EPTPatch 8 Discussion - Page 45
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BG1
Canada1550 Posts
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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Wintermute
United States427 Posts
On April 08 2010 16:27 avilo wrote: this thread makes me lol in delight at whiney Zerg players that are frustrated they can no longer play Yea, those idiots should have been using their skillful Sentry/Stalker equivalents... that they don't have. Zerg don't have the tools for finesse. Even their caster unit is largely a delivery system for fungal growth, whose primary purpose is to make their over run tactics easier. | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On April 08 2010 15:57 Pekkz wrote: If you dont want marauders to work vs immortal, then only mass marine would counter them. Protoss would add one collossus and terran would have to go Air vs toss every game. Yeah that would make everything alot better....? I want it so that you need EMP for marauders to beat Immortals cost-for-cost. although a mix of marines+marauders does and should beat immortals, which im totally cool with. I just hate that the basic spam/meat unit for any army can beat its counter cost-effectively, especially when that "counter" is higher in tech. | ||
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Fizban140
Korea (South)129 Posts
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nodule
Canada931 Posts
get it early enough, and you get back the old status quo, just like the marauder situation | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On April 08 2010 16:45 nodule wrote: for all zergs who are having trouble with the slightly lowered survivability of roach/hydra: perhaps try incorporating an earlier evo for +1 armor into your builds. get it early enough, and you get back the old status quo, just like the marauder situation It seems that zergs just need to find that perfect timing for upgrades so that a timing push from terran wouldn't screw everything. | ||
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Radiomouse
Netherlands209 Posts
On April 08 2010 16:23 GoDannY wrote: THIS (including the quotations) +1 Seriously, Protoss got nerfed all day and now all Zergs are crying since there beloved a-move-macro style didn't work out that easy anymore. Honestly - I have never ever seen a Zerg dropping me, doing harass (except muta-ling but thats another topic) and RARELY flanking me. It seems like most zerg tend to just group all their units on one hotkey and a-move in. OF COURSE the whole protoss army is build up to do the most damage on a frontal attack (meatwall of zeals, long ranged collossi in the back), same for metal-terran (hellions, tank and thors in the back). So what about using a little micro and map control to fight in a spot where you can flank, throw an arc around the opposing army and do some drop harass (speedlings are insane in a probeline)? I'm talking about the average ladder game - not the ones we sometimes see on streams. I'm glad they fixed the issue that a decent macro zerg simply can overrun and survive a frontal attack. Besides, how about using the burrow ability as suggested? This is a HUGE advantage but rarely used by Zerg - so seriously - try to start discovering the abilities of your race... there are lots of options still unused. With that patch, we've come one HUGE step closer to overall balance IMHO. Not to be rude, but how do you envision zerg harassing with a unit that is not muta/ling? Also, zerg drops are horrible, you spend 200/200 for limited space in an overlord even though you could spend 300/200 for unlimited space in a nydus worm. Flanking would work, were it not for proper sentry forcefield spam. How is burrow usefull against toss again? All proper protoss actually get an observer out before they start massing them immortals/colloxon. | ||
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arew
Lithuania1861 Posts
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On April 08 2010 16:57 Radiomouse wrote: Not to be rude, but how do you envision zerg harassing with a unit that is not muta/ling? Also, zerg drops are horrible, you spend 200/200 for limited space in an overlord even though you could spend 300/200 for unlimited space in a nydus worm. Flanking would work, were it not for proper sentry forcefield spam. How is burrow usefull against toss again? All proper protoss actually get an observer out before they start massing them immortals/colloxon. if you read my original post, i suggested using them vs terran not toss, since ravens are much higher tech/rarer than obs. But you just proved your lack of thought by presenting a situation in which burrow-move would be helpful. Burrowed roaches are not stopped by force-field, thus use burrow to flank their army, utilizing that huge regeneration bonus to shrug off damage while you get into position. try that rather than having your units stuck behind the FF wall and just complaining while 1/2 your army can a-move and the other 1/2 cant. On April 08 2010 16:40 Wintermute wrote: Yea, those idiots should have been using their skillful Sentry/Stalker equivalents... that they don't have. Zerg don't have the tools for finesse. Even their caster unit is largely a delivery system for fungal growth, whose primary purpose is to make their over run tactics easier. thoughts on what zerg could be doing instead of A-moving: drops: you have overlords, you basically get free speed upgrade so all you need is the drop upgrade, why not utilize that advantage vs a slower ball-oriented army? nothing's changed from BW to SC2 to make this less effective. People seem to forget that overlords are transports with the advent of the nydus worm. seriously just learn to abuse your mobility advantage, use a nydus on his third base with no units to draw his army there then drop his main. Baneling-bomb the army: marauders cant attack air and terrans generally have few marines, either way your overlords can easily drop banelings onto 5-6 units in their blob for 20-35 damage at relatively little cost. might not work against toss tho. Baneling the depots/pylons, 5 banelings kill 4 depots or pylons. 250-125 for 400 minerals and major supply blockage Baneling the mineral line, most terrans/toss dont have any AA at base unless you open mutas, drop 2-4 banelings in their nat and kill all the workers Using roaches to harass: burrow-move into their base and kill off key structures/workers, you should be able to find a hole in the cannon/turrets, assuming they even build them, plus obs wont stay at base and ravens are high up the tech tree. Hell just leave a roach in his base and you have your very own observer that you always whine about for 75/25 instead of 50/100 Fungal growth workers: poor mans storm drop, takes 2 casts to kill, but also stops them from mining at a base for the duration and if you have the 150 energy needed its unlikely he'll be able to get back in time to save the workers. Plus you might not even lose the infestor, just burrow-move it away for pick it up and run with overlord. Corrupt key tech buildings: i'm pretty sure 2 corrupters can keep a building non-functional indefinitely, there are obvious repercussions to significantly delaying your opponent from getting collosi/+1 atk/ravens/HSM/whatever you dont want him to get. in order to stop it they have to stay in their base or invest significantly in defense (killing a 200 hp air unit before it can cast something is pretty hard, even killing it before it casts/runs takes alot of investment) I dont play zerg and can think of 1/2 a dozen of "finesse" techniques that can do alot of damage/help you with without massing and A-moving. your turn to think instead of whining and claiming its not possible/wont work. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. Thor is the biggest counter to mutalisks ever. It's not even fair. 3 thors can kill infinite mutalisks. 1 thor can defend your base vs early muta no problem. Combine a few turrets in your minlines and muta are completely worthless. Sounds like the voice of theory instead of actual practice. Thors aren't a good counter to mutas for the reasons I already outlined. | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
Besides, how about using the burrow ability as suggested? This is a HUGE advantage but rarely used by Zerg - so seriously - try to start discovering the abilities of your race... there are lots of options still unused. I used to do it all the time early on in the beta. But it was hard enough to make it work before the move speed and burrowed regen got nerfed. Now it's almost impossible. It should also be pointed out that the burrowed-movement requires two separate upgrades totaling 250/250. And since Roaches don't regenerate very much while burrowed, there's not much to gain from burrow alone. If the previous nerfs could be rolled back (50/50 burrow cost, more regen while burrowed, more burrow movement speed), the -1 armor nerf wouldn't be so bad. As it stands now, it's simply not worth the effort. thoughts on what zerg could be doing instead of A-moving: It's funny how each and every suggestion you make would be immediately shut down with Turrets. For a scant 100 minerals, all of these options disappear. | ||
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
On April 08 2010 17:08 Chen wrote: thoughts on what zerg could be doing instead of A-moving: drops: you have overlords, you basically get free speed upgrade so all you need is the drop upgrade, why not utilize that advantage vs a slower ball-oriented army? nothing's changed from BW to SC2 to make this less effective. People seem to forget that overlords are transports with the advent of the nydus worm. seriously just learn to abuse your mobility advantage, use a nydus on his third base with no units to draw his army there then drop his main. Baneling-bomb the army: marauders cant attack air and terrans generally have few marines, either way your overlords can easily drop banelings onto 5-6 units in their blob for 20-35 damage at relatively little cost. might not work against toss tho. Baneling the depots/pylons, 5 banelings kill 4 depots or pylons. 250-125 for 400 minerals and major supply blockage Baneling the mineral line, most terrans/toss dont have any AA at base unless you open mutas, drop 2-4 banelings in their nat and kill all the workers Using roaches to harass: burrow-move into their base and kill off key structures/workers, you should be able to find a hole in the cannon/turrets, assuming they even build them, plus obs wont stay at base and ravens are high up the tech tree. Hell just leave a roach in his base and you have your very own observer that you always whine about for 75/25 instead of 50/100 Fungal growth workers: poor mans storm drop, takes 2 casts to kill, but also stops them from mining at a base for the duration and if you have the 150 energy needed its unlikely he'll be able to get back in time to save the workers. Plus you might not even lose the infestor, just burrow-move it away for pick it up and run with overlord. Corrupt key tech buildings: i'm pretty sure 2 corrupters can keep a building non-functional indefinitely, there are obvious repercussions to significantly delaying your opponent from getting collosi/+1 atk/ravens/HSM/whatever you dont want him to get. in order to stop it they have to stay in their base or invest significantly in defense (killing a 200 hp air unit before it can cast something is pretty hard, even killing it before it casts/runs takes alot of investment) I dont play zerg and can think of 1/2 a dozen of "finesse" techniques that can do alot of damage/help you with without massing and A-moving. your turn to think instead of whining and claiming its not possible/wont work. Quite honestly the hardest part is just getting to a point in the game where u can do any of that. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
On April 08 2010 17:09 shinosai wrote: Sounds like the voice of theory instead of actual practice. Thors aren't a good counter to mutas for the reasons I already outlined. I'm guessing you said because thors are so slow but really you only need def from zerg until you have enough to pushout and the mutas are close to useless at that point. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 08 2010 16:40 Wintermute wrote: Yea, those idiots should have been using their skillful Sentry/Stalker equivalents... that they don't have. Zerg don't have the tools for finesse. Even their caster unit is largely a delivery system for fungal growth, whose primary purpose is to make their over run tactics easier. O Rly? On April 08 2010 16:57 Radiomouse wrote: Not to be rude, but how do you envision zerg harassing with a unit that is not muta/ling? Also, zerg drops are horrible, you spend 200/200 for limited space in an overlord even though you could spend 300/200 for unlimited space in a nydus worm. Flanking would work, were it not for proper sentry forcefield spam. How is burrow usefull against toss again? All proper protoss actually get an observer out before they start massing them immortals/colloxon.
So just because you dont want to be creative and sit in your "I am Zerg, so I MUST MASS UNITS AND ATTACK AS A HORDE"-mindset dont blame us for asking for a Nerf to that kind of boring junk. | ||
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iRRelevance
Romania725 Posts
"Korea Added support to display the game rating information on the login screen." - korean buff IMBAAA | ||
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GoDannY
Germany442 Posts
On April 08 2010 16:57 Radiomouse wrote: Not to be rude, but how do you envision zerg harassing with a unit that is not muta/ling? Also, zerg drops are horrible, you spend 200/200 for limited space in an overlord even though you could spend 300/200 for unlimited space in a nydus worm. Flanking would work, were it not for proper sentry forcefield spam. How is burrow usefull against toss again? All proper protoss actually get an observer out before they start massing them immortals/colloxon. Well, you already named two good options yourself. Other rathes have to pay also for having the unit cargo ability (warp prism 200mins for instance. Zergs upgrade is more expensive, thats true, but by that time you have plenty of "dropships" available, don't you? If you dont desire a suicide you won't even loose one of these. Next question: what to drop? Speedlings kill probes and SCVs faster than someone might react (and one or two loaded overlords will do) - and can easily kick off some pylons or key structures. Furthermore you can scout his tech and keep some probes of mining. Big deal for a few lings and one upgrade if you ask me. Nydus worm is also nice and pretty hard to outmicro too, as you can see plenty of replays how to use it efficient. Proper FF use is pretty much a micro related discussion - and chopping of half of your army is only possible on tiny spots - so we are back to positioning. To actually trap in units are a lot of sentries needed which are weak in a stand-up fight and cost tons of gas - so if you dont offer the Protoss an opportunity to demolish your army - he's screwed most of the times. I personally dont think they are imbalanced, just the new key supporter of Protoss since they lost Reaver, Archons (basicly) and corsairs. (I played both, Zerg and Toss so I know FF can be quite annoying). Tough many Zerg players underestimate the use of creep and faster movement which is HUGE and needs to be named in the FF discussion. Yeah most Protoss have observers available but usually just use one or two to scout for tech and expos and dont have them with theit main army. Burrowed roaches can move under forcefields to escape the trap (never cared about it, but dont they move faster burrowed when under creep as well?). Besides, arent banelings a good trap - never seen someone trying it so far. Furthermore I havent seen many Zerg using good ol' Ultralisks when they took the gold expo and one more (so clearly ready for a late game), just Hydra/Roach and MAY BE broodlords if they are in mood for that. Zerg isn't all about diversity, it never was and hopefully stay like that. Zerg is huge in map control (creep!!) and macro and that's they way they are supposed to be played. EDIT: Rabiator outlined it better :> | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
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arnold(soTa)
Sweden352 Posts
drops, banelings, nydus, roachburrow, burrow in general. brood lords creeptumors and overlords pooping creep etc etcetcetetetetc.......zerg is fakking awsome and you piss about not being able to A-move from the front...cmon, if zergs did tht in scbw they would been laughed off the server, it was about proper unit controll, surrounding and swarming using spells and microing at the same time. Fuck so many wc3 players here >.< need to clean up beta. | ||
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