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On July 22 2011 10:23 hyptonic wrote:
Yeah let's make the community full of deceivers and cold-hearted money-showering businessmen
There was nothing deceitful going on. Puma wasn't contracted, EG approached Puma, and Puma accepted. It would be deceitful if EG signed Puma to a contract without his knowledge.
On July 22 2011 10:23 hewley wrote:
Or Korea seperates itself from the global scene and we will never see them in international tournaments......
Yeah... no.
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You know what, even though I pretty much disagreed with both sides on a bunch of issues and agreed with one or the other, on the rest of the issue,. I still liked this episode of WoC, I just gobble up drama.
it was one of the better SC2 related podcasts in quite awhile, way ahead of State of the Game recently... See? more drama.
anyway i'll sum up how I feel that everything went down, in a real unprofessional way, since I had my Sherlock Holmes cap, pipe, and magnifying glass throughout the entire episode. Can't wear those for too long
EG took Puma off TSL while he was uncontracted. Yes, EG was being a dick, but legally in the clear.
TSL coach was a bitch for QQing when Puma left, he did not have a contract. had this on trust.
Why have it on trust? Well, the SC2 scene in korea was born out of Satan's butthole, which is Kespa and contracts. Contracts, they were the chains which drove many a player right into the ground. Korean SC2 teams didn't really like that, so TSL(started by FD and Tester, known for not much practicing), didn't want contractually bind players. (i'm assuming this,but if not there's probably some other empathetic reason to why they had no contract)
Now back to what just happened. EG comes in, takes Puma, and does it in such a matter that Coach Lee feels like he just got backstabbed (this is important, not because of the action, but how much backlash it caused, and how pissed off it made Coach Lee).
Both sides fall back on the matter of contracts, this is the sharp thorn that allowed EG to do what they did, and what Coach Lee needed to keep his player.
What happens next? well they both said it on the show. The coaches for all the korean teams get together and fix the model that they had for this first year of SC2. Unfortunately, contracts pave the way back to a Kespa-like model, but the teams are going to have to take it, to ensure something like this doesn't happen again, cause they don't like seeing Coach Lee QQing.
Now, Alex was talking for 40 minutes about the International scene, when he didn't need to, but his point will go at the end of all this. Kespa and its contracts thrived in Korea, because that's all the koreans had to pick from, in BW.
What EG just did is basically show to the Koreans that the West is willing to play ball.
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Australia8532 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:25 rotegirte wrote:
Calm down people. Alex went off tangent with the last segment, but don't loose sight of the actual topic which made up the majority of tonight's episode. A lot of heat was generated about the sole fact EG should have contacted TSL officially regardless of the course of action they agreed with Puma on. That is the basic line, nothing else.
Would things have turned out better this way? Definitely. Could EG have made their homework better and educated themselves on that matter beforehand? Definitely. What Alex touched on though is the decision in which direction SC2 should move as a model. And how the specifics of it should look like.
Let's compare it to any other industry: Do western companies have to accustom themselves to the culture of their oversea's business partners? Absolutely. Does it mean such adaption has to be one-sided? Should KR be treated with velvet gloves? No.
The single most important point Alex made is a strictly practical one: Internationally operating organizations cannot only focus on KR. Sure, we all would like to have one giant governing body, a FIA or FIFA. But let's get real, this is not going to happen anytime soon. In the meanwhile it is and will be a struggle for both sides.
You have put a large focus on what AG was trying to communicate but i do not think you can ignore how he was attempting to communicate it. The ad hominen and blatant rudeness was a little sad to see on a show that is usually great to watch.
Milkis took an article, and translated from Korean to English for us; he did it in a way that presented whatever facts were available to him. EG decided to remain silent on the matter and instead of releasing a PR statement stating the facts, they jump on a podcast and get into a bias, one sided argument that attacks Milkis for what he did? I don't know, it just seems a little strange. AG is a well rehearsed PR face for EG, i don't see why he had to get into such an argument with Milkis, a forum poster.
The general opinion is that the way EG went about the PuMa recruitment was against what is considered the correct thing, there is no way to hide that no matter how much you try to belittle people in public.
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That was horrible. You just cut off Milkis at every turn and AG came off as a total prick. And then to blame Milkis for the flak you received was beyond dumb.
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United States7481 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:18 Kh0nsu wrote:
Milkis posted the news prematurely. Every single person that says "EG should have talked to Coach Lee first" is basing their opinion on that premature news. EG had every intent on speaking to Coach Lee but Milkis delivered the news before it happened. Obviously, the news was around in Korean first so there was a serious netizen discussion about this over in Korea, but Korean's don't have much influence over EG. When Milkis translated the news, EG took a shit-pie to the face. If even one person decided to not watch EG Master's Cup or purposefully avoids EG's sponsors as a result, EG has suffered as a result of this situation.
Milkis claims being a neutral party voids him of any responsibility, which is true, but doesn't change the fact he has slightly tarnished a companies reputation.
Instead of taking Alex's approach of posters being held accountable, the companies should be responsible for controlling that information. Ask Puma and Coach Lee to confidentiality and the news would have only surfaced when the story was complete.
this is honestly the worst post i've ever seen on this forum. you're suggesting people who want to make information that is ALREADY AVAILABLE, available to more people, wait for everyone to give their side of the story? waiting hand and foot on everyone to come up with their own special spin on the situation?
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On July 22 2011 10:22 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:18 Kh0nsu wrote:
Milkis posted the news prematurely. Every single person that says "EG should have talked to Coach Lee first" is basing their opinion on that premature news. EG had every intent on speaking to Coach Lee but Milkis delivered the news before it happened. Obviously, the news was around in Korean first so there was a serious netizen discussion about this over in Korea, but Korean's don't have much influence over EG. When Milkis translated the news, EG took a shit-pie to the face. If even one person decided to not watch EG Master's Cup or purposefully avoids EG's sponsors as a result, EG has suffered as a result of this situation.
Milkis claims being a neutral party voids him of any responsibility, which is true, but doesn't change the fact he has slightly tarnished a companies reputation.
Instead of taking Alex's approach of posters being held accountable, the companies should be responsible for controlling that information. Ask Puma and Coach Lee to confidentiality and the news would have only surfaced when the story was complete. except milkis didnt do shit. he translated an article already available on playxp if you can find your translate button in chrome. you cant dump this on him for correcting chromes translational grammar problems. he didnt break the story, he didnt do any journalism and he didnt tarnish anyones reputation. he took some words written in korean, and wrote them in english.
My arguement didn't criticise Milkis, the guy is fantastic and nobody can fault him for the translation.
Personally, I put the blame on EG, they needed to be more discreet with this situation and enforce some privacy around the situation and not allow it to be leaked prematurely.
Milkis translation was only possible because the news got out before it should have.
No leaked news, no bad press.
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On July 22 2011 10:29 turamn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:21 torm wrote:
i don't understand how so many of you are so oblivious to the way the system works. if a good player is not contracted, someone is going to pick him up and that's what happened. Going through the coach or any other traditional formality is nothing but that, a formality. EG did nothing wrong and there was nothing underhanded about what they did. You might not like how they went about it but there is no rule stating that you must follow tradition. I understand that Koreans follow their tradition but that's unique to Korea. Korea is no longer the sole location for anything starcraft related. Starcraft is now GLOBAL, and as such, Korea needs to adjust to the GLOBAL reality which is that anything goes as long as it is not illegal. I can't and won't speak for everyone in saying this, but I give 0 shits about what they did and how they did it. Infact, if I had to support a side, I'd say hey, he wasn't contracted, you're screwed. But, for EG to come onto that show, basically be-rate Milkis with loaded questions, tell them that the questions aren't loaded, and then cut him off whenever he started to respond, was fucking retarded. If you're going to invite someone onto a public forum to discuss a topic, you should at least have the decency to let them get a word in. Was Milkis an awesome speaker and prepared? Fuck no, he's not. Especially in comparison. Anyone who thinks that that EG guy didn't have all of this shit prepared way ahead of time is foolish. He's a trained professional who gets paid to do this kind of stuff. To put him on a forum with a biased moderator is pretty fucking cruel, In reality, Milkis probably shouldn't even have accepted the invitation, but how could he have known he was going to get the short end of the stick so badly? And then, after cutting off Milkis an infinite number of times, he begins to personally attack him for his personal opinions, tell him it's not a personal attack, and continue to personal attack him. I can punch you in the face and tell you I didn't mean to do it, but are you really going to say, oh no, it's cool you didn't mean it. He did it because he knew he could get away with it without any retort so he did it, then he proceeded to attempt to stroke the dick of the community to do some damage control. Inviting everyone to PM him and express their opinion to make him seem like the good guy and make him seem like he's super proactive about everything.TLDR: I won't make any arguement against EG's decision and how they did what they did. I firmly believe that they were well within their rights. Some of the actions and things that were said on this show, though, were not acceptable.
That was unbelievably disturbing when he did that towards the end.
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On July 22 2011 10:33 Kh0nsu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:22 turdburgler wrote:On July 22 2011 10:18 Kh0nsu wrote:
Milkis posted the news prematurely. Every single person that says "EG should have talked to Coach Lee first" is basing their opinion on that premature news. EG had every intent on speaking to Coach Lee but Milkis delivered the news before it happened. Obviously, the news was around in Korean first so there was a serious netizen discussion about this over in Korea, but Korean's don't have much influence over EG. When Milkis translated the news, EG took a shit-pie to the face. If even one person decided to not watch EG Master's Cup or purposefully avoids EG's sponsors as a result, EG has suffered as a result of this situation.
Milkis claims being a neutral party voids him of any responsibility, which is true, but doesn't change the fact he has slightly tarnished a companies reputation.
Instead of taking Alex's approach of posters being held accountable, the companies should be responsible for controlling that information. Ask Puma and Coach Lee to confidentiality and the news would have only surfaced when the story was complete. except milkis didnt do shit. he translated an article already available on playxp if you can find your translate button in chrome. you cant dump this on him for correcting chromes translational grammar problems. he didnt break the story, he didnt do any journalism and he didnt tarnish anyones reputation. he took some words written in korean, and wrote them in english. Milkis translation was only possible because the news got out before it should have.
Before it should have? It should be assumed that he news would get out when Puma told his coach I'm leaving to EG....
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Lol at people saying that Milkis had to go get EG's story, because he's a journalist,
That's like saying Kotaku is a jounalism site ( well, for the links they just repost)
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On July 22 2011 10:33 Antoine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:18 Kh0nsu wrote:
Milkis posted the news prematurely. Every single person that says "EG should have talked to Coach Lee first" is basing their opinion on that premature news. EG had every intent on speaking to Coach Lee but Milkis delivered the news before it happened. Obviously, the news was around in Korean first so there was a serious netizen discussion about this over in Korea, but Korean's don't have much influence over EG. When Milkis translated the news, EG took a shit-pie to the face. If even one person decided to not watch EG Master's Cup or purposefully avoids EG's sponsors as a result, EG has suffered as a result of this situation.
Milkis claims being a neutral party voids him of any responsibility, which is true, but doesn't change the fact he has slightly tarnished a companies reputation.
Instead of taking Alex's approach of posters being held accountable, the companies should be responsible for controlling that information. Ask Puma and Coach Lee to confidentiality and the news would have only surfaced when the story was complete. this is honestly the worst post i've ever seen on this forum. you're suggesting people who want to make information that is ALREADY AVAILABLE, available to more people, wait for everyone to give their side of the story? waiting hand and foot on everyone to come up with their own special spin on the situation?
Please re-read. I said Milkis did nothing wrong. The information was public. He didn't do anything wrong. If information is public, translating it is acceptable.
My point was that if EG didn't want this news to come out onto PlayXP, they shouldn't have let it. They could have asked Puma for confidentiality but they didn't.
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Well, missed the show. And I didn't really care about this whole Puma to EG issue that seems to be the hot witch hunt for the day. But after reading how milkis got treated, I sure aint rooting for eg anymore ^^
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Oh by the way i think the SC BW comparison is out of the window because korea has the best players and the team houses. Mister Alex here just showed us the western way, Put your foot in the door get a deal and sell it to your sponsors. Now thing is we all know u tell the dude to fuck off. Does Puma know this? Dous korea work this way? i rly dont know but i dont think so. Yes djWHEAT he gets more mony so we all think it's better for him but as a player u know u need that team house NOW! u need to practice to your fullest every day to be the best. So what now? Does E.G. fix him up as we speak with a perfect practice enviroment? Alex said he's not even signed yet. So now shit blows up in korea. And this is where djWHEAT gets a vain. I love onemoregame's shows but rly? somthing this big? not responding for 18 hours and then tell your story on an EG sponsored show? rly?
Ok that was kind of a rant sorry....
i'l just rant on now :/
If u are such a big boss of eg and have contacts. The first thing to do was contact mister Lee ,,|,,
But instead u stay silent and go on a rant vs The guy who translated it that it's journalism nd he's responsible for corporate dmg WTF get lost. And u also do it on a show with eg's sponsors...
I like onemoregame it's the only reason i dont sleep i mean 1 more game and then the show lol.
and i like to mention that i myself found it intresting and so on but if i'm korean and get this translated back i'd lol and go alll kotaku on eg.
/Rant
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On July 22 2011 10:33 Kh0nsu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:22 turdburgler wrote:On July 22 2011 10:18 Kh0nsu wrote:
Milkis posted the news prematurely. Every single person that says "EG should have talked to Coach Lee first" is basing their opinion on that premature news. EG had every intent on speaking to Coach Lee but Milkis delivered the news before it happened. Obviously, the news was around in Korean first so there was a serious netizen discussion about this over in Korea, but Korean's don't have much influence over EG. When Milkis translated the news, EG took a shit-pie to the face. If even one person decided to not watch EG Master's Cup or purposefully avoids EG's sponsors as a result, EG has suffered as a result of this situation.
Milkis claims being a neutral party voids him of any responsibility, which is true, but doesn't change the fact he has slightly tarnished a companies reputation.
Instead of taking Alex's approach of posters being held accountable, the companies should be responsible for controlling that information. Ask Puma and Coach Lee to confidentiality and the news would have only surfaced when the story was complete. except milkis didnt do shit. he translated an article already available on playxp if you can find your translate button in chrome. you cant dump this on him for correcting chromes translational grammar problems. he didnt break the story, he didnt do any journalism and he didnt tarnish anyones reputation. he took some words written in korean, and wrote them in english. My arguement didn't criticise Milkis, the guy is fantastic and nobody can fault him for the translation. Personally, I put the blame on EG, they needed to be more discreet with this situation and enforce some privacy around the situation and not allow it to be leaked prematurely. Milkis translation was only possible because the news got out before it should have. No leaked news, no bad press.
but if we are to believe EG's side of things ( that there is no obligation to do anything proper, it was just a courtesy) then theres no news to break early. they cant have it both ways
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On July 22 2011 10:37 Buffy wrote:
Well, missed the show. And I didn't really care about this whole Puma to EG issue that seems to be the hot witch hunt for the day. But after reading how milkis got treated, I sure aint rooting for eg anymore ^^
Listen to it then make up your mind?
-shrug- It's an interesting show at the very least as it gives some pretty good insight into the bones of the Esports scene outside of Korea.
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United States7481 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:37 Kh0nsu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:33 Antoine wrote:On July 22 2011 10:18 Kh0nsu wrote:
Milkis posted the news prematurely. Every single person that says "EG should have talked to Coach Lee first" is basing their opinion on that premature news. EG had every intent on speaking to Coach Lee but Milkis delivered the news before it happened. Obviously, the news was around in Korean first so there was a serious netizen discussion about this over in Korea, but Korean's don't have much influence over EG. When Milkis translated the news, EG took a shit-pie to the face. If even one person decided to not watch EG Master's Cup or purposefully avoids EG's sponsors as a result, EG has suffered as a result of this situation.
Milkis claims being a neutral party voids him of any responsibility, which is true, but doesn't change the fact he has slightly tarnished a companies reputation.
Instead of taking Alex's approach of posters being held accountable, the companies should be responsible for controlling that information. Ask Puma and Coach Lee to confidentiality and the news would have only surfaced when the story was complete. this is honestly the worst post i've ever seen on this forum. you're suggesting people who want to make information that is ALREADY AVAILABLE, available to more people, wait for everyone to give their side of the story? waiting hand and foot on everyone to come up with their own special spin on the situation? Please re-read. I said Milkis did nothing wrong. The information was public. He didn't do anything wrong. If information is public, translating it is acceptable. My point was that if EG didn't want this news to come out onto PlayXP, they shouldn't have let it. They could have asked Puma for confidentiality but they didn't.
I took you saying "milkis posted the news prematurely" as you accusing him of doing something wrong. I agree with your second point that EG should have had some sort of statement ready, since despite their argument that puma is already under contract, he seemingly is under the impression that it's a done enough deal to leave his former team.
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Let me begin by saying... I knew this was going to be a tough show. So if some of you want to take one or two things that happened in this show and judge me based on that... then I guess I can't stop you.
I made plenty of mistakes while moderating. And I thought everyone (including Milkis) wanted to hear AG's side of the story (which we got plenty of - and I for one was happy to learn new details about the deal/approach). As that topic began to close and somehow we got on the topic of "how do teams do business", I quickly realized that I was pretty much fucked.
Why?
Cause Milkis admitted that he has basically no knowledge of eSports out of Korea.
So suddenly, I'm sitting here going, well fuck. How in the fuck do you let two guys argue over something will OBVIOUSLY take two VERY DIFFERENT paths. I don't even think Milkis knows that EG has contracted Street Fighter players, etc, and I'm not sure Alex realizes just how deep Milkis' BW roots go.
While everything started out great, I felt like we were suddenly going to take a bad path because we were now arguing from two different perspectives. I did the best I could to balance out the topics and speaking time as much as I could, so I agree I failed there.
However, I want to make a comment about the people who said I cut off Milkis at the end and that they have "lost all respect for me". I DID NOT WANT TO GO INTO THAT DISCUSSION (about the responsibilities of a member/journalist on TL) PERIOD. I even said on air that this was not an appropriate place for this discussion... HOWEVER, I do agree with some things that Alex said on that, and to be fair, it's not like he's the first person to say it.
I was not cutting off Milkis because I was "defending AG" or that I was just trying to be a dick... I was simply trying to stop all discussion on it. Because I didn't want to deter away from the topic at hand. I don't care if it made me look like a dick, cause I feel like I probably saved both of them from going down a road that neither of them wanted to go down.
What I was extremely disappointed with was the fact that he related it to this article, and I didn't think that was appropriate. THAT IS WHY I CUT IT OFF. If you interpreted that as me fucking over Milkis, well then I apologize (especially if Milkis feels that way) - but honestly, it was NOT the time nor place for that discussion so I stopped it. I will take the consequences of doing so like a man, but I feel like I made the right decision.
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On July 22 2011 10:31 bkrow wrote:
You have put a large focus on what AG was trying to communicate but i do not think you can ignore how he was attempting to communicate it. The ad hominen and blatant rudeness was a little sad to see on a show that is usually great to watch.
Milkis took an article, and translated from Korean to English for us; he did it in a way that presented whatever facts were available to him. EG decided to remain silent on the matter and instead of releasing a PR statement stating the facts, they jump on a podcast and get into a bias, one sided argument that attacks Milkis for what he did? I don't know, it just seems a little strange. AG is a well rehearsed PR face for EG, i don't see why he had to get into such an argument with Milkis, a forum poster.
The general opinion is that the way EG went about the PuMa recruitment was against what is considered the correct thing, there is no way to hide that no matter how much you try to belittle people in public.
If it wasn't against the backdrop of this TSL/EG/Puma business, it would actually be an interesting conversation. Alex didn't seem to attack Milkis as a person, he was just saying that if Milkis is, in fact, a journalist, then he should check with both sources. This idea is hopelessly naive, internet journalism and sports journalism rarely checks with sources from both sides anymore.
But Milkis is a de facto journalist, at least in my opinion. He reports what other people say. And when he posts, he posts with the authority of his translating capacity, his popularity and with the support of the TL staff. He might not want to be a journalist but that's what he's doing. That doesn't make Alex right, of course, but I do think his premise was correct.
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On July 22 2011 10:22 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:18 Kh0nsu wrote:
Milkis posted the news prematurely. Every single person that says "EG should have talked to Coach Lee first" is basing their opinion on that premature news. EG had every intent on speaking to Coach Lee but Milkis delivered the news before it happened. Obviously, the news was around in Korean first so there was a serious netizen discussion about this over in Korea, but Korean's don't have much influence over EG. When Milkis translated the news, EG took a shit-pie to the face. If even one person decided to not watch EG Master's Cup or purposefully avoids EG's sponsors as a result, EG has suffered as a result of this situation.
Milkis claims being a neutral party voids him of any responsibility, which is true, but doesn't change the fact he has slightly tarnished a companies reputation.
Instead of taking Alex's approach of posters being held accountable, the companies should be responsible for controlling that information. Ask Puma and Coach Lee to confidentiality and the news would have only surfaced when the story was complete. except milkis didnt do shit. he translated an article already available on playxp if you can find your translate button in chrome. you cant dump this on him for correcting chromes translational grammar problems. he didnt break the story, he didnt do any journalism and he didnt tarnish anyones reputation. he took some words written in korean, and wrote them in english.
Exactly what I was thinking, it was so unprofessional for Alex to blame Milkis for translating and posting the article on the forum. Milkis personal tweets are his own opinion, that shouldn't even have come into the discussion of journalism.
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On July 22 2011 10:38 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:37 Buffy wrote:
Well, missed the show. And I didn't really care about this whole Puma to EG issue that seems to be the hot witch hunt for the day. But after reading how milkis got treated, I sure aint rooting for eg anymore ^^ Listen to it then make up your mind? -shrug- It's an interesting show at the very least as it gives some pretty good insight into the bones of the Esports scene outside of Korea.
I've already made my mind up really. I dont care about the issue, but if someone gets cutoff all the time, and personally attacked by someone, I sure aint rooting for anything they have. The issue isn't what was my problem. It's the way milkis seemed to have been treated troughout the discussion of all of it.
And only caught wheats speecha bout it. And I guess the vods are up tomorrow or something so I'll be sure to watch then 
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On July 22 2011 10:39 djWHEAT wrote:
Cause Milkis admitted that he has basically no knowledge of eSports out of Korea.
at least milkis has the decency to admit to what he doesnt know about
AG spouted a lot of crap about BW and korea in general that clearly came directly from this sphincter
;/
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EPT
