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I'll start off witth his quote from a Bowder interview.
Joystiq: You were saying that the way Korea plays Zerg is completely different than the way we play it here. Why is that?
Dustin Browder: There's really no way to know. It could be a variety of factors. It could be a skill level difference between the regions. In that particular case, that wouldn't be a huge surprise considering the enthusiasm with which that community plays StarCraft in particular, let alone real time strategy games. More likely, it's just a change in the macro game. Like they just are playing with slightly different unit mixes than we're used to playing and the counters do exist, but they're just not getting used in the same way. But we don't know. We don't know. We're just going to have to wait and see how it all shakes out. When I was talking about this with Rob Pardo the other day, he says, "Oh, you won't know if that game's balanced for a year." That doesn't make sense to me. We certainly saw this, throughout Brood War and beyond, that the game would change frequently in the hands of the users.
That's why it's so important for us to keep up with them and be making patches, not only through the beta process, getting it as tight as we can during the beta, but also after we launch, maintaining contact with them, maintaining contact with the product and making sure we know what's going on out there, that we're playing as well, we can see what's happening and be able to make and react to changes as they're required as we go forward. We've been sometimes successful in the past, sometimes not as successful. It's something we obviously want to maintain and keep going with. You certainly see that WoW is keeping up, I think, with pretty frequent content updates and we'd like to do the same thing with StarCraft 2. It's one of the reasons we're excited about the three products as well. It sort of keeps us in the same space with fans for a longer period of time.
Basically, I'm wondering if we're missing something.
I understand Koreans in general are much more skilled (on average) then NA/EU. So please refrain from posting things like "micro/macro" etc etc
I believe the main difference has to be unit combinations, what do YOU think?
Unfortunately I do not know how to type Han Gul, therefor I am unable to locate any VOD's/Replays etc
I'm hoping collectively we can shed some light on this issue and see if the way the Koreans play Zerg, is in fact better then how we play it.
This thread is not meant to be speculative by any means, but together I believe if anything we should be able to decipher the Koreans method of dominating (on their server at least) the other races, from what I hear the win percentage of Zerg is much much higher then 50%
If anyone wants to contribute to the discussion feel free.
VOD's and or replays would be very beneficial.
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Dunno how reliable it is but someone on B.net who claimed to be familiar with the Korean playstyle told me that Korean zergs are all about fast muta into more muta into broodlords into win. Having tried to stop broodlords in a TvZ I can see why if they could get them on a regular basis how they would be near impossilbe to stop in the hands of an expert.
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I wouldn't be surprised if it was down to quite a few people winning games based more on great mechanics than anything else (such as a particular strategy).
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Watch Artosis' stream.
I've only made a couple observations, but Artosis researches burrow and Ventral Sacks each game. He does drops and uses infesters all the time. I remember watching Day9's cast on the collegiate all stars matches in the games where SUGGY was playing Joseki I believe. Day9 saw the infesters and immediate thought "fungal growth". I saw Artosis the other night use infestors to take over the thor, try to kill the medivac, but fail, then kill the thor with the zerglings while it was MC'd.
While Day9 was thinking "oh fungal growth", because of what I saw I thought hey, MC the thor, and he did. I'm not saying or claiming day9's knowledge is obselete or even incomplete, I just think because I've seen certain tactics used in different regions I can see the benefit of using 1 ability over another.
There are a few more things, but I get too sidetracked cause the chat in Artosis' stream is hillarious! Also, I don't claim that all zergs play like this, I mean we've seen IdrA play and he's supposed to be one of the top zergs in Korea.
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So far there is no proof that Korean Zergs are better than other Zergs (not even mechanically). And judging from Artosis' stream and some replays I really doubt that they are significantly stronger. It could be that the Terrans and Protosses are worse, or the Zerg domination is just because of the different styles.
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Neural parasiting thors is standard on all servers, from what I've seen.
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mechanics:
if played well zerg has the best "macro mechanics" in the queen larvae vomit.
if you can constantly macro drones or army (depending on situation) while keeping up with tech switches, upgrades, and not fighting battles you could lose, etc then you will do well as zerg. koreans multitask abilities and game sense are both empirically better than others' and so we have zerg dominating in asia since these virtues are rewarded most with the zerg race. the same is true in china.
and
tactics:
many drops constantly, baneling micro, infestor use, mass expos,.
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On SCTV they were talking about how zerg go heavy spine crawlers for map control and go fast muta for harass, and because zerg have the most vintage (scbw) feel to them, it's an easier transition for people who have already played in pro leagues.
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Example of Korean Zergs --> watch Idra or Artosis play Z. Very solid macro oriented play (Machine also plays similar style, though he is US), usually based on outproducing their opponent rather than cheesing, etc.
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lol main difference is unit combo..
but it really is just superior macro mechanics at this point, the top korean players are all ex-pro(and practice like pros still!) so their macro is already enough to defeat you with the crazy macro fest that is zerg.
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Is it news to people that standard play is called standard play because it has a tendency to work?
I think the reason the roaches got hit so hard with the nerf stick was that it was displacing good macro based play as being the standard build order. Personally, I also find zerg to be the easiest race to macro with; being able to hotkey multiple hatcheries = my dream come true.
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the key to their success are use of infested terrans ofcourse.
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the difference is that last season average korean had like 600 games played in platina while europe had at most 500.
take dimaga for example. He used new strats last zotac and placed second, but you could clearly see that he was totally winging it. How many games do you think he's practiced those strats? 20? 10?
Less?
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It's all about mechanics and macro.
Why is Zerg the by far most played race in Korea by all the good players? Because as Z, you can play standard and solid macro-games and win by having superior Mechanics, not just by cheesing, ruhsing or timing-attacks, which is just the way to play the other 2 races if you want to win.
It surely has nothing to do with Unit-combination or some weird strategies, they are just former SC-Pro's that have extremely good Mechanics.
It's just a difference in playstyles, with solid macrobuilds just being better than cheesey stuff and timing-attacks if you have good mechanics and because this playstyle heavily favours Zerg atm, they choose Zerg. Why do you think ppl like Idra and Artosis are playing Zerg? They hate cheese because they know it's just not a solid build and it requires no skill, you can pretty much toss a coin when you play those builds, with solid BO's that are macro-oriented and are able to counter those builds if you scout right, you'll just always be at an advantage and you can rely on your skill, other than the lack of scouting/stupidity of your opponent.
Why is Zerg better at this playstyle than the other races?
- They are the strongest Macro-race, because they can pump drones so fast and switch to Massing Units if they have to.
- They have the easiest time taking additional expansions and defending them, with queens, decent "Static"-defense that isn't even all that static and incresed speed on the creep..
- They are the best race at defending against cheese with Queens being able to shoot in the Air, being able to switch Unit-compositions faster than any other race, very good scouting options with Overlords and very fast Units which can be used to counterattack and/or defend very fast.
- Also, their Units like Hydra are very versatile and extremely good at defending, especially with additional speed on the creep and they get their observer automatically at T2, without having to go a certain techroute which limits you in the Unit-composition you're able to play.
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Probably koreans are trying to play zerg in a macro game with toss and terran, and getting massively outdroned. You have to apply pressure to zerg ... They are plenty beatable - we've seen it happen in replays.
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I noticed from Korean Z replays a tendency to slightly late expand, as in get the pool up, get a few roaches or lings or maybe get to lair and then expand, whereas in EU servers most Zs go for a variation of 14 pool 15 hatch or 15 pool 16 hatch, etc. From then on, it seemed pretty similar with a more masterful macro.
Oh, and they definitely use spire crawlers way more. Very common to see a wall of them in front of the natural while there is a flourishing zerg community behind with mass drones.
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I haven't seen many Korean replays, but some of their Zerg players seem to use more diverse unit selections. Of the Korean reps that I have seen, there definitely seems to be more baneling usage, and sometimes even ultralisks!
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I personally dont know that much about the difference but I have heard from some fairly reliable sources that zerg is just so strong over on the asia server. I also have really enjoyed watching some korean replays from a pretty major website called ygosu.com. Their sc2 replay section isn't bad and its all koreans so you can see exactly how they play
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in my opinion the asian server Z player are more solid = playing the macro game.
while the asian T/P player may try the same and cant keep up.
i play Z only and love the big macro game too. the magic is to macro so hard and only get as much defense you need to barely hold of early harras and midgame timepush. and every game i dont get presured early or some kind of cheese i didnt scout there is a point where is think: "yeah no harras/attack until now! this game is won!"
now take into account asian Z players great skills/exp = they will be far more better at perdicting just how much they need to hold off while macroing hard.
maybe its also that asian T/P players arent that good/used to harras and strong presure = dominating macro wise is much easier for Z.
ofc thats just a feeling but seeing artosis and idra nearly always playing macro heavy builds im sure im not off by far.
Zira
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Artosis said in his stream tonight that in his opinion zerg has the highest skill ceiling. You take this and play in a region(asian ladders) where the players are capable of so much you're bound to get a lot of good zerg players.
Also I read somwhere on TL that said sc2 zerg was somewhat similar to sc1 zerg in either units(obv lol) or macro or something. I didn't play sc1, but watching a lot of pro matches it seems that's the case. Ling muta is strong in sc1 and is strong in sc2. While sair/reaver isn't possible in sc2 and you have new units like sentries and collosus that you have to work with.
Idunno I think there are a lot of good points in the post by azro above mine as well.
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imo zerg and terran changed roles in SC2 a bit.
In SC1, zerg has to harrass the terran (for example with mutalisk) and expand himself to prevent getting owned by a timing push. In SC2 the terran has to harrass the zerg to prevent getting steamrolled in the lategame by macro zergs.
However, in SC1 the zerg was able to stop the terran even if the harrass didn't work out well (it wasn't very easy tough) but in SC2, the terran is pretty much owned without standing much of a chance if the harrass doesn't work out well.
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pfff korean zergs are nothing compared to some foreigners we got. the great thing about SC2 is the fact that everyone started off at the same time, korea in BW was ahead by like 2-3 years or something but now its all even so koreans are just as good, better and worse then some foreigners. nony, naz, tlo are all people that can play the race zerg and beat people of "korean zerg level" caliber with like np.
they may have a different style then us but that dont mean there better.
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On May 03 2010 20:39 zealing wrote:
pfff korean zergs are nothing compared to some foreigners we got. the great thing about SC2 is the fact that everyone started off at the same time, korea in BW was ahead by like 2-3 years or something but now its all even so koreans are just as good, better and worse then some foreigners. nony, naz, tlo are all people that can play the race zerg and beat people of "korean zerg level" caliber with like np.
they may have a different style then us but that dont mean there better.
This is very misinformed. BW was not released in korea before it was in the USA.
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On May 03 2010 20:58 EnderW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 20:39 zealing wrote:
pfff korean zergs are nothing compared to some foreigners we got. the great thing about SC2 is the fact that everyone started off at the same time, korea in BW was ahead by like 2-3 years or something but now its all even so koreans are just as good, better and worse then some foreigners. nony, naz, tlo are all people that can play the race zerg and beat people of "korean zerg level" caliber with like np.
they may have a different style then us but that dont mean there better. This is very misinformed. BW was not released in korea before it was in the USA.
i didn't say that did i? no i said that koreans were more into SC then we were when it first came out, they had pro leagues/courage and becoming a pro gamer was not uncommon. while in NA if you say i wanna be a pro gamer 99% of the time your going to get smacked upside the head :S
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I realize koreans got very good at sc1 but this is a different game. I am not going to assume the koreans are better than euro or usa at sc2 until it has been shown in tournaments.
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imo europe and usa are still eSport stone age in comparison to korea
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Artosis is streaming right now - v T this game delayed exp, speedlings into hydras and ovie speed.
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Do you guys really think that europe/us players could be equal with korean? Well a few might be able to put up a good fight, but when SC2 is released - more older it gets, bigger domination by Koreans will occur.
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For many years in BW Koreans have seen Jaedong and many other great Zerg progamers doing specific build (Lurker/Mutas) to pressure the opponent and expanding while you're at it, and use Defiler to fend off later attacks and eventually win with macro war/massive drops.
Almost same tactics can be applied in SC2 with Speedlings -> Spine Crawlers to defend -> Banelings/Mutas for pressure while expanding -> Infestor for late game -> Broodlords or Mass Roach/Hydra/Cracklings and few Infestors for ending. I've seen Koreans doing alot of multitasking with different unit composition (which they were used to doing it during BW with Lurker/Muta/Defiler control) and I think this is what sets Koreans from NA/EU players apart.
For example, I've rarely seen NA Zerg players using Burrow and Overlord Drops as much as Koreans did.
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can you hook it up with some more korean zerg reps plz? 
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I been more impressed with dimaga then with korean zergs and idra/artosis tbh...
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On May 03 2010 21:47 Ricjames wrote:
Do you guys really think that europe/us players could be equal with korean? Well a few might be able to put up a good fight, but when SC2 is released - more older it gets, bigger domination by Koreans will occur.
You overestimate Koreans. A lot. If eSports outside Korea stays as small as it currently is then yes, Koreans will dominate. This probably won't be the case though.
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Ye i seen those i dont see how hes better then dimaga lol... serious...
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I don't play zergs for 1v1, but one of my guesses is that Korean Zergs are more aggressive. Every time I play against a zerg its always a FE passive zerg fending off harass or baneling bust.
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On May 03 2010 21:47 Ricjames wrote:
Do you guys really think that europe/us players could be equal with korean? Well a few might be able to put up a good fight, but when SC2 is released - more older it gets, bigger domination by Koreans will occur.
that has got nothing to do with the way things are now (which this thread is about fyi)
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I could see koreans using different strategies such as ovie drop more. That is something I think foreign zergs have overlooked. It is really powerful and way better than nydus, in my opinion. However beyond that, the replays I've seen, there hasn't been much that they do that is particularly good compared to what foreigners do.
I almost want to blame korean lack of ability in p and t, but I haven't seen enough replays to know if that is the case.
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On May 03 2010 22:12 Technique wrote:Ye i seen those i dont see how hes better then dimaga lol... serious...
I couldn't agree with you more. But imo they use a slightly different unit combination.
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On May 03 2010 20:10 bjwithbraces wrote:
Artosis said in his stream tonight that in his opinion zerg has the highest skill ceiling. You take this and play in a region(asian ladders) where the players are capable of so much you're bound to get a lot of good zerg players.
Also I read somwhere on TL that said sc2 zerg was somewhat similar to sc1 zerg in either units(obv lol) or macro or something. I didn't play sc1, but watching a lot of pro matches it seems that's the case. Ling muta is strong in sc1 and is strong in sc2. While sair/reaver isn't possible in sc2 and you have new units like sentries and collosus that you have to work with.
Idunno I think there are a lot of good points in the post by azro above mine as well.
thats because its his race. Artosis has always been pretty biased, still an amazing person and commentator :p
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deleted due to complaints.. sorry.
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this is not a good korean zerg i think.
Pretty sure someone who doesnt even know about creep tumors spreading themselves is going to be someone to watch out for
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I honestly just think they have bad Terrans and Protoss. When I watch replays of Korean Protoss and Terran, they seem noticeably worse than top Terran/Protoss. I really don't see why you guys think that Koreans are genetically better at RTS. The reasons that Koreans were better than everyone else at SC1 are not things that are currently true with SC2. They had tons of financial support, tons of tournaments, tons of...everything. They have nothing right now. Hell, Europe and USA have more SC2 support than they do right now.
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On May 03 2010 23:38 wbz0rn wrote:i dont really have serious suggestion but.. thats what i think why they play different.. : Human Evolutionthey're like half zerg. and i guess the picture is kinda old too.. but still funnay. PS: and pls spare me that racist crap.. its just a joke. 
This is absolutely terrible, and I honestly can't believe anyone would posted this. Just because you say "its a joke lolz dont get all pissed" doesn't negate what this picture is insinuating. Not only is it completely offensive, it also breaks TL.net's #2 commandment.
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How do you know it's not micro/macro?
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On May 03 2010 23:59 ocho wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 23:38 wbz0rn wrote:i dont really have serious suggestion but.. thats what i think why they play different.. : Human Evolutionthey're like half zerg. and i guess the picture is kinda old too.. but still funnay. PS: and pls spare me that racist crap.. its just a joke. This is absolutely terrible, and I honestly can't believe anyone would posted this. Just because you say "its a joke lolz dont get all pissed" doesn't negate what this picture is insinuating. Not only is it completely offensive, it also breaks TL.net's #2 commandment.
I wish I could post a face palm ansi!
Oh well... some players are just too proud to see the caricature!
epeen +18
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On May 04 2010 00:01 pyr0ma5ta wrote:
How do you know it's not micro/macro?
because anyone can macro in sc2 and micro doesnt exist? xd
on a serious note i just think, or actually is pretty sure of that asia is just better than us at eu. in eu zergs lose when they die in rushes but not so often in later game. ppl in asia probably know how to defend rushes better and i think the overall atmosphere over there is to learn the game rather than winning and getting achievements
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On May 03 2010 23:56 Mohdoo wrote:
I honestly just think they have bad Terrans and Protoss.
Tell that to the random korean server toss that made Artosis rage quit last night. lulz. Great game. Come from behind ownage. Artosis so thought he won that and then was like... oh... god... an expo... oh god... collosi... oh god 10 phoenix... *leave game*
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On May 04 2010 00:16 MorroW wrote:
...the overall atmosphere over there is to learn the game rather than winning and getting achievements
That I think hits the nail on the head. Also though, strategy-wise, I heard that korean zergs play a very aggressive early game, I think the canceled hatch --> creep tumor --> spine crawler push strategy that caused all those confusing (to us in the west) balance changes to queen speed and spine crawler attack rate were because of the success rate of those pushes on certain maps.
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Korean T and P is catching up Z right now, and on recent tournament, Z is not greatly ahead of T and P.
This is just a complaint ranking of race on daily base (for fun I guess) and you can see how greatly percentage is changed recently.
Red=Z Green=T Blue=P Purple=None
And it is voting for the weakest race.
http://www.playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/
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I think Koreans, because of StarCraft, have the best multitastking on StarCraft II right now.
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The difference is Koreans have discovered there are actually attacking units other than roaches and hydras.
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i see a lot of korean Zerg doing muta/corrupter harass instead of just pure muta since the corrupters can screw over all anti-air units
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one thing i dare to derive from sen's stream is that asians seem to have grasped the ramifications of SC2 zerg novelties a bit quicker: the baneling duels, (relatively) fast nydus onto the natural cliff on LT for spine crawler fun, the roach-like attack range of a queen, the attack prio system (which makes zergling maths quite important, even for a roach army), banelings vs toss to (also) get rid of sentries that kinda stuff.
however it also seems that they havent given as much thought about the other races yet. they got the force fields down alright. but i see quite a lack of +1 zealots against Z, for example (despite any forge-FEs)
in general id say there's just more people investing more thought into zerg.
but before i go down this slippery slope of racial/cultural profiling, i'll leave it at that 
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When i play on the asia server I run into a lot of muta users... if I go thors they just split their mutas up and treat them like sc1 archons. On the US server even at the top tier they just clump them up and let them die or more often just ignore muta and try to out ground me w/ roach/hydra/infestor which I've been pretty good at dealing with. Muta micro is a pain in the ass to deal with because banes cleave marines so effectively.
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Some things I've noticed from watching Artosis and Idra --
way more drone heavy
tendency to build more than 1 queen per hatch (part of the reason drone-heavy play is possible)
more reliance on brood lords in late game
better infestor use (west is catching up on this since patch 9)
However -- I think the recent change to queens off of creep goes a long way in toning down some of the asia-heavy strats that were allowing zerg to win more often. I feel like a nerf to brood lords will be enough to balance asia out without affecting na/eu much.
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i think zergs on the US also do macro heavy builds...its not just idra and koreans, most zergs play for expos+map control and then build up until they can overwhelm you with some composition of units.
i was playing zerg all weekend with my brother and we decided that your unit composition almost doesn't matter, just get upgrades and stay on top of macroing 3-4 mines and you can't lose. doesnt matter if its roach/hydra/ling or muta/ling or hydra/infestor/roach or anything. the composition does not matter so long as you can attach air, and have some ability to micro out of battles you cant win.
zergs get so much minerals so fast when they are macroing mulitple bases, you need to stay up on your gas and your production and you will overwhelm the other guy regardless of units
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United States22883 Posts
On May 03 2010 15:52 spinesheath wrote:
So far there is no proof that Korean Zergs are better than other Zergs (not even mechanically). And judging from Artosis' stream and some replays I really doubt that they are significantly stronger. It could be that the Terrans and Protosses are worse, or the Zerg domination is just because of the different styles.
Did you see the Tester games or what he said in the latest video?
He won almost purely on early harassment, without even making it to the macro phase. To me, that indicates superior mechanics and multitasking more than strategy or anything else.
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I doubt the koreans are inherently better at this or any other RTS game for that matter.
The top 200 players in StarCraft 1 at the moment (and for quite some time) is probably Korean but there's really better explanations for that then genetics and blabla (the most feasible ones most likely relating to community development and collective learning, then you can probably also relate it to the development of closed economies in the pre-19th century aswell and so on).
Someone really ought to make a paper on it ^^
EDIT: Basically I'm saying there's a reason for why particular groups (or nations) sometimes excel at certain things =)
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On May 03 2010 17:41 kickinhead wrote:
It's all about mechanics and macro.
Why is Zerg better at this playstyle than the other races?
- They are the strongest Macro-race, because they can pump drones so fast and switch to Massing Units if they have to.
- They have the easiest time taking additional expansions and defending them, with queens, decent "Static"-defense that isn't even all that static and incresed speed on the creep..
- They are the best race at defending against cheese with Queens being able to shoot in the Air, being able to switch Unit-compositions faster than any other race, very good scouting options with Overlords and very fast Units which can be used to counterattack and/or defend very fast.
- Also, their Units like Hydra are very versatile and extremely good at defending, especially with additional speed on the creep and they get their observer automatically at T2, without having to go a certain techroute which limits you in the Unit-composition you're able to play.
This. Definitly this.
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If they start winning all the tournaments then I think you have some proof but until that its just pure speculation. I'm sure if the pro-gaming community in Korea discards SC1 for SC2 then they will quickly leave everyone in the dust. Nobody can compete with the type of money they can put into it.
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On May 04 2010 01:31 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 15:52 spinesheath wrote:
So far there is no proof that Korean Zergs are better than other Zergs (not even mechanically). And judging from Artosis' stream and some replays I really doubt that they are significantly stronger. It could be that the Terrans and Protosses are worse, or the Zerg domination is just because of the different styles.
Did you see the Tester games or what he said in the latest video? He won almost purely on early harassment, without even making it to the macro phase. To me, that indicates superior mechanics and multitasking more than strategy or anything else.
No, I didn't see this. Who did he play against?
If a single person wins through early game harassment it says nothing about the skill level of a whole server.
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On May 03 2010 20:39 zealing wrote:
pfff korean zergs are nothing compared to some foreigners we got. the great thing about SC2 is the fact that everyone started off at the same time, korea in BW was ahead by like 2-3 years or something but now its all even so koreans are just as good, better and worse then some foreigners. nony, naz, tlo are all people that can play the race zerg and beat people of "korean zerg level" caliber with like np.
they may have a different style then us but that dont mean there better.
Absolutely clueless post, needs no answer. You are not allowing yourself to think that bw skill and mechanics transition onto sc2.
On May 04 2010 01:47 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
If they start winning all the tournaments then I think you have some proof but until that its just pure speculation. I'm sure if the pro-gaming community in Korea discards SC1 for SC2 then they will quickly leave everyone in the dust. Nobody can compete with the type of money they can put into it.
Arguably there will be more money in this for foreigners, so this is not a point. Even on sc1 you had a better shot at making money being a foreigner rather than korean. It actually proves that money isn't the case AT ALL.
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On May 04 2010 01:53 condoriano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 20:39 zealing wrote:
pfff korean zergs are nothing compared to some foreigners we got. the great thing about SC2 is the fact that everyone started off at the same time, korea in BW was ahead by like 2-3 years or something but now its all even so koreans are just as good, better and worse then some foreigners. nony, naz, tlo are all people that can play the race zerg and beat people of "korean zerg level" caliber with like np.
they may have a different style then us but that dont mean there better. Absolutely clueless post, needs no answer. You are not allowing yourself to think that bw skill and mechanics transition onto sc2. Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 01:47 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
If they start winning all the tournaments then I think you have some proof but until that its just pure speculation. I'm sure if the pro-gaming community in Korea discards SC1 for SC2 then they will quickly leave everyone in the dust. Nobody can compete with the type of money they can put into it. Arguably there will be more money in this for foreigners, so this is not a point. Even on sc1 you had a better shot at making money being a foreigner rather than korean. It actually proves that money isn't the case AT ALL.
Yes but you're thinking about making money as in being rich and famous as opposed to not having to work another job and being able to play SC all day. Korean pros are paid to play SC, they (basically) don't have to worry about other expenses as that's taken care of by their team/sponsor. I doubt anyone living in the West could live as an actual SC pro. Unless there's a ton of money or ultra-sponsored teams, it's just considerably more expensive living here, sponsors aren't as willing/serious (yet), and tournaments aren't giving the kind of publicity/cash sponsors want.
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While I'm fully supportive of every region coming up with their own favored play styles, it's really a shame that in 2010 we can't have a true, global gaming community through one service. It's easy to see why Major League Baseball doesn't establish in Korea/Japan because of distance, but there really is no such monster in Internet gaming. With broadband, my ping to Finland is 190ms, Korea is 200ms. I realize for a game of fast reactions that every millisecond comes into play, but surely this shouldn't be a barrier for practicing and laddering on b.net.
Just reflecting on how sad it is SC2 can't be one game instead of three.
p.s. I know Artosis and Idra spend a lot of time in Korea, and Idra even played for a while in the Kespa events, but I wouldn't classify them as "Korean zergs" or Korean anything when it comes to our SC universe.
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On May 03 2010 15:43 IaniAniaN wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if it was down to quite a few people winning games based more on great mechanics than anything else (such as a particular strategy).
On May 03 2010 16:10 omninmo wrote:
mechanics:
if played well zerg has the best "macro mechanics" in the queen larvae vomit.
On May 03 2010 16:27 teamsolid wrote:
Example of Korean Zergs --> watch Idra or Artosis play Z. Very solid macro oriented play (Machine also plays similar style, though he is US), usually based on outproducing their opponent rather than cheesing, etc.
On May 03 2010 17:01 Terrakin wrote:
but it really is just superior macro mechanics at this point, the top korean players are all ex-pro(and practice like pros still!) so their macro is already enough to defeat you with the crazy macro fest that is zerg.
On May 03 2010 17:41 kickinhead wrote:
It's all about mechanics and macro.
On May 03 2010 17:45 cartoon]x wrote:
Probably koreans are trying to play zerg in a macro game with toss and terran, and getting massively outdroned. You have to apply pressure to zerg ... They are plenty beatable - we've seen it happen in replays.
On May 03 2010 20:02 Azro wrote:
in my opinion the asian server Z player are more solid = playing the macro game.
while the asian T/P player may try the same and cant keep up.
All off the first page, it's surprisingly enough:
MACRO.
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On May 04 2010 02:00 LUE.Leoj wrote:
Yes but you're thinking about making money as in being rich and famous as opposed to not having to work another job and being able to play SC all day. Korean pros are paid to play SC, they (basically) don't have to worry about other expenses as that's taken care of by their team/sponsor. I doubt anyone living in the West could live as an actual SC pro. Unless there's a ton of money or ultra-sponsored teams, it's just considerably more expensive living here, sponsors aren't as willing/serious (yet), and tournaments aren't giving the kind of publicity/cash sponsors want.
Rich and famous? I'm not sure what you mean. Progamers are at their prime relatively early, every school kid that was wasting his life on WoW could be playing sc2. I don't see how there's a huge difference resourcewise. There aren't any progamer houses for sc2 yet still there's already a difference in skill. There were no progamer houses for all the people that hopelessly played sc1 in korea trying to win courage, they are just regular kids with same kind of time at their hands as everybody else has at their age (they probably had to do better at school too rofl)
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On May 03 2010 18:16 likeaboss wrote:
I personally dont know that much about the difference but I have heard from some fairly reliable sources that zerg is just so strong over on the asia server. I also have really enjoyed watching some korean replays from a pretty major website called ygosu.com. Their sc2 replay section isn't bad and its all koreans so you can see exactly how they play
sry to bother you but how can you open the replay files? do you need a special tool or smth?
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Koreans go for macro oriented play. Zerg has a distinct advantage late game right now. In TvZ, one barrack double command is considered standard play, whereas many Americans prefer three barrack push or medivac timing push. In SC1, you get several different timings depending on which build you follow that fast expand up with. In SC2, one barrack double command is more likely to take you straight to late game. Same, but to a lesser extent, with PvZ. Many Korean Protoss users go one gate robo, then take natural expansion.
I can absolutely guarantee the level of play in Korea is much, much higher in general. I am comfortably rank 1 in North America. In Korea, I struggle to make maybe top 20. In North America, I win half my games just scouting and then defending against cheese. In Korea, 9 out of 10 games are standard play, something I'm not used to.
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On May 04 2010 02:09 condoriano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:00 LUE.Leoj wrote:
Yes but you're thinking about making money as in being rich and famous as opposed to not having to work another job and being able to play SC all day. Korean pros are paid to play SC, they (basically) don't have to worry about other expenses as that's taken care of by their team/sponsor. I doubt anyone living in the West could live as an actual SC pro. Unless there's a ton of money or ultra-sponsored teams, it's just considerably more expensive living here, sponsors aren't as willing/serious (yet), and tournaments aren't giving the kind of publicity/cash sponsors want. Rich and famous? I'm not sure what you mean. Progamers are at their prime relatively early, every school kid that was wasting his life on WoW could be playing sc2. I don't see how there's a huge difference resourcewise. There aren't any progamer houses for sc2 yet still there's already a difference in skill. There were no progamer houses for all the people that hopelessly played sc1 in korea trying to win courage, they are just regular kids with same kind of time at their hands as everybody else has at their age (they probably had to do better at school too rofl)
Check out this study from 2000 - http://www.uis.unesco.org/ev.php?ID=5378_201&ID2=DO_TOPIC
Korean children are taught, on average, half as long as children in the US are. In primary school there's "only" a 300 hour difference between them, but in secondary that gap shoots up to 600 hours.
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On May 04 2010 02:18 LUE.Leoj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:09 condoriano wrote:On May 04 2010 02:00 LUE.Leoj wrote:
Yes but you're thinking about making money as in being rich and famous as opposed to not having to work another job and being able to play SC all day. Korean pros are paid to play SC, they (basically) don't have to worry about other expenses as that's taken care of by their team/sponsor. I doubt anyone living in the West could live as an actual SC pro. Unless there's a ton of money or ultra-sponsored teams, it's just considerably more expensive living here, sponsors aren't as willing/serious (yet), and tournaments aren't giving the kind of publicity/cash sponsors want. Rich and famous? I'm not sure what you mean. Progamers are at their prime relatively early, every school kid that was wasting his life on WoW could be playing sc2. I don't see how there's a huge difference resourcewise. There aren't any progamer houses for sc2 yet still there's already a difference in skill. There were no progamer houses for all the people that hopelessly played sc1 in korea trying to win courage, they are just regular kids with same kind of time at their hands as everybody else has at their age (they probably had to do better at school too rofl) Check out this study from 2000 - http://www.uis.unesco.org/ev.php?ID=5378_201&ID2=DO_TOPICKorean children are taught, on average, half as long as children in the US are. In primary school there's "only" a 300 hour difference between them, but in secondary that gap shoots up to 600 hours.
I would like a korean to disprove this, someone says koreans got less schoolwork to do than westerners LOL. Okay, lets imagine this was true, are you really making an argument that koreans have so much more spare time because of their school system that it adds up to the superior amounts of practice times allowing them to top every other competition? Come on..
First of all, this simply isn't true, second, people like Dimaga, Brat_OK and White Ra basically have been playing bw for a living. They get their pay. They play as much as they want to.
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On May 04 2010 02:18 LUE.Leoj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:09 condoriano wrote:On May 04 2010 02:00 LUE.Leoj wrote:
Yes but you're thinking about making money as in being rich and famous as opposed to not having to work another job and being able to play SC all day. Korean pros are paid to play SC, they (basically) don't have to worry about other expenses as that's taken care of by their team/sponsor. I doubt anyone living in the West could live as an actual SC pro. Unless there's a ton of money or ultra-sponsored teams, it's just considerably more expensive living here, sponsors aren't as willing/serious (yet), and tournaments aren't giving the kind of publicity/cash sponsors want. Rich and famous? I'm not sure what you mean. Progamers are at their prime relatively early, every school kid that was wasting his life on WoW could be playing sc2. I don't see how there's a huge difference resourcewise. There aren't any progamer houses for sc2 yet still there's already a difference in skill. There were no progamer houses for all the people that hopelessly played sc1 in korea trying to win courage, they are just regular kids with same kind of time at their hands as everybody else has at their age (they probably had to do better at school too rofl) Check out this study from 2000 - http://www.uis.unesco.org/ev.php?ID=5378_201&ID2=DO_TOPICKorean children are taught, on average, half as long as children in the US are. In primary school there's "only" a 300 hour difference between them, but in secondary that gap shoots up to 600 hours.
Did that study take into account the fact most of our US. school systems are millions in debt and perform very poorly because of this?
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On May 04 2010 02:18 LUE.Leoj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:09 condoriano wrote:On May 04 2010 02:00 LUE.Leoj wrote:
Yes but you're thinking about making money as in being rich and famous as opposed to not having to work another job and being able to play SC all day. Korean pros are paid to play SC, they (basically) don't have to worry about other expenses as that's taken care of by their team/sponsor. I doubt anyone living in the West could live as an actual SC pro. Unless there's a ton of money or ultra-sponsored teams, it's just considerably more expensive living here, sponsors aren't as willing/serious (yet), and tournaments aren't giving the kind of publicity/cash sponsors want. Rich and famous? I'm not sure what you mean. Progamers are at their prime relatively early, every school kid that was wasting his life on WoW could be playing sc2. I don't see how there's a huge difference resourcewise. There aren't any progamer houses for sc2 yet still there's already a difference in skill. There were no progamer houses for all the people that hopelessly played sc1 in korea trying to win courage, they are just regular kids with same kind of time at their hands as everybody else has at their age (they probably had to do better at school too rofl) Check out this study from 2000 - http://www.uis.unesco.org/ev.php?ID=5378_201&ID2=DO_TOPICKorean children are taught, on average, half as long as children in the US are. In primary school there's "only" a 300 hour difference between them, but in secondary that gap shoots up to 600 hours.
The American education system is inefficient. While it's too harsh to call it terrible, I have trouble thinking of another word that adequately describes it. Unless you actually think it takes 6 years (K-5) to learn basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division - especially at an age where children are most capable.
But that's aside from the point. I also have to point to Zerg macro as the reasoning behind this.
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That's contrary to what I've experienced growing up in Korea. We go to a regular day of school from 8 to 3, and we also go to school on Saturdays (just AM classes). What is meant by "statutory teaching hours"?
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Oh wait, does this study add up all the hours all together? So like, 12 year school has 300 more hours than 11 year school? This is laughable, it only adds another year for kids to spend their time playing computer games which further disproves his point.
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On May 04 2010 02:27 condoriano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:18 LUE.Leoj wrote:On May 04 2010 02:09 condoriano wrote:On May 04 2010 02:00 LUE.Leoj wrote:
Yes but you're thinking about making money as in being rich and famous as opposed to not having to work another job and being able to play SC all day. Korean pros are paid to play SC, they (basically) don't have to worry about other expenses as that's taken care of by their team/sponsor. I doubt anyone living in the West could live as an actual SC pro. Unless there's a ton of money or ultra-sponsored teams, it's just considerably more expensive living here, sponsors aren't as willing/serious (yet), and tournaments aren't giving the kind of publicity/cash sponsors want. Rich and famous? I'm not sure what you mean. Progamers are at their prime relatively early, every school kid that was wasting his life on WoW could be playing sc2. I don't see how there's a huge difference resourcewise. There aren't any progamer houses for sc2 yet still there's already a difference in skill. There were no progamer houses for all the people that hopelessly played sc1 in korea trying to win courage, they are just regular kids with same kind of time at their hands as everybody else has at their age (they probably had to do better at school too rofl) Check out this study from 2000 - http://www.uis.unesco.org/ev.php?ID=5378_201&ID2=DO_TOPICKorean children are taught, on average, half as long as children in the US are. In primary school there's "only" a 300 hour difference between them, but in secondary that gap shoots up to 600 hours. I would like a korean to disprove this, someone says koreans got less schoolwork to do than westerners LOL. Okay, lets imagine this was true, are you really making an argument that koreans have so much more spare time because of their school system that it adds up to the superior amounts of practice times allowing them to top every other competition? Come on.. First of all, this simply isn't true, second, people like Dimaga, Brat_OK and White Ra basically have been playing bw for a living. They get their pay. They play as much as they want to.
Not to derail this topic further but Dimaga and WhiteRa live in Ukraine, whereas Brat_OK lives in Russia. Compare the cost of living indexes (you can even get nice little definitions on that same page) with the US here - http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp
My basic argument is that Koreans (and I guess Eastern Europeans in this case) perform better at Zerg (and really at games in general) because, compared to traditional western countries, it is both cheaper to live there and less obligations are imposed upon them.
Either way it's not surprising if "Korean" zerg is more advanced since it's essentially an open beta over there. Yeah we've had Gamestop and whatever but every lan center over there has free beta access...and there are a ton of lan centers.
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Has anyone seen players consistently use overlords with speed and drop to baneling 'bomb' probe/scv lines, would seem to be a pretty effective way of clearing out a lot of workers easily and fast in my experience.
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On May 04 2010 01:53 condoriano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 20:39 zealing wrote:
pfff korean zergs are nothing compared to some foreigners we got. the great thing about SC2 is the fact that everyone started off at the same time, korea in BW was ahead by like 2-3 years or something but now its all even so koreans are just as good, better and worse then some foreigners. nony, naz, tlo are all people that can play the race zerg and beat people of "korean zerg level" caliber with like np.
they may have a different style then us but that dont mean there better. Absolutely clueless post, needs no answer. You are not allowing yourself to think that bw skill and mechanics transition onto sc2. Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 01:47 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
If they start winning all the tournaments then I think you have some proof but until that its just pure speculation. I'm sure if the pro-gaming community in Korea discards SC1 for SC2 then they will quickly leave everyone in the dust. Nobody can compete with the type of money they can put into it. Arguably there will be more money in this for foreigners, so this is not a point. Even on sc1 you had a better shot at making money being a foreigner rather than korean. It actually proves that money isn't the case AT ALL.
More money for foreigners when foreigners largely do not get paid a SALARY to play the game? Korean pros don't earn money from just tourneys (though tourney winnings are huge in Korea). They are paid a salary to play the game. It's like a full career.
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On May 04 2010 01:45 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 17:41 kickinhead wrote:
It's all about mechanics and macro.
Why is Zerg better at this playstyle than the other races?
- They are the strongest Macro-race, because they can pump drones so fast and switch to Massing Units if they have to.
- They have the easiest time taking additional expansions and defending them, with queens, decent "Static"-defense that isn't even all that static and incresed speed on the creep..
- They are the best race at defending against cheese with Queens being able to shoot in the Air, being able to switch Unit-compositions faster than any other race, very good scouting options with Overlords and very fast Units which can be used to counterattack and/or defend very fast.
- Also, their Units like Hydra are very versatile and extremely good at defending, especially with additional speed on the creep and they get their observer automatically at T2, without having to go a certain techroute which limits you in the Unit-composition you're able to play. This. Definitly this.
The problem with this statement is that even though the queen can shoot air, cheesy air rush strategies give zerg issues because a queen can't take on any air unit (aside from phoenix/viking) 1v1. Aside from the queen, z have no T1 unit that can deal with any air unlike other races.
Overseers also cost the same as an observer and are prereq'd by lair. Costs aren't that far off.
That said, I do agree with the rest of the points.
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On May 04 2010 02:18 chung wrote:
Koreans go for macro oriented play. Zerg has a distinct advantage late game right now. In TvZ, one barrack double command is considered standard play, whereas many Americans prefer three barrack push or medivac timing push. In SC1, you get several different timings depending on which build you follow that fast expand up with. In SC2, one barrack double command is more likely to take you straight to late game. Same, but to a lesser extent, with PvZ. Many Korean Protoss users go one gate robo, then take natural expansion.
Well if this is true, I guess there we have the reason for zerg dominance on the Asia servers: Zergs can get into midgame without facing a lot of pressure. That alone grants zerg a decent advantage. Even if the pressure doesn't go that well, forcing the zerg to make combat units is essential. If the first attack comes after the zerg expansion has kicked in it is a lost game.
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On May 04 2010 02:40 LUE.Leoj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:27 condoriano wrote:On May 04 2010 02:18 LUE.Leoj wrote:On May 04 2010 02:09 condoriano wrote:On May 04 2010 02:00 LUE.Leoj wrote:
Yes but you're thinking about making money as in being rich and famous as opposed to not having to work another job and being able to play SC all day. Korean pros are paid to play SC, they (basically) don't have to worry about other expenses as that's taken care of by their team/sponsor. I doubt anyone living in the West could live as an actual SC pro. Unless there's a ton of money or ultra-sponsored teams, it's just considerably more expensive living here, sponsors aren't as willing/serious (yet), and tournaments aren't giving the kind of publicity/cash sponsors want. Rich and famous? I'm not sure what you mean. Progamers are at their prime relatively early, every school kid that was wasting his life on WoW could be playing sc2. I don't see how there's a huge difference resourcewise. There aren't any progamer houses for sc2 yet still there's already a difference in skill. There were no progamer houses for all the people that hopelessly played sc1 in korea trying to win courage, they are just regular kids with same kind of time at their hands as everybody else has at their age (they probably had to do better at school too rofl) Check out this study from 2000 - http://www.uis.unesco.org/ev.php?ID=5378_201&ID2=DO_TOPICKorean children are taught, on average, half as long as children in the US are. In primary school there's "only" a 300 hour difference between them, but in secondary that gap shoots up to 600 hours. I would like a korean to disprove this, someone says koreans got less schoolwork to do than westerners LOL. Okay, lets imagine this was true, are you really making an argument that koreans have so much more spare time because of their school system that it adds up to the superior amounts of practice times allowing them to top every other competition? Come on.. First of all, this simply isn't true, second, people like Dimaga, Brat_OK and White Ra basically have been playing bw for a living. They get their pay. They play as much as they want to. Not to derail this topic further but Dimaga and WhiteRa live in Ukraine, whereas Brat_OK lives in Russia. Compare the cost of living indexes (you can even get nice little definitions on that same page) with the US here - http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jspMy basic argument is that Koreans (and I guess Eastern Europeans in this case) perform better at Zerg (and really at games in general) because, compared to traditional western countries, it is both cheaper to live there and less obligations are imposed upon them. Either way it's not surprising if "Korean" zerg is more advanced since it's essentially an open beta over there. Yeah we've had Gamestop and whatever but every lan center over there has free beta access...and there are a ton of lan centers.
You do realize that most Koreans - who want a life in something other than pro-gaming, that is - go to cram schools, right? From what I've heard, Korean students do more learning in cram schools than actual school. Of course, pro-gamers are probably exempt from this and use their cram school hours to game, instead. But in general it is not the case that Koreans study less than people in the West; if anything, they study more.
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Will someone care to share some of their korean reps that illustrate good korean zergs doing solid korean playstyles?
I'm having trouble with that korean rep site as I am quite illiterate in korean...
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On May 04 2010 02:31 Klamity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:18 LUE.Leoj wrote:On May 04 2010 02:09 condoriano wrote:On May 04 2010 02:00 LUE.Leoj wrote:
Yes but you're thinking about making money as in being rich and famous as opposed to not having to work another job and being able to play SC all day. Korean pros are paid to play SC, they (basically) don't have to worry about other expenses as that's taken care of by their team/sponsor. I doubt anyone living in the West could live as an actual SC pro. Unless there's a ton of money or ultra-sponsored teams, it's just considerably more expensive living here, sponsors aren't as willing/serious (yet), and tournaments aren't giving the kind of publicity/cash sponsors want. Rich and famous? I'm not sure what you mean. Progamers are at their prime relatively early, every school kid that was wasting his life on WoW could be playing sc2. I don't see how there's a huge difference resourcewise. There aren't any progamer houses for sc2 yet still there's already a difference in skill. There were no progamer houses for all the people that hopelessly played sc1 in korea trying to win courage, they are just regular kids with same kind of time at their hands as everybody else has at their age (they probably had to do better at school too rofl) Check out this study from 2000 - http://www.uis.unesco.org/ev.php?ID=5378_201&ID2=DO_TOPICKorean children are taught, on average, half as long as children in the US are. In primary school there's "only" a 300 hour difference between them, but in secondary that gap shoots up to 600 hours. The American education system is inefficient. While it's too harsh to call it terrible, I have trouble thinking of another word that adequately describes it. Unless you actually think it takes 6 years (K-5) to learn basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division - especially at an age where children are most capable. But that's aside from the point. I also have to point to Zerg macro as the reasoning behind this.
I've taught at the highschool and college level in the US and I can tell you that "terrible," is a gross understatement. Our school system is one of the worst in the developed world, by far. It's cash starved due to our outrageous military budget and the massive amount of graft and corruption at the administrative level and it has not been focused on producing smarter students for decades.
That said, I agree this has little to do with how well our zerg players macro.
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I've taught at the highschool and college level in the US and I can tell you that "terrible," is a gross understatement. Our school system is one of the worst in the developed world, by far. It's cash starved due to our outrageous military budget and the massive amount of graft and corruption at the administrative level and it has not been focused on producing smarter students for decades.
That said, I agree this has little to do with how well our zerg players macro.
Well they should start teaching Zerg in elementary school then!
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Not to derail this topic further but Dimaga and WhiteRa live in Ukraine, whereas Brat_OK lives in Russia. Compare the cost of living indexes (you can even get nice little definitions on that same page) with the US here - http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jspMy basic argument is that Koreans (and I guess Eastern Europeans in this case) perform better at Zerg (and really at games in general) because, compared to traditional western countries, it is both cheaper to live there and less obligations are imposed upon them. Either way it's not surprising if "Korean" zerg is more advanced since it's essentially an open beta over there. Yeah we've had Gamestop and whatever but every lan center over there has free beta access...and there are a ton of lan centers.
So who cares about the US specifically? I gave you an example of people that have all the time in the world to play as much as they want, plus Russia has a huge userbase. We don't need the isolated example of a country that "has it hard" financially, which isn't true either. Lastshadow probably played for 25 hours a day, nothing stopped him from becoming better. Can't you find more examples?
So we have Russia and Ukraine, for instance, with a BIGGER possibility for a sc player to achieve "play for a living" status than there was in Korea. This still disproves your point. And remarks you've made about education didn't hold up.
On May 04 2010 02:54 Azarkon wrote:
More money for foreigners when foreigners largely do not get paid a SALARY to play the game? Korean pros don't earn money from just tourneys (though tourney winnings are huge in Korea). They are paid a salary to play the game. It's like a full career.
You're completely wrong, sc players outside Korea did get paid, few examples above illustrate that. Major teams like mYm or RoX had salaries, and those aren't the only ones. Plus prize money from tournaments/WCG. And I'm NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT CHINESE. They basically have their own progaming scene with salaries and everything else. For a korean it's basically impossible to make it into the money, and even the lower tier progamers that get paid make LESS money then top foreigners or chinese.
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I think some (most) of you take this stuff way to serious.
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YES starcraft is a srs business
On May 04 2010 03:39 Nottoway wrote:
I think some (most) of you take this stuff way too serious.
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It makes sense that zerg should win most of the games for various reasons. First, in this game there are hard counters to units, which since zerg can make 14+ units all at the same time with the same production building it allows them to change and mass their hard counter against a unit quicker and in much more abundant numbers. Also if zerg goes mass muta and lets say terran has thors, zerg can just make 2-4 infestors and easily mc the thors while zerglings or roaches kill them and then there is no effective way to defend the muta/ broodlords.
Just alot of if's and variables, but my main point is, with hard counters whoever transitions the fastest and in the largest bulk should win. imo.
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My vote on the whole issue is that korean terrans arent that amazing. They will definately be amzing once the pro players start being more visible in sc2 but right now most of their rts talent is still locked into sc1. Zerg still plays very much like it used to in sc1 and enjoys the greatest benefits from a high apm so culturally thats a big boom to zerg.
On and off note I think korean terrans are a lot more creative than most us/eu terrans theyre really trying hard to make high apm strats work like the whole hellion/ghost post from a few days ago.
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On May 04 2010 03:27 condoriano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:54 Azarkon wrote:
More money for foreigners when foreigners largely do not get paid a SALARY to play the game? Korean pros don't earn money from just tourneys (though tourney winnings are huge in Korea). They are paid a salary to play the game. It's like a full career. You're completely wrong, sc players outside Korea did get paid, few examples above illustrate that. Major teams like mYm or RoX had salaries, and those aren't the only ones. Plus prize money from tournaments/WCG. And I'm NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT CHINESE. They basically have their own progaming scene with salaries and everything else. For a korean it's basically impossible to make it into the money, and even the lower tier progamers that get paid make LESS money then top foreigners or chinese.
MYM and ROX members paid annual salaries to play SC? When was this? Like eight years ago or something? Because AFAIK foreigner teams like Fnatic don't pay their players for SC - they just sponsor them for tournaments & gaming gear. It's not like in Korea where KESPA pays up to full six-digit salaries (comparable to upper middle-class professionals in the US) for top players. WC 3 is a different story.
Tournament money, while relevant, is not enough to support a vibrant pro scene. There are only a few major money tournaments every year and you need to win a good proportion of them to pay your bills as a pro-gamer. WCG pays like, what, ~$10,000 to the grand champion? That's the equivalent of monthly salary for a top Korean pro. There's no way you can make a career out of winning the WCG.
As for the Chinese, I'm not familiar enough with their pro scene to say much but your argument - that LOW tier progamers get paid less monay than TOP foreigners or Chinese - just shows the magnitude of the difference. Top tier pro-Koreans make a lot more money than top foreigners when you consider the NUMBER of people involved. How many A-teamers are there in Korea? Now compare that to the number of career SC players in the foreigner scene, whose income comes solely from their playing the game.
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From a MACRO sense-bear with me.
Korea is pretty much has open beta. There are plenty of threads on TL saying that the quality of players are not very good and its going to get worst when the game is released. Even plat division is full of "noobs." With a large pool of players you would think Korea has it even worst in terms of overall quality with a large discrepancy even within the plat division.
If you take one of your non sc playing friends and make them play the game what race will they pick first ? 90% of the times its going to be Terran and to a lesser extent protoss. The players that follow the scene will gravitate towards zerg thanks to jaedong, savior, july etc (maybe Flash will reverse the trend). As a result GENERALLY in a pool with a lot of players, many classified in a better league then their skills warrant are playing terran and toss getting beat by zergs who in general have a better grasp of the game. Hence it may look like korean zergs own more.
Just watching the replays found in the other thread and some other ones i found online and watching all the tournaments we have on TL every weekend just apm and mechanics wise it does not look very different. Tactics are different I mean WTF BANELING DROPS??? but I think the top NA players can be achieving the same amount of success in Korea.
Finally the perception that koreans are better then NA at SC2 should come to no suprise. Even non partial blizzard programmers trying to balance the game will have an inherent bias to assume koreans are better just from the history of sc1. Even us, as much as we love our NA players and trying to get a great E sport scene will assume, in the absence of any other info that koreans own us.
so in summary:
Give us open servers so we can prove you wrong blizzard!
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On May 04 2010 03:07 zomgzergrush wrote:
Will someone care to share some of their korean reps that illustrate good korean zergs doing solid korean playstyles?
I'm having trouble with that korean rep site as I am quite illiterate in korean...
This is the issue. As popular as the game is, there isn't a strong SC2 community presence that is focusing on bringing strategy ("meta game") development from East to West. But NA/Euro strategies are exported instantly through replays/vods.
Its really noticeable in Beta because of the frequent patching.
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So far I havent been impressed by the games of players from the asian server. But then again I haven't seen to many games. I will hold my judgement until I see them play us.
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Koreans are better than US/EU period just because they play more and are more dedicated. This is just a result of their society which approves of e-sports. You tell the average person in the US you play mass games of sc2 and want to be a progamer, what kind of response do you think you'll elicit? Laughter at best. In a society that fosters e-sports, where dedication to an RTS can possibly bring in a decent amount of money, stardom, and even action with the ladies, it's no wonder that koreans play more and are superior players.
By the way, koreans have school after school i believe.
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On May 04 2010 04:36 Bluerain wrote:
Koreans are better than US/EU period just because they play more and are more dedicated. This is just a result of their society which approves of e-sports. You tell the average person in the US you play mass games of sc2 and want to be a progamer, what kind of response do you think you'll elicit? Laughter at best. In a society that fosters e-sports, where dedication to an RTS can possibly bring in a decent amount of money, stardom, and even action with the ladies, it's no wonder that koreans play more and are superior players.
By the way, koreans have school after school i believe.
I would agree but Koreans have yet to play foreigners so it's not valid to say that they are better at SC 2. Artosis (who lives in Korea) has indicated that while Koreans will likely pull ahead in the long-term if the foreigner scene remains as is, in the short-term foreigners should easily be able to compete with Koreans.
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On May 03 2010 17:41 kickinhead wrote:
It's all about mechanics and macro.
Why is Zerg the by far most played race in Korea by all the good players? Because as Z, you can play standard and solid macro-games and win by having superior Mechanics, not just by cheesing, ruhsing or timing-attacks, which is just the way to play the other 2 races if you want to win.
It surely has nothing to do with Unit-combination or some weird strategies, they are just former SC-Pro's that have extremely good Mechanics.
It's just a difference in playstyles, with solid macrobuilds just being better than cheesey stuff and timing-attacks if you have good mechanics and because this playstyle heavily favours Zerg atm, they choose Zerg. Why do you think ppl like Idra and Artosis are playing Zerg? They hate cheese because they know it's just not a solid build and it requires no skill, you can pretty much toss a coin when you play those builds, with solid BO's that are macro-oriented and are able to counter those builds if you scout right, you'll just always be at an advantage and you can rely on your skill, other than the lack of scouting/stupidity of your opponent.
Why is Zerg better at this playstyle than the other races?
- They are the strongest Macro-race, because they can pump drones so fast and switch to Massing Units if they have to.
- They have the easiest time taking additional expansions and defending them, with queens, decent "Static"-defense that isn't even all that static and incresed speed on the creep..
- They are the best race at defending against cheese with Queens being able to shoot in the Air, being able to switch Unit-compositions faster than any other race, very good scouting options with Overlords and very fast Units which can be used to counterattack and/or defend very fast.
- Also, their Units like Hydra are very versatile and extremely good at defending, especially with additional speed on the creep and they get their observer automatically at T2, without having to go a certain techroute which limits you in the Unit-composition you're able to play.
You are my other half, that is exactly how I feel about Zerg in general. And I always said "damn it's going to be scary when I play koreans" because we all know darn well they know how to micro/macro a lot better on average then us Americans.
But yes queens imo, make zerg so strong it's not even funny.
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On May 04 2010 04:36 Bluerain wrote:
You tell the average person in the US you play mass games of sc2 and want to be a progamer, what kind of response do you think you'll elicit? Laughter at best. In a society that fosters e-sports, where dedication to an RTS can possibly bring in a decent amount of money, stardom, and even action with the ladies, it's no wonder that koreans play more and are superior players.
By the way, koreans have school after school i believe.
Moving to korea!!!
I never tell females I play video games unless I am dating them already lol. Thank god for txting, because before that, I was always 'busy' or doing 'hw' when you know damn well I was playing some sort of video game lol.
RTS aren't cute video games you can get girls into either like WoW, or Smash Bros, it's catered to gamers, competitive ones at that.
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On May 04 2010 04:11 Azarkon wrote:
MYM and ROX members paid annual salaries to play SC? When was this? Like eight years ago or something? Because AFAIK foreigner teams like Fnatic don't pay their players for SC - they just sponsor them for tournaments & gaming gear. It's not like in Korea where KESPA pays up to full six-digit salaries (comparable to upper middle-class professionals in the US) for top players. WC 3 is a different story.
There was no RoX or bw mYm 8 years ago, don't be ridiculous. And no team payed foreigners back then, not the salaries. The only reason players like f91 joined mYm was money, same with many foreigners leaving one team joining another. You can't "argue" with this, it's a fact.
Tournament money, while relevant, is not enough to support a vibrant pro scene. There are only a few major money tournaments every year and you need to win a good proportion of them to pay your bills as a pro-gamer. WCG pays like, what, ~$10,000 to the grand champion? That's the equivalent of monthly salary for a top Korean pro. There's no way you can make a career out of winning the WCG.
You can make 50-100 dollars from weekly tournaments that were and probably still are held on bw, add wcg, add dreamhack and TSL etc. It is irrelevant how much money top progamers make, they are 50-60 out of hundreds of thousands of koreans that tried to get picked up by a proteam. You can't even compare the level of competition in korea and outside of it, it doesn't make any sense. Thus, JUST LIKE I SAID, the chances that you will make money playing bw as a foreigner are infinitely higher than if you were a korean. Low tier pros and B-teamers barely make anything, they wouldn't be able to live off that even in korea. Their only choice is a proteam house where they eat, sleep and practice. But if you live with your parents and not doing anything you might as well not complain about paying the bills. Plus you have a choice here in the US, you can take a year or 10 off and not go to college immediately, meanwhile koreans have to do it.
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When asked about why Zerg is dominant in Asia, Artosis said in his stream yesterday that most zergs go sunken to muta build which he said he doesn't believe is always the best build, but that it is difficult to beat.
If this is true, then most likely once Terran and Protoss get skilled in countering this build, Zerg will no longer be so dominant in Asia.
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I got some interesting writing from Korean SC2 community PlayXP
Title Why US's Z is the weakest and Asia's T is the weakest?
1. Asian T is bad
2. Asia's Z and P is better than T
3. US's T is good
4. US's Z and P is worse than T
Probably it is 1...
제목 왜 도대체 북미는 저그가 젤약하고
왜 도대체 아시아서버는 테란이 젤약할까
1아시아서버의 테란들이 못하는걸까요 아니면
2아시아서버의 저그,토스들이 잘하는 걸까요 아니면
3북미서버의 테란들이 잘하는걸까요 아니면
4북미서버의 저그,토스들이 못하는걸까요
1번이 문제이려나..
...What do u think?
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Germany886 Posts
Prolly they found the button to build Infestors. Terrible terrible units.
Also, it seems that there are too few EU zergs just defending solid and then expand everywhere. I really don't see a good answer on Defense+Infestor+Mass expo, I really feel kinda chanceless against this sometimes as a Terran player.
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Just finished watching all of the korean games posted so far.
As AMAZING as most of their micro is, it is pretty evident they don't have a good grasp of the game yet with any of the races.
Zerg is obviously dominant over there because it is so closely related to zerg from broodwar. Watching their terran and protoss players was like watching TL replays from 2 months ago. All the Micro in the world won't help you in a game you are still new to.
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On May 03 2010 22:08 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 21:47 Ricjames wrote:
Do you guys really think that europe/us players could be equal with korean? Well a few might be able to put up a good fight, but when SC2 is released - more older it gets, bigger domination by Koreans will occur. You overestimate Koreans. A lot. If eSports outside Korea stays as small as it currently is then yes, Koreans will dominate. This probably won't be the case though.
I don't think Koreans are overrated in terms of skills in RTS games like SC or SC2. It's completely a societal issue.
For example, take the NBA. African Americans are clearly more "talented" in Basketball and dominate the pro-scene there. Who in their right minds would argue, "If the basketball playing Asians in Asia came to play basketball in the US, Blacks wouldn't dominate the sport." No one. The US, especially in the black community, places a stronger emphasis on athletic finesse.
The same concept applies here. Korea places more emphasis on eSports in general and thus are more "talented" in RTS games.
If all countries had an equal amount of interest in eSports, then of course it wouldn't matter what ethnic background the individual is. However, the fact is that Korea places a bigger emphasis on eSports and thus has better players.
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Basically in ZvP if you open 2hatch muta then unlike in SC1 there is no magic number of phoenixes that will automatically mow down mutas since phoenixes don't have splash like corsairs. And since archons now suck, protoss really doesn't have a good counter to mass mutas (2 stargate phoenix+stalker+zealot+sentry off two bases loses to 2base mutaling and the mutaling obviously have way way more map control). I think that's what the problem is. Maybe marines work better than do stalkers for T in ZvT but as it is now the phoenix, the mutalisk, or the archon need a change.
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I think the word you are looking for is culture John. It's more socially accepted in Korea. Then again, you'll see interviews done with the pro's saying they got support from their parents, but that doesn't necessarily mean they climbed on board right away. Lots of these guys didn't even finish High School and their parents have every right to be worried about their well-being. Good Western analogy would be to tell your parents you want to go into the Arts. Some would probably say, "Why would you want to do that? How are you going to put bread and butter on the table?" etc.
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On May 04 2010 02:40 LUE.Leoj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:27 condoriano wrote:On May 04 2010 02:18 LUE.Leoj wrote:On May 04 2010 02:09 condoriano wrote:On May 04 2010 02:00 LUE.Leoj wrote:
Yes but you're thinking about making money as in being rich and famous as opposed to not having to work another job and being able to play SC all day. Korean pros are paid to play SC, they (basically) don't have to worry about other expenses as that's taken care of by their team/sponsor. I doubt anyone living in the West could live as an actual SC pro. Unless there's a ton of money or ultra-sponsored teams, it's just considerably more expensive living here, sponsors aren't as willing/serious (yet), and tournaments aren't giving the kind of publicity/cash sponsors want. Rich and famous? I'm not sure what you mean. Progamers are at their prime relatively early, every school kid that was wasting his life on WoW could be playing sc2. I don't see how there's a huge difference resourcewise. There aren't any progamer houses for sc2 yet still there's already a difference in skill. There were no progamer houses for all the people that hopelessly played sc1 in korea trying to win courage, they are just regular kids with same kind of time at their hands as everybody else has at their age (they probably had to do better at school too rofl) Check out this study from 2000 - http://www.uis.unesco.org/ev.php?ID=5378_201&ID2=DO_TOPICKorean children are taught, on average, half as long as children in the US are. In primary school there's "only" a 300 hour difference between them, but in secondary that gap shoots up to 600 hours. I would like a korean to disprove this, someone says koreans got less schoolwork to do than westerners LOL. Okay, lets imagine this was true, are you really making an argument that koreans have so much more spare time because of their school system that it adds up to the superior amounts of practice times allowing them to top every other competition? Come on.. First of all, this simply isn't true, second, people like Dimaga, Brat_OK and White Ra basically have been playing bw for a living. They get their pay. They play as much as they want to. Not to derail this topic further but Dimaga and WhiteRa live in Ukraine, whereas Brat_OK lives in Russia. Compare the cost of living indexes (you can even get nice little definitions on that same page) with the US here - http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jspMy basic argument is that Koreans (and I guess Eastern Europeans in this case) perform better at Zerg (and really at games in general) because, compared to traditional western countries, it is both cheaper to live there and less obligations are imposed upon them. Either way it's not surprising if "Korean" zerg is more advanced since it's essentially an open beta over there. Yeah we've had Gamestop and whatever but every lan center over there has free beta access...and there are a ton of lan centers.
They do also earn quite a bit less so that evens it out.
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On May 04 2010 05:36 condoriano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:11 Azarkon wrote:
MYM and ROX members paid annual salaries to play SC? When was this? Like eight years ago or something? Because AFAIK foreigner teams like Fnatic don't pay their players for SC - they just sponsor them for tournaments & gaming gear. It's not like in Korea where KESPA pays up to full six-digit salaries (comparable to upper middle-class professionals in the US) for top players. WC 3 is a different story.
There was no RoX or bw mYm 8 years ago, don't be ridiculous. And no team payed foreigners back then, not the salaries. The only reason players like f91 joined mYm was money, same with many foreigners leaving one team joining another. You can't "argue" with this, it's a fact.
Speculating that they might have been paid is not enough. *When* were they paid? How *much* were they paid? I can cite Korean salary numbers from well-established sources. What can you do for foreigners?
By the way, foreigners who have been in Korea - such as Nony and Artosis - have went on record saying how much of a difference there was between the two pro-scenes in terms of salary numbers, career opportunities, etc. It simply isn't comparable.
You can make 50-100 dollars from weekly tournaments that were and probably still are held on bw, add wcg, add dreamhack and TSL etc. It is irrelevant how much money top progamers make, they are 50-60 out of hundreds of thousands of koreans that tried to get picked up by a proteam. You can't even compare the level of competition in korea and outside of it, it doesn't make any sense. Thus, JUST LIKE I SAID, the chances that you will make money playing bw as a foreigner are infinitely higher than if you were a korean. Low tier pros and B-teamers barely make anything, they wouldn't be able to live off that even in korea. Their only choice is a proteam house where they eat, sleep and practice. But if you live with your parents and not doing anything you might as well not complain about paying the bills. Plus you have a choice here in the US, you can take a year or 10 off and not go to college immediately, meanwhile koreans have to do it.
Frankly, that's ridiculous, and anyone who's tried to become a SC pro-gamer in the US can attest. SC tourneys do not provide a stable source of income. In fact, tourneys in general do not provide a stable source of income, because there is no guarantee that you will win anything, and a lot of it comes down to luck. By contrast, Korean pro-gamers are paid salaries, which are contractual agreements that they can depend on for their livelihood once they make it as a pro-gamer. Moreover, all their living expenses are paid by KESPA, so they'll never go hungry, homeless, etc., even while they're on the crap team.
Saying that foreigners, in general, have a better chance at playing SC for money runs contrary to the experience of top foreigners who have examined the two scenes. Yes, it is *possible* to make more money as a foreigner playing SC, but this money is not consistent and therefore not conducive to a career in pro-gaming. By contrast, Korean pro-gamers have consistent incomes and therefore financial security. The odd foreigner who actually "makes it" as a pro-gamer (ie Idra) stays in Korea. The rest have to choose between other careers and their devotion to the game.
Stating that the competition is fiercer in Korea is actually contrary to the point of your post. The competition is fiercer because the career is more lucrative. Pro-gaming in SC was not seen as a legitimate career choice by non-Koreans, so it is natural that the competition was weaker. You can only compete when there's something to compete over.
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5 bank accounts 3 ounces and 2 vehicles
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On May 04 2010 05:51 Tanatos wrote:
I got some interesting writing from Korean SC2 community PlayXP
Title Why US's Z is the weakest and Asia's T is the weakest?
1. Asian T is bad
2. Asia's Z and P is better than T
3. US's T is good
4. US's Z and P is worse than T
Probably it is 1...
제목 왜 도대체 북미는 저그가 젤약하고
왜 도대체 아시아서버는 테란이 젤약할까
1아시아서버의 테란들이 못하는걸까요 아니면
2아시아서버의 저그,토스들이 잘하는 걸까요 아니면
3북미서버의 테란들이 잘하는걸까요 아니면
4북미서버의 저그,토스들이 못하는걸까요
1번이 문제이려나..
...What do u think?
I would appreciate a link very much
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Super derailed thread.
But set Nationality aside.
The group of players that invests the most time and EFFORT to learn the game, or any endeavor. Will be the group of players that does the best, and is considered the best.
There is no gene that makes you good at video games. Sure you can have nice reflexes, etc. like anything else.
But people put WAYYY to much emphasis on "talent" instead of effort.
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On May 04 2010 06:20 Hesmyrr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 05:51 Tanatos wrote:
I got some interesting writing from Korean SC2 community PlayXP
Title Why US's Z is the weakest and Asia's T is the weakest?
1. Asian T is bad
2. Asia's Z and P is better than T
3. US's T is good
4. US's Z and P is worse than T
Probably it is 1...
제목 왜 도대체 북미는 저그가 젤약하고
왜 도대체 아시아서버는 테란이 젤약할까
1아시아서버의 테란들이 못하는걸까요 아니면
2아시아서버의 저그,토스들이 잘하는 걸까요 아니면
3북미서버의 테란들이 잘하는걸까요 아니면
4북미서버의 저그,토스들이 못하는걸까요
1번이 문제이려나..
...What do u think? I would appreciate a link very much
http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=1950182&page=2
It was really personal idea and has no deeper meaning though.
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i like how people went from;
"yea macro mechanics duhduhduhhhh!"
to talking about the korean education system. I think people are just grasping at this point.
... keep in mind, there ARE bad korean players... just because they keke doesn't mean they don't geegee. Im always wondering, could i beat flash's mom?
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On May 04 2010 06:16 StarStruck wrote:
I think the word you are looking for is culture John. It's more socially accepted in Korea. Then again, you'll see interviews done with the pro's saying they got support from their parents, but that doesn't necessarily mean they climbed on board right away. Lots of these guys didn't even finish High School and their parents have every right to be worried about their well-being. Good Western analogy would be to tell your parents you want to go into the Arts. Some would probably say, "Why would you want to do that? How are you going to put bread and butter on the table?" etc.
Yeah. I guess "Korea places more emphasis on eSports" is a bit misleading.
You're right; more culturally accepted is much better. "Exposure" could possibly work also.
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On May 03 2010 21:01 zealing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 20:58 EnderW wrote:On May 03 2010 20:39 zealing wrote:
pfff korean zergs are nothing compared to some foreigners we got. the great thing about SC2 is the fact that everyone started off at the same time, korea in BW was ahead by like 2-3 years or something but now its all even so koreans are just as good, better and worse then some foreigners. nony, naz, tlo are all people that can play the race zerg and beat people of "korean zerg level" caliber with like np.
they may have a different style then us but that dont mean there better. This is very misinformed. BW was not released in korea before it was in the USA. i didn't say that did i? no i said that koreans were more into SC then we were when it first came out, they had pro leagues/courage and becoming a pro gamer was not uncommon. while in NA if you say i wanna be a pro gamer 99% of the time your going to get smacked upside the head :S
Uh, not sure how old you were at the time, but Starcraft was massive in America/Europe near release. Koreans are wayyyy more into SC since maybe WC3 came out. That's it.
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um guys, stop talking about salaries please.
B-teamers in korea can buy 10,000 kg of rice with their salary, and im pretty sure the players like JD or flash are able to buy 20,000-40,000
In other country? i bet they cant even reach 2500-3000kg of rice with their annual salary.
There is no reason to compare dollar for dollar by international exchange rate. all that matters is purchasing power, and how much rice you can eat per year.
Btw. i eat 34kg of rice per year 
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On May 04 2010 06:18 Azarkon wrote:
Speculating that they might have been paid is not enough. *When* were they paid? How *much* were they paid? I can cite Korean salary numbers from well-established sources. What can you do for foreigners?
You are the one speculating, first you said they were paid 8 years ago, now you are asking me to prove that players get paid. Basically you are pulling things out of your ass. No, they switched teams because of a nicer tag or an extra mousepad. Do you even believe yourself?
By the way, foreigners who have been in Korea - such as Nony and Artosis - have went on record saying how much of a difference there was between the two pro-scenes in terms of salary numbers, career opportunities, etc. It simply isn't comparable.
You pulled out another one. Where did nony or artosis said that? Artosis says if you aren't going to dedicate yourself solely to gaming you wont even have a chance at coming close to winning courage. Even if you make it onto a proteam you won't be saving money. All you get is a place to live and food and an environment to practice. To make cash and have "career opportunities" you have to be one of the very top players, there are plenty of threads about that on TL. Low tier pro's make less money than top foreigners, why do I have to repeat 3 times? This is actually something that Artosis mentioned before. Do you not understand? You are just repeating same ridiculous nonsense about career and opportunity, which has no connection with reality. Chinese players did not want to play in Korea BECAUSE THEY MAKE MORE IN CHINA. And they don't have to follow a strict regimen.
Stating that the competition is fiercer in Korea is actually contrary to the point of your post. The competition is fiercer because the career is more lucrative. Pro-gaming in SC was not seen as a legitimate career choice by non-Koreans, so it is natural that the competition was weaker. You can only compete when there's something to compete over.
That's only contrary in your imagination, I said specifically given the level of competition in Korea it's nearly impossible to make money off playing bw compared to foreign tournaments where someone like Ace or Dimaga can get sponsored on a regular basis playing for a team and win a few tournaments here and there being a relative newcomer to the scene.
If you are going to repeat the nonsense again I simply won't answer.
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here's a post from gosugamers coming from morrow
#23 [Sweden] eX-v1o)MorroW 4
i think the problem is that we have too few top players. ofcourse the teams with most money r gonna get the best players, but if there were more players i dont think they could afford to take everybody in.
i still think no team is "undefeatable" for now, and besides it doesnt matter alot since sc2 is comming so soon now ^^
Money. MONEY. And this was relatively recent, nearing the death of bw.
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While some skills carry over from starcraft1, i would like to remember (or tell the younger ones) than when starcraft first came out, korea was in no way better than the west. NA/EU was in the lead at first, and Korea took the lead only when progaming became so popular that people could make a living out of sc. Currently the progaming scene for sc2 is small to non-existant, it's true some players are training but there's not nearly enough going on in the beta stage to live from it. We can never know until we get a intercontinental tournament going, but my guess is that right now, koreans are behind, and they will catch up and become the top only a few months after release.
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Gaming is more culturally accepted in Korea? Have you guys BEEN there? Or, you know, met any one of the vast majority of Koreans who are actually punished for playing games, rather than praised like your precious pro-gamers? >.> Spending 5 minutes too long on the computer = lecture about how your academics will suffer, and how you aren't allowed to touch anything for the next two weeks.
What I would be fine with is if people were saying the extremsts of Korea are more extreme than elsewhere in regards to gaming. It is in no way an "everybody knows what SC is" country, like some people seem to believe.
And, to try and make this post seem as little derailed as possible:
Therefore, the reason Korean Zergs are better than US/EU Zergs is most definitely not because Korea accepts gaming much better than the aforementioned countries. It's because they're nuts who are good at the game  Nothing to do with nationality.
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Are there any stats whatsoever to back this up? has anyone even looked at the ladders and done some calculations to show that Z is dominant on the asian servers?
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I don't have the exact stats, but it's very, very obvious that Zerg is dominant on the asian servers >.>
7 of the 10 top players are all Z, or something like that, as well as their higher win rate (I don't know the exact numbers, but it is significantly higher than the other races, for sure)
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None of this information is current.
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On May 04 2010 09:06 Zeke50100 wrote:
I don't have the exact stats, but it's very, very obvious that Zerg is dominant on the asian servers >.>
7 of the 10 top players are all Z, or something like that, as well as their higher win rate (I don't know the exact numbers, but it is significantly higher than the other races, for sure)
Yeah and It's obvious that I have a 12 inch penis as well, but I still don't think it really warrants discussion unless I'm willing to measure it right? It's not that I don't believe some of the anecdotes claiming that zerg is dominant on asian servers, its that I actually like to see proof, numbers that support claims.
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On May 04 2010 09:23 Wr3k wrote:Yeah and It's obvious that I have a 12 inch penis as well, but I still don't think it really warrants discussion unless I'm willing to measure it right? It's not that I don't believe some of the anecdotes claiming that zerg is dominant on asian servers, its that I actually like to see proof, numbers that support claims.
There were even numbers in that post you quoted. Gawd.
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On May 04 2010 09:45 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 09:23 Wr3k wrote:Yeah and It's obvious that I have a 12 inch penis as well, but I still don't think it really warrants discussion unless I'm willing to measure it right? It's not that I don't believe some of the anecdotes claiming that zerg is dominant on asian servers, its that I actually like to see proof, numbers that support claims. There were even numbers in that post you quoted. Gawd.
No numbers from after the reset fiasco or the last couple patches.
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On May 04 2010 09:22 Wr3k wrote:None of this information is current.
What is not current?
One snapshot from the ladder was taken today/yesterday(May 3) and the rest were from April 18 and 23 before the ladder reset/bug has occurred.
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On May 04 2010 09:54 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 09:45 Turbovolver wrote:On May 04 2010 09:23 Wr3k wrote:Yeah and It's obvious that I have a 12 inch penis as well, but I still don't think it really warrants discussion unless I'm willing to measure it right? It's not that I don't believe some of the anecdotes claiming that zerg is dominant on asian servers, its that I actually like to see proof, numbers that support claims. There were even numbers in that post you quoted. Gawd. No numbers from after the reset fiasco or the last couple patches.
Because the reset made the ladder un-broken, right? If anything, anything after the reset should be considered null, due to the ladder system being dead.
Oh, and if you can point out any changes that SIGNIFICANTLY changed the way the game was played (disregarding the larva bug), I'd gladly take a look at it. If there wasn't a significant change, then the dominance is likely to continue; and there sure aren't enough subtle changes to make a difference.
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Didn't artosis mention Z were still having their way with the Asian realm? I know his last cast Hawanni mentioned 80% of the players in the tourney (XPlay LAN) were zerg.
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because the protoss player didn't have a pylon to warp in.
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Could the higher winrate of the Zerg players in Korea simply be attributed to a higher quantity of Zerg players in Korea?
I don't know the racial distribution or tendencies of Koreans, but I remember hearing that a lot of them play Zerg. If, say, 7 out of 10 players are Zerg, Zerg would have a higher chance of achieving a greater win rate. That chance would only inflate if all the better players believed that Zerg was also the superior race, irregardless of whether it was or not.
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On May 04 2010 10:29 Niji87 wrote:
Could the higher winrate of the Zerg players in Korea simply be attributed to a higher quantity of Zerg players in Korea?
I don't know the racial distribution or tendencies of Koreans, but I remember hearing that a lot of them play Zerg. If, say, 7 out of 10 players are Zerg, Zerg would have a higher chance of achieving a greater win rate. That chance would only inflate if all the better players believed that Zerg was also the superior race, irregardless of whether it was or not.
It shouldn't mean anything. The winrate % is the average win-rate per player, meaning it would only make a difference if a majority of the Zerg were outliers.
Also, irregardless isn't a word >.>
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Yes, a lot of people take time out of their day to tell me that. That's part of the reason why I keep using it, haha.
Anyway, I honestly don't even know if there is a bias towards Zerg on the Korean servers.
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we won't know if it's balanced for a year?
we're not sure if it will ever be balanced enough for a scene that bw has right now in korea
(certainly it won't as balanced or more balanced than scbw, thats impossible)
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On May 04 2010 10:33 Niji87 wrote:
Yes, a lot of people take time out of their day to tell me that. That's part of the reason why I keep using it, haha.
Anyway, I honestly don't even know if there is a bias towards Zerg on the Korean servers.
Isn't that called...Trolling? >.>
Anyway, as I said, factional preference doesn't matter at all until outliers come in to play (and only a significant amount)
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Canada2480 Posts
hey people... korean SC2 will be stronger then foreign SC2 scene very soon. in Korea they (will)have a pro-scene, they have former SC:BW pro, the governement helps e-sports
the south african hockey team is not taking out the Canadian Ice-hockey team
a sad reality but a reality nevertheless
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Korean zergs just try harder.
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On May 04 2010 10:38 tomatriedes wrote:
Korean zergs just try harder.
lol
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This is just side-talk... Korean z's are not better than usa/europeans atm. in fact I think they play stubborn and worse. I haven't lost vs a single zerg as terran in probably 15 games. If korean t's cant figure out the formula its sad. Anyone wanting to see the strats I use PM me or ask for link.
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looking at build orders i watched artosis in a ZvT and he went for speedings into a lair into infestors - no mutas or hydras at all. it was weird to watch, but effective i guess
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On May 04 2010 11:48 VarsityUser wrote:
This is just side-talk... Korean z's are not better than usa/europeans atm. in fact I think they play stubborn and worse. I haven't lost vs a single zerg as terran in probably 15 games. If korean t's cant figure out the formula its sad. Anyone wanting to see the strats I use PM me or ask for link.
wow that is a very bold statement...
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I don't think differences in play on the ladder would be particularly meaningful in comparison to tournaments. Ladder play can often be shaped by what the majority of your opponents are doing - it's ok to do a build that loses to x if x hardly ever happens and y almost always does. For example right now protoss doing 10 gate versus terran is far more viable than 12 gate because of the reaper rush, even though it's an economically inferior build. If koreans, who are known for more "standard" play, dislike the reaper and consider it a "cheese" unit, not fit for standard play, 12 gate is going to be the go to build for them. Does this mean koreans are better than americans at protoss because they 12 gate? Not really, it just means the game has developed differently in Korea.
Honestly, I find it fascinating to see the game develop differently in Korea vs euro/us, but I don't think we will be able to know which type of play is better except in tournaments. What works in Korea on ladder may not work as well on US ladder, and vice versa.
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On May 04 2010 07:05 condoriano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 06:18 Azarkon wrote:
Speculating that they might have been paid is not enough. *When* were they paid? How *much* were they paid? I can cite Korean salary numbers from well-established sources. What can you do for foreigners? You are the one speculating, first you said they were paid 8 years ago, now you are asking me to prove that players get paid. Basically you are pulling things out of your ass. No, they switched teams because of a nicer tag or an extra mousepad. Do you even believe yourself?
I claim that foreigners do not earn comparable salaries to Koreans playing SC or have comparable opportunities for career advancement. I was likewise skeptical of your claim that teams like MYM have paid salaries to SC players in a long time, so I asked you to provide evidence for it. My main point is supported by several foreigner pros who've come out and made the same point, long before me. What have you got to contradict this? The fact that foreigners sometimes switched teams, for whatever reason? Ridiculous...
You pulled out another one. Where did nony or artosis said that?
Artosis:
The Korean eSports system is based on completely different things than the rest of the world. In Korea, every eSports team is simply a marketing cost which doesn’t generate actual money. Outside of Korea, all the professional teams have a bottom line and have to make money. This makes Korean teams able to give out really large salaries to multiple people, which is a nice change. Another thing the Korean scene has going for it is that its all connected to each other, and on TV. The non-Korean scene has fragmented tournaments with fragmented coverage, which makes the growth a lot slower. There are lots of other differences too, but I’ll leave those for another time.
Source: http://fnatic.com/feature/7165/Artosis-I-dona-t-want-to-join-a-Korean-team.html
Nony:
Wasieleski also points out that whether the rest of the world will be on an even keel with Korea depends on how many non-Koreans can get decent salaries.
"If other countries had over 1,000 people trying to be a progamer and the country's best 300 players living in progamer houses practicing full time, then they'd have a chance. Personally I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if the US has even 25 people earning living wages for playing SC2 full time,
People love to hear about the huge prize pools at tournaments, but what E-Sports really needs is $30k+ salaries for players."
Source: http://www.gosugamers.net/general/news/11696-nony-e-sports-need-30k-salaries-for-players
Do you not understand? You are just repeating same ridiculous nonsense about career and opportunity, which has no connection with reality. Chinese players did not want to play in Korea BECAUSE THEY MAKE MORE IN CHINA. And they don't have to follow a strict regimen.
Actually, I'm repeating what pro-gamers in the foreigner scene have said, and been saying. I don't think you know more than them. Do you?
Also, you keep using China as an example, without realizing that no one actually has in-depth knowledge of what China's pro scene is like. They do have a fairly considerable presence on WC 3 and DOTA, but in SC, outside of a handful of players like F91 and Ace, who can you really name? It's not like what Korea has, with its twelve pro-teams, youth recruitment drives (almost all the Chinese players are old timers), and dedicated corporate leagues. If anything, China's SC pro scene appears a lot closer to Europe's and America's than Korea's, with some above average players and tourneys, but no real ability to expand or grow.
That's only contrary in your imagination, I said specifically given the level of competition in Korea it's nearly impossible to make money off playing bw compared to foreign tournaments where someone like Ace or Dimaga can get sponsored on a regular basis playing for a team and win a few tournaments here and there being a relative newcomer to the scene.
If you are going to repeat the nonsense again I simply won't answer.
Then don't answer. It's clear that you have no idea about the actual scene, seeing as you haven't even been able to cite one source supporting your statements. It's so much harder to be a SC pro-gamer in Korea? Then explain why there are so many more SC Korean pro-gamers compared to other countries? Clearly there are more slots for top gamers in Korea than in China or Europe or the US - you can tell just from the number of Korean teams with money to support full-time SC gamers, versus the number of EU teams, US teams, and Chinese teams.
In fact, how many money-paying EU, US, and Chinese pro-teams can you name? I sure as heck can name a lot of Korean teams. If the foreigner SC scene has as much money and opportunities in it as the Korean scene, then surely there should be comparable employment?
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korean terrans do play weird.. could have a effect on why they getting ownt by zerg (just a thought)
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On May 04 2010 11:48 VarsityUser wrote:
This is just side-talk... Korean z's are not better than usa/europeans atm. in fact I think they play stubborn and worse. I haven't lost vs a single zerg as terran in probably 15 games. If korean t's cant figure out the formula its sad. Anyone wanting to see the strats I use PM me or ask for link.
Talk about flawed logic, but ok
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Comon guys, lets not forget who the true enemy is here... It's Blizzard for separating us into regions and preventing us from playing with our Korean brethren!
and anyways... I feel like this is more of a way to indirectly say someone else's race is IMBA.
You see Zerg is good you guys just aren't playing them right!
NOOOO The Koreans just aren't playing Protoss and Terran right!
As say Lord Diablo.
But that's just me >.<
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Last night Artosis stated that it was a failing of the terran and protoss players when I asked him on his stream. Just from watching LZ and Artosis mess around on the korean server, it doesnt seem like there are any vast differences in the way zerg is played, so I am inclined to believe it is a failing among the other races.
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On May 04 2010 12:57 Azarkon wrote:
I claim that foreigners do not earn comparable salaries to Koreans playing SC or have comparable opportunities for career advancement. I was likewise skeptical of your claim that teams like MYM have paid salaries to SC players in a long time, so I asked you to provide evidence for it. My main point is supported by several foreigner pros who've come out and made the same point, long before me. What have you got to contradict this? The fact that foreigners sometimes switched teams, for whatever reason? Ridiculous...
I'll be short this time because it's the last one. I posted Morrows comment from gg.net (I won't waste more time searching for more info since this is enough) Reread the quote, he directly mentions top foreign teams acquiring ppl because they can offer more money. He knows because he's one of the top european players. That comment is ~9 months old. You flat out lose here (which was the basis of the whole argument btw)
Artosis:
The Korean eSports system is based on completely different things than the rest of the world. In Korea, every eSports team is simply a marketing cost which doesn’t generate actual money. Outside of Korea, all the professional teams have a bottom line and have to make money. This makes Korean teams able to give out really large salaries to multiple people, which is a nice change. Another thing the Korean scene has going for it is that its all connected to each other, and on TV. The non-Korean scene has fragmented tournaments with fragmented coverage, which makes the growth a lot slower. There are lots of other differences too, but I’ll leave those for another time.
Nony:
Wasieleski also points out that whether the rest of the world will be on an even keel with Korea depends on how many non-Koreans can get decent salaries.
"If other countries had over 1,000 people trying to be a progamer and the country's best 300 players living in progamer houses practicing full time, then they'd have a chance. Personally I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if the US has even 25 people earning living wages for playing SC2 full time,
People love to hear about the huge prize pools at tournaments, but what E-Sports really needs is $30k+ salaries for players."
Where did they mention anything about low tier progamers being able to make money? Why are you posting this, what have you proven? Nony saying that progamers should make 30k a year is already suggesting more than many top korean pros make. This is no evidence of what you've implied. Here's a simple TL search on progamer salary, read this thread
Manifesto7 Osaka. December 29 2008 21:01. Posts 18736 PM Profile Blog Quote #
Totally wrong. Last year Free was making 6k... a YEAR.
Players who are not on the A team earn room and board, and MAYBE an allowance. Unless you are making those appearance fees, you aren't getting any significant salary.
ondik Czech Republic. December 29 2008 22:02. Posts 673 PM Profile Blog Quote #
Remember interview with Oversky? Even with accomodation and food being payed he doesn't earn anything with which he could allow himself some nights out or a holiday. I know that it may be different case because he's in ACE, but I don't think B-players earn anything more in other teams.
Tough life.
I'm not going to dig out Artosis interviews, I simply feel that what I'm providing is more than enough. He said while casting TSL that JF made more money off bw than some of the progamers.
Neither him nor Nony ever said anything about progamer salary for those who don't even make A teams roster. Your quotes are irrelevant, you lose again. Free making 8k a year - that's 167$ a week payed to one of the top players on his team (he sure was one in 2008) Just to give you an idea, someone like oversky would be the best foreign player hands down, he makes nothing at a progamer house, he could've made at the very least 500$+ a month being the best foreigner.
Actually, I'm repeating what pro-gamers in the foreigner scene have said, and been saying. I don't think you know more than them. Do you?
Also, you keep using China as an example, without realizing that no one actually has in-depth knowledge of what China's pro scene is like. They do have a fairly considerable presence on WC 3 and DOTA, but in SC, outside of a handful of players like F91 and Ace, who can you really name? It's not like what Korea has, with its twelve pro-teams, youth recruitment drives (almost all the Chinese players are old timers), and dedicated corporate leagues. If anything, China's SC pro scene appears a lot closer to Europe's and America's than Korea's, with some above average players and tourneys, but no real ability to expand or grow.
Then don't answer. It's clear that you have no idea about the actual scene, seeing as you haven't even been able to cite one source supporting your statements.
Yet your biggest flaw is that YOU have no idea what you are talking about while accusing me of this. First you stated that bw mYm and RoX existed 8 years ago, now Ace becomes a chinese player. Aside from f91 you can name Pj, Lx, Super, Leilei, Fengzi etc. You forgot 2 most accomplished chinese players lmao. Nuff said, bye.
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On May 04 2010 15:36 condoriano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 12:57 Azarkon wrote:
I claim that foreigners do not earn comparable salaries to Koreans playing SC or have comparable opportunities for career advancement. I was likewise skeptical of your claim that teams like MYM have paid salaries to SC players in a long time, so I asked you to provide evidence for it. My main point is supported by several foreigner pros who've come out and made the same point, long before me. What have you got to contradict this? The fact that foreigners sometimes switched teams, for whatever reason? Ridiculous... I'll be short this time because it's the last one. I posted Morrows comment from gg.net (I won't waste more time searching for more info since this is enough) Reread the quote, he directly mentions top foreign teams acquiring ppl because they can offer more money. He knows because he's one of the top european players. That comment is ~9 months old. You flat out lose here (which was the basis of the whole argument btw)
You're changing the argument. Here's what you quoted.
"i think the problem is that we have too few top players. ofcourse the teams with most money r gonna get the best players, but if there were more players i dont think they could afford to take everybody in.
i still think no team is "undefeatable" for now, and besides it doesnt matter alot since sc2 is comming so soon now ^^"
Where does it say that teams are offering salaries? All it says is that, relative to each other, teams with more money take in better players, which could simply mean that they offer better sign-on bonuses or tournament sponsorship. My point has always been that the salaries and opportunities here are not comparable to those in Korea, which is a direct counter to your (original) claim that foreigners make more money. Morrow's comment doesn't even begin to suggest that he thinks otherwise.
Where did they mention anything about low tier progamers being able to make money? Why are you posting this, what have you proven? Nony saying that progamers should make 30k a year is already suggesting more than many top korean pros make. This is no evidence of what you've implied. Here's a simple TL search on progamer salary, read this threadShow nested quote + Manifesto7 Osaka. December 29 2008 21:01. Posts 18736 PM Profile Blog Quote #
Totally wrong. Last year Free was making 6k... a YEAR.
Players who are not on the A team earn room and board, and MAYBE an allowance. Unless you are making those appearance fees, you aren't getting any significant salary.
I don't know what world you live in, but room, board, and allowance are decent compensation for failing to do anything significant other than winning Courage. A comparable salary in the West would be in the $10,000-$20,000 range, because that's the living costs associated with having room, board, and allowance unless you live in your parent's basement, which most people in the West do not do. From this perspective, Nony's suggestion of $30k is more than reasonable. $30k is the sort of money you make being a blue-collar worker. No one's going to choose pro-gaming as a life-style choice in the West if you can't at least live like a blue-collar worker.
As for Free, you realize his salary (not counting room & board) went up to $10,000+ recently, right?
I'm not going to dig out Artosis interviews, I simply feel that what I'm providing is more than enough. He said while casting TSL that JF made more money off bw than some of the progamers.
JF made more money off BW during the one or two year period when he was winning tournaments left and right. I don't know if you remember this, but JF was at the top of the foreigner scene around the time he won the first TSL. There is only one JF - and only one possible JF - at a time. For every JF, Korea has a hundred A-teamers.
You don't have a scene with just one player. Just because one player in the foreigner's scene made more money during his time of dominance than "some" pro-gamers, does not make pro-gaming careers sustainable in the West. Where is JF now, I ask you? Cause he's certainly not pro-gaming anymore.
Neither him nor Nony ever said anything about progamer salary for those who don't even make A teams roster. Your quotes are irrelevant, you lose again. Free making 8k a year - that's 167$ a week payed to one of the top players on his team (he sure was one in 2008) Just to give you an idea, someone like oversky would be the best foreign player hands down, he makes nothing at a progamer house, he could've made at the very least 500$+ a month being the best foreigner.
You're coming off as awfully aggressive (I lose? What have I ever lost?) for no apparent reason. Your trumpeting of Free ignores the fact that he was the *worst-paid* pro-gamers at the time, and that his salary was anomalous - ie it was raised significantly after that year. So what if Free made jack? Does that mean all Korean pro-gamers make jack? Because last I checked, Bisu and Flash were pulling in a quarter million in salary alone. Which foreigner has that kind of salary? Name one.
Yet your biggest flaw is that YOU have no idea what you are talking about while accusing me of this. First you stated that bw mYm and RoX existed 8 years ago, now Ace becomes a chinese player. Aside from f91 you can name Pj, Lx, Super, Leilei, Fengzi etc. You forgot 2 most accomplished chinese players lmao. Nuff said, bye.
I love how you focus on the little details - like taking my sarcasm regarding MYM and Rox and turning it into a straw man (and by the way - Ace is a current Chinese pro-gamer; there also happens to be another pro-gamer named Ace, who's not Chinese) - while ignoring the bigger picture. Nuff said? Indeed. You have demonstrated that you don't really have an argument or evidence to back it up, because most everyone in the foreigner's scene know that the salaries and opportunities they have are not anywhere comparable to those available in Korea.
By the way, nice job there naming all of SIX Chinese SC pro-gamers (though you failed to say anything about the team that sponsors them - I wonder why?)
Anyways, I don't know why you got into this debate in the first place. If your point is that Korean SC pro-gamers have less compensation, financially or career-wise, than foreigner SC pro-gamers, I don't think anyone rational actually believes that. How many foreigners pull in salaries like Savior's, Nada's, or Bisu's? How many of them have ever gone on national TV? There's a reason Artosis believes that Korea is *the* place to be for anyone serious about SC pro-gaming, and why so many foreigners actually tried to go there, despite the huge social, cultural, and linguistic burdens this imposed, and it certainly isn't because he thinks Korea has less opportunities and financial rewards for SC pro-gaming than the foreigner scene.
Once again, prove - with numbers or sources - that "there's more money in it for foreigners than Koreans," as you originally claimed. Otherwise, you're just talking hot air.
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well why r we talking about money right here xd, im pretty eu players makes the most profit out of sc2 right now but that doesnt mean we r best. most of us r inactive including myself (hell i didnt play much in like 4 weeks now) just waiting for the game to get more balanced
i bet the koreans r massgaming alot more than we r and i bet they r 10 times better than us too because the top players of europe r ppl with 50 games per week practice
also im 100% positive t is worst race right now. EU players like lucifron only manages to win because the zergs we have practice too little so they dont have experience beating his rush luck builds. whenever a top terran does something twice he has lost while zerg players play same all the time. it clearly shows that t can only win by luck or surprise while zerg win whenever hes playing decent imo. ive tried pretty much every single fe build possible and game composition in all points of the game rather than spent my time rushing and winning tournaments and i promise u, zerg own t by far
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On May 05 2010 00:37 MorroW wrote:
also im 100% positive t is worst race right now. EU players like lucifron only manages to win because the zergs we have practice too little so they dont have experience beating his rush luck builds. whenever a top terran does something twice he has lost while zerg players play same all the time. it clearly shows that t can only win by luck or surprise while zerg win whenever hes playing decent imo. ive tried pretty much every single fe build possible and game composition in all points of the game rather than spent my time rushing and winning tournaments and i promise u, zerg own t by far
That seem to be the general theme from Asia right now.
Zerg plays the game.
Terran has little chance, but tries to cheese/rush/timing attack and win.
Protoss has a better chance, but still has to cheese/rush/timing attack and win.
And the ones who QQ the most here in EU and NA? Zerg. Fascinating!
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A few things
Asian metagame is behind EU metagame (as in, knowledge of what build orders and stuff are good). This is the main reason, their protoss and terran players are simply behind on build orders and general gameplay transitions
Secondly
Zerg macro seems slightly stronger than the other two races
But its mostly the first reason
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On May 03 2010 17:45 cartoon]x wrote:
Probably koreans are trying to play zerg in a macro game with toss and terran, and getting massively outdroned. You have to apply pressure to zerg ... They are plenty beatable - we've seen it happen in replays.
That's the problem... their micro is good enough to outplay the early harass and they can force most games into a macro style of play because of their scouting and insane micro. Then once it hits late game they just MACROMACROMACRO.
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On May 05 2010 01:07 BrTarolg wrote:
A few things
Asian metagame is behind EU metagame (as in, knowledge of what build orders and stuff are good). This is the main reason, their protoss and terran players are simply behind on build orders and general gameplay transitions
Secondly
Zerg macro seems slightly stronger than the other two races
But its mostly the first reason
Not sure where you're getting that. I'll grant you i've seen some puzzling builds from Asian replays, but for the most part, the toss at least, they seem familiar. It's pretty hard to screw up a timing push. Of course, if the push doesn't work, they're in trouble (I assume the same is true with TvZ) and the transitions might be hurting them here.
I don't think it's true they're somehow way behind on strategy and just getting by on insane macro play.
Zerg probably are slightly stronger, in general, than the other two races once you learn to stop most of the timing pushes you'll get from P and T.
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On May 05 2010 00:37 MorroW wrote:
well why r we talking about money right here xd, im pretty eu players makes the most profit out of sc2 right now but that doesnt mean we r best. most of us r inactive including myself (hell i didnt play much in like 4 weeks now) just waiting for the game to get more balanced
i bet the koreans r massgaming alot more than we r and i bet they r 10 times better than us too because the top players of europe r ppl with 50 games per week practice
also im 100% positive t is worst race right now. EU players like lucifron only manages to win because the zergs we have practice too little so they dont have experience beating his rush luck builds. whenever a top terran does something twice he has lost while zerg players play same all the time. it clearly shows that t can only win by luck or surprise while zerg win whenever hes playing decent imo. ive tried pretty much every single fe build possible and game composition in all points of the game rather than spent my time rushing and winning tournaments and i promise u, zerg own t by far
Actually, in terms of money we were talking about SC 1, not SC 2. I'm sure EU/US players make the most money from SC 2, right now, since KESPA isn't paying anyone to play SC 2 (except, apparently, Idra). This also has to do with why there are more visible tournaments and names in the EU/US SC 2 scene, than there are elsewhere.
For this reason, I'm not sure I believe your argument about Korean SC 2 players at the moment. Top Korean Zergs like Fruit Seller, Freedom, and Check have a lot of games under their belt, but are still basically hobbyists rather than professionals. Fruit Seller, for example, had only about 250 games (~2300 rating) a few weeks back. That's not dramatically more than what many top Plat players in the US and EU had: http://sc2ranks.heroku.com/ So I wouldn't exactly agree with the idea that the Korean Zergs have been mass gaming in a way unmatched by foreigners.
But in the long-term, if KESPA ever gets around to supporting SC 2, I do expect to see a drastic difference, and that's when the Korean scene will really pull ahead.
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On May 04 2010 11:48 VarsityUser wrote:
This is just side-talk... Korean z's are not better than usa/europeans atm. in fact I think they play stubborn and worse. I haven't lost vs a single zerg as terran in probably 15 games. If korean t's cant figure out the formula its sad. Anyone wanting to see the strats I use PM me or ask for link.
True Bonjwa right here.
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On May 05 2010 01:07 BrTarolg wrote:
A few things
Asian metagame is behind EU metagame (as in, knowledge of what build orders and stuff are good). This is the main reason, their protoss and terran players are simply behind on build orders and general gameplay transitions
Secondly
Zerg macro seems slightly stronger than the other two races
But its mostly the first reason
Freedom not even the top zerg.. just one of the best, and demuslim got destroyed 3-1 >> so ye gg to that
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I think that as long as the servers are segregated from each other, actually balancing the game will be extremely difficult. Also, unless we get the top Asian players and US/EU players playing together, we won't truly be able to tell who the top players are, and, as a result, what the best race is.
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I'm not 100% sure that the koreans are more skilled in SC2 than NA/EU
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On May 05 2010 00:37 MorroW wrote:
also im 100% positive t is worst race right now. EU players like lucifron only manages to win because the zergs we have practice too little so they dont have experience beating his rush luck builds. whenever a top terran does something twice he has lost while zerg players play same all the time. it clearly shows that t can only win by luck or surprise while zerg win whenever hes playing decent imo. ive tried pretty much every single fe build possible and game composition in all points of the game rather than spent my time rushing and winning tournaments and i promise u, zerg own t by far
This is my experience as well. I've tried all sorts of builds and tactics but nothing feels safe and solid. The only play I can get to work is pure mech play with tank/thor/hellion into vikings. The problem is getting the timing attacks before broodlords are out. However, a lot of maps are not conducive to mech play.
Bio is not viable until they fix the baneling problem.
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has anyone thought to figure that the asian terran and protoss are not at lvl of EU and NA ?
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On May 10 2010 16:21 Oodama wrote:
has anyone thought to figure that the asian terran and protoss are not at lvl of EU and NA ?
Yeah, I've said it many times over, as well as others, but people (and Blizzard) still seem to believe that Koreans are inherently better than the rest of us, despite the fact that this is a new game. Granted, it has MANY similarities to BW, but it is actually a new game.
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On May 04 2010 11:48 VarsityUser wrote:
This is just side-talk... Korean z's are not better than usa/europeans atm. in fact I think they play stubborn and worse. I haven't lost vs a single zerg as terran in probably 15 games. If korean t's cant figure out the formula its sad. Anyone wanting to see the strats I use PM me or ask for link.
Are you playing on the Asia server? Your location says United States...
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On May 03 2010 16:27 teamsolid wrote:
Example of Korean Zergs --> watch Idra or Artosis play Z. Very solid macro oriented play (Machine also plays similar style, though he is US), usually based on outproducing their opponent rather than cheesing, etc.
I think that is the key to having really great success with Zerg.
If you compare the units of each race you will notice, that Zerg units may be nice and powerful, they usually require A LOT to make things happen. An example:
- To one-shot a Roach you need just three Immortals and that is very little "attack space".
- To one-shot an immortal you need 23 Roaches.
Now you might argue that these numbers arent equal in resources, but that is not the point. The real point is that the tougher / more expensive units usually survive the battle and can fight again. As a Zerg you have pretty weak units - individually speaking - and require swarms of units to overrun the opposition. For this you need three resources: Minerals, Gas and Larvae.
Securing many expansions is pretty easy for Zerg, because they have the toughest static defense and it is mobile as well. You can also heal this "building" instantly with a queen to keep it alive during a battle, something the other two races cant do. Spine Crawlers are neat to defend choke points against a regular infantry attack, but once you enter the mid-game they might be outranged by Siege Tanks and Colossi. They even have a bigger range and higher rate of fire than a Planetary Fortress ... Even though it takes a lot of time to build a Spine Crawler you can determine how many you will need with your scouting of the opponent. Getting an extra queen or two isnt a bad idea either, since there are many air attack strategies AND you may want to save up some energy on them for Transfusion or Creep Tumors.
The problem for most Zerg players is that they have only one mindset: "I must be aggressive" and dont like playing defensively early on. This still works most of the time, but it isnt ideal for the race. Players like IdrA and Artosis demonstrate it very nicely each time that it is much better to start pretty defensively and "macro up" and only then switch to aggression when you can replace your losses almost instantly and go for a contain and killing blow.
IMO Zerg have the least requirement for planning, since their units have only a minute amount of bonus damage, so they are good overall against everything. Thus you dont have to bother with really needing hard counters only with avoiding the enemies hard counters to your units. Zerg are consequently the easiest race to play well with IMO if you can control your urge to win in less than 10 minutes ...
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On May 10 2010 22:10 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 16:27 teamsolid wrote:
Example of Korean Zergs --> watch Idra or Artosis play Z. Very solid macro oriented play (Machine also plays similar style, though he is US), usually based on outproducing their opponent rather than cheesing, etc. I think that is the key to having really great success with Zerg. If you compare the units of each race you will notice, that Zerg units may be nice and powerful, they usually require A LOT to make things happen. An example: - To one-shot a Roach you need just three Immortals and that is very little "attack space". - To one-shot an immortal you need 23 Roaches.
Are you serious here? Why would you use a unit that is completely unique and unlike any other when it comes to taking damage as your comparison for how many of x unit you need to one shot y, and base your argument of zerg needing "a lot to make things happen" on that. Why would comparing how many units it takes to one shot something even if you didn't choose the most moronic comparison outside of an air unit that can't hit ground even prove anything about either race
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I saw Artosis playing in go4wc3 on europe server. And i have to say he wasnt good at all. No way he could actually win or go deep in go4. Very weird and 100% not working buildorders vs good opponents.
When he played vs a decent opponent who exploited his bo he was absolutely without a chance.
He simply left without saying gg. And he bitched at twitter that he was "owned by a noob" lol while he was definitely the one who was outplayed there. He lost to a guy who already won vs dimaga and TLO and other players of that level so he definitely didnt loose vs a noob.
I think overall the good mechanics are a bit overrated its alot about adepting in sc2 this is not bw. The replays of the "top asian" zergs werent very impressive either. While there are certainly exceptions like freedom.werra who is ahead of the curve.
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On May 10 2010 22:40 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 22:10 Rabiator wrote:On May 03 2010 16:27 teamsolid wrote:
Example of Korean Zergs --> watch Idra or Artosis play Z. Very solid macro oriented play (Machine also plays similar style, though he is US), usually based on outproducing their opponent rather than cheesing, etc. I think that is the key to having really great success with Zerg. If you compare the units of each race you will notice, that Zerg units may be nice and powerful, they usually require A LOT to make things happen. An example: - To one-shot a Roach you need just three Immortals and that is very little "attack space". - To one-shot an immortal you need 23 Roaches. Are you serious here? Why would you use a unit that is completely unique and unlike any other when it comes to taking damage as your comparison for how many of x unit you need to one shot y, and base your argument of zerg needing "a lot to make things happen" on that. Why would comparing how many units it takes to one shot something even if you didn't choose the most moronic comparison outside of an air unit that can't hit ground even prove anything about either race
Yes I am serious, but maybe I failed in explaining my thoughts clear enough. Lets try it again:
- Protoss needs less attack space to deal the same damage. (Using the Immortal vs Roach example was taking it to the extreme, but it works the same way for Zealot vs Zerglings and we see the result every time in PvZ in the early Zealot aggression ... Zerglings NEED to surround or they wont kill the Zealots)
- Concentrated firepower will always give you an advantage over spread out firepower.
- As a result an agile Protoss can ALWAYS nibble at the army of a Zerg and kill units without losing the same value of resources himself.
- Consequently the Zerg will have to replace parts of his army more often than the Protoss and therefore he needs more bases to mine more resources.
- Since you already need to get more resources you might as well go "over the top" with it to get an advantage which other races will have problems of keeping up with.
- Thus: Macroing Zerg = easy win with 1a2a3a in the end since it almost doesnt matter how much you lose ...
I hope that helps clearing up the simple logic.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 04 2010 15:36 condoriano wrote:
I'm not going to dig out Artosis interviews, I simply feel that what I'm providing is more than enough. He said while casting TSL that JF made more money off bw than some of the progamers.
Neither him nor Nony ever said anything about progamer salary for those who don't even make A teams roster. Your quotes are irrelevant, you lose again. Free making 8k a year - that's 167$ a week payed to one of the top players on his team (he sure was one in 2008) Just to give you an idea, someone like oversky would be the best foreign player hands down, he makes nothing at a progamer house, he could've made at the very least 500$+ a month being the best foreigner.
That was back when the Stars were sponsored by Hanbit. Since they got sponsored by Woongjin, they got a brand new dorm. Free got his salary upgraded to what team pays their aces.
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On May 10 2010 16:04 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 00:37 MorroW wrote:
also im 100% positive t is worst race right now. EU players like lucifron only manages to win because the zergs we have practice too little so they dont have experience beating his rush luck builds. whenever a top terran does something twice he has lost while zerg players play same all the time. it clearly shows that t can only win by luck or surprise while zerg win whenever hes playing decent imo. ive tried pretty much every single fe build possible and game composition in all points of the game rather than spent my time rushing and winning tournaments and i promise u, zerg own t by far This is my experience as well. I've tried all sorts of builds and tactics but nothing feels safe and solid. The only play I can get to work is pure mech play with tank/thor/hellion into vikings. The problem is getting the timing attacks before broodlords are out. However, a lot of maps are not conducive to mech play. Bio is not viable until they fix the baneling problem.
Mech vs Z works if you are good and play it sc1 style.
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Germany886 Posts
On May 10 2010 16:21 Oodama wrote:
has anyone thought to figure that the asian terran and protoss are not at lvl of EU and NA ?
Well lets say it kinda feels unlikely given the experience Asian players in general do have with Broodwar and partially Warcraft 3.
Also, from what I've seen in replays so far, those guys max out their builds and every single units effectiviness more than almost any western player does. And I do not really believe that they have weaker tactics in general.
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Maybe the reason we think they have "weird" builds is because their metagame has evolved completely differently from ours? >.>
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Korean metagame just allows for every Zerg to play a macro build, which is where they shine.
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EPT
