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Patch 8 Discussion - Page 52

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Chen
Profile Joined June 2009
United States6344 Posts
April 08 2010 20:34 GMT
#1021
On April 09 2010 01:27 Wintermute wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2010 17:08 Chen wrote:

I dont play zerg and can think of 1/2 a dozen of "finesse" techniques that can do alot of damage/help you with without massing and A-moving. your turn to think instead of whining and claiming its not possible/wont work.


You said it yourself: you don't play zerg. Most of your suggestions are nonsensical gimmicks, or require an effort far out of proportion to their possible payoff. I mean, you're suggesting for example teching to spire, making corruptors, and having them alternate locking down a key tech building?

Does that REALLY make sense inside of your mind? I'm going to invest 200/200 in a spire, then 300/200 in a couple of corruptors, all so that I can lock down a single building that might at most cost 200/200 or something. And I'm going to pray that at NO POINT my opponent bothers to send over a marine or a stalker to drive away my corruptors, or builds a cannon or turret, or a thor, etc etc.

And all of this so that I can deny him what exactly? The only upgrade that's remotely worth that much trouble would be Stim, and he's going to have that long before you can even DREAM of getting a spire.

A much more likely scenario is that you just build some mutas, then go in and destroy that building. Not exactly finesse, but it's more efficient and direct.

Of the things you suggested, the only one(s) that are practical are drops. You don't see zerg do a lot of drops. Partially this is because they don't really have a good harassment unit, though in theory infestors could be dropped on a mineral line for hilarious effect. Baneling drops? Eh, maybe. Banelings are pretty expensive one shot units, so even if you succeed with your drop, it's possible to end up not ahead in eco.

One thing to keep in mind when it comes to zerg drops is that you can't even attempt them until you first get to Lair, and then invest 250/250 into speed and carrying ability for overlords. On top of that of course you're risking your supply cap in order to do a drop, so you will need to over produce overlords. It's an expensive strategy, and zerg lack a siege or harassment unit like lurkers, reavers, colossi, siege tanks, reapers, hellions, etc to make the effort efficient. You either drop a super low damage unit like roaches, or a fragile unit like lings, or a one time unit like banelings. Infestors might be good, but then you've got to wait for 75 energy each time you want to drop, which means waiting longer into the game.

P.S.-- I'm not ready to say that zerg are weak or helpless, only that to suggest that zerg have a multitude of finesse options like protoss or to a lesser extent terran is a joke.

obviously the corrupter idea is only if you're opening mutas >.> you have a brain use it plz.
plus i'm pretty sure a good player just used baneling drops in eco lings and showed how good it is.(spell vs kolll or whatev) maybe you'll try shit now instead of insisting it never works. these are all just examples, not to be taken at face value.
Also, im not saying that they have as many as the toss or terran, I'm just saying they have SOME. most zergs on this forum are making it out as if zerg has NO options other than mass units and A-move.
KungKras
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden484 Posts
April 08 2010 20:54 GMT
#1022
BEST..... PATCH ...... EVER!

Marauders really ruined the game for me before. I love early game micro and marauders just took that away from me. They can have their slow, just not when I wanna do cool early aggression or cheeses or just fake attacks to test my opponent's defence.

Anyway, I love what they did with the void ray. It seems like a much more soft-counter-ish unit now. Being better agains non-armoured and a little less cost-efficient vs armoured.

Has anyone thought of this: Perhaps Blizzard intentionally gave the beta very hard unit counters so that they could intentionally tone them down while they balance the game?
"When life gives me lemons, I go look for oranges"
Sting
Profile Joined May 2003
Serbia76 Posts
April 08 2010 21:00 GMT
#1023
I think they studied how SC:BW balancing evolution was progressing and are trying to repeat the phases of the process. Ofc they are trying to speed it up A LOT.
Resurrection : Life sux and then you die. And then, life sux again...
jodogohoo
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada2533 Posts
April 08 2010 21:56 GMT
#1024
FUCK YEAH BLIZZARD
Nightwolf
Profile Joined March 2010
United States10 Posts
April 08 2010 22:49 GMT
#1025
best patch to date. roaches finally closer to where they should be for price and tier.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
April 08 2010 23:31 GMT
#1026
On April 09 2010 05:54 KungKras wrote:
BEST..... PATCH ...... EVER!

Marauders really ruined the game for me before. I love early game micro and marauders just took that away from me. They can have their slow, just not when I wanna do cool early aggression or cheeses or just fake attacks to test my opponent's defence.

Anyway, I love what they did with the void ray. It seems like a much more soft-counter-ish unit now. Being better agains non-armoured and a little less cost-efficient vs armoured.

Has anyone thought of this: Perhaps Blizzard intentionally gave the beta very hard unit counters so that they could intentionally tone them down while they balance the game?

Yeah, thought about it. But Sc1 had some hard counters too...
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Stropheum
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1124 Posts
April 08 2010 23:37 GMT
#1027
On April 08 2010 02:41 Puosu wrote:
Roach armor nerf means that zerglings will now be the main opening in ZvZ, no?
The hydra nerf also makes me believe they're trying to bring back ling/muta in to zvz, nice imo.


God no. ZvZ is the same
GeMicles
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada307 Posts
April 08 2010 23:43 GMT
#1028
jesus the void rays are already useless enough, imagine how many people are going to use them now?
but i liked the zerg and terran nerfs.
i pikachu in the shower
Darkn3ss
Profile Joined November 2009
United States717 Posts
April 09 2010 00:03 GMT
#1029
Hwat about Imbortals?! -.-
Dont quote me boy, cuz I aint saying shhh...
Vexx
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States462 Posts
April 09 2010 00:38 GMT
#1030
"Best patch ever"

Why aren't you guys sharing those amazing drugs?
I am not nice.
Tristan
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada566 Posts
April 09 2010 00:40 GMT
#1031
Zerg is having to rewrite their playbooks in every matchup.
http://Zangano431.tumblr.com/
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
April 09 2010 00:42 GMT
#1032
On April 09 2010 09:40 TheElitists wrote:
Zerg is having to rewrite their playbooks in every matchup.

Shouldn't take long since they only have like 4 units rite?
Zeke50100
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2220 Posts
April 09 2010 00:43 GMT
#1033
Wait, Zerg players have to think now? It's the end of the world!

Roaches were so powerful that they overcentralized the entire game >.>
Dox
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia1199 Posts
April 09 2010 00:46 GMT
#1034
The reduced build time on the Siege Tanks doesn't help much at all... because you still can't afford to produce them with reasonable support from 1 base. At this rate, the only "viable" mech utility feels like being forced into dominating early game eco with FE & Hellion Harass. At which point your tech & production options are limitless anyway.

The Immortal and the Marauder really limit our mech options.
@NvDox | Plantronics Nv: Rossi . mOOnGLaDe . deth . JazBas | @NvSC2 | @NvCoD | @NvLeague | @NvHearthstone | @NvDotA2 | @PLT_MF
Fwiffo
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada57 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-09 03:58:46
April 09 2010 03:46 GMT
#1035
On paper Void Rays got a damage nerf. Now instead for the first 12 seconds of sustained fire (if you can) you've got the damage output of a flying marine! Hope that's helpful.
Nightwolf
Profile Joined March 2010
United States10 Posts
April 09 2010 16:52 GMT
#1036
definitely the best balance to date. marauders with the concussion shells to start off with made it too easy for a terran player to mass marauder and roll over the competition...nothing could get too them fast enough to kill half, let alone the entire, army.
Koffiegast
Profile Joined February 2010
Netherlands346 Posts
April 09 2010 17:05 GMT
#1037
On April 10 2010 01:52 Nightwolf wrote:
definitely the best balance to date. marauders with the concussion shells to start off with made it too easy for a terran player to mass marauder and roll over the competition...nothing could get too them fast enough to kill half, let alone the entire, army.



Why do people think this is the best patch?

I honestly don't get it.

The marauder change doesnt do anything for mid/lategame.
Early game, the marauder was usefull against reapers and afaik really early game marauders weren't that critical mass anyways.

Void Ray is a change, and apparently it kills queen faster than before.

Roach got nerfed ultra hard. And hydra, totally uncalled for, as well. The whole problem with Z is that it lacks much diversity. All it can do is hope the opponent makes stupid mistakes and allows the Z to use mutas to harass, or use infestors to actually get a NP off, OR totally outmacro and win by simply having a 3+ to 1 ratio and hope HSM's dont kill all your units.

So far, the overall gameplay hasn't changed at all, and the balance is changed but whether it turned out for the better...
Wut
WorkersOfTheWorld
Profile Joined April 2010
United States619 Posts
April 09 2010 18:31 GMT
#1038
On April 10 2010 02:05 Koffiegast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2010 01:52 Nightwolf wrote:
definitely the best balance to date. marauders with the concussion shells to start off with made it too easy for a terran player to mass marauder and roll over the competition...nothing could get too them fast enough to kill half, let alone the entire, army.



Why do people think this is the best patch?

I honestly don't get it.

The marauder change doesnt do anything for mid/lategame.
Early game, the marauder was usefull against reapers and afaik really early game marauders weren't that critical mass anyways.

Void Ray is a change, and apparently it kills queen faster than before.

Roach got nerfed ultra hard. And hydra, totally uncalled for, as well. The whole problem with Z is that it lacks much diversity. All it can do is hope the opponent makes stupid mistakes and allows the Z to use mutas to harass, or use infestors to actually get a NP off, OR totally outmacro and win by simply having a 3+ to 1 ratio and hope HSM's dont kill all your units.

So far, the overall gameplay hasn't changed at all, and the balance is changed but whether it turned out for the better...



Compared to other patces? I dunno.

Marauders didn't get enough nerfing, but i'm sure more nerfs will be inc. since terran are still massing them to the exclusion of almost any other units still, and they're still the most cost effective damage on the ground by too wide a margin.

Void Ray change was a red-herring. It hasn't made the diffirence between a success or failure of a harass against zerg, but it hasn't helped the void-ray do too much in a standing army either. Still a pathetic air unit with a very narrow role.

Roaches didn't get nerfed too hard, and neither did hydras. Evidenced by the new ICCUP champ being a zerg player who won with almost exclusively roach/hydra builds against LZgamer's unstoppable marauder mass. The korean zerg have also used the roach post-patch, just not to the exclusion of other units. Muta harass has been, and probably always will be, one of the most potent containment and harassment mid-game plays you can make. Infestors are critical for fungal growth, not that other shit, and you simly always out-macro your opponent unless you're an awful zerg player who cannot make use of his queen.

Balance hasn't even shifted really. The problems with PvZ are still very real (hard to answer mutas and bane/speedling contain). The marauder still dominated PvT and the faster build time on thor make it a viable option for shutting down air unit counters. The only matchup that seem to have changed significantly is ZvZ, and that was clearly for the better.
Samwise: You don't want to play Dustin [Browder]. He can't even beat the UI, let alone the AI. -
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