PLEASE NOTE: This does not contain the same hellion micro as the map does. Also there may be some random changes I've made that I simply cannot remember right now.
^ Make sure to set your preferences to test the map at "faster" speed (In SC2 Editor, go File -> Preferences, Game Speed has a drop down box, set it to Faster.)
Your vote: Which is your favorite adjustment so far?
(Vote): Mutalisk v0.2 (Vote): Hellion v0.1 (Vote): Phoenix v0.1 (Vote): Phoenix v0.2 (Vote): Tank v0.1 (Vote): Tank v0.2
VODs are in the spoilers below.
Just to clear up some confusion, especially considering the Hellion. All of these units will stop attacking on move, unlike patch 11 phoenix, an order has to be issued so that the unit will actually attack, you then have to click move immediately after. (Just look at the commands in the bottom-right corner while watching the vod )
Matchup: SCVs (lol?) Difficulty: Easy Methodology: 1. Head directly towards SCVs with patrol or attack-move 2. As soon as the animation starts change direction 3. Repeat from step 1
Matchup: Zerglings Difficulty: A 2 year old could do this Methodology: Click attack move anywhere followed by move Click attack-move every time you feel like burning a million lings
Matchup: Mutalisks Difficulty: Medium Methodology: 1. Head directly towards mutalisks 2. Attack the closest mutalisk (single unit attack) 3. Turn 180 degrees as soon as the animation starts 4. Repeat from step 1
Notes: - Attack move breaks up your stack - Too much rotation can break up your stack
Matchup: Immortal Difficulty: Very Hard Methodology: Reverse your turret Move up to immortal and turn around Spam move away from the immortal Press hold-position every time you want to shoot
The new broodlord, aka flying reaver. Each broodling requires 10 minerals, press W to train them, you can only queue one at a time but you can stack and fire up to 3 at a time. Broodlings fire at the point not the unit, so you can dodge them.
FAQ How did you do this? Just a small amount of tweaks to the stats of units/weapons/turrets/etc using Galaxy Editor, no coding or event triggering is used.
I wanted to keep the process as simple and as easy as possible, the less changes the better. The simpler it is, the easier it is for Blizzard to make the change.
What do you aim to achieve by doing this? Hopefully this will serve as a confidence booster for those who thought that micro would be non-existent in SC2.
I aim to break the communication barrier between SC gamers and Blizzard. After seeing the patch 11 phoenix I realised that maybe we could get the message across better.
Blizzard won't listen to you, this isn't BW I know it isn't BW but this isn't why I am doing this. I like challenges and this was one of them, it was something I did for fun. It doesn't bother me whether or not this gets implemented in SC2 or not (although it would be pretty cool if it did).
the SS looks kinda bad :p but man those vids look sweet !! that stacking sure would make thor happy :DDD i wonder if blizzard will check it out and put unbugged in sc2 -_-
Ehm maybe it´s just the fact that i am from Germany but you should consider not calling it the SS project micro. But ohterwise realy cool sutff you did there^^
Awesome stuff, dude! Hellion and Tank should be implemented by Blizzard asap without second thoughts, imho. Especially hellion, cause current in-game version is just frustrating crap.
I also found out couple days ago that's not "attacking after decelerating" that ruins micro as some of us thought. It's just for some only for Blizzard known reason they put arbitrary pre-attack delay into every fucking single unit except, like, zealot and mutalisk? "Point Damage" it's called or something like that. I bet you removed that from the units you modified, sluggaslamoo, right? Is there any sane reason for thing to be in the game, wtf.
On May 13 2010 21:10 sluggaslamoo wrote: I wanted to keep the process as simple and as easy as possible, the less changes the better. The simpler it is, the easier it is for Blizzard to make the change.
lol.. What does this even mean? You think they are that stupid that they cant make units stack.. They do things for a reason.
Or people saying "thats not what we meant by moving shot..lol blizzard is stupid".. What makes you think they have to exactly replicate what some guy says on some forum.. Do you think they dont know how their own game works? They just got an idea from that and did something different..
On May 13 2010 21:40 InRaged wrote: Awesome stuff, dude! Hellion and Tank should be implemented by Blizzard asap without second thoughts, imho. Especially hellion, cause current in-game version is just frustrating crap.
I also found out couple days ago that's not "attacking after decelerating" that ruins micro as some of us thought. It's just for some only for Blizzard known reason they put arbitrary pre-attack delay into every fucking single unit except, like, zealot and mutalisk? "Point Damage" it's called or something like that. I bet you removed that from the units you modified, sluggaslamoo, right? Is there any sane reason for thing to be in the game, wtf.
I changed every variable to 0 with the word delay in it or related to delay, and i think mucked around with other random things like fidget to see if it made any difference. The biggest problem is lack of documentation right now.
Its actually some flag changes and borrowing physics from units that naturally have micro capability (typically air) but for some reason have delays or flags set which prevent this.
For example for muta micro you allow"attacking while moving" but then also having "only fire while attacking" does most of the work. Then you just have to get rid of delays and tweak other things.
Other units are harder, for example the hellion I don't think natively supports attacking while moving. Even if you set the flag, it only works mothership/patch11 phoenix style, which is not what we want. So I duplicated the mutalisk and replaced all the variables and it worked perfectly. This is the same for the tank, but I figured hold-position is good enough for the tank.
On May 13 2010 21:10 sluggaslamoo wrote: I wanted to keep the process as simple and as easy as possible, the less changes the better. The simpler it is, the easier it is for Blizzard to make the change.
lol.. What does this even mean? You think they are that stupid that they cant make units stack.. They do things for a reason.
Or people saying "thats not what we meant by moving shot..lol blizzard is stupid".. What makes you think they have to exactly replicate what some guy says on some forum.. Do you think they dont know how their own game works? They just got an idea from that and did something different..
after reading some of their change explanations in patch 11 i came to the conclusion they might not know what we are talking about. ps. sluggaslamoo phoenix change looks far superior to blizzard one
Great work man. This is how it should be done. Microing hellion is very smooth and the other units also look nice. Hellion is such a lame unit right now, like a lame ground version of valkyrie.
It would be nice if you tweaked Carriers so they can stack together and be a viable option in the game, because right now they are crap also.
Blizzard what were you thinking (drinking) when coding the game? Come on! You can do better!
I think the air units should spread out very quickly when not being given commands as a balancing factor and so that their power is truly proportional to player skill and attention. I'm sure you can do this/I'm sure blizz can do this.
On May 13 2010 21:56 gogogadgetflow wrote: I think the air units should spread out very quickly when not being given commands as a balancing factor and so that their power is truly proportional to player skill and attention. I'm sure you can do this/I'm sure blizz can do this.
Just adjust the collision values. I think the value is set to 0 in those videos.
Nice job, though the hellions seem overpowered - I would only let them be able to attack when they are facing the enemy Units in a straight line, same thing with Mutas and Phoenix, so you have to actually micro them.
Also, it's important that the Units slow down if you don't keep them moving all the time, so just giving them an incredibly high acceleration will make it look like Mutamicro in SC1, though it won't be as micro-intensive.
On May 13 2010 22:02 kickinhead wrote: Nice job, though the hellions seem overpowered - I would only let them be able to attack when they are facing the enemy Units in a straight line, same thing with Mutas and Phoenix, so you have to actually micro them.
Also, it's important that the Units slow down if you don't keep them moving all the time, so just giving them an incredibly high acceleration will make it look like Mutamicro in SC1, though it won't be as micro-intensive.
Yeah I always thought the hellion micro was a little too easy, and I can remove the turret, but I don't want it to be like vultures either.
Acceleration is default, or at roughly the same ratio as default (if I increased the speed). The mutas are default speed and acceleration. Phoenix is faster speed, and faster acceleration but to a lesser extent (maybe this should be lowered). Hellion has slower acceleration and default speed, tank is default as well.
Hellion at default has maxed out acceleration, I reduced this so that it has to accelerate a little bit.
All the videos show particular points where I don't click and they slow down to shoot, but if you turn the unit 180 degrees it will flip and turn the other way at the same speed.
Although maybe its a sign that the acceleration should be lowered again
Nice work, will be awesome in an ums or something but I'm afraid as for most of that stuff it is not going to get implemented into the game. It is not because blizzard does not know how to do those things, or because they just don't want us to have those features but rather that if you add those mechanics the entire game balance needs to be reworked, several of those features actually significantly changes the unit balance.
On May 13 2010 22:11 ymirheim wrote: Nice work, will be awesome in an ums or something but I'm afraid as for most of that stuff it is not going to get implemented into the game. It is not because blizzard does not know how to do those things, or because they just don't want us to have those features but rather that if you add those mechanics the entire game balance needs to be reworked, several of those features actually significantly changes the unit balance.
Blizzard has plenty of time to balance the game around these "new dynamic units". It's better than balancing the game around the current versions.
Wow this is great. Id like to keep Phoenix with the attack move (backwards shooting ftw) but other than that everything looks incredible. I would be especially excited about unique hellion and tank micro.
Dude fantastic work! Someone with a bnet forums account should post this on there so they have a higher chance of seeing it. Amazing stuff (maybe itll be used for the real TL Pro Mod if Blizz passes)
The tank's the most amazingly well done one - the turret turns slowly, which allows the tank to attack while retreating without adding a delay to the attack. it makes sense graphically, and adds an additional depth of micro. Currently it feels like the turret has to turn around once everytime you kite the tank.
Mutalisks would be imbalanced if they stacked because there is no limit on how many units you can have in 1 control group.
Hellions would be imbalanced because they would deal just too many damage without letting zerg to get a surround. They would just wreak havoc vs light unit if they didn't stopped to shoot.
I cant say much against pheonixes, their current state in the game (after last patch) is a bit silly, so i guess they are better in your build.
Tanks would be imbalanced vs things like roaches if they could shoot and move like that.
So yea... while it might seem cool it doesn't help the game out imo ;/
On May 13 2010 22:25 Skvid wrote: Mutalisks would be imbalanced if they stacked because there is no limit on how many units you can have in 1 control group.
Thors/Archons... Still imba? Blizzard will balance the game.
On May 13 2010 22:25 Skvid wrote: Hellions would be imbalanced because they would deal just too many damage without letting zerg to get a surround. They would just wreak havoc vs light unit if they didn't stopped to shoot.
Get static defense... still imba? Blizzard will balance the game.
On May 13 2010 22:25 Skvid wrote: Tanks would be imbalanced vs things like roaches if they could shoot and move like that.
I doubt players can keep kiting like that the entire game... still imba? Blizzard will balance the game.
On May 13 2010 22:26 encryptedamf wrote: haha if anything this makes micro even easier rofl!!.. QUITING crying kids
Well, easier orbwalking/kiting allows more fluid gameplay. This allows micro to be worth the APM accorded to it by the controlling player.
Changing attack animations is the best way to allow maximisation of a unit's potential - if you leave it alone in game, the balance stays the same. If you put the effort into microing it, you are rewarded with a few extra kills, barely. That's what makes micro worth it. Currently micro in SCII won't do much.
On May 13 2010 22:25 Skvid wrote: Mutalisks would be imbalanced if they stacked because there is no limit on how many units you can have in 1 control group.
Hellions would be imbalanced because they would deal just too many damage without letting zerg to get a surround. They would just wreak havoc vs light unit if they didn't stopped to shoot.
I cant say much against pheonixes, their current state in the game (after last patch) is a bit silly, so i guess they are better in your build.
Tanks would be imbalanced vs things like roaches if they could shoot and move like that.
So yea... while it might seem cool it doesn't help the game out imo ;/
Let me address that one point at a time
- If you group your air units in a stack, a few AA splash damage units, such as thors, can one shot the stack. It just raises the stakes effectively.
- Vultures weren't imbalanced in SC1, I don't know how you're getting that they'd be imbalanced in 2
- Same pros and cons apply to phoenixes as to mutalisks
- Uh oh roaches don't hard counter something. In all seriousness though, it just adds another level, you can get a shot off if the tank comes in range but you can't just chase it down. In other words, using a tank like that to harass vs roaches doesn't REQUIRE suiciding the tank as it currently does
On May 13 2010 22:29 potatomash3r wrote: Stacked units? That wont work because you can stack 48 mutas and just snipe a command center.
LOL? just look like 1 post above you..... -.-°
stacking Units with unlimited control-groups won't be a problem AT ALL - I don't know why you'd think otherwise... You have splash-dmg for sth, right?
At least, splash-DMg against Air would actually do anything, not like now, where you spread out your Mutas anyways and splash only hit's like 1-2 additional ones... With stacked Mutas, you'd hit EVERY SINGLE UNIT with one attack - how's that for a counter to staced-mutas?
But when that thread was up " Micro where art thou" it talked about the micro was a challenge to overcome. When you saw the pros doing it, it was amasing because it was hard to achieve, this is just kiting, which anyone can achieve that hellion micro in this thread lol, so really this is just catering to the whiners, just like everygame does now a days. IMO this isnt making the game better, is just making it easier.
On May 13 2010 22:32 encryptedamf wrote: But when that thread was up " Micro where art thou" it talked about the micro was a challenge to overcome. When you saw the pros doing it, it was amasing because it was hard to achieve, this is just kiting, which anyone can achieve that hellion micro in this thread lol, so really this is just catering to the whiners, just like everygame does now a days. IMO this isnt making the game better, is just making it easier.
On May 13 2010 22:32 encryptedamf wrote: But when that thread was up " Micro where art thou" it talked about the micro was a challenge to overcome. When you saw the pros doing it, it was amasing because it was hard to achieve, this is just kiting, which anyone can achieve that hellion micro in this thread lol, so really this is just catering to the whiners, just like everygame does now a days. IMO this isnt making the game better, is just making it easier.
With all due respect, I don't think you make any sense. If this requires more APM to do, then it makes the game harder. It's gonna be exponentially harder in a real game when multitasking is required. I have no idea how you're drawing your conclusions really
On May 13 2010 22:32 encryptedamf wrote: But when that thread was up " Micro where art thou" it talked about the micro was a challenge to overcome. When you saw the pros doing it, it was amasing because it was hard to achieve, this is just kiting, which anyone can achieve that hellion micro in this thread lol, so really this is just catering to the whiners, just like everygame does now a days. IMO this isnt making the game better, is just making it easier.
How is it easier?
I really want to know how difficult it is too, because the two most important things about this kind of micro are:
- It has to be effective - It has to be micro-intensive
Just with the VoD's, I can't really see how difficult it is, though I think it looks pretty damn good so far!
It's amazing that sm1 that isn't an SC1-Pro or Blizzard developer actually understands what has to be done with SC1 - Blizzard just needs guys like you! At least, we can all look forward to a promod or sth like that, if blizz really F's up SC2.
On May 13 2010 22:32 encryptedamf wrote: But when that thread was up " Micro where art thou" it talked about the micro was a challenge to overcome. When you saw the pros doing it, it was amasing because it was hard to achieve, this is just kiting, which anyone can achieve that hellion micro in this thread lol, so really this is just catering to the whiners, just like everygame does now a days. IMO this isnt making the game better, is just making it easier.
It was amazing because pros had to MULTITASK while microing. That's why it's hard. Macro is easy in BW, you can perfect it with practice. Micro is easy in BW, you can perfect it with practice. When you put them together that's when it gets really Difficult.
On May 13 2010 22:32 encryptedamf wrote: But when that thread was up " Micro where art thou" it talked about the micro was a challenge to overcome. When you saw the pros doing it, it was amasing because it was hard to achieve, this is just kiting, which anyone can achieve that hellion micro in this thread lol, so really this is just catering to the whiners, just like everygame does now a days. IMO this isnt making the game better, is just making it easier.
How is it easier?
I really want to know how difficult it is too, because the two most important things about this kind of micro are:
- It has to be effective - It has to be micro-intensive
After trying out the mutalisk map, the collision values just needs adjustment so that the stacking is NOT effortless.
For the tank thing, it's just identical to SC1. You press Hold Position at the correct timing. Same for the hellions. Just identical to SC1 vultures.
i really liked that tank micro. u can do like that now but u basically just removed the cast time of the attack ye?
i disliked the hellion micro alot because that is easier than it is in the current patch. u can just attack without thinking of the timing
the muta stack and phonix stack i dont really like because they turn around 180 degrees instantly. they attack as soon as something in range and all and all its about 5 times easier than real muta micro
yes it will make more APM, I understand that, and then yes it will make it harder overall see.blue, but the micro required to do this is not hard to acomplish because all it is, is kiting. And when i was talking about the older thread, everyone in there was talking about the micro in BW was harder to pull off, making it so when they were multitasking, marcoing n shit, they were also doing some intense micro that alot of people could do successfully. yes your point is right, but anyone that cant pull off then APM and full of the easy micro aswell
if stacking would be problem you can always increase collision number but the whole idea of moving shot is solved so much better than this what blizzard gave us in patch 11
On May 13 2010 22:40 MorroW wrote: i really liked that tank micro. u can do like that now but u basically just removed the cast time of the attack ye?
The problem was the turret would return every time you move the tank. In this one the turret stays, thus removing most of the delay. After that, you go find some variables and kill more delay.
On May 13 2010 22:40 MorroW wrote: i really liked that tank micro. u can do like that now but u basically just removed the cast time of the attack ye?
The problem was the turret would return every time you move the tank. In this one the turret stays, thus removing most of the delay. After that, you go find some variables and kill more delay.
but how do u make it turn back? will a simple stop click or attack move put the turret back to normal or what? i liked the micro but i want it to act normal in some battlefields
cant u just make so the tank autolooks at the closest target like it was in sc1?
if tanks could do this u would have to add more cooldown to them and add at least a small cast time because if they can move while attack without any loss its just lol. even vultures when using patrol micro lost some speed and the tank had to stand still for a short while
On May 13 2010 22:40 Random() wrote: At least the tank one HAS to be implemented. Why would the tanks even have turrets if they can't shoot like that?
I think it would be hugely beneficial if Blizzard implements all the stuff seen in this thread and just maybe tweak it a bit.
But it would be so awesome if we'd actually have micro like that in the game. Together with highground-advantage this was the one thing really bugging me about SC2.
On May 13 2010 22:32 encryptedamf wrote: But when that thread was up " Micro where art thou" it talked about the micro was a challenge to overcome. When you saw the pros doing it, it was amasing because it was hard to achieve, this is just kiting, which anyone can achieve that hellion micro in this thread lol, so really this is just catering to the whiners, just like everygame does now a days. IMO this isnt making the game better, is just making it easier.
It's alot more difficult having to kite and move back and forth with mutas/phoenixes than just sending them in to meet their destiny. This actually requires you to micro as opposed to just flying in and target firing one unit after the other.
With tanks this opens up a whole new dimension where you can actually move out and put pressure with early timing attacks. In brood war you had the FD rush where it was absolutely crucial you kept that 1 tank alive through microing. Dumbing down micro and dumbing down the game has caused all these technical rushes that rely on just a few units to go out of existence. These changes can actually bring them back and make the game more fast paced! These changes might allow for non stop back and forth action as opposed to just amassing troops and sending them on a timing attack (pretty much the state of the game right now).
Another positive: Hellions won't need their damage upgrade, and their +light bonus damage can be nerfed as well.
With more control I have a feeling alot of units could have their damage nerfed. I think it would make for a more dynamic game. Both for the players and spectators.
On May 13 2010 22:44 potatomash3r wrote: I think the tank micro is a bit too much, in sc1 at least the fire rate was much lower. And by doing that roaches would get owned so badly.
SC2 tank is more expensive right now and mech play overall is under-used. So there's nothing wrong in making it more fun to play and slightly stronger (but only if player concentrates all his free time on microing tanks). And it can be microied like that only when unsieged, making unsieged tanks slightly more effective than sieged so it follows Blizzard agenda of making game more dynamic.
On May 13 2010 22:32 encryptedamf wrote: But when that thread was up " Micro where art thou" it talked about the micro was a challenge to overcome. When you saw the pros doing it, it was amasing because it was hard to achieve, this is just kiting, which anyone can achieve that hellion micro in this thread lol, so really this is just catering to the whiners, just like everygame does now a days. IMO this isnt making the game better, is just making it easier.
It's alot more difficult having to kite and move back and forth with mutas/phoenixes than just sending them in to meet their destiny. This actually requires you to micro as opposed to just flying in and target firing one unit after the other.
With tanks this opens up a whole new dimension where you can actually move out and put pressure with early timing attacks. In brood war you had the FD rush where it was absolutely crucial you kept that 1 tank alive through microing. Dumbing down micro and dumbing down the game has caused all these technical rushes that rely on just a few units to go out of existence. These changes can actually bring them back and make the game more fast paced! These changes might allow for non stop back and forth action as opposed to just amassing troops and sending them on a timing attack (pretty much the state of the game right now).
Another positive: Hellions won't need their damage upgrade, and their +light bonus damage can be nerfed as well.
With more control I have a feeling alot of units could have their damage nerfed. I think it would make for a more dynamic game. Both for the players and spectators.
"That threads" author endorses this thread!
I think I have to change my underwear. ^^'
This is sooooo awesome!
How can we be sure Blizzard will see this thread and implement these changes?
On May 13 2010 22:44 MorroW wrote: but how do u make it turn back? will a simple stop click or attack move put the turret back to normal or what? i liked the micro but i want it to act normal in some battlefields
It kinda bugs me too haha, I already have plans to fix this.
On May 13 2010 22:32 encryptedamf wrote: But when that thread was up " Micro where art thou" it talked about the micro was a challenge to overcome. When you saw the pros doing it, it was amasing because it was hard to achieve, this is just kiting, which anyone can achieve that hellion micro in this thread lol, so really this is just catering to the whiners, just like everygame does now a days. IMO this isnt making the game better, is just making it easier.
It's alot more difficult having to kite and move back and forth with mutas/phoenixes than just sending them in to meet their destiny. This actually requires you to micro as opposed to just flying in and target firing one unit after the other.
With tanks this opens up a whole new dimension where you can actually move out and put pressure with early timing attacks. In brood war you had the FD rush where it was absolutely crucial you kept that 1 tank alive through microing. Dumbing down micro and dumbing down the game has caused all these technical rushes that rely on just a few units to go out of existence. These changes can actually bring them back and make the game more fast paced! These changes might allow for non stop back and forth action as opposed to just amassing troops and sending them on a timing attack (pretty much the state of the game right now).
Another positive: Hellions won't need their damage upgrade, and their +light bonus damage can be nerfed as well.
With more control I have a feeling alot of units could have their damage nerfed. I think it would make for a more dynamic game. Both for the players and spectators.
"That threads" author endorses this thread!
I think I have to change my underwear. ^^'
This is sooooo awesome!
How can we be sure Blizzard will see this thread and implement these changes?
Pretty much the same thing how they implemented the Phoenix "micro". They read TL.net. They will inevitably read this thread too.
On May 13 2010 22:44 potatomash3r wrote: I think the tank micro is a bit too much, in sc1 at least the fire rate was much lower. And by doing that roaches would get owned so badly.
Firing rate can easily be changed. I don't actually think sluggaslamoo intends the firing rates to be realistic or balanced, it just allows him to try stuff out easier.
On May 13 2010 22:53 Archerofaiur wrote: One suggestion. You might not want to call this the "SS project".
Yeah I feel really bad, just wasn't thinking, hopefully a mod can change this. In the meantime I already put in an apology
lol no need to apolgize. Project micro sounds better two.
One thing i really like is this idea of making different levels of micro. Meaning the lower level players can enjoy microing phoneix attack move while the upper level players have more traditional starcraft 1 muta micro.
As a suggestion for the tank shooting you could put in a special "Assign Attack" where the player targets a unit and then can issue move commands.
On May 13 2010 22:53 Archerofaiur wrote: One suggestion. You might not want to call this the "SS project".
Yeah I feel really bad, just wasn't thinking, hopefully a mod can change this. In the meantime I already put in an apology
lol no need to apolgize. Project micro sounds better two.
One thing i really like is this idea of making different levels of micro. Meaning the lower level players can enjoy microing phoneix attack move while the upper level players have more traditional starcraft 1 muta micro.
As a suggestion for the tank shooting you could put in a special "Assign Attack" where the player targets a unit and then can issue move commands.
if he just manages to make the turret always look at the closest enemy then it will be exactly like sc1 where u could do this. move any direction u wanted while attacking (ofc u had to click attack to attack and then keep on moving but this is a great thing because autoattack r for mothership noobs xD)
On May 13 2010 22:53 Archerofaiur wrote: One suggestion. You might not want to call this the "SS project".
Yeah I feel really bad, just wasn't thinking, hopefully a mod can change this. In the meantime I already put in an apology
lol no need to apolgize. Project micro sounds better two.
One thing i really like is this idea of making different levels of micro. Meaning the lower level players can enjoy microing phoneix attack move while the upper level players have more traditional starcraft 1 muta micro.
As a suggestion for the tank shooting you could put in a special "Assign Attack" where the player targets a unit and then can issue move commands.
Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that you issue attack once and then click move and the tank continues to shoot (phoenix style)? If so I'm not sure that's a good idea. Otherwise please elaborate
On May 13 2010 22:53 Archerofaiur wrote: One suggestion. You might not want to call this the "SS project".
Yeah I feel really bad, just wasn't thinking, hopefully a mod can change this. In the meantime I already put in an apology
lol no need to apolgize. Project micro sounds better two.
One thing i really like is this idea of making different levels of micro. Meaning the lower level players can enjoy microing phoneix attack move while the upper level players have more traditional starcraft 1 muta micro.
As a suggestion for the tank shooting you could put in a special "Assign Attack" where the player targets a unit and then can issue move commands.
if he just manages to make the turret always look at the closest enemy then it will be exactly like sc1 where u could do this. move any direction u wanted while attacking (ofc u had to click attack to attack and then keep on moving but this is a great thing because autoattack r for mothership noobs xD)
Not sure about the hellion one. Seems kinda like the current phoenix "micro." Like the tank one tho! It'd be very useful to be able to overcome hard counters through superior micro.
On May 13 2010 23:23 Ryuu314 wrote: Not sure about the hellion one. Seems kinda like the current phoenix "micro." Like the tank one tho! It'd be very useful to be able to overcome hard counters through superior micro.
I thought so as well, but apparently, while the current phoenix-micro only needs you to move and they attack automatically without ever stopping, the hellion-micro actually needs you to stop with the hold-position-button and then move again - at least that's my understanding of it.
Maybe just change sth about the ability of the Hellion to shoot in any direction - seems a bit too powerful for my taste. You could also just make the attack weaker though... Most important thing is that it's micro-intensive but allows you to use them more effectively.
just wanted to drop in and say that even if this isn't implemented (I'm on the fence about stuff like this) its really amazing work. Nice effort sluggaslamoo
I can't wait to see mini-movies using this engine since people can modify how a unit behaves to make it do specific things for them like you have shown
I wouldn't really mind slightly better hellion and tank control, like MorroW said you can do both of those moves now but it could be made a lot better. The way you micro tanks/hellions now is as a mechanic fine, I just think that the acceleration speed of both units need to be increased a tad to make it work better since now you can move and shoot with the hellion but it takes too long for it to move away again.
I really can't see any way muta stacking is going back into the game though, or even a fast muta move shot. It just seems to completely unravel so many other balance issues. First of all with unlimited control group size you can just fly in and oneshot a command center and fly out before being hit. It also seems that if you give move shot like that to mutalisks then you need to increase marine range, and if you increase marine range then that affects a whole bunch of other balance issues.
edit: For anyone who don't see just how much bw'esque style muta control will affect game balance you really need to play more TvP and try to defend against voidrays with marines. Take that and make it ten times more annoying and you have muta move shot.
Not going to argue over what should or shouldn't be good for the game, I'll just focus on what I think is realistic to ask for and I believe that it is possible that blizzard will polish control for certain units if the community demands it, such as making it a bit more precise to kite with a tank. But any more radical changes I don't see happening.
On May 13 2010 23:05 sluggaslamoo wrote: Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that you issue attack once and then click move and the tank continues to shoot (phoenix style)? If so I'm not sure that's a good idea. Otherwise please elaborate
I was thinking more along the lines of a attack button that does not include a move button. So if I wanted two move a tank line through the enemy I could issue a move command and then seperatly issue a series of attack commands to focus fire the enemy.
Can I ask you why you favor changing the current Phoenix mechanics? What is wrong with having one micro ability that low to mid level players can perform?
On May 13 2010 23:05 sluggaslamoo wrote: Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that you issue attack once and then click move and the tank continues to shoot (phoenix style)? If so I'm not sure that's a good idea. Otherwise please elaborate
I was thinking more along the lines of a attack button that does not include a move button. So if I wanted two move a tank line through the enemy I could issue a move command and then seperatly issue a series of attack commands to focus fire the enemy.
Can I ask you why you favor changing the current Phoenix mechanics? What is wrong with having one micro ability that low to mid level players can perform?
Is it really Micro what we see with the Phoenix? I think it's way too easy and the possibilities for better players to have better micro are far to little.
What's wrong with Units that are too hard to micro to the best of their possibilities for newbs? Why does a unit have to be designed in a way new players can control it perfectly as soon as they pick up the game?
There is really no disadvantage in making Units harder to control, unless you assume that a newb should be able to play as good as a pro concerning Unit-control. ^^'
Muta-Micro, Wraith-Micro, Reaver-Drops, Vulture-Micro was very hard in SC1, but that made the game not less enjoyable for newer players at all, did it?
I think that there are ppl out there that wan't to be pro's in SC2 without having to do anything for it and Blizzard tries to motivate those ppl to try out the game with advertising with easier to use controls and stuff - bottom line is all players start at the same level, you get no advantage as a newb if they make a game easier, because there is still MUCH room to improve. The only thing you accomplish by making Units less micro-intensive is lowering the possibilities for skill-differences and playstyles to evolve on the highest level, which will not concern newbs AT ALL...
It's just a wrong train of thought of Blizzard IMHO...
On May 13 2010 23:44 kickinhead wrote: Is it really Micro what we see with the Phoenix?
Yes. It is micro.
What's wrong with Units that are too hard to micro to the best of their possibilities for newbs?
Nothing. Which is why I favor giving that type of harder micro to tank, hellion, mutalisk, etc.
Why does a unit have to be designed in a way new players can control it perfectly as soon as they pick up the game?
So they can enjoy the game and have a task that they can master and enjoy. They can then start learning harder micro tasks. Remember Blizzards mantra "Easy to learn, Hard to master". There should be varing layers of micro difficulty. Additionally having differrent types of micro for different units makes the units feel and play uniquely.
There is really no disadvantage in making Units harder to control, unless you assume that a newb should be able to win against a pro. ^^'
I dont think there is a single person on the earth who thinks that. Furthermore leaving phoenix micro easy for new players would not make them automatically win against pros.
Were you talking about the Phoenix-Micro from Patch11? Because this sort of micro isn't hard to master at all afaik. You just fly around without having to attack or hold-position or anything - they just shoot automatically while flying, at least that's what I've heard (I haven't played with them actually in Patch11).
I think the harder the micro, the better, IF you can also use the Units on a lower skilllevel, which was totally possible with the Micro in SC1 and that's how it should be in SC2.
Don't think about newbs when designing a game like that - they are just not influenced by that stuff at all IMHO. Or do you think newer players will say: "If I can't Micro Mutas perfectly on Day1 - I will not buy SC2!"? ^^'
I strongly support what the OP is doing, and I really hope that Blizzard takes heed and re-implements advanced micro into SC2. Sure it will cause temporary balance issues, but any balance issue can be worked out over time, whereas no amount of time can make up for lost depth. I can understand not wanting to give Mutalisks moving shot since you no longer have the 12-unit selection limit, but I don't see that a good reason for Blizzard to remove advanced micro entirely from every single unit.
If something becomes overpowered from advanced micro, just nerf it. It's that simple. No need to throw the baby out with bathwater just because one or two units benefits too much from it.
Once Blizzard makes the game "easy" to learn, they never add the difficulty in fear of losing customers.
Im not going to get into a debate on whether "Easy to learn, Hard to master" is a good game design philosophy for Blizzard. It has worked so far even if you dont like WOW.
And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game
Also I would like someone to show me a true noob (just starting to play SC2) who can micro phoenix's perfectly :p
On May 13 2010 23:48 Archerofaiur wrote: "Easy to learn, Hard to master".
Ever hear of World of Warcraft? Once Blizzard makes the game "easy" to learn, they never add the difficulty in fear of losing customers.
Oh come one, WoW is actually (or at least used to be) a very good example of that philosophy. Anybody can play WoW and have fun, but if you are into hardcore raiding/pvp there is a lot of content for you as well.
Anyways I got the tank working the way you guys wanted. It follows targets but only shoots when the tank stops, the turret returns when there are no enemies around. :D Again no programming required = sweeet
For everyone saying "omg infinite air selection imba!":
Remember that if your entire army is selected to 1 hotkey in one place, you have NOTHING to stop a ground army. And every race has something to deal with stacked air (T= thors, P= storm, Z= fungal). So no, it wont be imba, but might actually allow blizz to keep lowering attack and hp values to make the game a little more back and forth.
For everyone saying "omg it looks so easy and isnt really micro!":
Mutalisk stacking and firing looks easy. It isnt. Even something like vulture micro which is pretty easy is much harder when you have to macro, divide your attention between 3 bases, and micro.
On May 14 2010 00:30 Two_DoWn wrote: Even something like vulture micro which is pretty easy is much harder when you have to macro, divide your attention between 3 bases, and micro.
On May 14 2010 00:26 LaLuSh wrote: What sort of upload speed you got in Australia man? Come here and we'll get those vids up in minutes.
Well here in Australia we are primitive people. I have a direct connection to youtube using wet bits of string to transfer electrical currents which are transformed into binary data at the other end.
We also program using butterflies. They open their hands and let the delicate wings flap once. The disturbance ripples outwards, changing the flow of the eddie currents in the upper atmosphere. These cause momentary pockets of high-pressure air to form, which act as lenses that deflect incoming cosmic rays, focusing them to strike the drive platter and flip the desired bit.
On May 13 2010 23:56 Archerofaiur wrote: And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game
You took that the wrong way, what I meant with this is you shouldn't make a game easier to master because you're afraid that noobs won't play it.
I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread. Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
The whole concept of an RTS is IMHO a rather demanding game, but the beauty of it is, you don't have to master it to have fun! So why make it easier, when the ppl you make it easier for won't really be affected by it, because they just play it on another level then ppl that would be affected by the possilibites of better controls over the unit and more demanding micro.
It's just that I don't get the how Blizzard justifys their decisions of making the game easier.
I totally get MBS and smartcasting, just because that's stuff that's basically standard in a modern RTS, but controls that are worse than in SC1 cannot simply be justified by saying "we did this to make the game newb-friendlier"...
On May 13 2010 23:56 Archerofaiur wrote: And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game
You took that the wrong way, what I meant with this is you shouldn't make a game easier to master because you're afraid that noobs won't play it.
I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread. Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
Give me a reason why having a graded system of micro difficulty (meaning easier micro tasks like phoenix attack move and harder micro tasks like muta micro) is a bad thing.
I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread. Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
The whole idea is to have a gradual progression to draw fans in and encourage them to continually improve their game. Dont forget, everyone of us here was once a noob. Having different levels of micro difficulty is part of that.
On May 14 2010 00:38 lolaloc wrote: Or just get stacked mutas for yourself.
True. But I kinda feel there should be ways to allow zerg to counter without going exactly mirror mirror.
On May 14 2010 00:36 Archerofaiur wrote: Could give spore crawlers AoE attack if you needed some way for Zerg to fend off stacked mutas.
Or you just use Fungal-Growth, which will completely rape Stacked Mutas.
I think Zerg has enough opportunities with Fungal growth, besides, it's a mirrormatch, so they could just go massmutas as well if it was that imba.
I also think Protoss has good counters with Storm and Archons, but Terran could have a Problem if you'd have to go Thors, just because it should be possible to not go mech and still defend against Mass-Mutas, so you'd have to maybe either give Viking AoE (and if you change the control-scheme for them too, you'd anyways had to change maybe the range or sth.) or make the HSM more useful against the Fast Mutas which will fly away from the HSM like nobody's business. ^^'
On May 13 2010 23:56 Archerofaiur wrote: And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game
You took that the wrong way, what I meant with this is you shouldn't make a game easier to master because you're afraid that noobs won't play it.
I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread. Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
Give me a reason why having a graded system of micro difficulty (meaning easier micro tasks like phoenix attack move and harder micro tasks like muta micro) is a bad thing.
"Noobs will play the campaign" Yes and then hopefully they will begin learning multiplayer. The whole idea is to have a gradual progression to draw fans in and encourage them to continually improve their game. Dont forget, everyone of us here was once a noob.
I don't really get what you mean: You wan't Phoenix to be easier to control and Mutas to be harder, so you'd have to choose your race based on how micro-intensiv you want to play to effectively use your Units?
On May 13 2010 23:56 Archerofaiur wrote: And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game
You took that the wrong way, what I meant with this is you shouldn't make a game easier to master because you're afraid that noobs won't play it.
I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread. Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
Give me a reason why having a graded system of micro difficulty (meaning easier micro tasks like phoenix attack move and harder micro tasks like muta micro) is a bad thing.
You think having an average protoss player able to combat an amazing zerg player just because the phoenix is relatively easy to use while the muta requires vast amounts of talent is fair?
If theres a way to make a unit infinitely better by making it harder to use, then it needs to be that way. Theres a reason why SC1 has gone on for over 10 years and why CnC needs to keep making sequels every year.
On May 13 2010 23:56 Archerofaiur wrote: And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game
You took that the wrong way, what I meant with this is you shouldn't make a game easier to master because you're afraid that noobs won't play it.
I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread. Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
Give me a reason why having a graded system of micro difficulty (meaning easier micro tasks like phoenix attack move and harder micro tasks like muta micro) is a bad thing.
You think having an average protoss player able to combat an amazing zerg player just because the phoenix is relatively easy to use while the muta requires vast amounts of talent is fair?
If theres a way to make a unit infinitely better by making it harder to use, then it needs to be that way. Theres a reason why SC1 has gone on for over 10 years and why CnC needs to keep making sequels every year.
I totally agree, if those changes would be implemented, you'd have to go the whole way and change the other Units in the same manner as well, so also stuff like Vikings, Phoenix etc.
Even now there are enough ppl now that are saying Protoss is already "the easy race"...
On May 13 2010 23:56 Archerofaiur wrote: And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game
You took that the wrong way, what I meant with this is you shouldn't make a game easier to master because you're afraid that noobs won't play it.
I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread. Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
Give me a reason why having a graded system of micro difficulty (meaning easier micro tasks like phoenix attack move and harder micro tasks like muta micro) is a bad thing.
You think having an average protoss player able to combat an amazing zerg player just because the phoenix is relatively easy to use while the muta requires vast amounts of talent is fair?
No the idea should be that power would be tied to difficulty. Personally I would like to see how the OP's muta micro stacks up against patch 11 phoenix micro.
On May 14 2010 00:40 kickinhead wrote: I don't really get what you mean: You wan't Phoenix to be easier to control and Mutas to be harder, so you'd have to choose your race based on how micro-intensiv you want to play to effectively use your Units?
I thought Protoss were supposed to be the easy race :p
No just kidding. I think Protoss should have easy micro options and hard micro options. And zerg should have hard micro options. And in some cases hard micro should counter easy micro. So to use this example the numbers could (i believe) be balanced where zerg has the advantage in PvZ if they use their hard micro with enough skill.
On May 13 2010 23:56 Archerofaiur wrote: And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game
You took that the wrong way, what I meant with this is you shouldn't make a game easier to master because you're afraid that noobs won't play it.
I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread. Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
Give me a reason why having a graded system of micro difficulty (meaning easier micro tasks like phoenix attack move and harder micro tasks like muta micro) is a bad thing.
You think having an average protoss player able to combat an amazing zerg player just because the phoenix is relatively easy to use while the muta requires vast amounts of talent is fair?
If theres a way to make a unit infinitely better by making it harder to use, then it needs to be that way. Theres a reason why SC1 has gone on for over 10 years and why CnC needs to keep making sequels every year.
I totally agree, if those changes would be implemented, you'd have to go the whole way and change the other Units in the same manner as well, so also stuff like Vikings, Phoenix etc.
Even now there are enough ppl now that are saying Protoss is already "the easy race"...
Im not gonna get into which race i think is the easiest, but i hope that if Blizzard is to ignore the people that have played their game for the past 10 years and keep the game the way it is, then people like the OP can at least make an UMS map
On May 13 2010 23:56 Archerofaiur wrote: And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game
You took that the wrong way, what I meant with this is you shouldn't make a game easier to master because you're afraid that noobs won't play it.
I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread. Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
Give me a reason why having a graded system of micro difficulty (meaning easier micro tasks like phoenix attack move and harder micro tasks like muta micro) is a bad thing.
You think having an average protoss player able to combat an amazing zerg player just because the phoenix is relatively easy to use while the muta requires vast amounts of talent is fair?
No the idea should be that power would be tied to difficulty. Personally I would like to see how the OP's muta micro stacks up against patch 11 phoenix micro.
Well since the Phoenix is faster and outranges the muta id imagine it would look kinda like Marine vs Muta in SC1 with the Muta trying to bait the Phoenix into making a wrong turn and taking a hit. Sounds fun at the least.
Actually now that I think about it it might make more sence for thors to lose the AoE and give ti to turrets. This would give Terran a counter even if they dont go mech. Also, Ive kinda been missing the build turrets out in the field from SC1.
LIke i said all this stuff needs to be tested though. SS do you want us to put together a list of potential playtesters?
On May 13 2010 23:56 Archerofaiur wrote: And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game
You took that the wrong way, what I meant with this is you shouldn't make a game easier to master because you're afraid that noobs won't play it.
I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread. Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
Give me a reason why having a graded system of micro difficulty (meaning easier micro tasks like phoenix attack move and harder micro tasks like muta micro) is a bad thing.
You think having an average protoss player able to combat an amazing zerg player just because the phoenix is relatively easy to use while the muta requires vast amounts of talent is fair?
No the idea should be that power would be tied to difficulty. Personally I would like to see how the OP's muta micro stacks up against patch 11 phoenix micro.
Well since the Phoenix is faster and outranges the muta id imagine it would look kinda like Marine vs Muta in SC1 with the Muta trying to bait the Phoenix into making a wrong turn and taking a hit. Sounds fun at the least.
See? It may be that the phoenix's "easy" micro perfectly compliments SS's new muta micro. It kinda reminds me of scourge chasing funnily enough.
On May 13 2010 23:56 Archerofaiur wrote: And I dont even know what to say to people saying noobs shouldnt even be consider when designing a game
You took that the wrong way, what I meant with this is you shouldn't make a game easier to master because you're afraid that noobs won't play it.
I mean: Noobs will play the campaign-mode, which will not be affected by the changes suggested in this thread. Then, they'll maybe start playing online, but with the auto-matchmaking, they'll just play against ppl that play on the same level, so you don't need to master the whole game before you can have fun.
Give me a reason why having a graded system of micro difficulty (meaning easier micro tasks like phoenix attack move and harder micro tasks like muta micro) is a bad thing.
You think having an average protoss player able to combat an amazing zerg player just because the phoenix is relatively easy to use while the muta requires vast amounts of talent is fair?
Dude phoenix would be infinitely easier if it had splash like corsairs instead of this 1 more range so try to dance with bnet lag trickery.. Just a move and done..
On May 14 2010 00:52 Archerofaiur wrote: LIke i said all this stuff needs to be tested though. SS do you want us to put together a list of potential playtesters?
Yes please, save me from the embarrassment lol. Nah that would be awesome, we would have to see what difference it makes between ratings as well i guess. Thanks.
On May 14 2010 01:02 alffla wrote: sorry i haven't really read through the thread and dont really follow sc2 either, but did i just see mutalisks shoot ilke glowing blue projectiles
the 0 delay or w/e seems nice though, hehe
OP just made the glaives glow for demonstration purposes.
The worst part about all of this is that none of it will be implemented. The Phoenix change was only brought in because Protoss have horrid AA, but its unfair to other races that only I can do a moving shot. But if Blizz were to bring the moving shot in for every race, they'd have to get rid of this hard counter system they've created, which wont happen.
On May 14 2010 01:04 Mania[K]al wrote:but its unfair to other races that only I can do a moving shot.
Its unfair that observer and dt are cloacked, zerg can burrow, that terran can lift buildings, that protoss can warp units.. Ohh its unfair that only tank can siege.. Why cant immortal siege and shoot with insane range.. Phoenix shot is a unique ability given to this unit just like every other unit has something..its not meant to replicate bugs from sc like you all seem to think that blizz misheard you.. Different game, different mechanics, different gameplay... Game you all want already exists so rejoice..
On May 14 2010 01:04 Mania[K]al wrote:but its unfair to other races that only I can do a moving shot.
Its unfair that observer and dt are cloacked, zerg can burrow, that terran can lift buildings, that protoss can warp units.. Ohh its unfair that only tank can siege.. Why cant immortal siege and shoot with insane range.. Phoenix shot is a unique ability given to this unit just like every other unit has something..its not meant to replicate bugs from sc like you all seem to think that blizz misheard you.. Different game, different mechanics, different gameplay... Game you all want already exists so rejoice..
So you disagree that SC2 is inferior to its predecessor? You can see this game going 10 years?
Hi, I just wanted to post that you did a phenomenal job! These things are exactly what micro should be. I just hope Blizzard will acknowledge this, and maybe cave in and implement this ^^!
On May 14 2010 01:04 Mania[K]al wrote:but its unfair to other races that only I can do a moving shot.
Its unfair that observer and dt are cloacked, zerg can burrow, that terran can lift buildings, that protoss can warp units.. Ohh its unfair that only tank can siege.. Why cant immortal siege and shoot with insane range.. Phoenix shot is a unique ability given to this unit just like every other unit has something..its not meant to replicate bugs from sc like you all seem to think that blizz misheard you.. Different game, different mechanics, different gameplay... Game you all want already exists so rejoice..
So you disagree that SC2 is inferior to its predecessor? You can see this game going 10 years?
Im saying its different.. And we cant expect them to put old bugs in game.. And some people said that new phoenix reduces micro.. How? With old phoenix you can just engage and be a spectator but now you can really micro them around.. And then some people said that its overpowered because it has 1 range over them and slightly faster.. According to their theory stacked mutas would rape infinite archons because of much faster speed and longer range.. They can reinvent some units for different micro tricks but I dont see them changing whole game to be like sc..
On May 14 2010 01:04 Mania[K]al wrote:but its unfair to other races that only I can do a moving shot.
Its unfair that observer and dt are cloacked, zerg can burrow, that terran can lift buildings, that protoss can warp units.. Ohh its unfair that only tank can siege.. Why cant immortal siege and shoot with insane range.. Phoenix shot is a unique ability given to this unit just like every other unit has something..its not meant to replicate bugs from sc like you all seem to think that blizz misheard you.. Different game, different mechanics, different gameplay... Game you all want already exists so rejoice..
So you disagree that SC2 is inferior to its predecessor? You can see this game going 10 years?
Im saying its different.. And we cant expect them to put old bugs in game.. And some people said that new phoenix reduces micro.. How? With old phoenix you can just engage and be a spectator but now you can really micro them around.. And then some people said that its overpowered because it has 1 range over them and slightly faster.. According to their theory stacked mutas would rape infinite archons because of much faster speed and longer range.. They can reinvent some units for different micro tricks but I dont see them changing whole game to be like sc..
In an extreme case, you can fly the phoenix around the map using the minimap and it will shoot everything on the way. Its the kind of micro that doesn't require multitasking or screen-flicking, as flying past mutas and exploiting their ability to target is almost as effective as strafing backwards.
This is not always the case, there are instances where this allows for great "attention grabbing" micro, but I am looking to find a compromise, I have another idea so ill be working on another version of phoenix soon. Again I'm doing this just to explore possiblities, i don't really have an issue with patch 11 phoenix and thought the strafing back was pretty cool when it came out.
I like the tank one. So long as they are sufficiently difficult, micro overcoming hard counters should be possible. The hellion one looks retarded for that reason.
I would but my upload is so bad i can only record the most fundamental stuff. I even have banshee and viking micro but because its similar to the phoenix i decided to not upload it.
The map will be uploaded in half a day, you certainly can try it out then. m(^_^)m
On May 14 2010 01:04 Mania[K]al wrote:but its unfair to other races that only I can do a moving shot.
Its unfair that observer and dt are cloacked, zerg can burrow, that terran can lift buildings, that protoss can warp units.. Ohh its unfair that only tank can siege.. Why cant immortal siege and shoot with insane range.. Phoenix shot is a unique ability given to this unit just like every other unit has something..its not meant to replicate bugs from sc like you all seem to think that blizz misheard you.. Different game, different mechanics, different gameplay... Game you all want already exists so rejoice..
So you disagree that SC2 is inferior to its predecessor? You can see this game going 10 years?
Im saying its different.. And we cant expect them to put old bugs in game.. And some people said that new phoenix reduces micro.. How? With old phoenix you can just engage and be a spectator but now you can really micro them around.. And then some people said that its overpowered because it has 1 range over them and slightly faster.. According to their theory stacked mutas would rape infinite archons because of much faster speed and longer range.. They can reinvent some units for different micro tricks but I dont see them changing whole game to be like sc..
In an extreme case, you can fly the phoenix around the map using the minimap and it will shoot everything on the way.
And why is that a problem? If you do that and it encounters an overlord it will hit him a few times and carry on..If it encounters corruptors they will take more damage because of moving trough a 4-6 range zone around corruptor where they are hit but dont shoot.. And vs vikings there is a bigger 4-9 zone, so if you move past them you are taking damage for 10 units without shooting back. Its still better to a-move it around the map..
I was amazed at how wrong at theorycrafting people can be when they said new phoenix will rape corruptors and vikings, when its a fact that its better to just engage them and dont dance as dancing phoenix wont shoot but will still be shot by longer range of these units..
On May 14 2010 01:04 Mania[K]al wrote:but its unfair to other races that only I can do a moving shot.
Its unfair that observer and dt are cloacked, zerg can burrow, that terran can lift buildings, that protoss can warp units.. Ohh its unfair that only tank can siege.. Why cant immortal siege and shoot with insane range.. Phoenix shot is a unique ability given to this unit just like every other unit has something..its not meant to replicate bugs from sc like you all seem to think that blizz misheard you.. Different game, different mechanics, different gameplay... Game you all want already exists so rejoice..
So you disagree that SC2 is inferior to its predecessor? You can see this game going 10 years?
Im saying its different.. And we cant expect them to put old bugs in game.. And some people said that new phoenix reduces micro.. How? With old phoenix you can just engage and be a spectator but now you can really micro them around.. And then some people said that its overpowered because it has 1 range over them and slightly faster.. According to their theory stacked mutas would rape infinite archons because of much faster speed and longer range.. They can reinvent some units for different micro tricks but I dont see them changing whole game to be like sc..
In an extreme case, you can fly the phoenix around the map using the minimap and it will shoot everything on the way.
And why is that a problem?
Last time I checked, Blizzard wants decision to be central in SC2. With that kind of automation in the Phoenix, a player cannot decide to NOT attack.
On May 14 2010 01:04 Mania[K]al wrote:but its unfair to other races that only I can do a moving shot.
Its unfair that observer and dt are cloacked, zerg can burrow, that terran can lift buildings, that protoss can warp units.. Ohh its unfair that only tank can siege.. Why cant immortal siege and shoot with insane range.. Phoenix shot is a unique ability given to this unit just like every other unit has something..its not meant to replicate bugs from sc like you all seem to think that blizz misheard you.. Different game, different mechanics, different gameplay... Game you all want already exists so rejoice..
So you disagree that SC2 is inferior to its predecessor? You can see this game going 10 years?
Im saying its different.. And we cant expect them to put old bugs in game.. And some people said that new phoenix reduces micro.. How? With old phoenix you can just engage and be a spectator but now you can really micro them around.. And then some people said that its overpowered because it has 1 range over them and slightly faster.. According to their theory stacked mutas would rape infinite archons because of much faster speed and longer range.. They can reinvent some units for different micro tricks but I dont see them changing whole game to be like sc..
In an extreme case, you can fly the phoenix around the map using the minimap and it will shoot everything on the way.
And why is that a problem? If you do that and it encounters an overlord it will hit him a few times and carry on..If it encounters corruptors they will take more damage because of moving trough a 4-6 range zone around corruptor where they are hit but dont shoot.. And vs vikings there is a bigger 4-9 zone, so if you move past them you are taking damage for 10 units without shooting back. Its still better to a-move it around the map..
I was amazed at how wrong at theorycrafting people can be when they said new phoenix will rape corruptors and vikings, when its a fact that its better to just engage them and dont dance as dancing phoenix wont shoot but will still be shot by longer range of these units..
Oh no I got into a debate even though i resisted for so long -_- i guess i can't help myself
Well for example lets say you have nony's 2 stargate phoenix build i would assume fly-bys would destroy overlords.
You also have the problem of the phoenix being much much less restricted by physics, so dancing phoenixs would allow for receiving less hits. Simply because the enemy units will be constrained by rotation and slowing movement shot (which is actually more delayed than stop shot). This is why if you fly past mutalisks a bunch of times you receive less damage, than if you just sit there. At least that's what I saw in one of the phoenix micro vids.
You're right, its not overpowered, but i think the point about non-dancing being more powerful than dancing is incorrect.
K the new tank is finally uploaded. Probably the most satisfying improvement so far. Hopefully I've fixed the problems that you guys mentioned about the previous tank.
If you look at the controls you can see the mashing of move and hold position, even though it looks like auto attack.
On May 14 2010 01:04 Mania[K]al wrote:but its unfair to other races that only I can do a moving shot.
Its unfair that observer and dt are cloacked, zerg can burrow, that terran can lift buildings, that protoss can warp units.. Ohh its unfair that only tank can siege.. Why cant immortal siege and shoot with insane range.. Phoenix shot is a unique ability given to this unit just like every other unit has something..its not meant to replicate bugs from sc like you all seem to think that blizz misheard you.. Different game, different mechanics, different gameplay... Game you all want already exists so rejoice..
So you disagree that SC2 is inferior to its predecessor? You can see this game going 10 years?
Im saying its different.. And we cant expect them to put old bugs in game.. And some people said that new phoenix reduces micro.. How? With old phoenix you can just engage and be a spectator but now you can really micro them around.. And then some people said that its overpowered because it has 1 range over them and slightly faster.. According to their theory stacked mutas would rape infinite archons because of much faster speed and longer range.. They can reinvent some units for different micro tricks but I dont see them changing whole game to be like sc..
In an extreme case, you can fly the phoenix around the map using the minimap and it will shoot everything on the way.
And why is that a problem? If you do that and it encounters an overlord it will hit him a few times and carry on..If it encounters corruptors they will take more damage because of moving trough a 4-6 range zone around corruptor where they are hit but dont shoot.. And vs vikings there is a bigger 4-9 zone, so if you move past them you are taking damage for 10 units without shooting back. Its still better to a-move it around the map..
I was amazed at how wrong at theorycrafting people can be when they said new phoenix will rape corruptors and vikings, when its a fact that its better to just engage them and dont dance as dancing phoenix wont shoot but will still be shot by longer range of these units..
Oh no I got into a debate even though i resisted for so long -_- i guess i can't help myself
Well for example lets say you have nony's 2 stargate phoenix build i would assume fly-bys would destroy overlords.
You also have the problem of the phoenix being much much less restricted by physics, so dancing phoenixs would allow for receiving less hits. Simply because the enemy units will be constrained by rotation and slowing movement shot (which is actually more delayed than stop shot). This is why if you fly past mutalisks a bunch of times you receive less damage, than if you just sit there. At least that's what I saw in one of the phoenix micro vids.
You're right, its not overpowered, but i think the point about non-dancing being more powerful than dancing is incorrect.
I dont see how killing overlords is any different..Its just that the unit is more responsive so you can reposition them faster..
"You're right, its not overpowered, but i think the point about non-dancing being more powerful than dancing is incorrect." Its powerful vs units with lower range than phoenix and only such unit is mutalisk.. You cant dance against anything else and be efficient.. Its mathematically impossible.. Prove me wrong if you can.. You can dance all you want in (4-9] range around vikings with you being in range and recieving shots but you wont get a shot on them..
On May 14 2010 02:06 sluggaslamoo wrote: K the new tank is finally uploaded. Probably the most satisfying improvement so far. Hopefully I've fixed the problems that you guys mentioned about the previous tank.
If you look at the controls you can see the mashing of move and hold position, even though it looks like auto attack.
On May 14 2010 02:21 MorroW wrote: reat job at tank v0.2 thats exactly what i wanted
by clicking hold pos target fire and attack move and patrol also works?
Attack-move works but its slower because its 2 clicks instead of 1, patrol is the same. It auto targets the nearest unit and you press hold-position to stop and fire, click move again to keep going.
If you wanna target a specific unit you can just attack-move on the unit obviously, and then do the same thing.
On May 14 2010 02:24 Mothxal wrote: How do you think it'll work with the 125ms latency in battle.net?
One of the most depressing things about this is that me living in Australia can only suffer from this at least until the new servers or login+offline arrives. However I am amazed that I still do better than some US players with reapers. Its really just a delay, so you can pre-empt it, and if you know the timing, its not really an issue.
I don't think it will be that much of a problem at 125ms. Really I couldn't care less, I would love to see some crazy micro executed by pros in SC2, sure you still have the micro in SC2 right now, but I think the more options and the ability to not just afk once you see counter units would be a good thing.
Again I'm not really concerned about this right now.
On May 14 2010 02:29 Random() wrote: Tank v 0.2 is perfect Only the turning rate is just a bit too fast, looks a bit wrong when it instantly turns its body around.
This is default surprisingly, I am looking at ways to make it less "jerky". I don't think people before moved the tank like that so i guess that's why it was not noticeable back then.
Whats the point of this? The micro you're showing is cool and all but its waay to easy to pull off which makes it look silly.
You seem to forget what made SC:BW micro great - it had the cool visuals AND was difficult to pull off, that is what made it great. Most these vods show its not difficult to pull off, only that it looks cooler.
You cant dance against anything else and be efficient.. Its mathematically impossible.. Prove me wrong if you can...
Um nah my net sucks too much, im too busy uploading these things
You seem pretty confident with your argument, so i have no qualms in agreeing.
lol, dude its soooo simple :D ... If you have 5P vs 5V.. If any P is in (4-9] range it will not deal damage.. Vikings will constantly deal damage to anything in 9 range.. Phoenix will deal damage only when its 4 units away from viking..
So if all P are within 4 range all will shoot.. If you A move and battle starts it looks like this 5P shoot 5V shoot 5P shoot 5V shoot
and if you try to dance vikings will still all shoot while your phoenix out of 4 range wont so if one of them is out its: 4P shoot 5V shoot So phoenix army has less DPS while viking DSP is constant..
If you dont get it try it in editor.. 5P vs 5V a-move they win.. Try and move them and they lose..
On May 14 2010 02:35 Senx wrote: Whats the point of this? The micro you're showing is cool and all but its waay to easy to pull off which makes it look silly.
You seem to forget what made SC:BW micro great - it had the cool visuals AND was difficult to pull off, that is what made it great. Most these vods show its not difficult to pull off, only that it looks cooler.
It's not the way that phoenix works, his changes make it work much like BW (i.e. you need to alternate move-hold-move-hold commands to make it shoot like that).
Honestly I think this should be featured and put to the front page so that Blizzard guys see what is all that "lack of micro" fuss about and how easy that is to fix.
You should add text to the videos explaining what you are doing, in the event that Blizzard watches them and says "oh they want the tank to be like the phoenix!!"
You cant dance against anything else and be efficient.. Its mathematically impossible.. Prove me wrong if you can...
Um nah my net sucks too much, im too busy uploading these things
You seem pretty confident with your argument, so i have no qualms in agreeing.
lol, dude its soooo simple :D ... If you have 5P vs 5V.. If any P is in (4-9] range it will not deal damage.. Vikings will constantly deal damage to anything in 9 range.. Phoenix will deal damage only when its 4 units away from viking..
So if all P are within 4 range all will shoot.. If you A move and battle starts it looks like this 5P shoot 5V shoot 5P shoot 5V shoot
and if you try to dance vikings will still all shoot while your phoenix out of 4 range wont so if one of them is out its: 4P shoot 5V shoot So phoenix army has less DPS while viking DSP is constant..
If you dont get it try it in editor.. 5P vs 5V a-move they win.. Try and move them and they lose..
Yeah but I'm sure people aren't going to dance them so they can be range exploited. What happens if you move them back and forth within the range of 4. Won't this exploit turning, target aquisition ability and attack delay? This is a question not a statement.
Anyway I already agreed with you, what's the big deal
On May 14 2010 02:38 floor exercise wrote: You should add text to the videos explaining what you are doing, in the event that Blizzard watches them and says "oh they want the tank to be like the phoenix!!"
On May 14 2010 02:38 floor exercise wrote: You should add text to the videos explaining what you are doing, in the event that Blizzard watches them and says "oh they want the tank to be like the phoenix!!"
this u need to add list of changes to every vid
Well hopefully they know how to load maps
I said i would post it in a day, I wanna make some more changes before I release it.
sluggaslamoo, are you gonna upload map? =) Your tank 0.2 is made solely through data-editor? Impressive stuff
On May 14 2010 02:35 Senx wrote: Whats the point of this? The micro you're showing is cool and all but its waay to easy to pull off which makes it look silly.
You seem to forget what made SC:BW micro great - it had the cool visuals AND was difficult to pull off, that is what made it great. Most these vods show its not difficult to pull off, only that it looks cooler.
What are you talking about? Microing one single unit in BW is difficult to pull off? Are you kidding?
You cant dance against anything else and be efficient.. Its mathematically impossible.. Prove me wrong if you can...
Um nah my net sucks too much, im too busy uploading these things
You seem pretty confident with your argument, so i have no qualms in agreeing.
lol, dude its soooo simple :D ... If you have 5P vs 5V.. If any P is in (4-9] range it will not deal damage.. Vikings will constantly deal damage to anything in 9 range.. Phoenix will deal damage only when its 4 units away from viking..
So if all P are within 4 range all will shoot.. If you A move and battle starts it looks like this 5P shoot 5V shoot 5P shoot 5V shoot
and if you try to dance vikings will still all shoot while your phoenix out of 4 range wont so if one of them is out its: 4P shoot 5V shoot So phoenix army has less DPS while viking DSP is constant..
If you dont get it try it in editor.. 5P vs 5V a-move they win.. Try and move them and they lose..
Yeah but I'm sure people aren't going to dance them so they can be range exploited. What happens if you move them back and forth within the range of 4. Won't this exploit turning, target aquisition ability and attack delay? This is a question not a statement.
Anyway I already agreed with you, what's the big deal
There are no units that turn that slow.. its still the same because the phoenix is also turning. Its actually worse because you cant focus your attack..When you move them they acquire closest target and shoot that.. Focusing attack is always the best as you kill units faster and in turn reduce their army dps..Unless there is a big overkill..
This is what I was talking about in the "micro where art thou" topic.
If starcraft2 is not as viewer friendly because of lack of amazing/difficult tasks, the professional leagues can just align to adjust the units and balance themselves, then release a map template of it and build their own maps.
Then casual gamers can play the casual format blizzard releases, and professional or intense gamers can play the micro intensive version.
So your goal is to allow units to behave like the new Phoenix... as long as the player clicks enough times?
You want to add useless actions to the game? To enlarge the epeen of "pros"?
Blizzard knows what you guys are asking for. They know how to implement it. They just would rather have a well-designed game.
Furthermore, pros will always find ways to be better at the game than everyone else. If it's easy to micro one unit or control group, they'll micro a dozen.
On May 14 2010 03:14 RiOrius wrote: So your goal is to allow units to behave like the new Phoenix... as long as the player clicks enough times?
You want to add useless actions to the game? To enlarge the epeen of "pros"?
Blizzard knows what you guys are asking for. They know how to implement it. They just would rather have a well-designed game.
Furthermore, pros will always find ways to be better at the game than everyone else. If it's easy to micro one unit or control group, they'll micro a dozen.
High five! You have no idea what you are talking about! The point here isnt that they are useless clicks- they serve a very important purpose in making the unit function more effectively. It is a concept known as "Micro", you may have heard of it. It makes players who can multi task well win more because it rewards ability.
On May 14 2010 03:14 RiOrius wrote: So your goal is to allow units to behave like the new Phoenix... as long as the player clicks enough times?
You want to add useless actions to the game? To enlarge the epeen of "pros"?
Blizzard knows what you guys are asking for. They know how to implement it. They just would rather have a well-designed game.
Furthermore, pros will always find ways to be better at the game than everyone else. If it's easy to micro one unit or control group, they'll micro a dozen.
this!
Great work creating this stuff SS, but all the people in here whining about how SC2 isn't like SC1 should quit playing the beta and go back to ICCUP. The game isn't even released yet so just wait and see what happens once the final version is in stores. Then see what you can do within the possibilities of the game engine, that is what sets great players apart from the not so great. Same thing with muta micro in SC1, wasn't discovered until the game was out a long time. Start thinking out of the box people! Some in here make it sound as if platinum players are all really mediocre but they can't own them because they can't outclick them any more. There's probably enough micro stuff in the game people just haven't figured out yet
On May 14 2010 03:30 sluggaslamoo wrote: edit: oh god nvm too much caffeine and sleepless nights, good night
So I saw what you wrote initially, and I've gotta say: you were kinda right. In tone, at least. I would like a civil discussion, but my post was excessively snarky; I apologize. Let me try again:
I have read through this thread and it seems the clear consensus is that your micro is the "right" way to do it, whereas Blizzard's Phoenix change is the "wrong" way to do it. And I cannot understand why so many people believe this.
Watching you move the tank around, it looks a lot like how the Phoenix behaves. The tank's delay while firing is extremely small, and he accelerates back to full speed almost instantly. It's very much like he never stopped at all.
The outcome is almost the same. The biggest difference, the one that everyone seems to care about, is that you had to spam move and time your hold positions to get him to behave like that, whereas a Phoenix user would only have to move (and probably with less spamming required).
Why do you all want there to be more clicks required to accomplish the same task? So that only "pros" can use it effectively?
It's the same thing that they used to say about MBS, automine, smartcast. In BW it's really impressive when a pro can spread his Storms out; in SC2, it's pretty easy for anyone to do. But the difficulty wasn't meaningful. Let the computer handle the obvious stuff (when a worker spawns, mine where I tell him to). Let the player do the interesting stuff (set up a series of Force Fields in a wall to cut his army in half; focus the marauders on the stalkers and the marines on the zealots; flank, etc.).
And I'll say it again, because I do believe it's true: if it's easy to micro one control group, the pros will learn to micro a dozen. Let them spend their APM on truly interesting things; don't make them waste it on "move-move-move-hold position-move-move-move".
On May 14 2010 03:14 RiOrius wrote: So your goal is to allow units to behave like the new Phoenix... as long as the player clicks enough times?
You want to add useless actions to the game? To enlarge the epeen of "pros"?
Blizzard knows what you guys are asking for. They know how to implement it. They just would rather have a well-designed game.
Furthermore, pros will always find ways to be better at the game than everyone else. If it's easy to micro one unit or control group, they'll micro a dozen.
this!
Great work creating this stuff SS, but all the people in here whining about how SC2 isn't like SC1 should quit playing the beta and go back to ICCUP. The game isn't even released yet so just wait and see what happens once the final version is in stores.
Conversely, all the people who say that this is SC2 don't change it don't have to follow this either. It's just a neat trick as of now!
If anyone cares, I reposted the OP on the EU Beta forums. I change the title name () and removed functions that would not work on the Battle.net forums. Otherwise, everything is just like SluggaSlamoo posted it: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24702156682&sid=5010
I doubt it will make a difference, but it certainly won't if it is not posted.
On May 14 2010 03:14 RiOrius wrote: So your goal is to allow units to behave like the new Phoenix... as long as the player clicks enough times?
You want to add useless actions to the game? To enlarge the epeen of "pros"?
Blizzard knows what you guys are asking for. They know how to implement it. They just would rather have a well-designed game.
Furthermore, pros will always find ways to be better at the game than everyone else. If it's easy to micro one unit or control group, they'll micro a dozen.
this!
Great work creating this stuff SS, but all the people in here whining about how SC2 isn't like SC1 should quit playing the beta and go back to ICCUP. The game isn't even released yet so just wait and see what happens once the final version is in stores. Then see what you can do within the possibilities of the game engine, that is what sets great players apart from the not so great. Same thing with muta micro in SC1, wasn't discovered until the game was out a long time. Start thinking out of the box people! Some in here make it sound as if platinum players are all really mediocre but they can't own them because they can't outclick them any more. There's probably enough micro stuff in the game people just haven't figured out yet
Stop being ignorant. Muta micro has ALWAYS existed - just not the glitch when you grouped it with a unit far away.
Just watch that.
That is july's mutalisk micro before the glitch was discovered (and you can tell he's not using the glitch by how his mutalisks are not perfectly clumped). Indeed, when July rose to prominence in 2004 his Mutalisk micro defined him as a player and allowed him to outplay the very best (and indeed, allowed him to become the very best). At the highest level of SC2 we are still lacking these things which allow people to be differentiated - the ONLY thing at the moment which does allow differentiation are Void Ray and charge juggling. But given the limited use of Voids at the moment this isn't really much of a differential.
Hellion micro wouldn't disturb balance all that much, as Hellions are basically like a Vulture only more expensive and only effective against Zerglings and Zealots.
If only hellions really moved like this! It frustrates me when they stop, because even when I click them to move immediately after, it seems like they have some kind of delay period before they start moving again.
On May 14 2010 04:46 MaD.pYrO wrote: Hellion micro wouldn't disturb balance all that much, as Hellions are basically like a Vulture only more expensive and only effective against Zerglings and Zealots.
To be honest, the Hellion needs more base damage. Armoured units are too much of a brick wall for Hellions at the moment.
On May 14 2010 03:58 RiOrius wrote: And I'll say it again, because I do believe it's true: if it's easy to micro one control group, the pros will learn to micro a dozen. Let them spend their APM on truly interesting things; don't make them waste it on "move-move-move-hold position-move-move-move".
People keep saying things like this over and over again. "Pros now have the APM to spend it on more interesting things", but they never actually say what these "truly interesting things" are.
I can pretty much guarantee that any example given will be something that pros can already do in both SC1 and SC2. I can't help but wonder if any of you guys have ever seen SC1 played at the high level. Even with high APM requirements, there are still TONS of interesting strategies, maneuvers, and tactics that make the game fun to play. In fact, it was the APM requirements that helped make them fun in the first place, because you knew that it took a lot of effort to pull it off.
Look, the desire to bring back advanced micro isn't about some nostalgic desire to make SC2 a BW clone. The reason why people want micro tricks back is because they are FUN. They are INTERESTING. They are EFFECTIVE. They are SKILLFUL. Everything that SC2 wants in order to be an awesome game exists in these micro tricks. Does Starcraft 2 have interesting micro and strategies? Yes, but it can have even more in addition to that, and that's why we want them to put things like moving shot back in the game.
People keep attacking us as delusional fanboys for wanting features in the game just because SC1 had it, but I think it's the opposite. The delusional fanboys are the people who demand that advanced micro tricks shouldn't be in the game simply because SC1 had them. Whereas the people who want micro tricks in SC2 do so because we have seen with our own eyes how much SC1 benefited from them, and we know that SC2 will benefit from them as well because of how similar it plays to SC1.
Microing is hardly something respected anywhere. You could put a monkey or any simple robot or AI micro units 10x faster than any teenage boy ever could dream of. It's a totally useless and uninteresting skill. When i hear people say some players on SC1 were able to beat the very best because of micro tricks, and talk about that as if it was a good thing, makes me shiver. I'm glad though, because it seems SC2 isn't going on the same direction as SC1, but more strategy based. Maybe we'll see good players actually being more rewarded for being smart, fast thinkers and strategists, than robot clickers.
Blizzard seems to know this, and for that i'm glad they don't listen to these worried boys complaining about not being able to use their 1000 apms and having to think a bit more than their used to.
On May 14 2010 03:14 RiOrius wrote: So your goal is to allow units to behave like the new Phoenix... as long as the player clicks enough times?
You want to add useless actions to the game? To enlarge the epeen of "pros"?
Blizzard knows what you guys are asking for. They know how to implement it. They just would rather have a well-designed game.
Furthermore, pros will always find ways to be better at the game than everyone else. If it's easy to micro one unit or control group, they'll micro a dozen.
You clearly have no clue what you're talking about:
1) We don't want the Units to behave like the Phoenix in Patch 11 - we want micro like in SCBW! 2) Blizzard obviously doesn't know what we want. Best example - Phoenix-changes in Patch 11. 3) pro's will not always find ways to micro better, at some point, you can't micro Units any better, which clearly is the case much sooner with the micro we have in SC2 atm.
But it's not like we expect ppl with under 20 Posts to get what SC1 is all about and why SC2 should go in the same directions. It's not like ppl that probably never played SC1 and that haven't been following the scene for years know what makes the game great, but why post stuff like that to make it even more obvious?
It would be a shame if ppl like you F up the game just by being ignorant and not knowing what they're talking about.
Maybe I'm a bit rough here, but I just think it's totally unmannered to post stuff like that in a thread wiere ppl really think about the game and make stuff happen and show everyone theyre ignoramus himself...
@Duelist: Same thing - go play chess but stay away from threads like this - I'm saddened by ppl like u.
On May 14 2010 05:24 Duelist wrote: Microing is hardly something respected anywhere. You could put a monkey micro units 10x faster than any teenage boy ever could dream of. It's a totally useless skill. When i hear people say some players on SC1 were able to beat the very best because of micro tricks, and talk about that as if it was a good thing, makes me shiver. I'm glad though, because it seems SC2 isn't going on the same direction as SC1, but more strategy based. Maybe we'll see good players actually being more rewarded for being smart, fast thinkers and strategists, than fast clickers.
Blizzard seems to know this, and for that i'm glad they don't listen to these worried boys complaining about not being able to use their 1000 apms and having to think a bit more than their used to.
A great RTS relies on two things - Strategy and execution. You're basically asking blizzard to remove the latter and hence asking for a turn based strategy game.
And I can provide you countless example of strategy and fast thinking defeating the mechanical player. At the highest level of Starcraft, mechanics are par for the course - everyone can micro/macro pretty much the same (with some differences obviously) but those who excel as champions are those who are able to devise game winning strategies - see Fantasy and his vakanic tactics, see UpMagic and his revolutionary mech play vs Zerg, see Bisu are his use of Corsairs and Dark Templar, see Savior and his refinement of the defiler and 3base play.
On May 14 2010 05:24 Duelist wrote: Microing is hardly something respected anywhere. You could put a monkey or any simple robot micro units 10x faster than any teenage boy ever could dream of. It's a totally useless and uninteresting skill. When i hear people say some players on SC1 were able to beat the very best because of micro tricks, and talk about that as if it was a good thing, makes me shiver. I'm glad though, because it seems SC2 isn't going on the same direction as SC1, but more strategy based. Maybe we'll see good players actually being more rewarded for being smart, fast thinkers and strategists, than fast clickers.
Blizzard seems to know this, and for that i'm glad they don't listen to these worried boys complaining about not being able to use their 1000 apms and having to think a bit more than their used to.
Get educated, dude. Strategy is omnipresent regardless of the design. It was in 1, it will be in 2. Come on. Players have always been rewarded for strategic play and will continue to be. Furthermore, micro is simply strategy rapidly executed in a dynamic environment.
On May 14 2010 05:24 Duelist wrote: Microing is hardly something respected anywhere. You could put a monkey or any simple robot or AI micro units 10x faster than any teenage boy ever could dream of. It's a totally useless and uninteresting skill. When i hear people say some players on SC1 were able to beat the very best because of micro tricks, and talk about that as if it was a good thing, makes me shiver. I'm glad though, because it seems SC2 isn't going on the same direction as SC1, but more strategy based. Maybe we'll see good players actually being more rewarded for being smart, fast thinkers and strategists, than robot clickers.
Blizzard seems to know this, and for that i'm glad they don't listen to these worried boys complaining about not being able to use their 1000 apms and having to think a bit more than their used to.
Nice showing that you have no clue of SCBW or what makes a great RTS-game...
It's not like SCBW is being played for 10 years and has the biggest pro-gaming-scene because it's so bad - right?.... noob.
i dont understand how can you claim that making helion shoot while moving , opposed to current version, where good players already can pretty much shoot and move.. makes micro game easer? it removes any skill requirement tbh
everyone can make helion run away from zerglings, and shoot out of his ass like current phoenix just good players know how to run, stop and shoot without getting raped, hellions is already hard counter to any melee bio unit.. would it be zerglings or zealots.. (hydras too duh , but dif category )
On May 14 2010 03:58 RiOrius wrote: And I'll say it again, because I do believe it's true: if it's easy to micro one control group, the pros will learn to micro a dozen. Let them spend their APM on truly interesting things; don't make them waste it on "move-move-move-hold position-move-move-move".
People keep saying things like this over and over again. "Pros now have the APM to spend it on more interesting things", but they never actually say what these "truly interesting things" are.
I can pretty much guarantee that any example given will be something that pros can already do in both SC1 and SC2. I can't help but wonder if any of you guys have ever seen SC1 played at the high level. Even with high APM requirements, there are still TONS of interesting strategies, maneuvers, and tactics that make the game fun to play. In fact, it was the APM requirements that helped make them fun in the first place, because you knew that it took a lot of effort to pull it off.
Look, the desire to bring back advanced micro isn't about some nostalgic desire to make SC2 a BW clone. The reason why people want micro tricks back is because they are FUN. They are INTERESTING. They are EFFECTIVE. They are SKILLFUL. Everything that SC2 wants in order to be an awesome game exists in these micro tricks. Does Starcraft 2 have interesting micro and strategies? Yes, but it can have even more in addition to that, and that's why we want them to put things like moving shot back in the game.
People keep attacking us as delusional fanboys for wanting features in the game just because SC1 had it, but I think it's the opposite. The delusional fanboys are the people who demand that advanced micro tricks shouldn't be in the game simply because SC1 had them. Whereas the people who want micro tricks in SC2 do so because we have seen with our own eyes how much SC1 benefited from them, and we know that SC2 will benefit from them as well because of how similar it plays to SC1.
No doubt this post will prove inflammatory, but I'm totally fed up with people claiming that all of those individuals campaigning for micro tricks in SC2 are bwar fanboys.
I'm part of the pseudo-casual crowd. I've had beta access since almost the beginning, and I've only racked up 40 games. This is due to a lack of time, but more recently, also a lack of inclination. I haven't really played any game very much for years, but I was really excited about SC2 because of my memories of bwar. And I've realised since playing SC2 that it was the micro that really made the game interesting. Macro is just as skillful, and the multi-tasking abilities that the pros demonstrate is impressive, but for a casual player it's just not that fun to watch or engage in.
This post perfectly highlights how I feel about the game, and it similarly mirrors friends' attitudes that have an even more casual approach to play (those people that haven't picked up a computer game for years, but remember playing SC1 on my computer when we were at Uni). The macro requirements just don't captivate them, whereas micro does. It's exciting, it's interesting, it looks good, and most of all, it's fun.
On May 14 2010 05:35 Archerofaiur wrote: Ok were going to go through the 5 stages of coping that we went though with macro
Denial: Players debate whether their is a problem or not
Anger: Low level fan boys fight with high level fan boys
Bargaining: ArcherofAiur appears and points out that the game can have both (ie MBS AND macro mechanics, current phoenix macro AND muta SC1 micro)
Depression: Both sides fight ArcherofAiur insisting that it should only be their way
Acceptance: Players realize that their needs to be mechanics for all skill levels
I think MBS and Automoning has been replaced pretty well by the new macro-abilities like chrono-boost etc. - but why did Blizzard implement these things? Because the SCBW-players raged like hell because they thought SC2 is gonna be too easy! Same thing now - if the community doesn't react - Blizzard will F up Micro in SC2, so all the ingorant noobs out there - give the ppl caring about SC2 some credit and just respect that there are devoted Fans that want SC2 to be great - they're not stupid SCBW-Fanboys - they just want SC2 to be great!
Back2topic: Can SCBW-Style micro truly be replaced like what they did with MBS and automining? I don't think so. Besides, with smartcasting, there is already less micro in SC2 and atm. it's basically the same micro we see in WC3!
But that's nothing like SCBW, because it doesn't feel fast-paced, you don't feel like your in control, you deon't feel like you can improve in your micro very well, but thats what SCBW was all about!
If I had to describe SCBW in 2 Words, I'd go for fast-paced. And why was it fast-paced? Because of the Micro and that was is the essence of SCBW IMHO - no other RTS felt so fast-paced like SCBW. So why change sth that was the essence of the predecessor - it makes absolutely no sense!
On May 14 2010 03:58 RiOrius wrote: And I'll say it again, because I do believe it's true: if it's easy to micro one control group, the pros will learn to micro a dozen. Let them spend their APM on truly interesting things; don't make them waste it on "move-move-move-hold position-move-move-move".
People keep saying things like this over and over again. "Pros now have the APM to spend it on more interesting things", but they never actually say what these "truly interesting things" are.
I can pretty much guarantee that any example given will be something that pros can already do in both SC1 and SC2. I can't help but wonder if any of you guys have ever seen SC1 played at the high level. Even with high APM requirements, there are still TONS of interesting strategies, maneuvers, and tactics that make the game fun to play. In fact, it was the APM requirements that helped make them fun in the first place, because you knew that it took a lot of effort to pull it off.
Look, the desire to bring back advanced micro isn't about some nostalgic desire to make SC2 a BW clone. The reason why people want micro tricks back is because they are FUN. They are INTERESTING. They are EFFECTIVE. They are SKILLFUL. Everything that SC2 wants in order to be an awesome game exists in these micro tricks. Does Starcraft 2 have interesting micro and strategies? Yes, but it can have even more in addition to that, and that's why we want them to put things like moving shot back in the game.
People keep attacking us as delusional fanboys for wanting features in the game just because SC1 had it, but I think it's the opposite. The delusional fanboys are the people who demand that advanced micro tricks shouldn't be in the game simply because SC1 had them. Whereas the people who want micro tricks in SC2 do so because we have seen with our own eyes how much SC1 benefited from them, and we know that SC2 will benefit from them as well because of how similar it plays to SC1.
No doubt this post will prove inflammatory, but I'm totally fed up with people claiming that all of those individuals campaigning for micro tricks in SC2 are bwar fanboys.
I'm part of the pseudo-casual crowd. I've had beta access since almost the beginning, and I've only racked up 40 games. This is due to a lack of time, but more recently, also a lack of inclination. I haven't really played any game very much for years, but I was really excited about SC2 because of my memories of bwar. And I've realised since playing SC2 that it was the micro that really made the game interesting. Macro is just as skillful, and the multi-tasking abilities that the pros demonstrate is impressive, but for a casual player it's just not that fun to watch or engage in.
This post perfectly highlights how I feel about the game, and it similarly mirrors friends' attitudes that have an even more casual approach to play (those people that haven't picked up a computer game for years, but remember playing SC1 on my computer when we were at Uni). The macro requirements just don't captivate them, whereas micro does. It's exciting, it's interesting, it looks good, and most of all, it's fun.
I think it's worth noting here that I believe that the success of DOTA stems from the fact that you are intensively microing one unit the entire game. Micro = Fun. Macro = satisfying.
On May 13 2010 22:24 See.Blue wrote: Dude fantastic work! Someone with a bnet forums account should post this on there so they have a higher chance of seeing it. Amazing stuff (maybe itll be used for the real TL Pro Mod if Blizz passes)
On May 14 2010 05:35 Archerofaiur wrote: Ok were going to go through the 5 stages of coping that we went though with macro
Denial: Players debate whether their is a problem or not
Anger: Low level fan boys fight with high level fan boys
Bargaining: ArcherofAiur appears and points out that the game can have both (ie MBS AND macro mechanics, current phoenix macro AND muta SC1 micro)
Depression: Both sides fight ArcherofAiur insisting that it should only be their way
Acceptance: Players realize that their needs to be mechanics for all skill levels
I think MBS and Automoning has been replaced pretty well by the new macro-abilities like chrono-boost etc. - but why did Blizzard implement these things? Because the SCBW-players raged like hell because they thought SC2 is gonna be too easy! Same thing now - if the community doesn't react - Blizzard will F up Micro in SC2, so all the ingorant noobs out there - give the ppl caring about SC2 some credit and just respect that there are devoted Fans that want SC2 to be great - they're not stupid SCBW-Fanboys - they just want SC2 to be great!
And do you notice how they kept MBS and Automining.
You can keep phoenix micro as is and still put in high level micro. The game doesnt have to be only a low level game or only a high level game.
Notice how few people complain about MBS and Automining now? Ask your self what would have happened if they removed this "noob feature" when the high level community complained?
On May 14 2010 03:58 RiOrius wrote: And I'll say it again, because I do believe it's true: if it's easy to micro one control group, the pros will learn to micro a dozen. Let them spend their APM on truly interesting things; don't make them waste it on "move-move-move-hold position-move-move-move".
People keep saying things like this over and over again. "Pros now have the APM to spend it on more interesting things", but they never actually say what these "truly interesting things" are.
I can pretty much guarantee that any example given will be something that pros can already do in both SC1 and SC2. I can't help but wonder if any of you guys have ever seen SC1 played at the high level. Even with high APM requirements, there are still TONS of interesting strategies, maneuvers, and tactics that make the game fun to play. In fact, it was the APM requirements that helped make them fun in the first place, because you knew that it took a lot of effort to pull it off.
Look, the desire to bring back advanced micro isn't about some nostalgic desire to make SC2 a BW clone. The reason why people want micro tricks back is because they are FUN. They are INTERESTING. They are EFFECTIVE. They are SKILLFUL. Everything that SC2 wants in order to be an awesome game exists in these micro tricks. Does Starcraft 2 have interesting micro and strategies? Yes, but it can have even more in addition to that, and that's why we want them to put things like moving shot back in the game.
People keep attacking us as delusional fanboys for wanting features in the game just because SC1 had it, but I think it's the opposite. The delusional fanboys are the people who demand that advanced micro tricks shouldn't be in the game simply because SC1 had them. Whereas the people who want micro tricks in SC2 do so because we have seen with our own eyes how much SC1 benefited from them, and we know that SC2 will benefit from them as well because of how similar it plays to SC1.
No doubt this post will prove inflammatory, but I'm totally fed up with people claiming that all of those individuals campaigning for micro tricks in SC2 are bwar fanboys.
I'm part of the pseudo-casual crowd. I've had beta access since almost the beginning, and I've only racked up 40 games. This is due to a lack of time, but more recently, also a lack of inclination. I haven't really played any game very much for years, but I was really excited about SC2 because of my memories of bwar. And I've realised since playing SC2 that it was the micro that really made the game interesting. Macro is just as skillful, and the multi-tasking abilities that the pros demonstrate is impressive, but for a casual player it's just not that fun to watch or engage in.
This post perfectly highlights how I feel about the game, and it similarly mirrors friends' attitudes that have an even more casual approach to play (those people that haven't picked up a computer game for years, but remember playing SC1 on my computer when we were at Uni). The macro requirements just don't captivate them, whereas micro does. It's exciting, it's interesting, it looks good, and most of all, it's fun.
I think it's worth noting here that I believe that the success of DOTA stems from the fact that you are intensively microing one unit the entire game. Micro = Fun. Macro = satisfying.
That's a great point. And clearly both are required to have a sufficient skill ceiling in a high class strategy game, but it's micro that really has the wow factor, particularly for people that are just superficial viewers. I think it was you that posted a match between Bisu and someone else (PvT) where the micro was absolutely godly, and it was just a back and forth match continuously until the T eventually won. I've shown that VOD to a few mates that have never played bwar, and have barely touched a game on a PC or otherwise, and they were still immediately impressed after I explained the basics.
Personally, (and I may be taking liberties here), I think a lot of high class players have been quite tolerant of SC2's shortcomings because it's, well... SC2. Blizzard have a great opportunity to create a game that propels e-sports into the west, but I think they have to be very careful that they understand exactly what made SC1 so successful in the first place. I was chatting to Jamie (Midian) about this actually as I was hoping to have a few games with him, but he just said that he'd given up on SC2 after about a hundred or so games because it just didn't feel like SC, and after I'd played a few more, I completely agreed with him. It wasn't that it isn't the same as bwar, it's more that it just seems like a much more polished version of most other RTSs that are already out there, whereas bwar with its brilliant balance of exciting micro and rewarding macro was completely different.
On May 14 2010 05:35 Archerofaiur wrote: Ok were going to go through the 5 stages of coping that we went though with macro
Denial: Players debate whether their is a problem or not
Anger: Low level fan boys fight with high level fan boys
Bargaining: ArcherofAiur appears and points out that the game can have both (ie MBS AND macro mechanics, current phoenix macro AND muta SC1 micro)
Depression: Both sides fight ArcherofAiur insisting that it should only be their way
Acceptance: Players realize that their needs to be mechanics for all skill levels
I think MBS and Automoning has been replaced pretty well by the new macro-abilities like chrono-boost etc. - but why did Blizzard implement these things? Because the SCBW-players raged like hell because they thought SC2 is gonna be too easy! Same thing now - if the community doesn't react - Blizzard will F up Micro in SC2, so all the ingorant noobs out there - give the ppl caring about SC2 some credit and just respect that there are devoted Fans that want SC2 to be great - they're not stupid SCBW-Fanboys - they just want SC2 to be great!
And do you notice how they kept MBS and Automining.
You can keep phoenix micro as is and still put in high level micro. The game doesnt have to be only a low level game or only a high level game.
Notice how few people complain about MBS and Automining now? Ask your self what would have happened if they removed this "noob feature" when the high level community complained?
We don't complain because of the existence of the macro mechanics, which was the result of us complaining that making units was too easy. Blizzard devised a novel solution to the problem, which they should be applauded for. And if they had not devised this solution, the game would be that much worse of because of it. Indeed, I don't think the level headed high level community complained about the existence of MBS/Automining, rather that these things made the game easier and there needed to be something put in place to make the game harder. This didn't necessarily mean returning to SBS - but that was one of the options obviously.
On May 14 2010 05:45 Archerofaiur wrote: And do you notice how they kept MBS and Automining.
You can keep phoenix micro as is and still put in high level micro. The game doesnt have to be only a low level game or only a high level game.
Notice how few people complain about MBS and Automining now? Ask your self what would have happened if they removed this "noob feature" when the high level community complained?
I'm not sure if Phoenix-micro is really the best solution though. Even simple kiting is more complicated than that, and anything that's simpler than kiting micro is going a bit too far on the easy side to me. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit, and not just spamming right-click.
Remember that Blizzard is adding a Challenge mode specifically for this, so I'm quite sure that newbies don't need things to be THAT simple.
On May 14 2010 05:35 Archerofaiur wrote: Ok were going to go through the 5 stages of coping just like we went though with the macro wars.
Denial: Players debate whether their is a problem or not
Anger: Low level fan boys fight with high level fan boys
Bargaining: ArcherofAiur appears and points out that the game can have both (ie MBS AND macro mechanics, current phoenix macro AND muta SC1 micro)
Depression: Both sides argue with ArcherofAiur insisting that it should only be their way.
Acceptance: Players realize that their needs to be mechanics for all skill levels
Just FYI, the 5 stages of grief is an entirely false system that does not exist. It was made up by one psychiatrist who had no idea what she was talking about and made popular because it was catchy.
On May 14 2010 06:05 Spawkuring wrote: I'm not sure if Phoenix-micro is really the best solution though. Even simple kiting is more complicated than that, and anything that's simpler than kiting micro is going a bit too far on the easy side to me. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit, and not just spamming right-click.
Believe it or not its imporant to have easy tasks the new players can learn how to do and have fun with. Phoenix micro is perfect for that. Statements like "A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit," are baseless. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit that has difficult high end micro mechanics.
Whats missing in this whole debate is the same thing that was missing in the macro debate. Its the realization that you can have a two tiered system
low level mechanics AND high level mechanics. Easy to learn AND hard to master.
On May 14 2010 06:05 Spawkuring wrote: I'm not sure if Phoenix-micro is really the best solution though. Even simple kiting is more complicated than that, and anything that's simpler than kiting micro is going a bit too far on the easy side to me. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit, and not just spamming right-click.
Believe it or not its imporant to have easy tasks the new players can learn how to do and have fun with. Phoenix micro is perfect for that. Statements like "A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit," are baseless. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit that has difficult high end micro mechanics.
Whats missing in this whole debate is the same thing that was missing in the macro debate. Its the realization that you can have a two tiered system
low level mechanics AND high level mechanics. Easy to learn AND hard to master.
but how you balance that when you distrubute different hard to control Units between the races?
besides, it's not like you can't Micro Mutas in SCBW without knowing how to stack them and knowing how to pull off hold-button-micro etc.
You don't need to make Units easier to control - the players themselves will control the Unit in the way they want them to!
On May 14 2010 06:05 Spawkuring wrote: I'm not sure if Phoenix-micro is really the best solution though. Even simple kiting is more complicated than that, and anything that's simpler than kiting micro is going a bit too far on the easy side to me. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit, and not just spamming right-click.
Believe it or not its imporant to have easy tasks the new players can learn how to do and have fun with. Phoenix micro is perfect for that. Statements like "A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit," are baseless. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit that has difficult high end micro mechanics.
Whats missing in this whole debate is the same thing that was missing in the macro debate. Its the realization that you can have a two tiered system
low level mechanics AND high level mechanics. Easy to learn AND hard to master.
but how you balance that when you distrubute different hard to control Units between the races?
Same way you did in SC1. Tell me which was easier? Microing your marines around a lurkers attack or sitting back and watching your lurker attack automatically?
Remember balanced does not mean equal. The final races need to be balanced not the individual mechanics. Blizzard has specifically said they like things like "X beats Y unless Y micros better".
So in this example, Mutas beat phoenix unless phoenix does attack move micro unless mutas do SC1 micro better...
On May 14 2010 06:05 Spawkuring wrote: I'm not sure if Phoenix-micro is really the best solution though. Even simple kiting is more complicated than that, and anything that's simpler than kiting micro is going a bit too far on the easy side to me. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit, and not just spamming right-click.
Believe it or not its imporant to have easy tasks the new players can learn how to do and have fun with. Phoenix micro is perfect for that. Statements like "A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit," are baseless. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit that has difficult high end micro mechanics.
Whats missing in this whole debate is the same thing that was missing in the macro debate. Its the realization that you can have a two tiered system
low level mechanics AND high level mechanics. Easy to learn AND hard to master.
Saying that there should be "tiered micro" is equally baseless though. There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't. The reason why I want things to be equal or greater than kiting is because kiting is very simple micro that even newbies can do. Even newb-friendly games like WoW have players who rarely play games but still know the concepts of kiting and snaring units.
Newbies may not be skilled, but they aren't mental retards either. No need to baby them so much.
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't.
Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto
And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot.
The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it.
Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
On May 14 2010 06:46 Spawkuring wrote: Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
Can you show me a true copper level player who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
On May 14 2010 06:51 Archerofaiur wrote: Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
You misunderstand my point.
Like I said earlier, there will always be a gap between newb and pro. In fact, this applies to every single game ever made. Hardcores will always be better than casual players no matter what. The thing that separates a good competitive game from a bad competitive game is that the good game has a very large skill gap between the newbie and the pro. A pro should handle a game so much better that it makes anybody in the audience go "WOW!"
The question isn't "Can a copper player micro Phoenixes perfectly?" but rather it's "Can a person who has mastered Phoenix micro perform it to such an advanced degree that it can cause an audience to go 'WOW' rather than 'Meh I can do that'."
On May 14 2010 06:51 Archerofaiur wrote: Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
You misunderstand my point.
Like I said earlier, there will always be a gap between newb and pro. In fact, this applies to every single game ever made. Hardcores will always be better than casual players no matter what. The thing that separates a good competitive game from a bad competitive game is that the good game has a very large skill gap between the newbie and the pro. A pro should handle a game so much better that it makes anybody in the audience go "WOW!"
The question isn't "Can a copper player micro Phoenixes perfectly?" but rather it's "Can a person who has mastered Phoenix micro perform it to such an advanced degree that it can cause an audience to go 'WOW' rather than 'Meh I can do that'."
You said phoenix micro was easy to master. Im asking you to back that point up
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't.
Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto
And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot.
The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it.
Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
umm, you click move and the phoenix does everything for you? How is that even possible not to master. The only thing that changes as players get better is the number of move commands, not damage or anything else.
I'm sorry, but your noob friendly idea is complete shit. The units should be useful and good without micro, but situationally better with micro that is engaging, takes practice, and requires multi tasking. SC2 doesnt need training wheel micro to make new players feel better about themselves. It needs units that work so that a low level player can succeed without micro, then begin to add more and more micro in as they improve. No way in hell blizz should deliberately make some units easier to micro just because they can. It isnt micro if it doesnt call your attention away from something else. What you want is automation, and automation is not good for a game meant to be played at a high level.
If you really want noob starcraft 2 so much, why not just make it so that the novice maps all have automated moving shots to make new players feel all warm and fuzzy inside as they play. Worrying about noobs has no place in making decisions that effect competitive and serious gamers. Its like making a shooting game that aims and shoots for you, all you have to do is move and select guns.
On May 14 2010 06:51 Archerofaiur wrote: Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
You misunderstand my point.
Like I said earlier, there will always be a gap between newb and pro. In fact, this applies to every single game ever made. Hardcores will always be better than casual players no matter what. The thing that separates a good competitive game from a bad competitive game is that the good game has a very large skill gap between the newbie and the pro. A pro should handle a game so much better that it makes anybody in the audience go "WOW!"
The question isn't "Can a copper player micro Phoenixes perfectly?" but rather it's "Can a person who has mastered Phoenix micro perform it to such an advanced degree that it can cause an audience to go 'WOW' rather than 'Meh I can do that'."
this.
look at super smash bros. the game would never gotten played in any competive match ever if it wasnt for the super hard to do,effective and cool lookin glitches evrywhere.
a high skill cap lets people go "omgawd did you see that?".
On May 14 2010 06:05 Spawkuring wrote: I'm not sure if Phoenix-micro is really the best solution though. Even simple kiting is more complicated than that, and anything that's simpler than kiting micro is going a bit too far on the easy side to me. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit, and not just spamming right-click.
Believe it or not its imporant to have easy tasks the new players can learn how to do and have fun with. Phoenix micro is perfect for that. Statements like "A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit," are baseless. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit that has difficult high end micro mechanics.
Whats missing in this whole debate is the same thing that was missing in the macro debate. Its the realization that you can have a two tiered system
low level mechanics AND high level mechanics. Easy to learn AND hard to master.
but how you balance that when you distrubute different hard to control Units between the races?
Same way you did in SC1. Tell me which was easier? Microing your marines around a lurkers attack or sitting back and watching your lurker attack automatically?
Remember balanced does not mean equal. The final races need to be balanced not the individual mechanics. Blizzard has specifically said they like things like "X beats Y unless Y micros better".
So in this example, Mutas beat phoenix unless phoenix does attack move micro unless mutas do SC1 micro better...
Ah, now I finally get what you mean! ^^'
But I think the Air-Units all need the attack-move-micro, there will still be lots of ground-units that have different skill-level-demands I guess.... It's just that I'd be dissappointed as a Protoss-player If the Phoenix wouldn't be such an awesome to control unit!
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't.
Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto
And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot.
The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it.
Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
umm, you click move and the phoenix does everything for you? How is that even possible not to master. The only thing that changes as players get better is the number of move commands, not damage or anything else.
I'm sorry, but your noob friendly idea is complete shit. The units should be useful and good without micro, but situationally better with micro that is engaging, takes practice, and requires multi tasking. SC2 doesnt need training wheel micro to make new players feel better about themselves. It needs units that work so that a low level player can succeed without micro, then begin to add more and more micro in as they improve. No way in hell blizz should deliberately make some units easier to micro just because they can. It isnt micro if it doesnt call your attention away from something else. What you want is automation, and automation is not good for a game meant to be played at a high level.
If you really want noob starcraft 2 so much, why not just make it so that the novice maps all have automated moving shots to make new players feel all warm and fuzzy inside as they play. Worrying about noobs has no place in making decisions that effect competitive and serious gamers. Its like making a shooting game that aims and shoots for you, all you have to do is move and select guns.
Wow your like saying the exact same things that we heard at the begining of the MBS wars. But thats fine stick to your guns. lol weve seen your kind before :p
Anyway since none of you want to post any evidence how about i post some for you. Look at this example of phoenix micro which is obviously "easy to master"
On May 14 2010 06:51 Archerofaiur wrote: Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
You misunderstand my point.
Like I said earlier, there will always be a gap between newb and pro. In fact, this applies to every single game ever made. Hardcores will always be better than casual players no matter what. The thing that separates a good competitive game from a bad competitive game is that the good game has a very large skill gap between the newbie and the pro. A pro should handle a game so much better that it makes anybody in the audience go "WOW!"
The question isn't "Can a copper player micro Phoenixes perfectly?" but rather it's "Can a person who has mastered Phoenix micro perform it to such an advanced degree that it can cause an audience to go 'WOW' rather than 'Meh I can do that'."
You said phoenix micro was easy to master. Im asking you to back that point up
Kinda hard to do that considering that most newbs haven't gotten their hands on the game yet and are too busy massing Void Rays
Even so, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that there isn't much depth to a unit that is played on maximum efficiency by spamming right-click. Pros will do it better of course, but the question is "how much better", and I'm skeptical that the answer to that question is "very much".
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't.
Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto
And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot.
The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it.
Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
umm, you click move and the phoenix does everything for you? How is that even possible not to master. The only thing that changes as players get better is the number of move commands, not damage or anything else.
I'm sorry, but your noob friendly idea is complete shit. The units should be useful and good without micro, but situationally better with micro that is engaging, takes practice, and requires multi tasking. SC2 doesnt need training wheel micro to make new players feel better about themselves. It needs units that work so that a low level player can succeed without micro, then begin to add more and more micro in as they improve. No way in hell blizz should deliberately make some units easier to micro just because they can. It isnt micro if it doesnt call your attention away from something else. What you want is automation, and automation is not good for a game meant to be played at a high level.
If you really want noob starcraft 2 so much, why not just make it so that the novice maps all have automated moving shots to make new players feel all warm and fuzzy inside as they play. Worrying about noobs has no place in making decisions that effect competitive and serious gamers. Its like making a shooting game that aims and shoots for you, all you have to do is move and select guns.
Wow your like saying the exact same things that we heard at the begining of the MBS wars. But thats fine stick to your guns. lol weve seen your kind before :p
Anyway since none of you want to post any evidence how about i post some for you. Look at this example of phoenix micro which is obviously "easy to master"
This Vid is a bad example, cuz all Toss had to do is to fly away from the Mutas - there is no need to fly around them n' stuff, because mutas are the Units that will engage you, not the other way round. You can just sit there and w8 in the middle of the Map and if the Mutas try to attack anything from you, catch them on the way over and just fly away from them and kill them in the process.
It's like saying: look how good zergling-micro is by wildly clicking and running in circles around another Unit - it's just silly. ^^'
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't.
Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto
And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot.
The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it.
Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
umm, you click move and the phoenix does everything for you? How is that even possible not to master. The only thing that changes as players get better is the number of move commands, not damage or anything else.
I'm sorry, but your noob friendly idea is complete shit. The units should be useful and good without micro, but situationally better with micro that is engaging, takes practice, and requires multi tasking. SC2 doesnt need training wheel micro to make new players feel better about themselves. It needs units that work so that a low level player can succeed without micro, then begin to add more and more micro in as they improve. No way in hell blizz should deliberately make some units easier to micro just because they can. It isnt micro if it doesnt call your attention away from something else. What you want is automation, and automation is not good for a game meant to be played at a high level.
If you really want noob starcraft 2 so much, why not just make it so that the novice maps all have automated moving shots to make new players feel all warm and fuzzy inside as they play. Worrying about noobs has no place in making decisions that effect competitive and serious gamers. Its like making a shooting game that aims and shoots for you, all you have to do is move and select guns.
Wow your like saying the exact same things that we heard at the begining of the MBS wars. But thats fine stick to your guns. lol weve seen your kind before :p
Anyway since none of you want to post any evidence how about i post some for you. Look at this example of phoenix micro which is obviously "easy to master"
This Vid is a bad example, cuz all Toss had to do is to fly away from the Mutas - there is no need to fly around them n' stuff, because mutas are the Units that will engage you, not the other way round. You can just sit there and w8 in the middle of the Map and if the Mutas try to attack anything from you, catch them on the way over and just fly away from them and kill them in the process.
It's like saying: look how good zergling-micro is by wildly clicking and running in circles around another Unit - it's just silly. ^^'
Im waiting for your counter evidence showing a low level player who has mastered this.
People keep misunderstanding the point of micro, especially making it relative apm-intensive. Yes, tank micro is pretty easy to do. When you're just controlling a tank, move-hold-move-hold-move is very simple and won't take long to master. However, how long can you keep microing your tank against zealots/immortals while keeping up with everything else going on? Are you still spending money? Are you calling down mules? Are you moving the rest of your army into position? Now, I suck with Terran, but whenever I try to reaper harass against a competent player, I can do it effectively because it's not very hard. But soon my minerals are passing a thousand and I've done more damage to myself than I have to my opponent.
The skill that is so vital in RTSs is multitasking. The ability to keep multiple strategies in their head at the same time while microing their units, producing more units, keeping an eye on the minimap, using macro mechanics efficiently, etc are what separates the good people from the great. You should be able to come up with novel strategies, but then you should have to have the mechanics to actually implement it. A lot of this multitasking requires high APM, but high APM is not the goal of the game. It is only a means to the end of multitasking every small detail of your army so that you get the most out of every single thing.
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't.
Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto
And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot.
The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it.
Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
umm, you click move and the phoenix does everything for you? How is that even possible not to master. The only thing that changes as players get better is the number of move commands, not damage or anything else.
I'm sorry, but your noob friendly idea is complete shit. The units should be useful and good without micro, but situationally better with micro that is engaging, takes practice, and requires multi tasking. SC2 doesnt need training wheel micro to make new players feel better about themselves. It needs units that work so that a low level player can succeed without micro, then begin to add more and more micro in as they improve. No way in hell blizz should deliberately make some units easier to micro just because they can. It isnt micro if it doesnt call your attention away from something else. What you want is automation, and automation is not good for a game meant to be played at a high level.
If you really want noob starcraft 2 so much, why not just make it so that the novice maps all have automated moving shots to make new players feel all warm and fuzzy inside as they play. Worrying about noobs has no place in making decisions that effect competitive and serious gamers. Its like making a shooting game that aims and shoots for you, all you have to do is move and select guns.
Wow your like saying the exact same things that we heard at the begining of the MBS wars. But thats fine stick to your guns. lol weve seen your kind before :p
Anyway since none of you want to post any evidence how about i post some for you. Look at this example of phoenix micro which is obviously "easy to master"
This Vid is a bad example, cuz all Toss had to do is to fly away from the Mutas - there is no need to fly around them n' stuff, because mutas are the Units that will engage you, not the other way round. You can just sit there and w8 in the middle of the Map and if the Mutas try to attack anything from you, catch them on the way over and just fly away from them and kill them in the process.
It's like saying: look how good zergling-micro is by wildly clicking and running in circles around another Unit - it's just silly. ^^'
Im waiting for your counter evidence showing a low level player who has mastered this.
But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
You don't have to fly around the Mutas like crazy, you just have to keep your distance! Besides, it's not only about Muta VS Phoenix-Micro, it's about Micro against all Units.
Though I get you opinion about Phoenix-Micro doesn't have to be like Muta-Micro, mainly because Mutas are also able to attack ground...
But what would you recommend doing with the Vikings then?
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't.
Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto
And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot.
The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it.
Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
umm, you click move and the phoenix does everything for you? How is that even possible not to master. The only thing that changes as players get better is the number of move commands, not damage or anything else.
I'm sorry, but your noob friendly idea is complete shit. The units should be useful and good without micro, but situationally better with micro that is engaging, takes practice, and requires multi tasking. SC2 doesnt need training wheel micro to make new players feel better about themselves. It needs units that work so that a low level player can succeed without micro, then begin to add more and more micro in as they improve. No way in hell blizz should deliberately make some units easier to micro just because they can. It isnt micro if it doesnt call your attention away from something else. What you want is automation, and automation is not good for a game meant to be played at a high level.
If you really want noob starcraft 2 so much, why not just make it so that the novice maps all have automated moving shots to make new players feel all warm and fuzzy inside as they play. Worrying about noobs has no place in making decisions that effect competitive and serious gamers. Its like making a shooting game that aims and shoots for you, all you have to do is move and select guns.
Wow your like saying the exact same things that we heard at the begining of the MBS wars. But thats fine stick to your guns. lol weve seen your kind before :p
Anyway since none of you want to post any evidence how about i post some for you. Look at this example of phoenix micro which is obviously "easy to master"
This Vid is a bad example, cuz all Toss had to do is to fly away from the Mutas - there is no need to fly around them n' stuff, because mutas are the Units that will engage you, not the other way round. You can just sit there and w8 in the middle of the Map and if the Mutas try to attack anything from you, catch them on the way over and just fly away from them and kill them in the process.
It's like saying: look how good zergling-micro is by wildly clicking and running in circles around another Unit - it's just silly. ^^'
Why do mutalisks have to engage the phoenixes? A lot of time the mutalisks will be attacking a vulnerable position where the phoenixes will have to come defend. If the phoenixes just fly away, the mutalisks can go back to attacking whatever is vulnerable. The micro comes from mutalisks staying near a vulnerable place so that phoenixes cannot just fly around the map. Therefore, to keep from getting hit, they will have to dance in the 1-range window (3-4] where phoenixes can do damage but receive none. In response, the mutalisks will try to outmaneuver the phoenixes so that they enter their range of attack. Units cannot be analyzed in a vacuum.
On May 14 2010 07:23 kickinhead wrote: But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
Of course its useful. By keeping your phoenix's the correct distance they can kill mutalisks. How is that not useful?
Yes, but it's not like you have to fly around them the way the person in the VoD did. But I guess there is still some Micro with the Phoenix now, so I think your right on this one.
On May 14 2010 07:23 kickinhead wrote: But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
Of course its useful. By keeping your phoenix's the correct distance they can kill mutalisks. How is that not useful?
Yes, but it's not like you have to fly around them the way the person in the VoD did. But I guess there is still some Micro with the Phoenix now, so I think your right on this one.
Thanks
Personally I really like the different types of micro that could be put into Starcraft 2. Not every unit should have muta micro just like not every unit should have maurader micro.
On May 14 2010 07:23 kickinhead wrote: But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
Of course its useful. By keeping your phoenix's the correct distance they can kill mutalisks. How is that not useful?
Yes, but it's not like you have to fly around them the way the person in the VoD did. But I guess there is still some Micro with the Phoenix now, so I think your right on this one.
Thanks
Personally I really like the different types of micro that could be put into Starcraft 2. Not every unit should have muta micro just like not every unit should have maurader micro.
This leaves the question open what to do with Units like Viking or Banshee.
Or has anyone ever thought about how the Carrier-Micro works in SC2? Maybe if you tweak sth there, they can actually be useful when microed correctly. Plz Sluggaslamoo - work your awesome magic on the carrier!
Oh my god I wish this was the real game. Good work.
I'm so tired of people being like "THIS ISNT BW THIS IS SC2 ITS A DIFFERENT GAME" who cares.. if SC2 was like this it would be so much better of a game than it is now. Of course there'd be some things that needed tweaking I'm sure, as there are probably some units that would be way too powerful with no cooldown, but still. If SC2 were more like this and less like it is now in terms of attack cooldowns.. holy crap I'd love it so much more.
On May 14 2010 07:23 kickinhead wrote: But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
Of course its useful. By keeping your phoenix's the correct distance they can kill mutalisks. How is that not useful?
Yes, but it's not like you have to fly around them the way the person in the VoD did. But I guess there is still some Micro with the Phoenix now, so I think your right on this one.
Thanks
Personally I really like the different types of micro that could be put into Starcraft 2. Not every unit should have muta micro just like not every unit should have maurader micro.
Brings us to another issue. Current phoenix micro really would need LAN latency to work good. And with LAN latency i mean real LAN, a few milliseconds worth of delay.
100+ ms is enough to make it hard to maintain the proper distance. Battle.net being random, connections being unstable and prone to packet losses just adds to the problem.
Another Blizzard compromise. In the name of esports? I think not.
On May 14 2010 05:24 Duelist wrote: Microing is hardly something respected anywhere. You could put a monkey or any simple robot or AI micro units 10x faster than any teenage boy ever could dream of. It's a totally useless and uninteresting skill. When i hear people say some players on SC1 were able to beat the very best because of micro tricks, and talk about that as if it was a good thing, makes me shiver. I'm glad though, because it seems SC2 isn't going on the same direction as SC1, but more strategy based. Maybe we'll see good players actually being more rewarded for being smart, fast thinkers and strategists, than robot clickers.
Blizzard seems to know this, and for that i'm glad they don't listen to these worried boys complaining about not being able to use their 1000 apms and having to think a bit more than their used to.
this is a totally pro-troll on star2 forums i wonder whats your team on ShinHan Bank Trolleague
show yourself, we all know you are a korean protrollgamer
On May 14 2010 07:23 kickinhead wrote: But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
Of course its useful. By keeping your phoenix's the correct distance they can kill mutalisks. How is that not useful?
Yes, but it's not like you have to fly around them the way the person in the VoD did. But I guess there is still some Micro with the Phoenix now, so I think your right on this one.
Consider that Phoenixes have a much faster movement speed, and only 1 more range. Then, show me a video of you perfectly microing Phoenixes to not get hit.
On May 14 2010 07:23 kickinhead wrote: But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
Of course its useful. By keeping your phoenix's the correct distance they can kill mutalisks. How is that not useful?
Yes, but it's not like you have to fly around them the way the person in the VoD did. But I guess there is still some Micro with the Phoenix now, so I think your right on this one.
Consider that Phoenixes have a much faster movement speed, and only 1 more range. Then, show me a video of you perfectly microing Phoenixes to not get hit.
On May 14 2010 07:23 kickinhead wrote: But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
Of course its useful. By keeping your phoenix's the correct distance they can kill mutalisks. How is that not useful?
Yes, but it's not like you have to fly around them the way the person in the VoD did. But I guess there is still some Micro with the Phoenix now, so I think your right on this one.
Consider that Phoenixes have a much faster movement speed, and only 1 more range. Then, show me a video of you perfectly microing Phoenixes to not get hit.
It's more difficult than you think ^_^
I've already been converted son. ^^'
I know, I'm just fortifying it to make sure we don't lose you :D And plus, I sort of actually want to see the video XD
On May 14 2010 07:23 kickinhead wrote: But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
Of course its useful. By keeping your phoenix's the correct distance they can kill mutalisks. How is that not useful?
Yes, but it's not like you have to fly around them the way the person in the VoD did. But I guess there is still some Micro with the Phoenix now, so I think your right on this one.
Consider that Phoenixes have a much faster movement speed, and only 1 more range. Then, show me a video of you perfectly microing Phoenixes to not get hit.
It's more difficult than you think ^_^
I've already been converted son. ^^'
I know, I'm just fortifying it to make sure we don't lose you :D And plus, I sort of actually want to see the video XD
I've found the path of light and I'll never again succumb to the entangling roots of evil.
man i wish this was how blizzard patched phoenixs to be instead of how they are now. they basically micro themselves now suddenly they're not nearly my favorite unit any more.
that how i thought it would be but i don't really like the fact that phoenix isnt able to kite w/o receive dmg mb need to mke the range like it is actually
eh it only works against what, zerglings and zealots? and it'll take forever to kill zealots with hellions so basically zerglings... marines & hydras you're going to get shot as you retreat so...
On May 13 2010 22:25 Skvid wrote: Mutalisks would be imbalanced if they stacked because there is no limit on how many units you can have in 1 control group.
Actually there is a limit. It's 255 units to a hotkey, but the only way that would ever happen is if you mass lings. So..
On May 13 2010 22:25 Skvid wrote: Mutalisks would be imbalanced if they stacked because there is no limit on how many units you can have in 1 control group.
Actually there is a limit. It's 255 units to a hotkey, but the only way that would ever happen is if you mass lings. So..
my god, props and /salute to you because you are amazing
/sign this and hope blizzard puts these changes in the game asap (at least for ground units if they won't do it for air units due to stacking issues)
edit: I just had to emphasize how badly I want those changes to be put into the game for ground units. Dear God blizzard if you do this I will worship you.
I'm actually extremely optimistic about SC2 now and hopefully blizzard realizes how much better they could make the game - people with connections let blizzard know how important this is because I am almost certain that they DON'T have a CLUE.
they aren't omni-potent game creators, we need to give them this feedback to help them make the perfect game
wow the game would be soooo much more fun if units worked like this. The tank is great. The hellion may be a little OP, maybe he should have to stop very briefly.
I'm worried though - does anyone think blizz wouldn't implement this because it would really show the disadvantages of not having LAN latency games?
Here is to hoping that the game gets this kind of micro added. Come on blizzard, this is what the game needs! This kind of micro is not only good for esports/skill ceiling, but it is a lot of fun!
I don't understand why they just can't code in a limit on how many air units you can select in 1 group. Seems like a better idea than just saying "nah" to a very crucial concept to game play.
On May 14 2010 15:02 metasonic wrote: wow the game would be soooo much more fun if units worked like this. The tank is great. The hellion may be a little OP, maybe he should have to stop very briefly.
I'm worried though - does anyone think blizz wouldn't implement this because it would really show the disadvantages of not having LAN latency games?
In terms of balance does anyone think that viking micro would solve the problem of broodlords and mass void rays?
You now don't have to mass vikings/marines in order to beat void rays, you can beat like 20 of them with just 3 if you focus all your attention on it, so you can quickly bring them out and if you work really hard at it your still in the game, instead of just instant GG.
Also because of the vikings range, mutas/hydras/corruptors will have to work a lot harder in order to defend broodlords.
Not saying blizzard should implement it, but more just out of curiousity.
I made a post on the Battle Net Beta suggestion forums, because this is honestly amazing OP. Well done. I made sure not to take the credit, and made sure to say it wasn't m who made this.
On May 14 2010 15:57 sluggaslamoo wrote: In terms of balance does anyone think that viking micro would solve the problem of broodlords and mass void rays?
You now don't have to mass vikings/marines in order to beat void rays, you can beat like 20 of them with just 3 if you focus all your attention on it, so you can quickly bring them out and if you work really hard at it your still in the game, instead of just instant GG.
Also because of the vikings range, mutas/hydras/corruptors will have to work a lot harder in order to defend broodlords.
Not saying blizzard should implement it, but more just out of curiousity.
I think Viking-Micro could be a tricky one, because it could just end up being incredibly powerful because of the long range of the Vikings, but I guess that's how it should be, cuz Vikings are supposed to be good Anti-Air, right?
Against Voidrays, Vikings are already very good and you can already defend against much more Voidrays with Vikings sniping VR's and backing up to the Marines if the VR's try to engage and because if the high range, Vikings can already snipe VR's without taking any hits - so better micro wouldn't make it too IMBA I guess.
I think it's definitely worth a try to mess around with Viking-Micro, basically because Vikings VS Vikings are very often seen in TvT and with proper Micro, it would just be much more fun to play.
On May 14 2010 15:57 sluggaslamoo wrote: In terms of balance does anyone think that viking micro would solve the problem of broodlords and mass void rays?
You now don't have to mass vikings/marines in order to beat void rays, you can beat like 20 of them with just 3 if you focus all your attention on it, so you can quickly bring them out and if you work really hard at it your still in the game, instead of just instant GG.
Also because of the vikings range, mutas/hydras/corruptors will have to work a lot harder in order to defend broodlords.
Not saying blizzard should implement it, but more just out of curiousity.
I think they'd probably have to nerf the viking's range if these changes were to be implemented.
In my opinion, the only reason that the viking and the banshee have their ridiculous range in the first place is because they're such unresponsive units. With no moving shot they need massive range to compensate.
I definitely think vikings would be a much better counter to void rays (even when unsupported by marines). But to make it balanced I'd lower their range and boost their speed (so they're slightly faster than void rays). It would be good for balance if vikings would have to get in range of the void rays (even if only for a short period of time), so void rays actually stood a chance against mismicroed vikings.
The only reason vikings are a "counter" to broodlords right now is because they have such ridiculous range. It's not like you put much effort into microing them vs broodlords, other than just keeping them out of range of the opponent's army. That's basically your only concern. Keep the vikings out of range for his anti air, and keep them in proximity of your main army (this is exactly how the valkyrie was used in BW, because it didn't have moving shot and because it behaved so stupidly).
Wraiths, on the other hand, are a really common transition counter against fast guardians nowadays in BW. And I think it's beautiful to watch someone like Flash constantly look for openings, constantly putting pressure, without being restricted to keeping his air units close to his main army at all times. It's alot more entertaining to watch. Because the zerg player has to keep 100% focus the whole time, the wraiths can appear out of any angle at any time and instantly pick off 1 guardian with 2 kiting shots. It's alot more entertaining and alot more suspenseful to watch than SC2-micro, in my opinion. Constant action!
As for banshees, I don't think they're fitting for a game like Starcraft. There shouldn't be any air unit that can 2-shot workers in a game like Starcraft. If my opponent rushes me with a lone air unit, I want micro to actually matter. You should be able to save your drones/probes with micro. And again: the reason I think they're designed the way they're designed (terrible terrible damage), is because of the game mechanics limiting them and limiting micro in general.
Probably why they gave Brood Lords ridiculous hp as well (compare it to guardians hp). Because vikings had ridiculous range. It's a slippery slope once you start balancing a game with inherent restricted freedom.
^ The viking was done ages ago actually as well as the banshee , but it takes for ever to upload so i didn't bother. Managed to take out 15 void rays with just 3 vikings, although I increased its speed. Without the speed increase it made no difference, you died as soon as you tried to move away.
Just imagine the v0.1 phoenix, but with vikings, its basically the same.
I really like the tank vids! I really hope Blizzard will acknowledge these and try to implement some into the game. Some I don't think should be changed, like the way air stacks currently, maybe change how they attack to make it more smooth for moving micro, but the stacking would be a little much I believe. Still, there are some great concepts here very much reminiscent of BW.
^ I'm not sure what you mean by this. Although I'm no guru on carrier micro, I thought that with the interceptor launch upgrade I had reasonably good success with them against a terran bio ball.
Please elaborate, I'm happy to try and get it working if you can justify it. I don't know much about carrier micro so yeah
I just tried this and its fun but its basically the same type of micro for every unit.. a-move click back and click back-stop-click back-stop.. dont need patrol or hold position.. Not bad but at least current phoenix is different than every other unit and that is a good thing.. Some units could use this.. Would be great to have more responsive units..
Carrier should be a bit faster and interceptors should not return to carrier when it turns back..
^ Ah i see. Thanks for the advice, ill look into it.
Yep one of the things I am looking into right now is variance of micro. But at the moment in the early stages, I think we're on the right track. I have to cover all the units first and see what I can do with them on a basic level, starting with BW-esque responsiveness, and then narrowing it down. And then I can get into the nitty gritty and see what other neat things the data-editor has to offer. Right now I'm happy I got tank auto-aim to work, it was one of the weirdest adjustments seeing as its actually "attack while moving", but then not allowing the tank to attack, but it was a break that led to more possibilities.
Even if we couldn't go further than how much its progressed to at the moment. I think its adequate enough for what we want. I can't realistically see perfect BW micro being implemented, and frankly I don't really care that much haha.
Also hold-position seems to work better for me, although it maybe because of the key's position on the keyboard. The other thing with hold-position is that, because it has to be stopped to shoot, it will stop the unit from trying to move and engage and screw up the timing.
Patrol helps me see the path where they are going, but your right, they work the same.
My v0.2 Phoenix, which I've had to upload 3 times grrr -_-, is the same as the current, no stack, but you have to use hold-position to shoot, instead of just moving. So they will face their enemies but won't shoot if you just tell them to move, I consider move different to attack
On May 15 2010 03:20 sluggaslamoo wrote: ^ Ah i see. Thanks for the advice, ill look into it.
Yep one of the things I am looking into right now is variance of micro. But at the moment in the early stages, I think we're on the right track. I have to cover all the units first and see what I can do with them on a basic level, starting with BW-esque responsiveness, and then narrowing it down. And then I can get into the nitty gritty and see what other neat things the data-editor has to offer.
Also hold-position seems to work better for me, although it maybe because of the key's position on the keyboard. The other thing with hold-position is that, because it has to be stopped to shoot, it will stop the unit from trying to move and engage and screw up the timing.
Patrol helps me see the path where they are going, but your right, they work the same.
My v0.2 Phoenix, which I've had to upload 3 times grrr -_-, is the same as the current, no stack, but you have to use hold-position to shoot, instead of just moving. So they will face their enemies but won't shoot if you just tell them to move, I consider move different to attack
Slug why not focus on other units that actually need micro variance instead of proposing changes to one of the only units that actually already does have unique micro variance?
Phoenix micro is currently unique, interesting, challenging and fits with the units lore and role. Lets fix Hellion, tanks, mutalisk, carrier etc... before messing with one of the few units that actually has good micro.
Hehe I'm focusing on a few units at once, stopping for a while, working on some other unit, and then going back to the old one. But I thought it would be nice to see what sort of things I could do to the phoenix. Some people wanted to see the phoenix change they expected before patch 11, which is why I went ahead and did it to see what it would be like.
In all seriousness, I am not making these modifications to prove that one method is better than the other. Some people are getting the impression that I think my version of the phoenix is better than the current version, that's wrong, I think either have their good and bad points. I just want to explore different possibilities.
If you really want changes to certain units done immediately, the map is there for you to download and modify. Right now I just wanna have fun and make my own changes. I'm happy to do requests, but I don't like being told what I should and shouldn't do. That's just mean
Thats actually not bad. I still think their needs to be different degrees of microness (attack automatically, attack when hitting hold etc..) But yah good work.
Now where is that Flying Nexus micro?
Also for the Mothership can I suggest a micro mechanic where the Mothership's three "turrets" shoot on seperate cooldowns so if you have it in the middle of a battle you can fire from all three sides by continually targeting units on alternating sides.
Its worth noting that the Zealot is faster than the tank so if there were 2 or 3 it would catch up. I couldn't kill the immortal with the tank either, but it felt nice to have some control of the tank out of siege mode.
The hellion would die to speedlings just as easily as it does now, so I'm not sure this is that big a change to the hellion. While I don't mind it, I'm not sure it affects the match up significantly at all.
I had trouble with the phoenix, but I did like the banshees and the vikings. Both units felt like they acted correctly as missiles became fire and forget. Very nice.
Muta's were fun, but you need to place a turret and some marines to test it properly. Once you do that you learn 2 things: A) it feels good to have control over the muta (as opposed to issuing suggetions) and B) Turrets are powerful
On May 15 2010 03:45 Archerofaiur wrote: Now where is that Flying Nexus micro?
I think this might answer your question. Ahhhh the memories. Floating nexus that could shoot mothership lasers would be pretty awesome though.
As for the mothership, that was actually very similar to one of the ideas i had but I think it will be a bit too complicated. Ill have a look anyhow and see what I can do.
See look at that! You cant even micro with it effectively.
Are you joking me? Firstly nexus micro would be so ridiculously overpowered its not even funny. With unlimited nexus selection (and, I might add, unlimited nexus' as they take up negative food) this would be completely gamebreaking for T and Z.
I was wondering when somebody would do this just to see how it works in practice.
As for Blizzard... I'm sure that they could do this same thing if they wanted to. All it involves is messing around with the pitch numbers and such, all already in the editor.
Blizzard created the singleplayer campaign with the map editor (minus the on-board Hyperion stuff, obv) It's obvious they just didn't wanna take this direction.
yeah blizzard , implementing micro is haaaaard :p but seriously , after seeing how they made the phoenix controls I totally gave up on the game , I wont even buy it for the custom games now.
The phoenix change was brilliant, that's how Blizzard should have made it, really. I'm also partial to the tank changes, but I dislike the changes to the hellion, because I think that the skill in that unit's micro is proper positioning before firing and adding moving shot doesn't add to that, but does make it way more powerful vs. a lot of units.
I have a question about the viking: is it possible to give it a bit of a spaceship feel for moving and attacking? I'm not sure how the engine deals with acceleration and directions of moving and such, but maybe if the viking has very low deceleration and very low acceleration it would lead to micro where you had to plan your movement beforehand.(example)
This is great work. I really really hope blizzard sees and agrees with this. It might even be worth posting in the SC2 feedback forums to make sure it gets considered. If you dont want to do this I could do it for you with your permission and all credit to you of course.
The Blizzard phoenix fix was to make it pwn almost any number of mutalisks with extreamly simple and built in micro. Your way is far superior because it forces the user to use skill in order to turn a counter into a hard counter.
Mutalisk change is equally great, and to anyone saying that mass stacked air is overpowered, I disagree. If i see someone going mass stacked air I will smile and get really pumped as my high templar warp on to the field ready to do "terrible terrible damage" to 30 stacked mutalisks.
why do you guys want these changes so much? sc2 is a separate game not just starcraft 1 with new units.
in fact, blizzard isnt a dumb organization. they probably know about these things and have known about them since the beginning of starcraft 2. if they thought this was desirable they would do it.
i for one do not think this is necessary or wanted.
I suck at micro, in fact, I suck at SC2, but if Blizz really wants to make this an esport it really needs to consider some of the things the OP is doing here because it makes the action *look* great. Right now a lot of the casts I see are relatively boring, it's just a huge group fighting another huge group with nothing going on. If we could get something more like this in games it would make it so much more fun to watch, if only because it *looks* strategic instead of "set up your armies and let them auto attack".
I think they'd probably have to nerf the viking's range if these changes were to be implemented.
In my opinion, the only reason that the viking and the banshee have their ridiculous range in the first place is because they're such unresponsive units. With no moving shot they need massive range to compensate.
I definitely think vikings would be a much better counter to void rays (even when unsupported by marines). But to make it balanced I'd lower their range and boost their speed (so they're slightly faster than void rays). It would be good for balance if vikings would have to get in range of the void rays (even if only for a short period of time), so void rays actually stood a chance against mismicroed vikings.
The only reason vikings are a "counter" to broodlords right now is because they have such ridiculous range. It's not like you put much effort into microing them vs broodlords, other than just keeping them out of range of the opponent's army. That's basically your only concern. Keep the vikings out of range for his anti air, and keep them in proximity of your main army (this is exactly how the valkyrie was used in BW, because it didn't have moving shot and because it behaved so stupidly).
Wraiths, on the other hand, are a really common transition counter against fast guardians nowadays in BW. And I think it's beautiful to watch someone like Flash constantly look for openings, constantly putting pressure, without being restricted to keeping his air units close to his main army at all times. It's alot more entertaining to watch. Because the zerg player has to keep 100% focus the whole time, the wraiths can appear out of any angle at any time and instantly pick off 1 guardian with 2 kiting shots. It's alot more entertaining and alot more suspenseful to watch than SC2-micro, in my opinion. Constant action!
As for banshees, I don't think they're fitting for a game like Starcraft. There shouldn't be any air unit that can 2-shot workers in a game like Starcraft. If my opponent rushes me with a lone air unit, I want micro to actually matter. You should be able to save your drones/probes with micro. And again: the reason I think they're designed the way they're designed (terrible terrible damage), is because of the game mechanics limiting them and limiting micro in general.
Probably why they gave Brood Lords ridiculous hp as well (compare it to guardians hp). Because vikings had ridiculous range. It's a slippery slope once you start balancing a game with inherent restricted freedom.
to those who think Blizzard barely understands their own game, of course blizzard knows about all of these options. He just edited parameters provided by Blizzard in their own editor. They didn't just make the single player with the editor, THEY MADE THE EDITOR. The parameters are determined by the game designers and coders as options that they would like to be able to tweek easily for each unit. I'm sure they played around with countless combinations and options, and I'm also sure they are well aware of the relationship between controllable parameters in the BW engine and SCII engine. Lalush has it right, it's not that Blizzard doesn't understand how to implement good micro, it's that their game balancing philosophy has lead to what Lalush described.
Wow I just got done watching the VODs. This is definitely something that will really help a lot of people (Personally, my micro sucks, I had no idea I could press Hold position while I move to shoot in most cases)
On May 15 2010 12:35 ramen247 wrote: why do you guys want these changes so much? sc2 is a separate game not just starcraft 1 with new units.
in fact, blizzard isnt a dumb organization. they probably know about these things and have known about them since the beginning of starcraft 2. if they thought this was desirable they would do it.
i for one do not think this is necessary or wanted.
We want these changes so much because they were very essential in SC1. Even though SC2 is a new game, it has to meet the expectations of the fans of the first game.
In fact, Blizzard isn't a dumb organization. If they know that these things would cater the fans of the old game, they would think it would be desirable to put it back in.
The muta micro vid is less than practical. It doesn't show the weaving in and out motion as we seen in bw. If you micro your muta like that, the turrets will rape them hard.
On May 15 2010 12:35 ramen247 wrote: why do you guys want these changes so much? sc2 is a separate game not just starcraft 1 with new units.
in fact, blizzard isnt a dumb organization. they probably know about these things and have known about them since the beginning of starcraft 2. if they thought this was desirable they would do it.
i for one do not think this is necessary or wanted.
The "this is a whole new game" argument barely holds here. You can't say just because it's a new game that units should be less responsive to control. Basically the only reason you could possibly want for units to be less responsive to user commands is if you actively don't want SC2 to grow at a competitive level.
Honestly, of all the changes that SC1 nostalgia has made people ask for, this is the least change-intensive one, and requires the least use of Brood War standards in SC2. It's not like a total revamp of the high ground mechanic or a redesign of half the zerg units--it's a simple numbers tweak, that can be evaluated for balance over the next month.
It's not necessary for Blizzard to sell lots of copies, but it's very much wanted for me.
On May 15 2010 12:35 ramen247 wrote: why do you guys want these changes so much? sc2 is a separate game not just starcraft 1 with new units.
in fact, blizzard isnt a dumb organization. they probably know about these things and have known about them since the beginning of starcraft 2. if they thought this was desirable they would do it.
i for one do not think this is necessary or wanted.
Well I, for one, do not think blizzard did an acceptable job in the creation of their game. No high ground advantage? Overlords losing their detection? gimmick units without a way to effectively use mid game? Lack of originality for zerg? Ontop of the poor choices leading to micro.
I believe this is a step in the right direction for a community-wide accepted pro mod.
On May 15 2010 12:35 ramen247 wrote: why do you guys want these changes so much? sc2 is a separate game not just starcraft 1 with new units.
in fact, blizzard isnt a dumb organization. they probably know about these things and have known about them since the beginning of starcraft 2. if they thought this was desirable they would do it.
i for one do not think this is necessary or wanted.
The "this is a whole new game" argument barely holds here. You can't say just because it's a new game that units should be less responsive to control. Basically the only reason you could possibly want for units to be less responsive to user commands is if you actively don't want SC2 to grow at a competitive level.
Honestly, of all the changes that SC1 nostalgia has made people ask for, this is the least change-intensive one, and requires the least use of Brood War standards in SC2. It's not like a total revamp of the high ground mechanic or a redesign of half the zerg units--it's a simple numbers tweak, that can be evaluated for balance over the next month.
It's not necessary for Blizzard to sell lots of copies, but it's very much wanted for me.
Not only that, but it's important to keep in mind that even though SC2 is a different game, it's not THAT different from SC1.
People keep acting like SC1 and SC2 are completely different games with absolutely no relation to each other, but the truth is that as far as sequels go Starcraft 2 is one of the lesser innovative games out there. This wasn't an accident either, as even Blizzard has admitted that it was a deliberate design decision to keep SC2 similar because SC1 had a solid core game that didn't need any big changes. So while SC2 may be different in some areas, it's still at its core very similar to the original, and thus anything that improved the gameplay in SC1 should be taken into heavy consideration for SC2.
People want micro to improve because we've seen how much micro has improved SC1, and we've played SC2 only to find that micro is lacking. I see no reason why we should refuse to improve SC2 in any way just because SC1 had it. There's nothing wrong with sequels that keep features which make for a better game.
why does ability to micro mean the game will be competitive? why does high ground advantage have to do with anything concerning competitive level of play?
and when has any race's unit combo been "original"? in sc1 it was always those same units as well... regardless of matchup you would probably be using the siege tank mutalisk/ling or zealot goon.
its a different game. in sc1 micro was important because otherwise. unit movement would be very ugly and unrefined, e.g. muta harass without stack. sc2 doesnt need this because it is not heading the same way as sc1. it wont play the same way.
On May 15 2010 15:36 ramen247 wrote: why does ability to micro mean the game will be competitive?
It doesn't. But it puts control in the player's hands over what his units do, which is hard to say is a bad thing.
It's funny that in the old arguments over MBS and automine, the supporters always went back to the phrase "you shouldn't have to struggle with the interface to play the game". Well guess what? Units that are unresponsive and control poorly is exactly that--struggling with the interface.
Personally, I can't see any reasonable argument against this. It's not even a case of debatably useless clicks like automine and MBS could be portrayed as. It's flat out giving the player more ability to dictate what his units do. What could you POSSIBLY say is bad about that?
On May 15 2010 15:36 ramen247 wrote: why does high ground advantage have to do with anything concerning competitive level of play?
Not relevant to this discussion, though admittedly you didn't bring it up.
On May 15 2010 15:36 ramen247 wrote: and when has anything been "original"? in sc1 it was always those same units as well... regardless of matchup you would probably be using the siege tank mutalisk/ling or zealot goon.
its a different game. in sc1 micro was important because otherwise. unit movement would be very ugly and unrefined, e.g. muta harass without stack. sc2 doesnt need this because it is not heading the same way as sc1. it wont play the same way.
Again, just because the game is different, it's ok for units to wait a second to do what I want them to?
On May 15 2010 14:57 TheYango wrote:It's not like a total revamp of the high ground mechanic.
The funny thing is that even with the data editor there's a setting called snapshot, which works the same way as SC1, where the high-ground unit becomes visible when it shoots, and then invisible again. Looking into what you can do with effects or abilities I'm sure there's a very simple way to implement high-ground advantage, its also extremely simple to implement using a trigger. I won't be focusing on it though, but just a fun note to add.
Mutalisks should be play-tested before Blizzard even considers this.
I get the feeling that's why they dropped the idea after saying it would exist. With limitless control groups (only limited by food count), Muta stacking would be monstrous.
But, both sides of the field are only speculating unless actual testing is done.
^ Which is exactly why I've changed my direction on how to go about this now. Because we now know that micro is possible and it is simple to implement for the most part. What's holding some people back now is balance.
First post has been updated to explain what's going to happen from now on
On May 15 2010 12:35 ramen247 wrote: why do you guys want these changes so much? sc2 is a separate game not just starcraft 1 with new units.
in fact, blizzard isnt a dumb organization. they probably know about these things and have known about them since the beginning of starcraft 2. if they thought this was desirable they would do it.
i for one do not think this is necessary or wanted.
I am really getting sick and tired of this 'this is a new game' bullshit in every thread that suggests a change that could ONLY positively affect sc2 yes sc2 is a new game, sure its a good game, WHY NOT make it better? How will these changes hurt exactly? What the fuck is the point of it being difference just for the sake of being brand new? Injecting micro into the game can have absolutely no adverse effects, it will be more fun to play, and absolutely far and away more fun to watch. 'this is a new game' huh? Why does it have to lack aspects of its predecessor that made it so goddamn good just because its new? nonsensical garbage.
On May 15 2010 12:35 ramen247 wrote: why do you guys want these changes so much? sc2 is a separate game not just starcraft 1 with new units.
in fact, blizzard isnt a dumb organization. they probably know about these things and have known about them since the beginning of starcraft 2. if they thought this was desirable they would do it.
i for one do not think this is necessary or wanted.
I am really getting sick and tired of this 'this is a new game' bullshit in every thread that suggests a change that could ONLY positively affect sc2 yes sc2 is a new game, sure its a good game, WHY NOT make it better? How will these changes hurt exactly? What the fuck is the point of it being difference just for the sake of being brand new? Injecting micro into the game can have absolutely no adverse effects, it will be more fun to play, and absolutely far and away more fun to watch. 'this is a new game' huh? Why does it have to lack aspects of its predecessor that made it so goddamn good just because its new? nonsensical garbage.
On May 15 2010 12:35 ramen247 wrote: why do you guys want these changes so much? sc2 is a separate game not just starcraft 1 with new units.
in fact, blizzard isnt a dumb organization. they probably know about these things and have known about them since the beginning of starcraft 2. if they thought this was desirable they would do it.
i for one do not think this is necessary or wanted.
I am really getting sick and tired of this 'this is a new game' bullshit in every thread that suggests a change that could ONLY positively affect sc2 yes sc2 is a new game, sure its a good game, WHY NOT make it better? How will these changes hurt exactly? What the fuck is the point of it being difference just for the sake of being brand new? Injecting micro into the game can have absolutely no adverse effects, it will be more fun to play, and absolutely far and away more fun to watch. 'this is a new game' huh? Why does it have to lack aspects of its predecessor that made it so goddamn good just because its new? nonsensical garbage.
It would be funny if there was a thread stickied that said that anyone who uses "this isn't BW" solely in order to prove a point gets banned. It's a double edged sword anyway, "this is SC2" should prove the point that SC2 should improve on what made SC1 great.
I think I'm going to enjoy using the phrase "this isn't C&C, this is Starcraft >> 2".
We all want starcraft 2 to be a game where the smarter, faster player wins. Adding more micro intensive units will help this, but there has to be a proper balance between macro and micro. I agree that starcraft 1 was awesome because of the quirky maneuvers you could pull off with certain units, but if every unit can be "manipulated" to do more damage with micro then that takes away from proper macro and base management. Changes like these can both help and hurt. Time and testing will tell.
On May 15 2010 18:05 Paperscraps wrote: We all want starcraft 2 to be a game where the smarter, faster player wins. Adding more micro intensive units will help this, but there has to be a proper balance between macro and micro. I agree that starcraft 1 was awesome because of the quirky maneuvers you could pull off with certain units, but if every unit can be "manipulated" to do more damage with micro then that takes away from proper macro and base management. Changes like these can both help and hurt. Time and testing will tell.
you bring up an interesting point, but i gotta disagree with the bolded part. The reason good players in BW are good, is because they can multitask while carrying out their strategy, pulling off tactics (micro and such) and making decisions, all on the fly. Adding the micro in the game wont take away from macro because macro will still overcome micro if a player only focuses on either one of those. It will however raise the skill ceiling of the game, something I dont think anyone is against, while adding in fun stuff to do and awesome stuff to watch. Take for example, mnm micro vs lurkers in BW D-C level players couldnt do it properly without sacrificing some macro and quite a bit of attention, whereas the better players always managed to do it while macroing and doing whatever else they need to, and the spectators got an eyegasm to boot.
^ The funny thing is that in BW you need good micro in the early game in order to support strong early expansions, which allows you to gain more expansions earlier. Macro co-exists with micro.
Forgive me if this has already been said, but I think that one reason why Blizzard will never implement air unit stacking is aesthetic. Blizzard wants the player to see a huge swarm of mutalisks coming out of the fog of war at them. This obviously has a functional component too. Its difficult to impossible to judge whether your opponent's force is engageable if you cannot determine how many mutas you are looking at. For advanced players you may be able to guess based on how long the game has been going on for, how much ground force he has (and to some degree number of wings flapping) etc.
I'm all for the tank micro. Hard counters have removed a huge amount of depth from the game that this type of thing can return without damaging Mr(s) Copper-League's experience. But I don't think that air stacking has a shot at all.
I definitely agree with all that you are saying. My point wasn't made as clear as I want I guess. What I was trying to say is that if you can just get a few units and abuse certain micro behaviors, then the game is swayed to more tactics and less strategy. A good mix of both is needed, where one doesn't dominate the other. I believe blizzard is still trying the find that "sweet spot" between both. I'm all for raising the skill-cap and making the game look spectacular in a "good" players hands. Increased multi-tasking is always a good thing.
I think I know where you are coming from, I am all for depth of strategy too. One thing though is that micro can add to depth of strategy, because now you can have micro and macro oriented builds. For example could you imagine 2 Starport wraith if they behaved like vikings?
Man i still hope starcraft 2 will have all those nice micro features that make BW so fun and hard, im not in love with the current late game of starcraft 2, big battles translating into controling about 4 hotkeys... SC2 made me such a lazy starcaft player.. interesting stuff on that map.. but yeah i really dont see blizz changing theyr game plan...
Viking in about an hour (see, polls do matter ). I'm keeping the vids relatively short from now on. The upload rate is killing me.
Because of the concerns about aesthetics, I tried to see how it goes with slower rotation and acceleration. I received a lot of stick about instant acceleration and rotation (even though it was default lol), so I decided to take it on board and see how it goes. I've also stopped stacking units because of complaints, so I am looking at alternative methods.
Remember just because the micro looks a certain way in one version, doesn't mean I can't change it, its not stuck that way forever.
Please feel free to let me know how you feel about it.
I really think they should implement the Helion one in game at the least because it's a lot more "stiff" when playing it in the real game than in your video. Nice work.
Okay so heres the viking, you can still micro is phoenix v0.1 style, but with the low acceleration/turning I wanted to see how it fares when you rotate aswell. The ranges have been dropped for both units.
This is really awesome stuff. If this means the units become better in their use we shouldn't not want this, we should just want this plus a slight nerf on the unit in damage or something.
The "Lurker Spine" mechanic -Give the Colossi and Hellion "lurker spine" type of attack. -Once the unit attacks, it should hold its position and finish it's attack animation. -The attack is dodgeable by the opponent.
Protecting science vessels from scourges is trivially easy, but the zerg player will keep trying to catch the vessels at an opportune moment and the skill for the terran player is in attending to other tasks while keeping awareness of the vessels. I'm not sure that type of mechanics exists quite yet in starcraft 2. It feels to me as if a lot of the abilities units have aren't of such extreme power that they could have you take heavy losses if you don't pay attention for a moment.
On May 15 2010 20:46 lolaloc wrote: One suggestion:
The "Lurker Spine" mechanic -Give the Colossi and Hellion "lurker spine" type of attack. -Once the unit attacks, it should hold its position and finish it's attack animation. -The attack is dodgeable by the opponent.
That's a good one. So you mean the unit targets the point rather than the unit, so the projectile doesn't follow the unit?
On May 15 2010 22:52 sluggaslamoo wrote: So I've been going through the polls and this was the next most requested unit, so here it is. Seems pretty balanced. Oh and my macro sucked that game
nice.. That got me thinking about mothership.. What if a nexus transformed into a mothership like thing with different abilities..It can lift, land and teleport. So you mine some distant expansion enemy comes, you load probes, lift and teleport if he didnt emp you..
Would be also cool if nexus had more abilities then just chrono like orbital command but I guess that will come in expansions..
Why are you blogging it? For one I dont think your suggestions are "unbalancable". The game would require rebalancing if they were implemented but i dont think thats outside the realm of impossibility.
As for Project Micro, feel free to discuss that in the current thread. The actual combined mod project will be updated and uploaded in the blog until it is at a playable state. You can then create a thread or post here showing your replay if you want to.
I still want the changes to happen, but if someone sees that micro just complete and utterly unbalances the game to an extreme degree (which it might at first), naysayers will scoff at it, and it may lose all credibility. It has to be shown that it can be balance-able from the beginning. People have short attention spans.
Although there will be a lot more changes than just micro. The mods are separated, so if you just want to experiment with the micro part, you just use the micro mod and not the fun mod.
I think the implementation of thes micro mechanics would make the game at least 10x better. The hard counter system is dumb as it is but If there was a way to even out the playing field through micro that'd be perfect. Ex. Lurkers are pretty much hard counter to marines, but marines with micro stand a fighting chance vs lurkers
Edit: oh yea I also whole heartedly belivece that unitanlile thencolleseus shoul have the lurker spine mechanic where it has to finish it's animation before it can move and that is dodgeable. Anything that has that fire power should be able to be dodged ex. Reaver shot, lurker shot and please don't use the this is not bw argument. These mechnaics were what added up to make bw such a success and sc2 would benefit greatly from it
As for Project Micro, feel free to discuss that in the current thread. The actual combined mod project will be updated and uploaded in the blog until it is at a playable state. You can then create a thread or post here showing your replay if you want to.
I still want the changes to happen, but if someone sees that micro just complete and utterly unbalances the game to an extreme degree (which it might at first), naysayers will scoff at it, and it may lose all credibility. It has to be shown that it can be balance-able from the beginning. People have short attention spans.
Although there will be a lot more changes than just micro. The mods are separated, so if you just want to experiment with the micro part, you just use the micro mod and not the fun mod.
Here is my concern (and id really like to hear other TL members and maybe staff opinions on this). The ProMod was a great joke. Lets face it the idea of making a mod to correct everything Blizzard did that we didnt like has been in the back of our heads since 5 min after the announcement of starcraft when we thought "hey blizzard should have done [your idea]!"
But lets take a step back and look at what we really want and need to accomplish. I believe that the mod community that will inevitably develop out of TL needs to be focused on problems that have wide concensus. I think the fun mod is great and i look forward to seeing what creative ideas you have. At the same time I kinda feel you should focus your attention on the micro issue specifically. You could organize high quantity systematic testing of one specific change (say hellion micro). Youve stumbled upon something that resonates with the community. You have access to high quality and high volume play testers. This is an opportunity too good to pass up.
IMHO effort should be put into developing one high quality project mod with a clearly laid out hypothesis. Different members could take on different roles such as data collection and analysis, testing. In the end we could compile the results and write almost a scientific paper of the changes which hopefully could be good enough to be featured on TL. Something that will really be recognized by Blizzard as quality work and not just undeveloped theorycraft. Lets take ESCIENCE to the next level. I can see it now
Addition of Attack Move Mechanics to Hellion Micro By SluggaSlamoo et al.
but this is your project so ultimatly the call is yours. If you wanna focus on making a fun mod ill certainly play it :p
E-Science actually sounds really interesting XD i will definitely have a think about that (no sarcasm intended there ).
Tbh though I think this would require a lot of organisation, I've done a lot of indy projects before and most of them have been completely failures due to lack of commitment. It's not an easy task to do and right now I don't have the time.
The way I see it is that, now that the myth about micro is busted. Its time to look at things differently and see what other changes can be made to make the game more interesting.
Although I'm more of the creative, find a challenge and do it person. Once the goal is completed I lose all motivation, micro in my eyes is done and done. Perfecting it anymore won't increase chances of blizzard implementing it IMHO. Seeing a harmony between micro, gameplay, and balance will IMHO.
new viking is sweet. I always hated the range they had to make up for their super gay slowness. Way sexier this way. Always thought to myself that for being small they shouldn't go so incredibly slow. Their super range seems so unnatural to me. Great job
On May 16 2010 03:01 sluggaslamoo wrote: Tbh though I think this would require a lot of organisation, I've done a lot of indy projects before and most of them have been completely failures due to lack of commitment. It's not an easy task to do and right now I don't have the time.
If you want I could help you write the paper. Im in medical school so ive done my fair share of research papers. Something like
Abstract: Overview of project and what we found
Introduction: What micro was in SC1, What micro is in SC1, purpose of project (to study the effect of....)
Methods: How a mod was constructed to introduce hellion micro, how gamplay was tested and analyzed
Results: Data from play testing, statistical analysis of balance, play tester feedback (poll?)
Conclusion: Why we feel the results justify our suggestion that hellion micro be changed.
On May 16 2010 02:52 Synwave wrote: "IMHO" hahaha I laughed hard at that.
Admitedly im not very humble :p
"If you have the time to tell others what to do, maybe try doing it yourself instead."
I want to but i dont wanna steal Slugs project So im offering to help him with any parts he doesnt want to do.
On May 16 2010 03:01 sluggaslamoo wrote: Perfecting it anymore won't increase chances of blizzard implementing it IMHO.
Ive watched the game develop very very closely. One thing ive noticed is that TL will have wide spread threads about a problem for a long time. Than a high quality article/project will be featured on TL and often (but not always) soon after Blizzard will change the game in that direction.
I dunno, I've seen plenty of 100 page posts on TL which could be explained in a few sentences. I don't want to be one of those people.
I'm not sure this is the right way to go. I want to do things differently. Explaining what we mean has never got us where we really wanted, I think showing what we mean will work much better.
On May 16 2010 03:19 sluggaslamoo wrote: I dunno, I've seen plenty of 100 page posts on TL which could be explained in a few sentences. I don't want to be one of those people.
I'm not sure this is the right way to go. I want to do things differently. Explaining what we mean has never got us where we really wanted, I think showing what we mean will work much better.
If you wanna balance it and write articles, go for it. Ill post up the mod tomorrow. I don't think I have the motivation for it anyways, I wanna do my own thing.
I would love to see some sort of experiment done with the banshee. I think the unit's design demands that it have the same auto lock/strafing mechanic Blizzard gave the phoenix. If you applied the same mechanics as the v0.2 phoenix micro (auto lock, hold position to fire) as well as a speed increase (on par with or slower than the phoenix), reduced range and reduced damage, it would make for a much more entertaining unit. This way, increased attention to banshee micro would make banshee harass that much more interesting while a lack of attention would mean getting owned by anti air. Overall, changes like these just make the game so much more dynamic. Keep up the good work, hopefully it will be noticed.
On May 16 2010 05:17 Frobert wrote: I would love to see some sort of experiment done with the banshee. I think the unit's design demands that it have the same auto lock/strafing mechanic Blizzard gave the phoenix. If you applied the same mechanics as the v0.2 phoenix micro (auto lock, hold position to fire) as well as a speed increase (on par with or slower than the phoenix), reduced range and reduced damage, it would make for a much more entertaining unit. This way, increased attention to banshee micro would make banshee harass that much more interesting while a lack of attention would mean getting owned by anti air. Overall, changes like these just make the game so much more dynamic. Keep up the good work, hopefully it will be noticed.
+1, I think banshee doesn't fot well in hos role actually. As fast as phenix is eccessive IMO, but faster than the actual version is interesting.
On May 16 2010 05:17 Frobert wrote: I would love to see some sort of experiment done with the banshee. I think the unit's design demands that it have the same auto lock/strafing mechanic Blizzard gave the phoenix. If you applied the same mechanics as the v0.2 phoenix micro (auto lock, hold position to fire) as well as a speed increase (on par with or slower than the phoenix), reduced range and reduced damage, it would make for a much more entertaining unit. This way, increased attention to banshee micro would make banshee harass that much more interesting while a lack of attention would mean getting owned by anti air. Overall, changes like these just make the game so much more dynamic. Keep up the good work, hopefully it will be noticed.
+1, I think banshee doesn't fot well in hos role actually. As fast as phenix is eccessive IMO, but faster than the actual version is interesting.
On May 16 2010 05:17 Frobert wrote: I would love to see some sort of experiment done with the banshee. I think the unit's design demands that it have the same auto lock/strafing mechanic Blizzard gave the phoenix. If you applied the same mechanics as the v0.2 phoenix micro (auto lock, hold position to fire) as well as a speed increase (on par with or slower than the phoenix), reduced range and reduced damage, it would make for a much more entertaining unit. This way, increased attention to banshee micro would make banshee harass that much more interesting while a lack of attention would mean getting owned by anti air. Overall, changes like these just make the game so much more dynamic. Keep up the good work, hopefully it will be noticed.
On May 16 2010 09:47 deadalnix wrote: We currently are 8
lol the 8 whiny starcraft fans who think SC2 macro can be improved. Blizzard will listen to us for sure
6 per hour is a pretty descent rate. Advertise it
Where can we advertise it? I mean its kind of funny because the people who care most about this issue are reading this thread right now and still not posting on twitter [turns and looks straight at you].
On May 15 2010 23:28 iounas wrote: nice.. That got me thinking about mothership.. What if a nexus transformed into a mothership like thing with different abilities..It can lift, land and teleport. So you mine some distant expansion enemy comes, you load probes, lift and teleport if he didnt emp you..
Yeah, Mothership could be an upgrade to Nexus, not a unit in itself. It allows the Nexus to transform into a Mothership with all of its abilities. In some ways, this makes a lot of sense actually. How it would affect the game, I have no idea.
On May 17 2010 00:33 deadalnix wrote: The first post should be updated for advertise a little the project and achivements.
He should also link the twitter feed in the OP. That way people can let blizzard know that allot of people care about this issue. Like for instance you the person reading this right now who hasnt signed up for twitter and posted because your two busy posting on TL about all the things you dont like about the game and how blizzard isnt listening to you.
I think you should make the separation radius for air units non-zero so that they drift appart. In that this was the case in SC:BW and is a useful characteristic because manually trying to unstack air units is irritating and keeping them stacked for attacking the way it currently is is too easy.
On May 17 2010 02:26 sluggaslamoo wrote: I think I might try a trigger that lowers the radius when moving, but when stopped the radius returns to normal again.
Also twitter thing updated on first post. Sorry for the wait!
Yeah, great. Unit keep stacked when attacking/moving, but disperses when waiting and doing nothing. This is possible to change the radius depending on the what the unit is doing ?
On May 17 2010 02:26 sluggaslamoo wrote: I think I might try a trigger that lowers the radius when moving, but when stopped the radius returns to normal again.
Also twitter thing updated on first post. Sorry for the wait!
Yeah, great. Unit keep stacked when attacking/moving, but disperses when waiting and doing nothing. This is possible to change the radius depending on the what the unit is doing ?
How man, that's great. Unhoppefully, the map editor don't work properly on my computer :/
Also, have you some idea about the banshee proposition ? It's IMO less impressive and funny that the floating nexus, but way more significant for way to improve the game.
On May 17 2010 00:33 deadalnix wrote: The first post should be updated for advertise a little the project and achivements.
He should also link the twitter feed in the OP. That way people can let blizzard know that allot of people care about this issue. Like for instance you the person reading this right now who hasnt signed up for twitter and posted because your two busy posting on TL about all the things you dont like about the game and how blizzard isnt listening to you.
On May 14 2010 05:24 Duelist wrote: Microing is hardly something respected anywhere. You could put a monkey or any simple robot or AI micro units 10x faster than any teenage boy ever could dream of. It's a totally useless and uninteresting skill. When i hear people say some players on SC1 were able to beat the very best because of micro tricks, and talk about that as if it was a good thing, makes me shiver. I'm glad though, because it seems SC2 isn't going on the same direction as SC1, but more strategy based. Maybe we'll see good players actually being more rewarded for being smart, fast thinkers and strategists, than robot clickers.
Blizzard seems to know this, and for that i'm glad they don't listen to these worried boys complaining about not being able to use their 1000 apms and having to think a bit more than their used to.
A car can go faster than a human so I guess we should just not host any running competitions either then.
A computer can play Chess better than the best human, so I guess we should stop playing chess?
Guys this is embarassing. Look at the recent twitter feeds and see if you can spot whats wrong
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Now tell me, what is more important, a cute little video about Starcraft in 8bit or getting muta micro put back in the game?
YOU WON'T GET AWAY WITH THIS... 8-BIT STARCRAFFFFFT!!!!
*shakes fist
First post has been updated to be battle.net friendly. This thread is starting to get some attention on battle.net and other sites and people seem to getting confused by the difference between 10,000 damage and default.
I should probably also post that the "imbalances" shown in the video can actually be fixed in a fraction of a second. Actually nah, ill let them figure that out for themselves, even if world peace would probably come first.
This is lovely. I wonder why you set weapon backswing to 0? As far as i know all backswing can be canceled by giving another command so with proper micro this will be animation canceled anyway.. Though im not sure if there was any difference at all between hellion's weapon having backswing 3 or 0. lol.
Why do air units turn so slow? it looks wierd and feels like you're not in control when you play.
I'm learning more about the engine as I make the changes. Before when I made the hellion adjustment I duplicated the mutalisk and replace the weapons and models. Now I know how to modify the hellion from scratch to get the same effect, actually its even better than before. Ill post it up in a few days.
A lot of the early adjustments such as those on the map, have lots of redundant changes. Now I'm narrowing it down to just a few things. Removing backswing seemed to make a difference to the responsiveness of the unit to shoot, most likely the turret's turn rate is negating the backswing delay, but ill look into this further.
The turn rate is default, if you want instantaneous turn rate you just have to pull back 180 degrees. Otherwise just change turn rate.
Well unfortunately i don't think the phoenix style banshee thing is possible.
I even tried just changing the phoenix to have a banshee model and it doesn't work, instead the projectiles come out in whatever direction but the banshee retains the same angle.
I think the reason might be that the phoenix model itself has a "turret" bone and the turret object commands it what to do. So basically you could think of the phoenix as a flying turret with an invisible base, the whole model is actually the turret itself which allows it to always face the direction of the target.
Either that or the turret knows exactly which bone to rotate, and each bone has a different id, so swapping turrets don't work.
So i think the only way to do this would be modify the 3d model itself, not sure though.
I think it just damages once in a certain timeframe, you get about 4-5 zerglings each time on the move, but dragging the fire doesn't make any difference I don't think. The default splash is too wide though, the zerglings aren't even touched by the fire and they get damaged, you would probably change this so the damage goes in a thin line.
Then you could micro your zerglings like you would marines against lurkers.
I don't really mind if my mod catches on or not, I'm really making this for my own enjoyment and to play against friends. If blizzard implements this, I would count that as a bonus. BW style micro doesn't need another 5 years to be discovered, we know what it is, we have tried it, it doesn't work. There is other micro though new to SC2, usually I try and see if i can improve on that.
On May 25 2010 02:35 deadalnix wrote: So, no news of the banshee ?
Well I've given up on it for now, the reason is I don't think the model has the capability for acting like the phoenix. I will go back to it some other time, but the fact that even just changing the 3d model of the phoenix to banshee doesn't work means there's probably some lower level functionality going on.
So many terran ones, time for some zerg ones now m(^_^)m
The new broodlord, aka flying reaver. Each broodling requires 10 minerals, press W to train them, you can only queue one at a time but you can stack and fire up to 3 at a time. Broodlings fire at the point not the unit, so you can dodge them.
On May 28 2010 03:32 Madkipz wrote: HOLY FLYING ZERG FUCK XD
very awesome indeed. minor edit; could you release these changes in the downloadable map?
Well now all the changes are in mod files. The reason its taking a while to update is I'm not sure if I want to release the fun mod (now called Korhal's Roar), by that I mean the new broodlord is not in the micro mod.
I don't want people to make any assumptions yet, although Ill probably re-up the micro mod very soon on its own, it won't have some of the stuff that is shown in the vids, its pure BW style micro for units only.
Edit: Okay the mod is updated, doesn't have broodlord or thor though.
EPT
)
![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090630041513/starcraft/images/thumb/6/67/SporeCrawler_SC2_DevGame2.jpg/180px-SporeCrawler_SC2_DevGame2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://pics.blameitonthevoices.com/032010/omg_cat.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.starcraftzone.com/images/info/units/mothership-dark.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.engin.umich.edu/minors/multidisciplinarydesign/faculty/We_Need_You.jpg)
