On February 28 2010 11:41 LunarC wrote: Disclaimer: I'm not in beta.
But as a spectator, I think the greatest thing about SC1 was how unit mixes would complement one another, rather than simply counter the opponent's army. ZvT Lurker/Ling was exciting because while Zerglings were mobile and weak, Lurkers were position-dependent and strong. Add in Scourge that could easily destroy the only unit that made going against Lurkers easier, and you have a very intense and dynamic battle. Dynamic not in the sense that every unit is mobile, but dynamic in the feeling of tension. As a spectator, I really don't feel that same sense of dynamic tension in an SC2 battle because everything is just moving and attacking. Few things have to be positioned correctly to deal its damage, like the Reaver, Tank, or Lurker, without being vulnerable to its hard counter. It seems like SC2 units were designed around cute tactical possibilities rather than allowing for complex army control.
Example:
Stalker: It can warp around the map and back while sacrificing any semblence of being a solid unit. For being one of the staples of the protoss force, it's kind of unacceptable to cater to its concept of being a super mobile "base raider" tactical use rather than its actual usefullness in combat. It's like removing the marauder and forcing Terran to deal with the Reaper instead.
Roach: Fast regeneration tank. So why is there an Ultralisk? Roach makes Zerg less vulnerable at mid-game. What about the hydralisk? How about making the Roach's use more interesting within the context of the rest of the Zerg army?
Colossus: If this was meant to replace the Reaver/Shuttle, I can't see how it does so. It's not exciting to watch. There is no tension watching a Colossus march across the map, and there's little importance in positioning/control associated with the Colossus.
Immortal: It's way too strong to make mech viable within the context of the larger Protoss force. This discourages using the Seige Tank's positional advantage, which discourages army control beyond a-move. Maybe its strength is to make up for the Stalker's weakness whose weakness is to make up for its mobility which it has because somebody wanted Protoss to have a cute tactical unit that could warp around a lot. @&^*$#&^$*&
75% agree ^^'
I rly think the Stalker is a good "replacement" for the dragoon, because its not a easier/less interesting unit, but quite the opposite because of an interesting ability.
And thats what blizz should do: give units more skills, mobility etc: if theyre too strong - balance them. thats way better than a boring unit like immortal or collossus.
No. Enough artificially adding in more "micro" opportunities to clutter up the game in addition to the added in "macro" opporunities. The existing units are more than enough to work with and to create units that work well together given the micro commitment. This means make using units to their full potential more complex and don't make units so easy to use. Make poor control more punishing. Enough with more abilities, more options, more tactical stuff. The complexity will build itself if given a good foundation to build off of.
From what I've seen in sc2armory.com it looks like they temporarily removed the Lurker Den for beta testing. Though this leaves me to believe that they are actually thinking about removing the Lurker in general -_-. They're probably say "Oh we removed them because Zerg already has a unit that uses a unique burrow technique (Roaches) which in my opinion is stupid. Also you said the most interesting units were Scourge and Lurkers? I agree with you on lurkers... but you totally forgot about defilers.. how can you not like fucking plaguu? Plus the new spellcaster for Zerg is garbage compared to the Defiler. Fungal growth is like a very gimped Psi Storm, Infested Terrans.. LOL wtf do you use these for other than maybe a distraction? The only ability that could be good is Neural Parasite but it's still gonna be hard to pull off.
On February 28 2010 20:25 LunarC wrote: No. Enough artificially adding in more "micro" opportunities to clutter up the game in addition to the added in "macro" opporunities. The existing units are more than enough to work with and to create units that work well together given the micro commitment. This means make using units to their full potential more complex and don't make units so easy to use. Make poor control more punishing. Enough with more abilities, more options, more tactical stuff. The complexity will build itself if given a good foundation to build off of.
I get what you're saying with artificially implementing new stuff, but it's just a fact, that the AI is just so much better than in SC1 and one way to make Micro useful and necessary is just a crappy AI without superb pathfinding and auto-surround.
But if we want to have the same amount of complexity (and don't get me wrong; SC2 is complex and definitely one of the Top-3 Games out there in terms of complexity, but SC1 is just more complex), certain changes have to be made. If you want to measure SC2 up against these incredibly high standards, you would pretty much either have to mess around with the engine so maybe it's harder to surround with lings and make Mutastacking etc. possible, or you have to implement new stuff. Of course just If you wan't SC2 to be even more complex. For some this may not be as important, but if you think of SC2 as being a game thats gonna be played 10 years for now, It suddenly get's more and more important, because already some ppl from the beta say SC2 is more boring to watch and to play and that you have less options etc.
Also, it's always about the execution of certain Idea's and concepts: Ppl think Units in SC2 are too fast and have too good movement-options etc. that's one thing that's different from SC1, but is it bad? - I don't think so, because fast Units that are able to maybe jump up and down ramps or blink around, require a lot of Multitasking and Micro, which makes up for the fact, that microing is easier in general. Do I think every Unit needs some kind of special Spell or sth like that? No, because thats not the only way to make good micro possible, here are some examples that have nothing to do with special skills (like psystorm for example) or special movement-oriented passiveabilities (like being able to fly or jump up and down ramps):
Slow attack speed, fast attack animation: Imagine a constant ray, like the one from the Sentry that does practically DoT for as long as you target the Enemy. With this sort of attack, you can't Micro without making the Unit less effective. Compare this with maybe an attack of a Dragoon from SC1: It had a kinda long "cooldown", but a faster Animation, which made "Dragoon-Dancing" possible. In SC1, there are kinda much Units that have this constant-DoT-Type of Attack and others can just shoot while walking (colossus if I'm not mistaken).
So this simple Aspect of a Unit is crucial in terms of Micro-possibilities.
DMG-Dealer VS Tank: - In SC1, almost any Unit that could deal a lot of DMG was very fragile and you had to micro and position them very carefully during Big Battles and also when harrassing (Reaver+Shuttle / High Templars / Defilers / Scourge). - Other Units we're harder to kill, but they didn't deal that much DMG compared to their cost (Ultras, Zealots and in big fights basically all the "backbone"-Units, even Dragoons, Zerglings, M&M's we're overshadowed by the DMG output of those Micro-intensive Units, that rewarded the player with their effectiveness). - The Mobility of a Unit was also very crucial: Most of the heavy-Dmg-dealers weren't really mobile, so you had to put them in shuttles/Dropships to utilize them effectively. Other Units were very Mobile, like Vultures, but they only did a good amount of DMG when harrassing, if you micro them extremely well.
- SC2 has much more "jacks of all trades" regarding the above mentoined Aspects. There are more Units that have many Hitpoints, but do huge amounts of DMG to certain Units. In regards of Movement and Positioning, SC2 lacks in real advantages for good positioning, with better pathfinding and much less high-ground-advantage than in SC1, and harrass-type Units that are worth playing are very scarce. Hellion maybe, but it's so hard to go Mech with T, cuz freaking Factory has no good AntiAir and Tanks are less effective because defensive macro-play is not that good anymore.) Also, Units that would be good for harrassing but maybe not the best choice for big fights we're it's mostly about having the right counterunits, can't be played right, because it's way easier to play from way fewer bases than in SC1. Imagine trying to harrass a Protoss-player with your Vultures, If he plays from one base: You can't even go up the ramp! -.-°
AoE-Dmg Units that naturally attack in some sort of AoE, like Hellions, Archons or Firebats from SC1 require a great deal of Micro in terms of positioning them right etc. Tanks aren't that good of an example, because of their huge range, but at least noteworthy.
Non-targeting Attack: I can't think of a Unit that has sth like that (that isn't a spell like PsyStorm) in SC1 or SC2: Just an attack that does not target a Unit, but can just be fired at a position. I'll explain this with an example: - I think many of you have played Diablo2, were it's possible to hold "Shift" while attacking or casting a spell, to just send the spell/attack in this direction without havin to actually click on a enemy. Why not create a Unit like this, that keeps firing maybe artillery-shots that do AoE Dmg at target location until you tell them to stop or Attack another Area. If those Units would also deal Dmg to your Units, you really had to think ahead and remember microing them etc.
Charging Attacks: Like with the Voidray, but not a constant Ray, but maybe just every third hit does a bit more DMg, or AoE DMG or is in some way better. Nothing Random like critical hits, but something you could get an advantage out of if you control the unit right. And just with this option, it would give the player an opportunity to really play on a whole other level if those better attacks are timed right and targetting the right enemy-Unit. You could for example retreat your Units that have a "charged attack" and then attack with extremely high power all at once to do more DMG the in the first crucial moments of the battle. you could time the Attacks in a way, that you don't overkill Units, so that every charged attack is used on targets that actually can receive the full amount of DMG and wouldn't be dead, even if you attacked with one uncharged attack,
The possibilities of microing and strategies are incredible, without implementing some fancy spell and despite a much better AI.
On February 28 2010 21:13 Sephy69 wrote: Plus the new spellcaster for Zerg is garbage compared to the Defiler. Fungal growth is like a very gimped Psi Storm, Infested Terrans.. LOL wtf do you use these for other than maybe a distraction? The only ability that could be good is Neural Parasite but it's still gonna be hard to pull off.
This just goes to show how little you've actually played around with the infestor. Fungal Growth is Psi Storm + Maelstorm. Infester Terrans are a fantastic compliment to Fungal Growth when harassing workers (Which is real easy with the mobile burrow), and the recent changes to Neual parasite makes it quite a bit better than "could be good".
I really think if anything the protoss is the most dissapointing. The zerg at least have a bunch of different builds, roachs, muats, lings, broodlords, corruptors, ultras and infestors all make for different builds. While the protoss just seems to be sentry zealot stalker ball every match-up, with your choice of support tech: immortal/stalker/pheonix/templar.
the zerg are fine right now. the only problem they have is with detection (over seers is way to expensive with the gas) and with infestors. infestors are useless as shit. fungal growth isnt even enought to kill proves/scvs/drones and the area of effect it has is a joke. its 10 second mind control is only good in pvz when u want to take control of a ht for a few seconds and storm the rest of the hts and the toss army.
they also need to bring back lurkers. once they do zerg will be complete. so here are my suggestions to make zerg perfect imo.
decrease price tag on morphing a overlord to a overseer.
fix investors PLEASE fix them. there literally a joke unit. at the very least increase the dmg fungal growth does to 100 or 200 and increase its area of effect. also either change the parasite ability to last longer then 10 seconds/being permanent or replace it with something entirely diffrent.
bring back lurkers.
do these things and zerg will be flawless and less boring.
On February 28 2010 23:50 Ballistixz wrote: I don't know what to do with Infestors because I'm not that great of a StarCraft II player. Since I have trouble admitting my imperfections, I'm going to blame the unit that I'm having trouble with, instead. I hope Blizzard caters to my inadequacies.
Fixed.
Honestly, I have no idea how you can call a damage + immobalization ability bad, and how you can marginalize the potential abuses of a less-risky MC-like ability.
The thing I hate the most about the zerg in sc2 is the sound. It's a problem across the entire game but the zerg sounds are by far the worst of the bunch. There's no death sounds at all for half the units it feels like. That hydra sound that made it so satisfying to slaughter entire armies of them is gone. Drones make almost no noise when they die, when they had that sound that made you cringe when you heard it because it was the sound of your economy going down the drain. You loved and hated that sound depending on what side of it you were on.
Attack sounds are just as bad, muta attack is terrible, etc. I really hope they fix them, otherwise I hope someone just makes a sc2 sound mod that adds all the original sounds to sc1
On February 28 2010 23:50 Ballistixz wrote: I don't know what to do with Infestors because I'm not that great of a StarCraft II player. Since I have trouble admitting my imperfections, I'm going to blame the unit that I'm having trouble with, instead. I hope Blizzard caters to my inadequacies.
Fixed.
Honestly, I have no idea how you can call a damage + immobalization ability bad, and how you can marginalize the potential abuses of a less-risky MC-like ability.
try actually using it in a game and ull see what im talking about. it makes no diffrence at all especially against a medic marine build. the only uses infestors will have is in pvz. in zvz and tvz its useless as shit.
honestly stop talking about "potential" and actually use it. u will see it "potential" is extremely limited. again pvz infestors are good. zvz and tvz not so much...
if anything its best used to harass mineral lines with the spawn infested terran ability. if u go infestors in a zvz or tvz spawn infested terrans will be the only usefull thing u will be using. the other 2 abilities are a joke in those match ups and wasted energy. save up ur energy for infested terrans cuz again thats all ur gonna be using in zvz and tvz. or u MIGHT see the 10 second mincontrol in a zvz in the rare chance u get late game and u see ultras. but most zvz dont last that long and even if it did u wont be seeing ultras because roaches and hydras rape them.
I raped a bio army by NP'ing the medivacs. NP is like taking a unit out of the field for 10 seconds and you get to control it as a bonus given that you can keep the infestor alive.
On March 01 2010 05:08 lolaloc wrote: I raped a bio army by NP'ing the medivacs. NP is like taking a unit out of the field for 10 seconds and you get to control it as a bonus given that you can keep the infestor alive.
did his bio army have tanks and ravens to back up his M&M&M? if he did then any decent player would not let his entire fleet of medivacs get MCed lol. and even if u did tanks should have been enought dmg back up to push u back.
What if Infestors, instead of infested Terran, had this ability researchable at hive tech, that creates like a little cloud of some sort over a certain area, for a certain period of time, that blocked ranged attacks, and lowered ranged attacks that did over 10 damage to half damage? (*A*)
I'm actually a lil dissapointed on zerg's design. They removed the awesome sauce lurker and added some really bland boring units like the roach and baneling. The caster has nothing crazy new either, and the rest of the units are either old or are simply versions of the old ones. Also the ingame sounds are horrible for now.
On February 27 2010 00:20 HowardRoark wrote: This post is not about balance or about the hard counter nature of SC2 (which I am not sure I like at all), but about the units of Zerg.
To sum up the Zerg of SC2: They removed two of the most interesting units of the Zerg, Lurker and Scourge (which had a distinct feel and that was very unique to Zerg), and added the anonymous Roach, which is like a Hydra without air attack, and the Baneling. They cut the wings of the Queen and made her useful. They kept the Mutalisk, and changed the name and looks of the Devourer, that still however can evolve into the Guardian-like Brood Lord. They kept the Ultralisk, but renamed the Defiler to Infestor and downgraded its abilities.
For every change Blizzard did to the SC2 Zerg compared to the SC1 Zerg, the only one I find interesting was to cut the wings of the Scourge into Baneling.
I do think that SC2 needs new units and abilities, but compared to the SC2 Protoss which is very interesting, the SC2 Zerg units feels like an alpha build of SC1 (with flashy graphics indeed). The new unit composition of Zerg does not enhance the uniqueness of Zerg, rather diminishing it.
The SC2 Protoss however, while keeping most of the interesting units from SC1, added a lot of new interesting ones: the Collossi, the Immortal and the Stalker (instead of the Dragoon), the Mothership, the Sentry, the Void Ray, Warp Prism and added a lot of interesting fresh features to these units.
Also, certain parts of the Terran is IMHO rather bland ATM compared to the colorful SC1 "tripple entente" of the M&M+Firebat. SC2 Terran feels like you have 4 sizes of Marine, first the standard Marine, then the bigger Marauder, FlyingMarine Reaper and finally the MegaMarine Thor. However though, not as "uninteresting" as the current build of Zerg.
To sum it up: Protoss got a very interesting overhaul with a great mix of new and old units and abilities, but I do not feel Zerg got the same quality treatment from Blizzard. Sure, I can just play Protoss and care little about Zerg but in the long run I guess it will be rather boring only playing lots of PvP matches.
One ingredient why SC1 is such a great game is that every race was so geniously well crafted; and I wish Blizzard would treat the Zerg as they did treat the new Protoss. SC2 is not SC1, so new and fresh units is a must, aslong as they are interesting and provide uniqueness to each race. Removing the Lurker and adding the anon. Roach just because Blizzard feel they need to alter the unit composition of Zerg is not the right way to go.
What do you think of SC2 style Zerg?
Cry some more!
Reapers are just marines with jetpacks hellions are just vultures without mines and a flamethrower stalkers are just dragoons with blink mothership is just an arbiter but with some new abilities
^These are the things that make the game different, and why new exciting strategies will form. I have to agree with what a lot of people have said; Zerg still feel like 'a mass a bunch of units and keep ploughing into a wall untill you knock it down' race. The only thing i dislike about zerg is the sound effects
Wow, just posted something very similar on a youtube replay video about the Sentry by Husky. I'm not the only one who feels Zerg lack something and have been nerfed too much.
feature=youtube_gdata
In SC1, you have lurker/hydra guardian combos that work well together, add in some dark swarm or ensnare even better and fun to watch when it's done right. These kinds of combos really add depth and fun to the game. We need more of these combos to add deeper tactics in SC2.
Spells
One thing I've noticed from watching SC2 replays is that people aren't using spellcasting units. That gives me the feeling that they don't seem worth the cost in player's opinions.
Either they just haven't figured out how to use them effectively or they are just not cost effective or worth it. I think there's room for more interesting spells that will change the tactical play. Perhaps with an expansion. Spells seem lacking so far.
Dark Swarm: bring it back, the most original and best tactical spell from SC1 is taken out?
Confusion: Causes units to attack nearest unit, whether that be friend of foe.
Panic: Causes units to flee the battle.
Blind: causes units to miss their hits 50%
Stinking cloud: like d&d, percent chance units die upon entering
Grease/slime: area is covered with slime reducing movement of enemy units only. A good obstacle creator like force field.
Crippler worm: some unit spews worms that eat into the electronics, degrades attacks and defense and shields, like a level drain.
Current Units
Roach: I 'd like to see some kind of benefit of attacking with multiple unit types rather than just one type. I see zerg going mass roaches all the time. That will become boring if everyone just goes roaches all the time. Maybe the other units need to be buffed up to make them worthwhile?
Yes the name is unappealing, it's a blatant insectoid name yet I feel the zerg isn't exactly an insectoid race. Zerg I feel is something unique and I liked this uniqueness; Kind of a cross between reptile and insect. In SC2 I feel it's become an insectoid race. I think this name should change to something unique. Just about anything could be better; burrower, creeper, rogue, lingerer. Almost every replay I've seen, Zerg players are going for mass roaches. Kind of boring if all we'll see is mass roaches 80% of the time.
Unit Ideas Leviathan: Zerg need a new monstrous unit like the mothership. I'm thinking a large worm that travels underground in stealth like a Roach. Has these abilities:
Splash Damage: Something this big will attack multiple clumps of units at once.
Devour: (consumes clumps of up to 4 enemy units of small to medium size for a certain amount of mana, 100% chance)
Grapple/constrict: (binds clumps of land units like a python)
Tunnel: (damages target building by tunneling under it and undermining its foundation),
Tremor: (causes an earthquake type effect that damages enemy buildings and slows enemy units.
Summoner/Queen: Enhance the queen. I'm thinking a zerg summoner would be kick ass. A summoner that can summon mass units quickly at cost of mana.
Summon: Ok good she has summons. Summons broodlings, zergs, something as her summoned unit. However this unit cannot be consumed for mana or for very little mana; would be an endless supply of mana. Make the excuse that it's too small not enough mana energy.
Consume: Give the damn queen consume with a cool animation. You know it needs to happen. What's a zerg queen without consume? lol
Adrenal Aura/Vampiric Aura: Thinking of COTA from DOTA. The commander would increase unit attack speed, increase their attack damage, add a slow effect upon hit, add vampiric attack (life stealing attack given to units in queen's aura). Her Auras effect not just her broodlings but all friendly zerg units.
Mana Regen Upgrade: This is a static upgrade that increases the mana regeneration rate of the summoner/queen. This is in order to keep up effectively with summons.
Lurker: bring back the lurker. Why take out the best iconic units of Zerg and replace them with something called a Roach? Roaches should be called Creepers and should evolve into Lurkers and be able to travel underground and attack from underground with the upgrade. Lurker is a damn cool name too. Let's call the Roach 'Penetrator' in tribute to Jaedong. lol Burrower sounds cool too. Just about anything is better than Roach.
Hydra: just like the hydras from legend, can add a twist like burrows. Ok got it, upgrade leviathan to multiple heads. There we go. Can upgrade number of heads for multiple attacks.
Unit enhancements
Hydralisks: Poisonous spines. Once you're hit by the hydra it does residual damage after. Think Veno from DOTA. In fact DOTA is full of great ideas for spells, abilities.
Infestor: How about vary the time of Mind Control depending on unit size. An SCV can be controlled longer than say an Ultralisk. I think all units should be able to be controlled. Otherwise why bother getting the spell? Spells need to be powerful to make them worth it, to make them game breakers/changers when used effectively.
On February 27 2010 01:13 CharlieMurphy wrote: i always disliked roaches ever since I heard the name, it didn't sound zerglike at all.
The name is a fairly minor detail but I super agree with this. All the other units are made up words (*lisk, zerglings) or describe (more or less) what they do. None of them are named after generic terrestrial life forms. I mean what if other zerg units were called spiders, or preying mantises? Or scorpions? Just so generic and blah. As for how they play I unfortunately have no idea yet (from personal experience that is)
My 1st impression from my 1st game as zerg v crap ai was the insane number of larva I had, rather then a struggle to get larva the game changed to give zerg more of a zerg feel with a larger army size compared to smaller army sizes early on. This is such a huge thing.
But my gripe is that I feel no variety in getting towards late game. My main issue is the infester being so rubbish. P & T have Storm, Nuke & Siege respectively but Zerg has lost a huge part of there character in losing Swarm Cloud, Plague and Lurkers. Turning them into a smash my army into there army kind of feeling rather then use proper placement of lurkers and swarm and plague appropriately.
It 'might' be a good thing in that the feel of the race is being changed but I'd definitely like similar micro units to come in to replace the defiler and lurker in how they rewarded good micro/decision making otherwise it just feels like every game is rush to achieve critical mass and push through front and trade armies then remake mass faster then opponent and push again or back door with a sneaky nydus(very fun, my favorite change of Zerg in the game).
The variety with Zerg feels very limited even though there are things to do, I think Infester need to be completely reworked in some fashion(maybe the recent infested marines change is what was needed but I really liked Plague & Swarm, something with a similar feel rather then the terrible ensnare remake maybe).
Oh and for a super weapon/unit/ability I think similar to Terran Nuke Zerg to drop a Cerebrate or Overmind Bomb which spawns an mini cerebrate or mini overmind with tentacles which can roll around like a ball and burrow in to turn into tentancle lashing mode. Maybe something similar to a mini C'Thun from WoW would be imba cool. It could cost a hatchery or Hive or something and be ridiculously good.
EPT
(from personal experience that is)
