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On May 04 2010 02:40 LUE.Leoj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:27 condoriano wrote:On May 04 2010 02:18 LUE.Leoj wrote:On May 04 2010 02:09 condoriano wrote:On May 04 2010 02:00 LUE.Leoj wrote:
Yes but you're thinking about making money as in being rich and famous as opposed to not having to work another job and being able to play SC all day. Korean pros are paid to play SC, they (basically) don't have to worry about other expenses as that's taken care of by their team/sponsor. I doubt anyone living in the West could live as an actual SC pro. Unless there's a ton of money or ultra-sponsored teams, it's just considerably more expensive living here, sponsors aren't as willing/serious (yet), and tournaments aren't giving the kind of publicity/cash sponsors want. Rich and famous? I'm not sure what you mean. Progamers are at their prime relatively early, every school kid that was wasting his life on WoW could be playing sc2. I don't see how there's a huge difference resourcewise. There aren't any progamer houses for sc2 yet still there's already a difference in skill. There were no progamer houses for all the people that hopelessly played sc1 in korea trying to win courage, they are just regular kids with same kind of time at their hands as everybody else has at their age (they probably had to do better at school too rofl) Check out this study from 2000 - http://www.uis.unesco.org/ev.php?ID=5378_201&ID2=DO_TOPICKorean children are taught, on average, half as long as children in the US are. In primary school there's "only" a 300 hour difference between them, but in secondary that gap shoots up to 600 hours. I would like a korean to disprove this, someone says koreans got less schoolwork to do than westerners LOL. Okay, lets imagine this was true, are you really making an argument that koreans have so much more spare time because of their school system that it adds up to the superior amounts of practice times allowing them to top every other competition? Come on.. First of all, this simply isn't true, second, people like Dimaga, Brat_OK and White Ra basically have been playing bw for a living. They get their pay. They play as much as they want to. Not to derail this topic further but Dimaga and WhiteRa live in Ukraine, whereas Brat_OK lives in Russia. Compare the cost of living indexes (you can even get nice little definitions on that same page) with the US here - http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jspMy basic argument is that Koreans (and I guess Eastern Europeans in this case) perform better at Zerg (and really at games in general) because, compared to traditional western countries, it is both cheaper to live there and less obligations are imposed upon them. Either way it's not surprising if "Korean" zerg is more advanced since it's essentially an open beta over there. Yeah we've had Gamestop and whatever but every lan center over there has free beta access...and there are a ton of lan centers.
You do realize that most Koreans - who want a life in something other than pro-gaming, that is - go to cram schools, right? From what I've heard, Korean students do more learning in cram schools than actual school. Of course, pro-gamers are probably exempt from this and use their cram school hours to game, instead. But in general it is not the case that Koreans study less than people in the West; if anything, they study more.
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Will someone care to share some of their korean reps that illustrate good korean zergs doing solid korean playstyles?
I'm having trouble with that korean rep site as I am quite illiterate in korean...
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On May 04 2010 02:31 Klamity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:18 LUE.Leoj wrote:On May 04 2010 02:09 condoriano wrote:On May 04 2010 02:00 LUE.Leoj wrote:
Yes but you're thinking about making money as in being rich and famous as opposed to not having to work another job and being able to play SC all day. Korean pros are paid to play SC, they (basically) don't have to worry about other expenses as that's taken care of by their team/sponsor. I doubt anyone living in the West could live as an actual SC pro. Unless there's a ton of money or ultra-sponsored teams, it's just considerably more expensive living here, sponsors aren't as willing/serious (yet), and tournaments aren't giving the kind of publicity/cash sponsors want. Rich and famous? I'm not sure what you mean. Progamers are at their prime relatively early, every school kid that was wasting his life on WoW could be playing sc2. I don't see how there's a huge difference resourcewise. There aren't any progamer houses for sc2 yet still there's already a difference in skill. There were no progamer houses for all the people that hopelessly played sc1 in korea trying to win courage, they are just regular kids with same kind of time at their hands as everybody else has at their age (they probably had to do better at school too rofl) Check out this study from 2000 - http://www.uis.unesco.org/ev.php?ID=5378_201&ID2=DO_TOPICKorean children are taught, on average, half as long as children in the US are. In primary school there's "only" a 300 hour difference between them, but in secondary that gap shoots up to 600 hours. The American education system is inefficient. While it's too harsh to call it terrible, I have trouble thinking of another word that adequately describes it. Unless you actually think it takes 6 years (K-5) to learn basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division - especially at an age where children are most capable. But that's aside from the point. I also have to point to Zerg macro as the reasoning behind this.
I've taught at the highschool and college level in the US and I can tell you that "terrible," is a gross understatement. Our school system is one of the worst in the developed world, by far. It's cash starved due to our outrageous military budget and the massive amount of graft and corruption at the administrative level and it has not been focused on producing smarter students for decades.
That said, I agree this has little to do with how well our zerg players macro.
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I've taught at the highschool and college level in the US and I can tell you that "terrible," is a gross understatement. Our school system is one of the worst in the developed world, by far. It's cash starved due to our outrageous military budget and the massive amount of graft and corruption at the administrative level and it has not been focused on producing smarter students for decades.
That said, I agree this has little to do with how well our zerg players macro.
Well they should start teaching Zerg in elementary school then!
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Not to derail this topic further but Dimaga and WhiteRa live in Ukraine, whereas Brat_OK lives in Russia. Compare the cost of living indexes (you can even get nice little definitions on that same page) with the US here - http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jspMy basic argument is that Koreans (and I guess Eastern Europeans in this case) perform better at Zerg (and really at games in general) because, compared to traditional western countries, it is both cheaper to live there and less obligations are imposed upon them. Either way it's not surprising if "Korean" zerg is more advanced since it's essentially an open beta over there. Yeah we've had Gamestop and whatever but every lan center over there has free beta access...and there are a ton of lan centers.
So who cares about the US specifically? I gave you an example of people that have all the time in the world to play as much as they want, plus Russia has a huge userbase. We don't need the isolated example of a country that "has it hard" financially, which isn't true either. Lastshadow probably played for 25 hours a day, nothing stopped him from becoming better. Can't you find more examples?
So we have Russia and Ukraine, for instance, with a BIGGER possibility for a sc player to achieve "play for a living" status than there was in Korea. This still disproves your point. And remarks you've made about education didn't hold up.
On May 04 2010 02:54 Azarkon wrote:
More money for foreigners when foreigners largely do not get paid a SALARY to play the game? Korean pros don't earn money from just tourneys (though tourney winnings are huge in Korea). They are paid a salary to play the game. It's like a full career.
You're completely wrong, sc players outside Korea did get paid, few examples above illustrate that. Major teams like mYm or RoX had salaries, and those aren't the only ones. Plus prize money from tournaments/WCG. And I'm NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT CHINESE. They basically have their own progaming scene with salaries and everything else. For a korean it's basically impossible to make it into the money, and even the lower tier progamers that get paid make LESS money then top foreigners or chinese.
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I think some (most) of you take this stuff way to serious.
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YES starcraft is a srs business
On May 04 2010 03:39 Nottoway wrote:
I think some (most) of you take this stuff way too serious.
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It makes sense that zerg should win most of the games for various reasons. First, in this game there are hard counters to units, which since zerg can make 14+ units all at the same time with the same production building it allows them to change and mass their hard counter against a unit quicker and in much more abundant numbers. Also if zerg goes mass muta and lets say terran has thors, zerg can just make 2-4 infestors and easily mc the thors while zerglings or roaches kill them and then there is no effective way to defend the muta/ broodlords.
Just alot of if's and variables, but my main point is, with hard counters whoever transitions the fastest and in the largest bulk should win. imo.
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My vote on the whole issue is that korean terrans arent that amazing. They will definately be amzing once the pro players start being more visible in sc2 but right now most of their rts talent is still locked into sc1. Zerg still plays very much like it used to in sc1 and enjoys the greatest benefits from a high apm so culturally thats a big boom to zerg.
On and off note I think korean terrans are a lot more creative than most us/eu terrans theyre really trying hard to make high apm strats work like the whole hellion/ghost post from a few days ago.
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On May 04 2010 03:27 condoriano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:54 Azarkon wrote:
More money for foreigners when foreigners largely do not get paid a SALARY to play the game? Korean pros don't earn money from just tourneys (though tourney winnings are huge in Korea). They are paid a salary to play the game. It's like a full career. You're completely wrong, sc players outside Korea did get paid, few examples above illustrate that. Major teams like mYm or RoX had salaries, and those aren't the only ones. Plus prize money from tournaments/WCG. And I'm NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT CHINESE. They basically have their own progaming scene with salaries and everything else. For a korean it's basically impossible to make it into the money, and even the lower tier progamers that get paid make LESS money then top foreigners or chinese.
MYM and ROX members paid annual salaries to play SC? When was this? Like eight years ago or something? Because AFAIK foreigner teams like Fnatic don't pay their players for SC - they just sponsor them for tournaments & gaming gear. It's not like in Korea where KESPA pays up to full six-digit salaries (comparable to upper middle-class professionals in the US) for top players. WC 3 is a different story.
Tournament money, while relevant, is not enough to support a vibrant pro scene. There are only a few major money tournaments every year and you need to win a good proportion of them to pay your bills as a pro-gamer. WCG pays like, what, ~$10,000 to the grand champion? That's the equivalent of monthly salary for a top Korean pro. There's no way you can make a career out of winning the WCG.
As for the Chinese, I'm not familiar enough with their pro scene to say much but your argument - that LOW tier progamers get paid less monay than TOP foreigners or Chinese - just shows the magnitude of the difference. Top tier pro-Koreans make a lot more money than top foreigners when you consider the NUMBER of people involved. How many A-teamers are there in Korea? Now compare that to the number of career SC players in the foreigner scene, whose income comes solely from their playing the game.
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From a MACRO sense-bear with me.
Korea is pretty much has open beta. There are plenty of threads on TL saying that the quality of players are not very good and its going to get worst when the game is released. Even plat division is full of "noobs." With a large pool of players you would think Korea has it even worst in terms of overall quality with a large discrepancy even within the plat division.
If you take one of your non sc playing friends and make them play the game what race will they pick first ? 90% of the times its going to be Terran and to a lesser extent protoss. The players that follow the scene will gravitate towards zerg thanks to jaedong, savior, july etc (maybe Flash will reverse the trend). As a result GENERALLY in a pool with a lot of players, many classified in a better league then their skills warrant are playing terran and toss getting beat by zergs who in general have a better grasp of the game. Hence it may look like korean zergs own more.
Just watching the replays found in the other thread and some other ones i found online and watching all the tournaments we have on TL every weekend just apm and mechanics wise it does not look very different. Tactics are different I mean WTF BANELING DROPS??? but I think the top NA players can be achieving the same amount of success in Korea.
Finally the perception that koreans are better then NA at SC2 should come to no suprise. Even non partial blizzard programmers trying to balance the game will have an inherent bias to assume koreans are better just from the history of sc1. Even us, as much as we love our NA players and trying to get a great E sport scene will assume, in the absence of any other info that koreans own us.
so in summary:
Give us open servers so we can prove you wrong blizzard!
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On May 04 2010 03:07 zomgzergrush wrote:
Will someone care to share some of their korean reps that illustrate good korean zergs doing solid korean playstyles?
I'm having trouble with that korean rep site as I am quite illiterate in korean...
This is the issue. As popular as the game is, there isn't a strong SC2 community presence that is focusing on bringing strategy ("meta game") development from East to West. But NA/Euro strategies are exported instantly through replays/vods.
Its really noticeable in Beta because of the frequent patching.
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So far I havent been impressed by the games of players from the asian server. But then again I haven't seen to many games. I will hold my judgement until I see them play us.
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Koreans are better than US/EU period just because they play more and are more dedicated. This is just a result of their society which approves of e-sports. You tell the average person in the US you play mass games of sc2 and want to be a progamer, what kind of response do you think you'll elicit? Laughter at best. In a society that fosters e-sports, where dedication to an RTS can possibly bring in a decent amount of money, stardom, and even action with the ladies, it's no wonder that koreans play more and are superior players.
By the way, koreans have school after school i believe.
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On May 04 2010 04:36 Bluerain wrote:
Koreans are better than US/EU period just because they play more and are more dedicated. This is just a result of their society which approves of e-sports. You tell the average person in the US you play mass games of sc2 and want to be a progamer, what kind of response do you think you'll elicit? Laughter at best. In a society that fosters e-sports, where dedication to an RTS can possibly bring in a decent amount of money, stardom, and even action with the ladies, it's no wonder that koreans play more and are superior players.
By the way, koreans have school after school i believe.
I would agree but Koreans have yet to play foreigners so it's not valid to say that they are better at SC 2. Artosis (who lives in Korea) has indicated that while Koreans will likely pull ahead in the long-term if the foreigner scene remains as is, in the short-term foreigners should easily be able to compete with Koreans.
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On May 03 2010 17:41 kickinhead wrote:
It's all about mechanics and macro.
Why is Zerg the by far most played race in Korea by all the good players? Because as Z, you can play standard and solid macro-games and win by having superior Mechanics, not just by cheesing, ruhsing or timing-attacks, which is just the way to play the other 2 races if you want to win.
It surely has nothing to do with Unit-combination or some weird strategies, they are just former SC-Pro's that have extremely good Mechanics.
It's just a difference in playstyles, with solid macrobuilds just being better than cheesey stuff and timing-attacks if you have good mechanics and because this playstyle heavily favours Zerg atm, they choose Zerg. Why do you think ppl like Idra and Artosis are playing Zerg? They hate cheese because they know it's just not a solid build and it requires no skill, you can pretty much toss a coin when you play those builds, with solid BO's that are macro-oriented and are able to counter those builds if you scout right, you'll just always be at an advantage and you can rely on your skill, other than the lack of scouting/stupidity of your opponent.
Why is Zerg better at this playstyle than the other races?
- They are the strongest Macro-race, because they can pump drones so fast and switch to Massing Units if they have to.
- They have the easiest time taking additional expansions and defending them, with queens, decent "Static"-defense that isn't even all that static and incresed speed on the creep..
- They are the best race at defending against cheese with Queens being able to shoot in the Air, being able to switch Unit-compositions faster than any other race, very good scouting options with Overlords and very fast Units which can be used to counterattack and/or defend very fast.
- Also, their Units like Hydra are very versatile and extremely good at defending, especially with additional speed on the creep and they get their observer automatically at T2, without having to go a certain techroute which limits you in the Unit-composition you're able to play.
You are my other half, that is exactly how I feel about Zerg in general. And I always said "damn it's going to be scary when I play koreans" because we all know darn well they know how to micro/macro a lot better on average then us Americans.
But yes queens imo, make zerg so strong it's not even funny.
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On May 04 2010 04:36 Bluerain wrote:
You tell the average person in the US you play mass games of sc2 and want to be a progamer, what kind of response do you think you'll elicit? Laughter at best. In a society that fosters e-sports, where dedication to an RTS can possibly bring in a decent amount of money, stardom, and even action with the ladies, it's no wonder that koreans play more and are superior players.
By the way, koreans have school after school i believe.
Moving to korea!!!
I never tell females I play video games unless I am dating them already lol. Thank god for txting, because before that, I was always 'busy' or doing 'hw' when you know damn well I was playing some sort of video game lol.
RTS aren't cute video games you can get girls into either like WoW, or Smash Bros, it's catered to gamers, competitive ones at that.
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On May 04 2010 04:11 Azarkon wrote:
MYM and ROX members paid annual salaries to play SC? When was this? Like eight years ago or something? Because AFAIK foreigner teams like Fnatic don't pay their players for SC - they just sponsor them for tournaments & gaming gear. It's not like in Korea where KESPA pays up to full six-digit salaries (comparable to upper middle-class professionals in the US) for top players. WC 3 is a different story.
There was no RoX or bw mYm 8 years ago, don't be ridiculous. And no team payed foreigners back then, not the salaries. The only reason players like f91 joined mYm was money, same with many foreigners leaving one team joining another. You can't "argue" with this, it's a fact.
Tournament money, while relevant, is not enough to support a vibrant pro scene. There are only a few major money tournaments every year and you need to win a good proportion of them to pay your bills as a pro-gamer. WCG pays like, what, ~$10,000 to the grand champion? That's the equivalent of monthly salary for a top Korean pro. There's no way you can make a career out of winning the WCG.
You can make 50-100 dollars from weekly tournaments that were and probably still are held on bw, add wcg, add dreamhack and TSL etc. It is irrelevant how much money top progamers make, they are 50-60 out of hundreds of thousands of koreans that tried to get picked up by a proteam. You can't even compare the level of competition in korea and outside of it, it doesn't make any sense. Thus, JUST LIKE I SAID, the chances that you will make money playing bw as a foreigner are infinitely higher than if you were a korean. Low tier pros and B-teamers barely make anything, they wouldn't be able to live off that even in korea. Their only choice is a proteam house where they eat, sleep and practice. But if you live with your parents and not doing anything you might as well not complain about paying the bills. Plus you have a choice here in the US, you can take a year or 10 off and not go to college immediately, meanwhile koreans have to do it.
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When asked about why Zerg is dominant in Asia, Artosis said in his stream yesterday that most zergs go sunken to muta build which he said he doesn't believe is always the best build, but that it is difficult to beat.
If this is true, then most likely once Terran and Protoss get skilled in countering this build, Zerg will no longer be so dominant in Asia.
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I got some interesting writing from Korean SC2 community PlayXP
Title Why US's Z is the weakest and Asia's T is the weakest?
1. Asian T is bad
2. Asia's Z and P is better than T
3. US's T is good
4. US's Z and P is worse than T
Probably it is 1...
제목 왜 도대체 북미는 저그가 젤약하고
왜 도대체 아시아서버는 테란이 젤약할까
1아시아서버의 테란들이 못하는걸까요 아니면
2아시아서버의 저그,토스들이 잘하는 걸까요 아니면
3북미서버의 테란들이 잘하는걸까요 아니면
4북미서버의 저그,토스들이 못하는걸까요
1번이 문제이려나..
...What do u think?
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EPT
