.
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On May 13 2010 23:05 sluggaslamoo wrote:Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that you issue attack once and then click move and the tank continues to shoot (phoenix style)? If so I'm not sure that's a good idea. Otherwise please elaborate
I was thinking more along the lines of a attack button that does not include a move button. So if I wanted two move a tank line through the enemy I could issue a move command and then seperatly issue a series of attack commands to focus fire the enemy.
Can I ask you why you favor changing the current Phoenix mechanics? What is wrong with having one micro ability that low to mid level players can perform?
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On May 13 2010 23:37 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 23:05 sluggaslamoo wrote:Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that you issue attack once and then click move and the tank continues to shoot (phoenix style)? If so I'm not sure that's a good idea. Otherwise please elaborate I was thinking more along the lines of a attack button that does not include a move button. So if I wanted two move a tank line through the enemy I could issue a move command and then seperatly issue a series of attack commands to focus fire the enemy. Can I ask you why you favor changing the current Phoenix mechanics? What is wrong with having one micro ability that low to mid level players can perform?
Is it really Micro what we see with the Phoenix? I think it's way too easy and the possibilities for better players to have better micro are far to little.
What's wrong with Units that are too hard to micro to the best of their possibilities for newbs? Why does a unit have to be designed in a way new players can control it perfectly as soon as they pick up the game?
There is really no disadvantage in making Units harder to control, unless you assume that a newb should be able to play as good as a pro concerning Unit-control. ^^'
Muta-Micro, Wraith-Micro, Reaver-Drops, Vulture-Micro was very hard in SC1, but that made the game not less enjoyable for newer players at all, did it?
I think that there are ppl out there that wan't to be pro's in SC2 without having to do anything for it and Blizzard tries to motivate those ppl to try out the game with advertising with easier to use controls and stuff - bottom line is all players start at the same level, you get no advantage as a newb if they make a game easier, because there is still MUCH room to improve. The only thing you accomplish by making Units less micro-intensive is lowering the possibilities for skill-differences and playstyles to evolve on the highest level, which will not concern newbs AT ALL...
It's just a wrong train of thought of Blizzard IMHO...
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EPT
