|
On July 22 2011 10:16 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:05 zeru wrote:
The biased moderation by wheat made me a bit angry tbh. I know he's backed by EG and all but come on, that was a bit too much and obvious. He's backed by common sense. Puma is a free man, who was being paid nothing.... Milkes would have the "community" have a say in what Puma does. Its called communism... and in some extreme case (if people like Milkes ever get into power) totalitarianism. Alex and Wheat have just been around and know that the "world" doesn't work like that. Free market.... welcome to 1920. Sorry if feelings get hurt, but there's no crying in SC2 or business. (also... why should EG apologize to GOM? How are they effected?)
Not about the puma issue but how he interrupted Milkis every single time
|
On July 22 2011 10:06 101998 wrote:
I like how Alex sounds calm and collected and Milkis sounds emotional and borderline psychotic. Wheat is cutting Milkis off because he is going on defensive rants rather than having a conversation about the topic. Rants don't move a conversation anywhere.
The tone of your voice has nothing to do with whether you are correct or not. Milkis might sound more emotional but that does absolutely not mean that he is incorrect. Alex doesn't, probably only because he has taken lessons or done a lot of similar stuff. If you actually study Alex's argumentation instead of listen to his soothing voice, it is completely nonsensical.
Milkis can talk about how he isn't a journalist but all he is doing is showing is ignorance to how much influence he has in the community. Being the dude that translates stuff means you are in the spotlight and your opinions hold weight. If he can't understand what that means or doesn't want to take responsibility for what he says then he needs to shut the fuck up.
No, you need to shut the fuck up as you have no idea what you are talking about. Milkis is part of an internet community, not a newspaper. The work he does is 100% voluntary; it is not even 'work'. He is completely entitled to his own opinions, and voicing them on this forum as any other member.
Following Alex's argumentation, anyone who posts on this forum is a journalist and is required to post both sides of any story. You failed to do so, ironically, so if we are logically consistent you should now be pissed at yourself as well. Alex even said the same of Milkis' personal tweets.
People are personally responsible for what they post on Twitter and forums such as Team Liquid. They do not carry the responsibility of anyone else; they do not have to back up every statement with evidence nor do they have to present multiple sides of any situation. Members are not journalists.
|
On July 22 2011 10:05 dicedicerevolution wrote:
Alex brought up a very valid point in calling forum posts and threads on TL.net (more often than not in the community news section) as journalism. It may not be journalism in name, but in terms of impact on the community itself (both the readers, posters, professional organizations and players involved), it is indistinguishable from actual journalism. There is actual money involved, and to say that the future of eSports is at stake isn't an understatement considering how all of this is still being "figured out" and how the ramifications can be so grave if "shit isn't sorted out."
While Milkis also makes a very valid point of "this is sort of responsibility is beyond my pay-grade," there's no escaping the actual influence he has (which is exactly what Alex points out is an attribute of journalism). To make an extreme example (and I will say explicitly isn't a reference to anything imagined or otherwise), it would be possible for a TL.net poster to make a libelous claim which later becomes revealed to be false, but the damage already being done and irreversible to an extent. The recourse for the individuals being wrong in such a case of libel would have little to no recourse beyond an honor system of sorts (a public apology, etc.). Even in an instance of a less malevolent example of say, simple incompetence, the damage would still be the same and public opinion even less sympathetic to those wronged (it was an accident, they shouldn't be so mad).
It's really an unfortunate situation for all involved, but I do think that actually addressing these issues would help eSports move forward as a whole, especially since the solution inescapably involves the community. We're standing on an opportunity here, and the way to capitalize on it is to take responsibility together and become stronger for it.
Even when we accept the rather faulty assumption that Milkis would be a journalist (he isn't becasue TL is a forum, he doesn't do it professionally and thirdly he just translates):
If you follow News on major outlets or even on directly on news agencies you will see that important articles with an reliable source (Coach Lee definitely is) get always instantely released and updated once more information are available. There is no reason for any news agency to wait to get all perspectives (and thus being slower than the competition). Those news get updated once more information is available - something which EG didn't provide. During the time EG tweeted silly stuff, TSL followed up with 2 more statements.
If EG wants to have both perspectives in a news, they need to provide theirs - and they can't demand anyone waiting for their lazy asses to move.
|
On July 22 2011 10:09 SpiZe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:08 Dommk wrote:
Agree with Wheat. End of the day, it should be what is best for Puma, not what is best for TSL or EG. So if Puma decides this is what he wants to do then let him. This is pretty much what I think, a team should be a player organisation sharing sponsors and praticing together, not some over controlling machine. ^ My opinion.
That isn't what I was getting at. I meant that a Player should be free to make his own decisions, if he wants to get him self contracted by a foreign team then so be it. From what I can tell the team contacted Puma and asked him how he wanted to handle it and let him do so.
TSL can spout out crap about EG not respecting TSL but it is never about TSL, it is about the player. EG respected Puma and that is all there needed to be, they didn't force him, they let HIM handle it they way HE wanted and if a player is not contracted then HE should be able to make his own damn decisions without the entire community coming down on him and the team he wants to sign with as if it were damning
|
On July 22 2011 10:16 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:05 zeru wrote:
The biased moderation by wheat made me a bit angry tbh. I know he's backed by EG and all but come on, that was a bit too much and obvious. He's backed by common sense. Puma is a free man, who was being paid nothing.... Milkes would have the "community" have a say in what Puma does. Its called communism... and in some extreme case (if people like Milkes ever get into power) totalitarianism. Alex and Wheat have just been around and know that the "world" doesn't work like that. Free market.... welcome to 1920. Sorry if feelings get hurt, but there's no crying in SC2 or business. (also... why should EG apologize to GOM? How are they effected?)
no, people just dont like being misslead or cloak and dagger.
TSL coach thought he had a rising star and all of a sudden hes gone
you can't blame him for being frustrated
and you can't blame people for simply posting what happened
seriously dissapointing.
|
On July 22 2011 10:14 postlapsaria wrote:
In the end, Milkis translating a PlayXP article has nothing to do with EG's behavior. You can't scapegoat random people in this kind of controversy, no forum poster should be held responsible for the outlook that most people had on this. I also think Alex's idea of furthering the global market of ESPORTS doesn't really correlate with him picking up a player without contacting the coach, and I feel like it's something drawn up to defend what might seem to be less than culturally sensitive behavior.
I agree whole heartedly with this. What EG did was not wrong in a legal sense, and I don't blame them for doing what they are doing. I think the only thing that Milkis was trying to get at was that EG was a little insensitive to the Korean eSports community by not going to Puma's coach first before making him an offer. For all of the smoke and mirrors, it boils down to the fact that EG made a good move in signing Puma but the execution was less than perfect. Everything else is just politics and first year debate class shenanigans.
|
i don't understand how so many of you are so oblivious to the way the system works. if a good player is not contracted, someone is going to pick him up and that's what happened. Going through the coach or any other traditional formality is nothing but that, a formality. EG did nothing wrong and there was nothing underhanded about what they did. You might not like how they went about it but there is no rule stating that you must follow tradition. I understand that Koreans follow their tradition but that's unique to Korea. Korea is no longer the sole location for anything starcraft related. Starcraft is now GLOBAL, and as such, Korea needs to adjust to the GLOBAL reality which is that anything goes as long as it is not illegal.
|
Milkis translated the Korean point of view to English for us.. I don't really feel like it's his responsibility to do any more. Shouldn't EG announce EG's side of the story?
|
On July 22 2011 10:18 DrunkenTemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:16 dsousa wrote:On July 22 2011 10:05 zeru wrote:
The biased moderation by wheat made me a bit angry tbh. I know he's backed by EG and all but come on, that was a bit too much and obvious. He's backed by common sense. Puma is a free man, who was being paid nothing.... Milkes would have the "community" have a say in what Puma does. Its called communism... and in some extreme case (if people like Milkes ever get into power) totalitarianism. not sure if serious......
its true... communism is about putting the community ahead of the individual. Thats what Milkes is arguing, while Wheat and Alex are advocating for Puma's individual rights. Milkes literally want to isolate the Korean SC2 community... thats how it sounded to me. Somehow EG doesn't have the right to sign Puma? Makes no sense in a free market system.....
Totalitarianism is a bridge too far... I edited it out :D
Honestly, in the business world, what EG did was 100% normal. Why should Korea or Korean teams get special treatment, especially if there players are going to compete with foreign players. (Such as winning MLG)
|
On July 22 2011 10:18 Kh0nsu wrote:
Milkis posted the news prematurely. Every single person that says "EG should have talked to Coach Lee first" is basing their opinion on that premature news. EG had every intent on speaking to Coach Lee but Milkis delivered the news before it happened. Obviously, the news was around in Korean first so there was a serious netizen discussion about this over in Korea, but Korean's don't have much influence over EG. When Milkis translated the news, EG took a shit-pie to the face. If even one person decided to not watch EG Master's Cup or purposefully avoids EG's sponsors as a result, EG has suffered as a result of this situation.
Milkis claims being a neutral party voids him of any responsibility, which is true, but doesn't change the fact he has slightly tarnished a companies reputation.
Instead of taking Alex's approach of posters being held accountable, the companies should be responsible for controlling that information. Ask Puma and Coach Lee to confidentiality and the news would have only surfaced when the story was complete.
except milkis didnt do shit. he translated an article already available on playxp if you can find your translate button in chrome.
you cant dump this on him for correcting chromes translational grammar problems.
he didnt break the story, he didnt do any journalism and he didnt tarnish anyones reputation.
he took some words written in korean, and wrote them in english.
|
On July 22 2011 10:21 torm wrote:
i don't understand how so many of you are so oblivious to the way the system works. if a good player is not contracted, someone is going to pick him up and that's what happened. Going through the coach or any other traditional formality is nothing but that, a formality. EG did nothing wrong and there was nothing underhanded about what they did. You might not like how they went about it but there is no rule stating that you must follow tradition. I understand that Koreans follow their tradition but that's unique to Korea. Korea is no longer the sole location for anything starcraft related. Starcraft is now GLOBAL, and as such, Korea needs to adjust to the GLOBAL reality which is that anything goes as long as it is not illegal.
Yeah let's make the community full of deceivers and cold-hearted money-showering businessmen
|
On July 22 2011 10:21 torm wrote:
i don't understand how so many of you are so oblivious to the way the system works. if a good player is not contracted, someone is going to pick him up and that's what happened. Going through the coach or any other traditional formality is nothing but that, a formality. EG did nothing wrong and there was nothing underhanded about what they did. You might not like how they went about it but there is no rule stating that you must follow tradition. I understand that Koreans follow their tradition but that's unique to Korea. Korea is no longer the sole location for anything starcraft related. Starcraft is now GLOBAL, and as such, Korea needs to adjust to the GLOBAL reality which is that anything goes as long as it is not illegal.
Or Korea seperates itself from the global scene and we will never see them in international tournaments......
|
Alex Garfield is dodging accountability where ever possible.
Don't know Korean culture & business ethics? Blame them not following the international model
(Because American business men have it realllly easy when brokering deals in China when shitting on their ethics?)
Don't like the flak you recieve when the story is published? Blame the messenger for not doing the PR piece you should have done in the first fucking place.
Don't want to sound like a douche? Be passive aggressive and blame the TL.Net community journalism model rather than directly pointing a finger at Milkis and saying "Thanks for making my company look like shit". Oh wait, still sounded like a douche.
He talks about the negativity of a e-sports union in Korea, because of their protectionism over their home grown players & teams denying the room for international growth but really he wants the easy way of buying out high profile players to represent his label to generate more revenue.
Surely this is negative growth, to have top tiered players be removed from the very foundations that created them (small team community housing, voluntry coaching / staffing) because you hurt and demoralise each house with such actions. To simply walk in with money, cherry pick a bunch of players and claim you have an "international" team simply means you enslaved some players to your brand that no longer fits in the Korean model, so effectively you REMOVE them from grass roots e-sports.
Guy is a business man who is simply trying to protect his brand, at the end of the day he has no interest whatsoever in trying to improve e-sports or grow it. The teams in Korea, the OGS/TSL's all share vested interests in growing their community into a great e-sport, and they would be stupid to not want it to be internationally inclusive too, but they must sacrifice alot to get there and people like Alex can take advantage of these sacrifices.
Fuck.
And sure, DJWheat, I'd love it if you included some "No fluff" towards the end when he brought up journalism accountability, I mean wtf, shoot the messenger as a cop out for the negativity he's recieved?
|
On July 22 2011 10:20 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:09 SpiZe wrote:On July 22 2011 10:08 Dommk wrote:
Agree with Wheat. End of the day, it should be what is best for Puma, not what is best for TSL or EG. So if Puma decides this is what he wants to do then let him. This is pretty much what I think, a team should be a player organisation sharing sponsors and praticing together, not some over controlling machine. ^ My opinion. That isn't what I was getting at. I meant that a Player should be free to make his own decisions, if he wants to get him self contracted by a foreign team then so be it. From what I can tell the team contacted Puma and asked him how he wanted to handle it and let him do so. TSL can spout out crap about EG not respecting TSL but it is never about TSL, it is about the player. EG respected Puma and that is all there needed to be, they didn't force him, they let HIM handle it they way HE wanted and if a player is not contracted then HE should be able to make his own damn decisions without the entire community coming down on him and the team he wants to sign with as if it were damning
Even if it's Puma's fault, one expects from a big company to do things the right way, specially when you consider entering in a different culture. If you fail/do no want to do so, then expect people to be critique with you
|
Calm down people. Alex went off tangent with the last segment, but don't loose sight of the actual topic which made up the majority of tonight's episode. A lot of heat was generated about the sole fact EG should have contacted TSL officially regardless of the course of action they agreed with Puma on. That is the basic line, nothing else.
Would things have turned out better this way? Definitely. Could EG have made their homework better and educated themselves on that matter beforehand? Definitely. What Alex touched on though is the decision in which direction SC2 should move as a model. And how the specifics of it should look like.
Let's compare it to any other industry: Do western companies have to accustom themselves to the culture of their oversea's business partners? Absolutely. Does it mean such adaption has to be one-sided? Should KR be treated with velvet gloves? No.
The single most important point Alex made is a strictly practical one: Internationally operating organizations cannot only focus on KR. Sure, we all would like to have one giant governing body, a FIA or FIFA. But let's get real, this is not going to happen anytime soon. In the meanwhile it is and will be a struggle for both sides.
|
On July 22 2011 10:10 theDragoon wrote:
That was terrible, I feel bad for Milkis. The show was so biased and the personal attack on Milkis was just straight up unprofessional.
Alex repeatedly said " this isn't a loaded question" and " i'm not trying to attack you".
This isn't a case of saying " no offence but you're fat and ugly and you should be put down like a dog" and thinking the "no offence" neutralises the obvious insults, but Alex was being general, sensitive and respectful when he addressed Milkis ( not when he constantly interrupted him though
>.<). Remember this is his lively hood and the negative press EG have received can be partially attributed to Milkis; if he wanted to attack Milkis, he would have been much, much more abrasive and disrespectful.
Milkis took it personally and his responses were clearly not of someone used to public speaking in a debate such as that one. He could have easily been more mature and discussed it openly instead of defensively.
|
On July 22 2011 10:25 rotegirte wrote:
Calm down people. Alex went off tangent with the last segment, but don't loose sight of the actual topic which made up the majority of tonight's episode. A lot of heat was generated about the sole fact EG should have contacted TSL officially regardless of the course of action they agreed with Puma on. That is the basic line, nothing else.
Would things have turned out better this way? Definitely. Could EG have made their homework better and educated themselves on that matter beforehand? Definitely. What Alex touched on though is the decision in which direction SC2 should move as a model. And how the specifics of it should look like.
Let's compare it to any other industry: Do western companies have to accustom themselves to the culture of their oversea's business partners? Absolutely. Does it mean such adaption has to be one-sided? Should KR be treated with velvet gloves? No.
The single most important point Alex made is a strictly practical one: Internationally operating organizations cannot only focus on KR. Sure, we all would like to have one giant governing body, a FIA or FIFA. But let's get real, this is not going to happen anytime soon. In the meanwhile it is and will be a struggle for both sides.
Cannot agree more
|
People are being irrational about what Alex said.
Team Liquid, is the corner stone of international SC2/BW. Now the majority of people are not influential enough to really have the opinion carried very far. But some members are, and do have potential ramifications outside the site. Milkis has become one of them after YEARS of translations, discussions, membership and just hard work (Thanks! :D). He is more than just an average poster here, so when he translates something, it gets dissected and copied thousands of times over.
I can't speak for BW, but in SC2 I have seen posts by Progamers and casters that lit an inferno throughout Team Liquid AND other sites. And you have heard of various SotG's and what not, where Admins like Kennigit (Hot_Bid?) say that they and other popular players need to moderate their speech because THEY ARE influential and could impact things outside the thread and site.
I think what Alex is implying is Milkis may want to put up a disclaimer in future translations that are significant like this with a sort discretionary tone to it like "Incomplete data, waiting on information for/from X,Y,Z" etc. Obviously maybe more eloquently, but you get it. (Create one and copy and paste it even...
Milkis is important to this community and almost a legend in his own right. So, I hope he doesn't take this the wrong way, but I think he underestimates his value in situations like this. Korean to English is hard from what I understand so his and connected status here is rare and potentially powerful thing. Especially if you remember this is ESPORTS, we are on the internet, you can have your post in 20 languages in 50 countries in 10 minutes if you got the status and news worth spreading. EG in that regard, cannot match that kind of community based influence and could be overpowered by the word of Milkis in certain conditions. (Like having a major event occur at 3a.m. EST)
(Someone read this please!!  )
|
On July 22 2011 10:25 rotegirte wrote:
Calm down people. Alex went off tangent with the last segment, but don't loose sight of the actual topic which made up the majority of tonight's episode. A lot of heat was generated about the sole fact EG should have contacted TSL officially regardless of the course of action they agreed with Puma on. That is the basic line, nothing else.
Would things have turned out better this way? Definitely. Could EG have made their homework better and educated themselves on that matter beforehand? Definitely. What Alex touched on though is the decision in which direction SC2 should move as a model. And how the specifics of it should look like.
Let's compare it to any other industry: Do western companies have to accustom themselves to the culture of their oversea's business partners? Absolutely. Does it mean such adaption has to be one-sided? Should KR be treated with velvet gloves? No.
The single most important point Alex made is a strictly practical one: Internationally operating organizations cannot only focus on KR. Sure, we all would like to have one giant governing body, a FIA or FIFA. But let's get real, this is not going to happen anytime soon. In the meanwhile it is and will be a struggle for both sides.
I agree with you, but if companies are not going to respect the traditions of Kroea than can blame Korea if they star contracting their SC2 players in the same way the contract SC:BW players?
|
On July 22 2011 10:21 torm wrote:
i don't understand how so many of you are so oblivious to the way the system works. if a good player is not contracted, someone is going to pick him up and that's what happened. Going through the coach or any other traditional formality is nothing but that, a formality. EG did nothing wrong and there was nothing underhanded about what they did. You might not like how they went about it but there is no rule stating that you must follow tradition. I understand that Koreans follow their tradition but that's unique to Korea. Korea is no longer the sole location for anything starcraft related. Starcraft is now GLOBAL, and as such, Korea needs to adjust to the GLOBAL reality which is that anything goes as long as it is not illegal.
I can't and won't speak for everyone in saying this, but I give 0 shits about what they did and how they did it. Infact, if I had to support a side, I'd say hey, he wasn't contracted, you're screwed. But, for EG to come onto that show, basically be-rate Milkis with loaded questions, tell them that the questions aren't loaded, and then cut him off whenever he started to respond, was fucking retarded.
If you're going to invite someone onto a public forum to discuss a topic, you should at least have the decency to let them get a word in. Was Milkis an awesome speaker and prepared? Fuck no, he's not. Especially in comparison. Anyone who thinks that that EG guy didn't have all of this shit prepared way ahead of time is foolish. He's a trained professional who gets paid to do this kind of stuff. To put him on a forum with a biased moderator is pretty fucking cruel, In reality, Milkis probably shouldn't even have accepted the invitation, but how could he have known he was going to get the short end of the stick so badly?
And then, after cutting off Milkis an infinite number of times, he begins to personally attack him for his personal opinions, tell him it's not a personal attack, and continue to personal attack him. I can punch you in the face and tell you I didn't mean to do it, but are you really going to say, oh no, it's cool you didn't mean it. He did it because he knew he could get away with it without any retort so he did it, then he proceeded to attempt to stroke the dick of the community to do some damage control. Inviting everyone to PM him and express their opinion to make him seem like the good guy and make him seem like he's super proactive about everything.
TLDR: I won't make any arguement against EG's decision and how they did what they did. I firmly believe that they were well within their rights. Some of the actions and things that were said on this show, though, were not acceptable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
