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On July 22 2011 13:22 Shizel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:09 r4pture wrote:On July 22 2011 13:02 Shizel wrote:On July 22 2011 12:43 iNcontroL wrote:On July 22 2011 12:32 RedBack wrote:
Haha thats the one bit of input you have for the whole duscission Incontrol? ;P I can ignore a lot but flat lies about my gaming specifically bother me. Unlike all of you this is my life. How dare you. What gives you the right to assume people here aren't as passionate about Esports as you, and that it isn't as much a part of their lives? Your ignorance is disgusting, and this is coming from a long time fan of your work. This entitled attitude that you and some of the members of your team seem to sport is what created this mess in the first place, and instead of taking steps towards resolution you make broad offensive sweeping statements. InControl, your better then this man. Your income and livelihood don't depend on this game. His does. Hes not talking about passion, hes talking about a career. Gaming is my life, and I make my living off of gaming the games industry. I have competed in gaming tournaments as a source of income, and I am well versed in the ins and outs of the industry as it's part of my job. iNcontrol has every right to defend himself as a gamer and a person and he is entitled to his opinion. It however bothers me that he makes the assumption that no one else is as qualified to speak because no one else understands his situation. He is making the assumption it isn't as much apart of our lives, and that is wrong. He could have just as easily said "I can ignore a lot but flat lies about my gaming specifically bother me. Gaming is my life and career so I take it very seriously, please try and appreciate that." and offended no one. I have tons of respect for iNcontrol as a person and gamer, and the hardships he's endured to get where he is. It's completely offensive for him to assume none of us have gone through the same. I feel he is in a unique position to help mend this situation instead of just creating more problems.
I think you need to fucking relax. I'm pretty sure (and you know this as well) InC assumed that 99% of the people posting including the person he responded to that we don't make are ENTIRE livelihood off of playing a game. Just because you (an outlier) might, doesn't mean that the spirit of his comment isn't truth. He wasn't talking to you.. if he was he would have PM'd you. He was talking to the VAST majority of people. You know this. Settle the fuck down.
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He translated something, it wasn't journalism, he didn't need to ask you guys because all he did was translate a post on playxp.
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I'd much rather had SirScoots on the show to present EG's view. I really dislike Alex's PR focused corporate view. Maybe its because I'm not american and thus the American way to do PR seems so aggressive and different from northern europe. Milkis had hard time getting his view out at times.
Good to hear discussion on the topic anyway. Thanks to DjWheat again for great content.
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On July 22 2011 15:00 TYJ.Aoy wrote:
Does everyone feel comfortable with wheat throwing the word "fuck" around way too much and needlessly?He looks like a very immature adolescent every time he does that, it's not like it offends me or anything, just feels retarded to listen to that.
Swearing unnecessarily is a bad habit, which i tend to have myself, but no, i don't get offended by it in wheat's context.
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On July 22 2011 13:16 SMD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:13 DirtYLOu wrote:On July 22 2011 13:10 SMD wrote:On July 22 2011 13:04 fer wrote:On July 22 2011 12:39 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On July 22 2011 12:33 nvs. wrote:On July 22 2011 12:27 iNcontroL wrote:On July 22 2011 12:19 Mohdoo wrote:On July 22 2011 12:13 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 22 2011 12:10 nvs. wrote:
[quote]
I think he is talking in terms of attitude and not in-game skill. Mohdoo probably knew that, but wanted to get his EG hate rant out like everyone else seems to want to do today. Apparently every member of EG is shit and it's 100% impossible to improve in that team etc etc. I never said that its impossible. However, since the release of SC2, the players of EG have been losing ground consistently to the Korean scene. Idra hasn't won a tournament in forever. Machine and Incontrol don't seem to be able to take games from Koreans anymore. Its not exactly a stretch to say that it seems like they may not be as good of practice partners and that they certainly provide a much worse atmosphere. uhh literally every Korean I've played I either beat em or took 1 of 3 games Wat? From liquipedia. 11-01-14 FXO StS Invitational (?) (P)oGsHero Loss
11-01-14 FXO StS Invitational (?) (P)oGsHero Loss 11-04-23 FXO Invitational #3 Unknown (T)TheStC Loss
11-04-23 FXO Invitational #3 Unknown (T)TheStC Loss I don't think he meant literally literally. He has beating top Koreans and lost to top Koreans. MLG Columbus is a good example. That's true, don't be hard on the guy. Don't you guys remember when he managed to take a game off of Losira when Losira's keyboard went kaput? He also made it clear that Losira was very much so a douchebag for having this unfortunate event happen to him during game. Give iNcontroL some slack! Again lies, iNc said he was annoyed at the fact that losira was like "yea my keyboard broke but it was still easy" sorta attitude, he wasnt upset at losira for his keyboard breaking. dude Losira almost beat inc with mouse only wtf u are talking about T_T I know that. I never said anything to the contrary. What i was disputing was the statement that "incontrol called losira a douchebag because his keyboard broke" which was not the case. iNcontrol was bothered by the fact that after the match losira said something along the lines of " I beat him with just my mouse" its not the fact it happened, it was like kicking someone while their down.
losira said his keyboard wasn't working properly and that he was disappointed not being able to show good games and incontrol interpreted that as " I beat him with just my mouse". obviously losira wasn't trying to insult him, he doesn't even know him. but than again incontrol called major a douchebag too in his interview so clearly he has no problem dishing out the word.
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On July 22 2011 16:25 redFF wrote:
He translated something, it wasn't journalism, he didn't need to ask you guys because all he did was translate a post on playxp.
It is as simple as that.
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There is TOO MUCH FUCKING DRAMA going on in Starcraft. It is retarded that everyone has to argue over everything instead of enyoing the Games and that there are teams that give skilled people a Contract so they earn money while doing so. No, they decide to bitch about it all day long for no reason.
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On July 22 2011 18:36 Ippo wrote:
There is TOO MUCH FUCKING DRAMA going on in Starcraft. It is retarded that everyone has to argue over everything instead of enyoing the Games and that there are teams that give skilled people a Contract so they earn money while doing so. No, they decide to bitch about it all day long for no reason.
I for one am glad you decided to break the trend by making a dramatic post complaining about the drama.
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I kinds have the feeling that Alex' appreance on WOC yesterday shouldve cleared things up and put and end to all the discussions about EG being unethical or dicks or whatnot. But it was the exact opposite imo  now I at least have an even worse opition on EG
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On July 22 2011 18:45 Titorelli wrote:I kinds have the feeling that Alex' appreance on WOC yesterday shouldve cleared things up and put and end to all the discussions about EG being unethical or dicks or whatnot. But it was the exact opposite imo now I at least have an even worse opition on EG
EG has a strange way of making things worse in the process of trying to explain their actions. I think they may be better off just saying nothing rather than inflaming the community even further.
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On July 22 2011 10:48 djWHEAT wrote:
Ok. From this point forward I'm never having guests on a show ever again. That will just solve everything. I can't be held accountable for how much a guests talks, or how little he talks.
So, I'll just stop doing it. You fucking paint me as this bad guy... and that's not the case at all.
Fuck it.
Just making sure guests answer the questions you put to them would help.
e.g. you asked AG in very straightforward terms whether he or EG contacted coach Lee or any management from TSL before approaching Puma and AG went on for 10 mins talking about EG's humility and how EG aren't completely to blame and tried to say this situation was 50% TSL's fault.
Why not cut him off? Surely the point of asking a straightforward question like that you want a straightforward answer? I'm not saying all the questions need to result in yes/no answers otherwise it would obviously be pretty boring, but come on. In a debate I think it would be best to have moments of clarity not continual fluff/bullshit from one of your guests like you allowed AG to spew.
Anyway, still enjoyed most of it, obviously needed to happen just could of gone better.
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On July 22 2011 10:56 Antoine wrote:
that man is too strong at talking for just one host and translator with his first podcast experience to take on. I don't like how alex does his business, but he is very good at it.
Why would anyone say a thing like this? Why would you even think it? Is this EG guy not supposed to be a PR person for EG (on this show)? Is a PR person not supposed to put his company/ interests in a good light? The overwhelming response from the community is a negative one, indicating that the EG guy was a complete failure at doing his job. Instead of getting people on his side he did the exact opposite.
It was like an elementary school debater, trying so hard to win an argument in the face of his rival while completely neglecting the audience. He came across as a lawyer from an 1800 film that can impress and win, by just talking nice to a bunch of illiterates.
In a public debate the audience is the judge, and the verdict is EG lost big, big time (IMHO and from what i read on TL).
I don't know who teaches this sort of debating/ PR, but it's not fit for 2011 in a tech savvy community that has on average a higher IQ and smell for BS then the...general public.
My disappointment with the moderating steams from the fact that i truly believe Wheat is a very smart individual and he must have realized the direction and general approach AG was having. From the first 10 minutes of the show i was expecting Wheat to come and say "hey, AG, we do not have a lot of time, if you can just talk to the point and drop the text-book that does nothing but iritate it would be great" I'm sorry to see Wheat's shows turn in to EG propaganda like this. Surely EG must realize this is not good for them (again, judging by the reactions of the community).
I am happy and moderately surprised that the TL community does not accept this sort of low level, dance around, petty attacks excuse of a PR.
Just one more reason in the long line of reasons to dislike EG.
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You djWHEAT are an amazing person and in my opinion, are a very likeable man in whatever way possible. I like and enjoy what you do and your face lets me smile whenever I get to see you on a stream. However, I cannot say the same for some of your "affiliates".
Please continue with everything you do. At least this was a valuable experience for future discussions i guess :-)
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On July 22 2011 14:17 Syben wrote:
Personally after hearing EG's standpoint from Alex, I feel he really didn't really give a shit about Milkis point or even take the cultural diversity seriously. He rode the business aspect of it the whole show and started to call out Milkis on not getting his comment on the situation. Milkis reported news as he found it and it made EG look bad and I think Alex putting the spotlight on Milkis towards the end may have been a way to shift the attention. I have lost some respect for EG, I think they value their ROI over everything else.
I agree. As much as Alex tried to make Milkis look like some kind of Korean emissary with a special responsibility towards the community, you have to take into account that he does his translations free of charge and has no (legal) relations to specific esports-organizations. (As far as I know anyway...)
It's true that everything one posts on a public forum should be done with some consideration of the possible consequences, especially if it's on a delicate subject. But forum members can't be expected to clear their posts with every person/party that may be affected by it.
As Milkis put it:
EG saw the post, EG saw the tweet. They were free to issue a statement right then as a direct answer.
As it stands, the playxp-article was already out there, every Korean-speaking person could read it. All that Milkis did, was make the article accessible to the foreigner-scene.
He stated it "as is", without using a journalistic approach or own comments. If EG found the article to appear one-sided from their point of view, they should have taken the matter up with the original playxp-author.
I found this woc-episode hard to listen to at times, mainly because of Alex' long-winded speeches which answered five times more than was asked. It became clear in the end, that him and Milkis weren't on equal footing in terms of debating the matter at hand. Milkis had a hard time making his point, probably due to the fact that he lacked in-depth knowledge of the international esports-scene.
I definitely wasn't envying DJWheat yesterday. Balancing a conversation between two unequal guests with such diverse debating-styles and backgrounds couldn't have been a picnic.
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I didn't really find this show that bad, for the most part anyway. I don't in the least agree with Alex, but he made his points(which again, I completely disagree with). Milkis did pretty good imo, but I just felt listening to it that the show was more focused on getting EGs view across, which it did(and again I disagree with, but gotta have both views).
There were 3 things that I felt were bad:
1. djWheat should've stopped Alex from interupting Milkis so much.
2. djWheat jumped on Milkis, just like Alex. It's just really stupid to blame someone that simply translates text. The text is already out there, we just couldn't read it. Talk to the person that first posted it, that _IS_ the source.
3. Stopping Milkis from responding. It was way to far in, to just hear Alex's point and then when Milkis is making his point, to cut him off is just.... Not to mention right after cutting Milkis off, to give the mic back to Alex to further his point... Ugh
I expected him to be a lot bigger d*** from this page, but he's just a moron more like it.
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@ Djwheat: share the majority sentiment here. Weapon of choice is the best show about SC2 around, bar none. It sucks that this had to run its course on it, you've done so much incredible work so far. The 'community' might be a bit strange sometimes, but it cares about those who show commitment. You are, to use the common speak, the man. Nothing like this gonna screw that up.
That said, I think you need to put your foot down a bit, this is the second show in a row where EG concerns have been a primary theme. You know better than anyone how much gamers shit on anyone who is seen to be working for the man or selling out. It's going to hurt both of your projects if you keep using the OMG showlist too closely with EG's brand. It's really your perogative, I just feel you might end up shooting yourself in the foot.
You keep up the awesomesauce, k? let everyone else figure out this shit and you rock on with the power and the passion, because nobody does it better.
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i was pretty worried for djwheat and woc before reading this threat (pretty painfull for the most part btw) as i havent seen the show in a while and i was shocked that AG was allowed to make the show his bitch... it was literally uncomfortable for me listening to such a onesided and selfcentered "discussion".
but i have seen that wheat knows what went wrong and the next time he will be able to handle such a tough situation much better, as he has shown multiple times that he is willing to learn from mistakes.
<3 you djwheat keep up the passion and your fantastic work!
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I don't see the VOD for this. Is it going to be put up? Or am I stupid and I missed it?
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Two Thoughts for DJ Wheat:
1. The way you handled the entire show was actually incredibly good. You managed to play devil's advocate, and unfortunately for the first hour when you tossed it to Milkis he couldn't deliver anything worthwhile. Why waste airtime on that? You kept it moving and let AG talk, and that was a great decision. He actually had something to say!
Milkis could rarely form clear sentences, using 'like' every other word, always sounded like he was backpedaling, and had virtually nothing to offer to the conversation.
After the break Milkis started making much more sense, and the flow of the show was better. I actually thought it was a great back and forth. Around 1:20:00 I don't think Milkis had anything relevant to add.
You had a golden opportunity to ask Milkis to extrapolate on what he means by asking EG to be "culturally sensitive". I've lived and done business in Korea for the past 3 years, and I'm headed back there. Korea is AWESOME and the culture has some really beautiful things in it. But this argument is bogus. Take a look at the iPhone releases in Korea, and you'll see the isolationist tendencies. AG touched on this with outrageous contract buyouts. Trust me, there is nothing in Korean business culture that says I need to go talk to some IT guy's manager if I want to hire him. That's at the discretion of the IT guy.
Why not ask Milkis why the TSL coach essentially ruined such a happy moment for a 19 year-old?? Puma had a wonderful deal to join EG, could have done it peacefully and amicably, and his coach showed no respect for his player by posting before any contract was even signed and without talking with AG. All this rhetoric about this coach as "father figure" is null and void, and I frankly think his behavior is disgusting.
2. Keep up the great work, and I'd encourage you to have more guests. You have some skillz when it comes to working the back-and-forth, and you had some really incisive comments. I've only known you as a caster, but now I plan on tuning in for all of your shows.
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VODs are up at: http://WeaponOfChoice.blip.tv
I've now gotten to sleep on this and wanted to make some final points before I lose things out:
- Slasher and I DID attempt to get Coach Lee on the show. There was minimal communication, but it boiled down to the fact that the Korean side didn't feel comfortable in being able to express what they needed or wanted to express in English. In hindsight I'm glad we didn't try to force the issue because it could have been even more one-sided. I have to thank Slasher for attempting to make this happen.
- I've probably hosted over a thousand shows in my lifetime (if not more) and this was by far one of the toughest I've done. Yes I learned a shitload. I learned that my true skill for "interviews" lies in a 1v1 capacity. I learned that there are better ways to handle a 2 Guest/1 Moderator situation and I will be trying to refine and improve this personally. I've taken a lot of the feedback in this thread and jotted it down in my Show Journal. I think it's really important that we have this type of medium to get information and have good discussion on... however, I see the flaws in what occurred last night and I do think these things can be fixed to maximize the effectiveness of the guests and the topics being discussed.
- I cried over spilled milk (in this thread). I realized (thanks to some awesome TL members) that I shouldn't dwell on it and just aspire to improve. I get blinded by my own passion sometimes and so I do apologize to the community for that. It was a knee-jerk reaction.
Thanks for the comments, good and bad (well most of them  ), and I hope I can improve on this type of content and deliver the expected product in the future.
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EPT
