EPTKorean Zerg - What's the difference - Page 8
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
italiangymnast
United States246 Posts
| ||
|
Triik
Canada51 Posts
On May 04 2010 11:48 VarsityUser wrote: This is just side-talk... Korean z's are not better than usa/europeans atm. in fact I think they play stubborn and worse. I haven't lost vs a single zerg as terran in probably 15 games. If korean t's cant figure out the formula its sad. Anyone wanting to see the strats I use PM me or ask for link. wow that is a very bold statement... | ||
|
shinosai
United States1577 Posts
Honestly, I find it fascinating to see the game develop differently in Korea vs euro/us, but I don't think we will be able to know which type of play is better except in tournaments. What works in Korea on ladder may not work as well on US ladder, and vice versa. | ||
|
Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On May 04 2010 07:05 condoriano wrote: You are the one speculating, first you said they were paid 8 years ago, now you are asking me to prove that players get paid. Basically you are pulling things out of your ass. No, they switched teams because of a nicer tag or an extra mousepad. Do you even believe yourself? I claim that foreigners do not earn comparable salaries to Koreans playing SC or have comparable opportunities for career advancement. I was likewise skeptical of your claim that teams like MYM have paid salaries to SC players in a long time, so I asked you to provide evidence for it. My main point is supported by several foreigner pros who've come out and made the same point, long before me. What have you got to contradict this? The fact that foreigners sometimes switched teams, for whatever reason? Ridiculous... You pulled out another one. Where did nony or artosis said that? Artosis: The Korean eSports system is based on completely different things than the rest of the world. In Korea, every eSports team is simply a marketing cost which doesn’t generate actual money. Outside of Korea, all the professional teams have a bottom line and have to make money. This makes Korean teams able to give out really large salaries to multiple people, which is a nice change. Another thing the Korean scene has going for it is that its all connected to each other, and on TV. The non-Korean scene has fragmented tournaments with fragmented coverage, which makes the growth a lot slower. There are lots of other differences too, but I’ll leave those for another time. Source: http://fnatic.com/feature/7165/Artosis-I-dona-t-want-to-join-a-Korean-team.html Nony: Wasieleski also points out that whether the rest of the world will be on an even keel with Korea depends on how many non-Koreans can get decent salaries. "If other countries had over 1,000 people trying to be a progamer and the country's best 300 players living in progamer houses practicing full time, then they'd have a chance. Personally I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if the US has even 25 people earning living wages for playing SC2 full time, People love to hear about the huge prize pools at tournaments, but what E-Sports really needs is $30k+ salaries for players." Source: http://www.gosugamers.net/general/news/11696-nony-e-sports-need-30k-salaries-for-players Do you not understand? You are just repeating same ridiculous nonsense about career and opportunity, which has no connection with reality. Chinese players did not want to play in Korea BECAUSE THEY MAKE MORE IN CHINA. And they don't have to follow a strict regimen. Actually, I'm repeating what pro-gamers in the foreigner scene have said, and been saying. I don't think you know more than them. Do you? Also, you keep using China as an example, without realizing that no one actually has in-depth knowledge of what China's pro scene is like. They do have a fairly considerable presence on WC 3 and DOTA, but in SC, outside of a handful of players like F91 and Ace, who can you really name? It's not like what Korea has, with its twelve pro-teams, youth recruitment drives (almost all the Chinese players are old timers), and dedicated corporate leagues. If anything, China's SC pro scene appears a lot closer to Europe's and America's than Korea's, with some above average players and tourneys, but no real ability to expand or grow. That's only contrary in your imagination, I said specifically given the level of competition in Korea it's nearly impossible to make money off playing bw compared to foreign tournaments where someone like Ace or Dimaga can get sponsored on a regular basis playing for a team and win a few tournaments here and there being a relative newcomer to the scene. If you are going to repeat the nonsense again I simply won't answer. Then don't answer. It's clear that you have no idea about the actual scene, seeing as you haven't even been able to cite one source supporting your statements. It's so much harder to be a SC pro-gamer in Korea? Then explain why there are so many more SC Korean pro-gamers compared to other countries? Clearly there are more slots for top gamers in Korea than in China or Europe or the US - you can tell just from the number of Korean teams with money to support full-time SC gamers, versus the number of EU teams, US teams, and Chinese teams. In fact, how many money-paying EU, US, and Chinese pro-teams can you name? I sure as heck can name a lot of Korean teams. If the foreigner SC scene has as much money and opportunities in it as the Korean scene, then surely there should be comparable employment? | ||
|
EGLzGaMeR
United States1867 Posts
 | ||
|
Sent
United States120 Posts
On May 04 2010 11:48 VarsityUser wrote: This is just side-talk... Korean z's are not better than usa/europeans atm. in fact I think they play stubborn and worse. I haven't lost vs a single zerg as terran in probably 15 games. If korean t's cant figure out the formula its sad. Anyone wanting to see the strats I use PM me or ask for link. Talk about flawed logic, but ok | ||
|
Chupacabra(UCSD)
Mexico225 Posts
and anyways... I feel like this is more of a way to indirectly say someone else's race is IMBA. You see Zerg is good you guys just aren't playing them right! NOOOO The Koreans just aren't playing Protoss and Terran right! As say Lord Diablo. But that's just me >.< | ||
|
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
| ||
|
condoriano
United States826 Posts
On May 04 2010 12:57 Azarkon wrote: I claim that foreigners do not earn comparable salaries to Koreans playing SC or have comparable opportunities for career advancement. I was likewise skeptical of your claim that teams like MYM have paid salaries to SC players in a long time, so I asked you to provide evidence for it. My main point is supported by several foreigner pros who've come out and made the same point, long before me. What have you got to contradict this? The fact that foreigners sometimes switched teams, for whatever reason? Ridiculous... I'll be short this time because it's the last one. I posted Morrows comment from gg.net (I won't waste more time searching for more info since this is enough) Reread the quote, he directly mentions top foreign teams acquiring ppl because they can offer more money. He knows because he's one of the top european players. That comment is ~9 months old. You flat out lose here (which was the basis of the whole argument btw) Artosis: The Korean eSports system is based on completely different things than the rest of the world. In Korea, every eSports team is simply a marketing cost which doesn’t generate actual money. Outside of Korea, all the professional teams have a bottom line and have to make money. This makes Korean teams able to give out really large salaries to multiple people, which is a nice change. Another thing the Korean scene has going for it is that its all connected to each other, and on TV. The non-Korean scene has fragmented tournaments with fragmented coverage, which makes the growth a lot slower. There are lots of other differences too, but I’ll leave those for another time. Nony: Wasieleski also points out that whether the rest of the world will be on an even keel with Korea depends on how many non-Koreans can get decent salaries. "If other countries had over 1,000 people trying to be a progamer and the country's best 300 players living in progamer houses practicing full time, then they'd have a chance. Personally I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if the US has even 25 people earning living wages for playing SC2 full time, People love to hear about the huge prize pools at tournaments, but what E-Sports really needs is $30k+ salaries for players." Where did they mention anything about low tier progamers being able to make money? Why are you posting this, what have you proven? Nony saying that progamers should make 30k a year is already suggesting more than many top korean pros make. This is no evidence of what you've implied. Here's a simple TL search on progamer salary, read this thread Manifesto7 Osaka. December 29 2008 21:01. Posts 18736 PM Profile Blog Quote # Totally wrong. Last year Free was making 6k... a YEAR. Players who are not on the A team earn room and board, and MAYBE an allowance. Unless you are making those appearance fees, you aren't getting any significant salary. ondik Czech Republic. December 29 2008 22:02. Posts 673 PM Profile Blog Quote # Remember interview with Oversky? Even with accomodation and food being payed he doesn't earn anything with which he could allow himself some nights out or a holiday. I know that it may be different case because he's in ACE, but I don't think B-players earn anything more in other teams. Tough life. I'm not going to dig out Artosis interviews, I simply feel that what I'm providing is more than enough. He said while casting TSL that JF made more money off bw than some of the progamers. Neither him nor Nony ever said anything about progamer salary for those who don't even make A teams roster. Your quotes are irrelevant, you lose again. Free making 8k a year - that's 167$ a week payed to one of the top players on his team (he sure was one in 2008) Just to give you an idea, someone like oversky would be the best foreign player hands down, he makes nothing at a progamer house, he could've made at the very least 500$+ a month being the best foreigner. Actually, I'm repeating what pro-gamers in the foreigner scene have said, and been saying. I don't think you know more than them. Do you? Also, you keep using China as an example, without realizing that no one actually has in-depth knowledge of what China's pro scene is like. They do have a fairly considerable presence on WC 3 and DOTA, but in SC, outside of a handful of players like F91 and Ace, who can you really name? It's not like what Korea has, with its twelve pro-teams, youth recruitment drives (almost all the Chinese players are old timers), and dedicated corporate leagues. If anything, China's SC pro scene appears a lot closer to Europe's and America's than Korea's, with some above average players and tourneys, but no real ability to expand or grow. Then don't answer. It's clear that you have no idea about the actual scene, seeing as you haven't even been able to cite one source supporting your statements. Yet your biggest flaw is that YOU have no idea what you are talking about while accusing me of this. First you stated that bw mYm and RoX existed 8 years ago, now Ace becomes a chinese player. Aside from f91 you can name Pj, Lx, Super, Leilei, Fengzi etc. You forgot 2 most accomplished chinese players lmao. Nuff said, bye. | ||
|
Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On May 04 2010 15:36 condoriano wrote: I'll be short this time because it's the last one. I posted Morrows comment from gg.net (I won't waste more time searching for more info since this is enough) Reread the quote, he directly mentions top foreign teams acquiring ppl because they can offer more money. He knows because he's one of the top european players. That comment is ~9 months old. You flat out lose here (which was the basis of the whole argument btw) You're changing the argument. Here's what you quoted. "i think the problem is that we have too few top players. ofcourse the teams with most money r gonna get the best players, but if there were more players i dont think they could afford to take everybody in. i still think no team is "undefeatable" for now, and besides it doesnt matter alot since sc2 is comming so soon now ^^" Where does it say that teams are offering salaries? All it says is that, relative to each other, teams with more money take in better players, which could simply mean that they offer better sign-on bonuses or tournament sponsorship. My point has always been that the salaries and opportunities here are not comparable to those in Korea, which is a direct counter to your (original) claim that foreigners make more money. Morrow's comment doesn't even begin to suggest that he thinks otherwise. Where did they mention anything about low tier progamers being able to make money? Why are you posting this, what have you proven? Nony saying that progamers should make 30k a year is already suggesting more than many top korean pros make. This is no evidence of what you've implied. Here's a simple TL search on progamer salary, read this thread I don't know what world you live in, but room, board, and allowance are decent compensation for failing to do anything significant other than winning Courage. A comparable salary in the West would be in the $10,000-$20,000 range, because that's the living costs associated with having room, board, and allowance unless you live in your parent's basement, which most people in the West do not do. From this perspective, Nony's suggestion of $30k is more than reasonable. $30k is the sort of money you make being a blue-collar worker. No one's going to choose pro-gaming as a life-style choice in the West if you can't at least live like a blue-collar worker. As for Free, you realize his salary (not counting room & board) went up to $10,000+ recently, right? I'm not going to dig out Artosis interviews, I simply feel that what I'm providing is more than enough. He said while casting TSL that JF made more money off bw than some of the progamers. JF made more money off BW during the one or two year period when he was winning tournaments left and right. I don't know if you remember this, but JF was at the top of the foreigner scene around the time he won the first TSL. There is only one JF - and only one possible JF - at a time. For every JF, Korea has a hundred A-teamers. You don't have a scene with just one player. Just because one player in the foreigner's scene made more money during his time of dominance than "some" pro-gamers, does not make pro-gaming careers sustainable in the West. Where is JF now, I ask you? Cause he's certainly not pro-gaming anymore. Neither him nor Nony ever said anything about progamer salary for those who don't even make A teams roster. Your quotes are irrelevant, you lose again. Free making 8k a year - that's 167$ a week payed to one of the top players on his team (he sure was one in 2008) Just to give you an idea, someone like oversky would be the best foreign player hands down, he makes nothing at a progamer house, he could've made at the very least 500$+ a month being the best foreigner. You're coming off as awfully aggressive (I lose? What have I ever lost?) for no apparent reason. Your trumpeting of Free ignores the fact that he was the *worst-paid* pro-gamers at the time, and that his salary was anomalous - ie it was raised significantly after that year. So what if Free made jack? Does that mean all Korean pro-gamers make jack? Because last I checked, Bisu and Flash were pulling in a quarter million in salary alone. Which foreigner has that kind of salary? Name one. Yet your biggest flaw is that YOU have no idea what you are talking about while accusing me of this. First you stated that bw mYm and RoX existed 8 years ago, now Ace becomes a chinese player. Aside from f91 you can name Pj, Lx, Super, Leilei, Fengzi etc. You forgot 2 most accomplished chinese players lmao. Nuff said, bye. I love how you focus on the little details - like taking my sarcasm regarding MYM and Rox and turning it into a straw man (and by the way - Ace is a current Chinese pro-gamer; there also happens to be another pro-gamer named Ace, who's not Chinese) - while ignoring the bigger picture. Nuff said? Indeed. You have demonstrated that you don't really have an argument or evidence to back it up, because most everyone in the foreigner's scene know that the salaries and opportunities they have are not anywhere comparable to those available in Korea. By the way, nice job there naming all of SIX Chinese SC pro-gamers (though you failed to say anything about the team that sponsors them - I wonder why?) Anyways, I don't know why you got into this debate in the first place. If your point is that Korean SC pro-gamers have less compensation, financially or career-wise, than foreigner SC pro-gamers, I don't think anyone rational actually believes that. How many foreigners pull in salaries like Savior's, Nada's, or Bisu's? How many of them have ever gone on national TV? There's a reason Artosis believes that Korea is *the* place to be for anyone serious about SC pro-gaming, and why so many foreigners actually tried to go there, despite the huge social, cultural, and linguistic burdens this imposed, and it certainly isn't because he thinks Korea has less opportunities and financial rewards for SC pro-gaming than the foreigner scene. Once again, prove - with numbers or sources - that "there's more money in it for foreigners than Koreans," as you originally claimed. Otherwise, you're just talking hot air. | ||
|
MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
i bet the koreans r massgaming alot more than we r and i bet they r 10 times better than us too because the top players of europe r ppl with 50 games per week practice also im 100% positive t is worst race right now. EU players like lucifron only manages to win because the zergs we have practice too little so they dont have experience beating his rush luck builds. whenever a top terran does something twice he has lost while zerg players play same all the time. it clearly shows that t can only win by luck or surprise while zerg win whenever hes playing decent imo. ive tried pretty much every single fe build possible and game composition in all points of the game rather than spent my time rushing and winning tournaments and i promise u, zerg own t by far | ||
|
WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On May 05 2010 00:37 MorroW wrote: also im 100% positive t is worst race right now. EU players like lucifron only manages to win because the zergs we have practice too little so they dont have experience beating his rush luck builds. whenever a top terran does something twice he has lost while zerg players play same all the time. it clearly shows that t can only win by luck or surprise while zerg win whenever hes playing decent imo. ive tried pretty much every single fe build possible and game composition in all points of the game rather than spent my time rushing and winning tournaments and i promise u, zerg own t by far That seem to be the general theme from Asia right now. Zerg plays the game. Terran has little chance, but tries to cheese/rush/timing attack and win. Protoss has a better chance, but still has to cheese/rush/timing attack and win. And the ones who QQ the most here in EU and NA? Zerg. Fascinating! | ||
|
BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
Asian metagame is behind EU metagame (as in, knowledge of what build orders and stuff are good). This is the main reason, their protoss and terran players are simply behind on build orders and general gameplay transitions Secondly Zerg macro seems slightly stronger than the other two races But its mostly the first reason | ||
|
Prisom
United States83 Posts
On May 03 2010 17:45 cartoon]x wrote: Probably koreans are trying to play zerg in a macro game with toss and terran, and getting massively outdroned. You have to apply pressure to zerg ... They are plenty beatable - we've seen it happen in replays. That's the problem... their micro is good enough to outplay the early harass and they can force most games into a macro style of play because of their scouting and insane micro. Then once it hits late game they just MACROMACROMACRO. | ||
|
WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On May 05 2010 01:07 BrTarolg wrote: A few things Asian metagame is behind EU metagame (as in, knowledge of what build orders and stuff are good). This is the main reason, their protoss and terran players are simply behind on build orders and general gameplay transitions Secondly Zerg macro seems slightly stronger than the other two races But its mostly the first reason Not sure where you're getting that. I'll grant you i've seen some puzzling builds from Asian replays, but for the most part, the toss at least, they seem familiar. It's pretty hard to screw up a timing push. Of course, if the push doesn't work, they're in trouble (I assume the same is true with TvZ) and the transitions might be hurting them here. I don't think it's true they're somehow way behind on strategy and just getting by on insane macro play. Zerg probably are slightly stronger, in general, than the other two races once you learn to stop most of the timing pushes you'll get from P and T. | ||
|
Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On May 05 2010 00:37 MorroW wrote: well why r we talking about money right here xd, im pretty eu players makes the most profit out of sc2 right now but that doesnt mean we r best. most of us r inactive including myself (hell i didnt play much in like 4 weeks now) just waiting for the game to get more balanced i bet the koreans r massgaming alot more than we r and i bet they r 10 times better than us too because the top players of europe r ppl with 50 games per week practice also im 100% positive t is worst race right now. EU players like lucifron only manages to win because the zergs we have practice too little so they dont have experience beating his rush luck builds. whenever a top terran does something twice he has lost while zerg players play same all the time. it clearly shows that t can only win by luck or surprise while zerg win whenever hes playing decent imo. ive tried pretty much every single fe build possible and game composition in all points of the game rather than spent my time rushing and winning tournaments and i promise u, zerg own t by far Actually, in terms of money we were talking about SC 1, not SC 2. I'm sure EU/US players make the most money from SC 2, right now, since KESPA isn't paying anyone to play SC 2 (except, apparently, Idra). This also has to do with why there are more visible tournaments and names in the EU/US SC 2 scene, than there are elsewhere. For this reason, I'm not sure I believe your argument about Korean SC 2 players at the moment. Top Korean Zergs like Fruit Seller, Freedom, and Check have a lot of games under their belt, but are still basically hobbyists rather than professionals. Fruit Seller, for example, had only about 250 games (~2300 rating) a few weeks back. That's not dramatically more than what many top Plat players in the US and EU had: http://sc2ranks.heroku.com/ So I wouldn't exactly agree with the idea that the Korean Zergs have been mass gaming in a way unmatched by foreigners. But in the long-term, if KESPA ever gets around to supporting SC 2, I do expect to see a drastic difference, and that's when the Korean scene will really pull ahead. | ||
|
Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
On May 04 2010 11:48 VarsityUser wrote: This is just side-talk... Korean z's are not better than usa/europeans atm. in fact I think they play stubborn and worse. I haven't lost vs a single zerg as terran in probably 15 games. If korean t's cant figure out the formula its sad. Anyone wanting to see the strats I use PM me or ask for link. True Bonjwa right here. | ||
|
PaddyPower
United Kingdom82 Posts
On May 05 2010 01:07 BrTarolg wrote: A few things Asian metagame is behind EU metagame (as in, knowledge of what build orders and stuff are good). This is the main reason, their protoss and terran players are simply behind on build orders and general gameplay transitions Secondly Zerg macro seems slightly stronger than the other two races But its mostly the first reason Freedom not even the top zerg.. just one of the best, and demuslim got destroyed 3-1 >> so ye gg to that | ||
|
ryanAnger
United States838 Posts
| ||
|
DrTossRulezz
United States45 Posts
| ||
| ||
