This post is not about balance or about the hard counter nature of SC2 (which I am not sure I like at all), but about the units of Zerg.
To sum up the Zerg of SC2: They removed two of the most interesting units of the Zerg, Lurker and Scourge (which had a distinct feel and that was very unique to Zerg), and added the anonymous Roach, which is like a Hydra without air attack, and the Baneling. They cut the wings of the Queen and made her useful. They kept the Mutalisk, and changed the name and looks of the Devourer, that still however can evolve into the Guardian-like Brood Lord. They kept the Ultralisk, but renamed the Defiler to Infestor and downgraded its abilities.
For every change Blizzard did to the SC2 Zerg compared to the SC1 Zerg, the only one I find interesting was to cut the wings of the Scourge into Baneling.
I do think that SC2 needs new units and abilities, but compared to the SC2 Protoss which is very interesting, the SC2 Zerg units feels like an alpha build of SC1 (with flashy graphics indeed). The new unit composition of Zerg does not enhance the uniqueness of Zerg, rather diminishing it.
The SC2 Protoss however, while keeping most of the interesting units from SC1, added a lot of new interesting ones: the Collossi, the Immortal and the Stalker (instead of the Dragoon), the Mothership, the Sentry, the Void Ray, Warp Prism and added a lot of interesting fresh features to these units.
Also, certain parts of the Terran is IMHO rather bland ATM compared to the colorful SC1 "tripple entente" of the M&M+Firebat. SC2 Terran feels like you have 4 sizes of Marine, first the standard Marine, then the bigger Marauder, FlyingMarine Reaper and finally the MegaMarine Thor. However though, not as "uninteresting" as the current build of Zerg.
To sum it up: Protoss got a very interesting overhaul with a great mix of new and old units and abilities, but I do not feel Zerg got the same quality treatment from Blizzard. Sure, I can just play Protoss and care little about Zerg but in the long run I guess it will be rather boring only playing lots of PvP matches.
One ingredient why SC1 is such a great game is that every race was so geniously well crafted; and I wish Blizzard would treat the Zerg as they did treat the new Protoss. SC2 is not SC1, so new and fresh units is a must, aslong as they are interesting and provide uniqueness to each race. Removing the Lurker and adding the anon. Roach just because Blizzard feel they need to alter the unit composition of Zerg is not the right way to go.
I actually really like how zerg play right now. You need a good mix of units to be effective in battles.
The new queen is great! And her role actually fits her name. She stays in the nest, lays eggs, spreads creep, watches over all the cute little larva, etc.
Banelings are hilarious, and feel downright OP when playing as terran.
Sure the infestor needs some buffing, and the only time I ever use a corrupter is against a terran player who uses planetary fortresses, but it's still early. They'll get fixed.
Right now I find that you need such a good mix of units to really be effective. Roaches up front taking damage, as they are great tanks. Hydras right behind them doing crazy damage, banelings asploding all over the place, (though you really need to micro these guys or they will all blow themselves up on like one non-light unit), and zerglings surrounding and trapping and generally dying horribly.
I think the Queen makes SC2 Zerg have a great zerg feel.
The Queen abilities really bring out the swarm. With a lot more larvae and the ability to creep all over the map. Burrow move is also a very cute thing and very fun to play with. Nydus Worms are also very zerg in their feel to me, infesting the landscape and allowing the zerg to mass everywhere.
These things make sc2 zerg feel very fast and bountiful in numbers which is what zerg should be for me.
However, recently play has been pretty bland because the zerg doesn't seem to have a flexibility in spell casters and unit variety like the other races.
Honestly? That OP post almost makes me angry =P. You thought the scourge was one of the most interesting units in SC1? I suppose I'll leave you to that opinion.. Banelings are like mass scourge on the ground that do splash damage and don't all explode into the same target. Infinitely better and infinitely more fun to watch. Plus you can burrow them and explode them like you would a stop lurker trap if you really miss lurkers. Changelings are a blast to watch every time. I recommend wr3k's stream, he uses them so often^^. Roaches can move while burrowed, Nydus worms are scary as hell. All in all I think sc2 zerg have really captured the feel of "overrun the guy with a swarm of units, and be sneaky and mean while doing it". They're anything but bland, you're just being one of those people who cries himself to sleep for hours when they change a tiny minute detail from sc1... well you get what I mean^^.
I think the infestor needs some work on the abilities. I don't know why consume, plague, and dark swarm were cut. You would think that Zerg's most infamous spells would survive or "mutate" into something different for sc2.
I like the idea of a fungal growth slowing units, and I liked an idea of acid spores in a previous build(?) that was mentioned on blizzcast 13 (you cast it on one unit and it spreads to the others through touch; really forces you to beware of clumping your units). Why not group the two together? A mutation of plague that slows/dmgs units, transmitted through units touching?
On February 27 2010 00:34 Feefee wrote: Banelings are like mass scourge on the ground that do splash damage and don't all explode into the same target.
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive.
The only biff I have with the Zerg is their graphics. Everything would be fine if they just changed this horrible buildings and most of the attack animations to something more suitable. Another thing would be getting rid of the Stalker and bringing the old Dragoon back (somehow, for me, Stalkers lack any "personality" while the goons were extremely characteristic and cool).
Part of me wishes they stayed true to a lot of the distinctive features of zerg (defilers and lurkers where pretty much the 2 units I thought of when I heard zerg). Another part realizes I can't expect no deviation from the original starcraft.
Zerg have definately lost their feel but hey, its a new game isnt it? The question is whether or not thats a good thing.
I find the older zerg kinda cooler to be honest. Changelings are meh, and you're right in saying that roaches are your generic ground unit that has medium range kinda thing. Otherwise its hard to make any judgement right now. Has the zerg lost "overrun your opponent with mass shit" feel? Play styles arent refined so its impossible to tell. Of course you have noobs like Feefee who barely play BW and think requesting that some elements stayed true to the original means that we cry oursevles to sleep "when they change a tiny detail from sc1". Stupid right? People who don't understand BW as much seem to think that any suggestion that SC1 is superior in some way means you're a blind fanboy. Hypocrisy at its best.
On February 27 2010 00:36 Skyze wrote: people always want to have something to bitch about. Honestly didnt bother reading the OP cause I know hes just pulling bullshit out of his ass..
ROACHES.. come on man.. nothing more needs to be said.
Then you obviously have nothing to contribute to this thread, so why bother entering? Honestly isn't shit like this bannable?
OP isn't complaining about how effective/ineffective the new Zerg units are (as most of the replies seem to assume). He's complaining about how they don't feel they've changed enough from SC1 unlike Protoss units.
zerg seems really boring atm. be it the lack of casters (infestor is the only real one), interresting units(lurker) or mechanics(muta micro) scrapped or the lack of strats avaible.
what are the games right now? mass roaches,then mass hydras(or muts vs p),then mass ultras(broods if going for air). more focus on zerglings, some spells and unit synergy in one way or the other is much needed.
The problem is that some four units in zerg were carried over with little if any change (zergling, hydra, muta, ultra). Compared to protoss which has two? (zealot, carrier). So of course there is more interesting stuff happening in that race.
Once the infestor starts seeing use (and it will due to this patch) that will help alleviate the sameness that plagues them. The queen as a caster is kind of a disappointment. Sure larvae is nice, but it has almost no offensive capabilities to speak of. I almost consider the queen a building rather than a unit. Zerg are, in my opinion, two units down from where they should be and that is what the problem is.
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive.
Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =(
On February 27 2010 00:51 onmach wrote: The problem is that some four units in zerg were carried over with little if any change (zergling, hydra, muta, ultra). Compared to protoss which has two? (zealot, carrier). So of course there is more interesting stuff happening in that race.
Z - 4 Zergling Hydralisk Mutalisk Ultralisk
P - 6 Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Carrier Archon Observer
Don't forget about the overlords, who can generate creep, which gives zerg units a bonus to movement speed. And they can morph into an overseer which can easily let you see your opponents army composition/give free scouting
And what about nydus worms? best sneak attack in the game
On February 27 2010 00:51 onmach wrote: The problem is that some four units in zerg were carried over with little if any change (zergling, hydra, muta, ultra). Compared to protoss which has two? (zealot, carrier). So of course there is more interesting stuff happening in that race.
Z - 4 Zergling Hydralisk Mutalisk Ultralisk
P - 5 Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Carrier Archon
On February 27 2010 00:47 haley wrote: OP isn't complaining about how effective/ineffective the new Zerg units are (as most of the replies seem to assume). He's complaining about how they don't feel they've changed enough from SC1 unlike Protoss units.
Agreed, and I agree with OP. Zerg is boring. The new macro mechanics are interesting but other than that they have nothing interesting that wasn't in sc1. As for all the Roach fans--it's only one decent unit when the other races are totally unrecognizable (mostly in a good way) Whatever though. The important people are the ones posting to blizzard not us
Ok, I guess I forgot a few units, shows that I don't play protoss. I guess I don't know what is wrong with zerg then. I know there is a problem, but I don't know what to do about it.
On February 27 2010 00:36 Skyze wrote: people always want to have something to bitch about. Honestly didnt bother reading the OP cause I know hes just pulling bullshit out of his ass..
ROACHES.. come on man.. nothing more needs to be said.
Maybe you should read the op. He has a decent opinion. Better than "ROACHES"
Anyway I think from a roster of units it is definitely kind of disappointing but from a gameplay standpoint Zerg is still very interesting. The fast switching between economy and unit production is WAY more pronounced than in Starcraft but perhaps feels like nuance is slightly less possible(Good Zerg players often squeeze out an extra drone or two when they feel at ease or they can cement a lead).. In SC2 to get the same effect you kind of need to just pump out a lot of drones at once since you really are not going to be playing off more than 3 bases too often(Nor is there really a positive bonus to going far beyond that).
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive.
Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =(
Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol
On February 27 2010 00:51 onmach wrote: The problem is that some four units in zerg were carried over with little if any change (zergling, hydra, muta, ultra). Compared to protoss which has two? (zealot, carrier). So of course there is more interesting stuff happening in that race.
Z - 4 Zergling Hydralisk Mutalisk Ultralisk
P - 6 Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Carrier Archon Observer
I feel lost with mid-game Z. Something is missing there.
You get hydras, mutas, and infestor. Mutas can't stack too well yet and gas costs alot more to mine so so far I haven't been able to make timing mutas such as in SCBW 3 hatch muta to gain that much map control.
Hydras I feel are quite strong. However, they die too hard to storm and tanks (omg tanks so strong now). Infestor let's see what the new patch does.
Something threatening and powerful needs to be included in mid-game zerg i think. Lurkers were great for this, however they did make zerg alot more defensive in BW.
i always disliked roaches ever since I heard the name, it didn't sound zerglike at all.
If I had my way, i'd scrap their attack and change it to some kind of 10 second cooldown ability like charge for zeals, where they could shoot a line/wave of damage that does small splash. (similar to lurkers). Also roach is stupid name and thing in real life, would be better if they were called locust or something that can actually damage shit. then you could call the attack locust swarm or whatever.
On February 27 2010 00:51 onmach wrote: The problem is that some four units in zerg were carried over with little if any change (zergling, hydra, muta, ultra). Compared to protoss which has two? (zealot, carrier). So of course there is more interesting stuff happening in that race.
Z - 4 Zergling Hydralisk Mutalisk Ultralisk
P - 6 Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Carrier Archon Observer
On February 27 2010 00:20 HowardRoark wrote: This post is not about balance or about the hard counter nature of SC2 (which I am not sure I like at all), but about the units of Zerg.
To sum up the Zerg of SC2: They removed two of the most interesting units of the Zerg, Lurker and Scourge (which had a distinct feel and that was very unique to Zerg), and added the anonymous Roach, which is like a Hydra without air attack, and the Baneling. They cut the wings of the Queen and made her useful. They kept the Mutalisk, and changed the name and looks of the Devourer, that still however can evolve into the Guardian-like Brood Lord. They kept the Ultralisk, but renamed the Defiler to Infestor and downgraded its abilities.
For every change Blizzard did to the SC2 Zerg compared to the SC1 Zerg, the only one I find interesting was to cut the wings of the Scourge into Baneling.
I do think that SC2 needs new units and abilities, but compared to the SC2 Protoss which is very interesting, the SC2 Zerg units feels like an alpha build of SC1 (with flashy graphics indeed). The new unit composition of Zerg does not enhance the uniqueness of Zerg, rather diminishing it.
The SC2 Protoss however, while keeping most of the interesting units from SC1, added a lot of new interesting ones: the Collossi, the Immortal and the Stalker (instead of the Dragoon), the Mothership, the Sentry, the Void Ray, Warp Prism and added a lot of interesting fresh features to these units.
Also, certain parts of the Terran is IMHO rather bland ATM compared to the colorful SC1 "tripple entente" of the M&M+Firebat. SC2 Terran feels like you have 4 sizes of Marine, first the standard Marine, then the bigger Marauder, FlyingMarine Reaper and finally the MegaMarine Thor. However though, not as "uninteresting" as the current build of Zerg.
To sum it up: Protoss got a very interesting overhaul with a great mix of new and old units and abilities, but I do not feel Zerg got the same quality treatment from Blizzard. Sure, I can just play Protoss and care little about Zerg but in the long run I guess it will be rather boring only playing lots of PvP matches.
One ingredient why SC1 is such a great game is that every race was so geniously well crafted; and I wish Blizzard would treat the Zerg as they did treat the new Protoss. SC2 is not SC1, so new and fresh units is a must, aslong as they are interesting and provide uniqueness to each race. Removing the Lurker and adding the anon. Roach just because Blizzard feel they need to alter the unit composition of Zerg is not the right way to go.
What do you think of SC2 style Zerg?
I think you are being far too harsh... Zerg looks like a heavily expansion/horde themed race, and at the moment no one knows how to early expand safely. Roaches and hydras do kind of overlap (basic ranged attack unit), but I think that this is solvable (hydras had to be nerfed from the alpha when all-in hydra just beat everything) - strengthening hydra AA and making the roach more burrow friendly (since there are no lurkers anymore) should alleviate any concerns. The main problem is that Zerg and Terran casters are too weak. The sentry for Protoss is more useful than any unit other than zealots in the P arsenal.
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive.
Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =(
Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol
What does scourge micro have to do with the question of if banelings overkill a target? I'm aware that you can micro scourge to lessen the blow of bad AI, I'm asking if banelings have similarly bad AI. And I've certainly played and watched enough BW to be able to voice my opinion on if zerg "feels disappointing now". They do not in my eyes.
Surely the queen's heal and corruptor's ability to lock down buildings are two pretty underused abilities right now? Both seem like they could spice up offensive play a little and move things away from massing units and wondering why the race feels so boring. Even the infestor's newly tweaked neural parasite must be of some use no? I mean a colossus entering a fight can change the entire outcome so being able to steal ownership of it for even a few seconds could prove vital on occasion.
On February 27 2010 01:02 Piousflea wrote: I hate how terrans now have Dark Swarm (point defense drone) and zergs don't. Even toss get their anti-ranged defense with sentry shield.
Yes, this ability was a trademark for Zerg. I feel if something ought to stay with Zerg, it would be their anti-range support spell and their melee over-running.
On February 27 2010 01:13 CharlieMurphy wrote: i always disliked roaches ever since I heard the name, it didn't sound zerglike at all.
If I had my way, i'd scrap their attack and change it to some kind of 10 second cooldown ability like charge for zeals, where they could shoot a line/wave of damage that does small splash. (similar to lurkers). Also roach is stupid name and thing in real life, would be better if they were called locust or something that can actually damage shit. then you could call the attack locust swarm or whatever.
That is a good idea. If the Roach stay in the game, it needs something more than being just a ground only Hydra-clone. Especially since anti-ranged defence is given to T and P, and the Lurker "cloaked" splash is gone.
Also roach is stupid name and thing in real life, would be better if they were called locust or something that can actually damage shit. then you could call the attack locust swarm or whatever.
On February 27 2010 00:53 lolaloc wrote: Z - 4 Zergling Hydralisk Mutalisk Ultralisk
P - 6 Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Carrier Archon Observer
Those four Zerg units see a lot of use though.
Protoss has Sentry, Colossus, Stalker, Immortal, Void Ray that all get used a lot, and then Phoenix and Mothership as well.
Zerg has Roaches, Banelings and...? Corruptors I guess but their 'hook' isn't very interesting compared to other new units. Brood Lords might just as well be Guardians, the fact that they shoot Broodlings seems to be cosmetic. The Infestor doesn't seem nearly as useful as the Defiler
The Queen is cool but it's not a combat unit. So, Protoss has 5 new combat units that people have taken to while the Zerg pretty much has two while most of their combat units are the same from the last game.
Now, I don't see how you'd remove Mutalisks, Hydralisks, Ultralisks or Zerglings from the Zerg but I don't think the Infestor, Brood Lord and Corruptor are very interesting units compared to the other new units in the game. Roaches and Banelings are cool though!
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive.
Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =(
Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol
What does scourge micro have to do with the question of if banelings overkill a target? I'm aware that you can micro scourge to lessen the blow of bad AI, I'm asking if banelings have similarly bad AI. And I've certainly played and watched enough BW to be able to voice my opinion on if zerg "feels disappointing now". They do not in my eyes.
The point im making is if u dont know something as basic as that you obviously don't play sc enough to have an appreciation for it. Yes 3v5 comp stomps and watching some pro games are fun but not enough for you to claim you adequately know the game. Hence, you think that any time we request something to be made similar to SC1 we're blind fanboys. Again, go read my post on page 1
I really think Blizzard did a great job Unit-wise and Macro-wise with the Terrans. The Units are versatile, not just counter-Units, allow decent amount of Micro etc.
For the Macro-Part, Blizzard did a decent job an all the races. They implemented Multiple Building selection and Auto-Mining and because the SC-Fans raged with phrases like "SC2 will have no Macro", Blizzard implemented some nice mechanics to keep the player busy macroing in his base.
We've never worried about the Micro-Aspect and the quality of the Units (with quality of Units I mean: It's a versatile Unit and not just a counter to sth, it makes interesting Micro possible and encourages it, it synergizes well with other Units etc. Stuff like Hellion, Reaper, Marauder are excellent Examples)
Now@Topic: The new Zerg-Units and some essentiel Changes on the old one make me think that Blizzard didn't do a good Job creating the Zerg-race in SC2, mostly because of some very uninteresting and unnecessary Units:
Roaches: Roaches are unnecessary, unversatile, don't allow interesting Micro and are simply a massable counterunit (not as much a counter-unit like for example the Immortal, but still: Roaches are just good against certain types of Units.) Why make the Hydras Tier2 and Roaches in Tier1? Noone needs the Roaches... In fact, I've hated them since the first time they've been mentioned, because of the above reasons, without ever having seen them "in Action".
Hydralisks: Hydras and Roaches are too similar, so get hydras back to Tier1 and cut the roaches or change the Hydras somehow...
Mutalisks: I've read several times even months/years ago, that Blizzard wanted to make good mutastacking/Mutamicro in SC2 possible - they said their working on "breaking" the enginge, so that it works like in SC1, but it clearly does not. This Aspect makes Mutas much less micro-intensiv, much less fun to watch or to play with und much less effective. Thats why mutas are so good right now: Blizzard had to make Mutas unproportionally strong concerning HP and DMG, because they're just not even near as versatile, deadly in the right hands without proper Mutamicro being possible in SC2. I don't know how other Zerg-Fans feel about that, but when I see the Mutas in SC2, all spread out in an Arc, focusing a Unit with just the half-dead Mutas being retreated, it nearly breaks my heart. And the Mutas are just one of the Units that are much less Micro-intensiv, it's basically true for all the Air-Units... No more Scourges, no Wraith-stacking, no Corsairs with AoE so you had to spread your mutas out etc.
General Engine-Problems: With way better Pathfinding and surrounding, so many of the Units are way easier to control. I don't say thats a bad thing if you just wanna play a simple game, but SC1 isn't being played for over 10 years now on an extremely high professional level, because controlling the Units was easy. Okay; back when Blizzard made SC1, they basically didn't have a clue that later on, ppl would discover stuff like mutamicro and it kinda happened by mistake because of how the game was programmed then and that there were these little glitches, which enriched the game so much.
I don't want Blizzard to get rid of the new and better enginge, but like with the Macro, Blizzard has to come up with stuff that makes up for the lack of required micro because of better pathfinding and surrounding etc. It's very important for me that everyone who reads this understands, that for me, it's not a balancing-issue at all: The problem isn't solved by just making the lings have less HP, because surrounding is easier, or making the Mutas have more HP/do more DMG, because stacking and proper Mutamicro isn't possible anymore, it's about finding a way to give the player an opportunity to spend they're time with the Unit.
SC1 is such a great game, because no matter how fast you are, you can never do everything perfect in the game. You allways have to decide whether to build stuff in base, micro a certain Unit, harrass with another Unit, scout etc. Now I don't say that SC2 can't be played on a very high level, but the possibilities on how you want to play the game and where you want to spend the most important ressource in high-level-SC1, namely your attention, is way more limited than in SC2.
I think Tasteless or Artosis (I'm not sure though... it was a famous SC1-Personality though) mentioned those different playstyles once in a cast or article or sth. and said that this Aspect is so crucial in SC1. I don't think it was in the context of SC2 and it was a while ago, but it totally is appropriate to think about when comparing SC2 to SC1 and why I think that SC2 doesn't just need balancing, but a complete overhaul of certain Units and Aspects of the Engine.
Don't get me wrong, SC2 looks great and I really wanna play it, but those things mentioned above, are just Aspects of SC1, which helped SC1 to do the leap from "extremely good RTS" to "THE BEST FREAKING RTS IN THE WORLD!". If SC2 more or less stays the same as now, I'm sure SC1 will stay the most popular game in Korea and the best RTS ever made. In Progaming, it's not about graphics - we see what happened with WC3 in Korea: It had better graphics than SC, it had the "Blizzard-Logo", it was new and had interesting mechanics and stuff, but in the End, it wasn't as fun to watch, it wasn't as challenging/demanding for the player and there wasn't much room for different playstiles; all of those things are also true if you compare SC1 with SC2!
But as mentioned in teh Beginning: We see Blizzard can make new Units that are IMHO very good and versatile, but why implement stuff like Collossus, VoidRay, Immortal, Roaches that are just slow, boring, massable counterunits that don't leave much micro-possibilities. Those Units lead to the Way SC2 is being played right now: Totally focused on Unit-Composition, where you pretty much send 2 Armies with A-Move to your opponents Army and the one who has the right Amount of Counter and Counter-Counter Units, wins.... -.-°
My only problem with the zerg is the infestor. This unit doesnt even come close to the defiler in awesomeness. The protoss get 3 good casters(sentry, ht, ms) and the terrans get 2 good casters(ghost and raven), but the zerg are stuck with one terrible caster. I really think blizz needs to work on the infestor and think of another cool caster for tier 3.
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive.
Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =(
Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol
What does scourge micro have to do with the question of if banelings overkill a target? I'm aware that you can micro scourge to lessen the blow of bad AI, I'm asking if banelings have similarly bad AI. And I've certainly played and watched enough BW to be able to voice my opinion on if zerg "feels disappointing now". They do not in my eyes.
The point im making is if u dont know something as basic as that you obviously don't play sc enough to have an appreciation for it. Yes 3v5 comp stomps and watching some pro games are fun but not enough for you to claim you adequately know the game. Hence, you think that any time we request something to be made similar to SC1 we're blind fanboys. Again, go read my post on page 1
Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? Please quote the part in which he shows that he doesn't know something as basic as scourge micro.
The Lurker was probably removed because at hive tech it was competing with the much more mobile Ultralisk and Brood Lord with less hitpoints and damage output.
Infestors can now apply Neural Parasite on any unit for 10 seconds. That's pretty good in my opinion. I think the deal with the Roach was that Zerg didn't have any units that were good against units at the same tier, so it was buffed. As a result, you see people mass these units in the early-game as a transition into hydralisks.
On February 27 2010 02:55 LunarC wrote: The Lurker was probably removed because at hive tech it was competing with the much more mobile Ultralisk and Brood Lord with less hitpoints and damage output.
Infestors can now apply Neural Parasite on any unit for 10 seconds. That's pretty good in my opinion. I think the deal with the Roach was that Zerg didn't have any units that were good against units at the same tier, so it was buffed. As a result, you see people mass these units in the early-game as a transition into hydralisks.
Also, enough with the ad hominem arguments.
I think you've nailed the argument for roach implementation here spot on, simply because as you said Zerg had nothing tier one that could compete with Terran and Protoss, I mean yeah Hydra were strong Tier 1 but zealots and a few goons destroyed them, same with M&M's now they've been put tier two more so to basically act as AA as much as ground, I feel roaches are there so zerg don't get steam rolled, I've seen over the years so many Zerg lose to 2gate zealot all ins because you could get a few hydra off and some zerglings but more often than not overrun, Roaches are a hard counter to marines and Zealot, which is why they're there. Back on topic, I feel Zerg now are more versatile, in such you don't need 6000 units now to be able to play offensively vs terran and toss, I like how the game is going though myself hard counters make the game more cut throat, and although detracts slightly from micro, did anybody really enjoy mass goon with +1 weapon grades rolling people for example? I think the way blizz are going about Sc2 is spot on, I also being a Z player myself mind you think Muta stacking not so well is good, being able to stack maybe 24 muta on top of each other is ridiculous it takes skill to micro it yes, but is it fair on the other races trying to defend it? probably not.
Hi this is my first post and english is not my main lenguaje, so sorry about that. The thing that nobody comment here is the creep mechanic, come on do you really like the creep tumors thing? a little ugly thing? seriusly colony--->sunken/spore was so much better method of creating creep. Now the zerg bases looks so empty in my opinion
Also they removed 3 units: scourge defiler and lurker, with were the most demanding micromanage units in BroodWar, and now we have roachers corruptors and infestors (2 non creative units A+click, and useless caster)
watch lurker defiler and a good scourge management in BW was spectacular(And the dark swarm, consume, plague were so fucking creative). now is just mass X units and a+click.. seriusly guys i don't understand how you can like the actual zerg.
I think they were too obsessed with the implementation of roach and infestor, even in the first blizzcast you can read about an unit who regenerates fast (and it's clear the concept simply doesn't work anymore) but they try and try and try to implement them in the game, and roach doesn't bring new mechanics or cool gameplay, just mass them and you will win. Simply BORING, lurker was so much better in all aspects.
something similar happened with thor (even some of blizzard crew don't like them at all) but devs are obsessed with the implementation of thors
and the infestor unit is a little sad, just look at their last spell, the infested marine thing.. it's like they have no creativity at all.
This is a good point. I'm really gonna miss the lurker but on the other hand the baneling is awesome! I agree with the others about the roach, it's just uninteresting in every way possible..
Zerg is definitely getting the short end of the stick here in terms of cool factor. Roaches are rather bland, Infestor's spells are just boring/bad for Zerg's ONLY caster, and air units are also unoriginal, we lose the scourge and gain broodling spawns on a renamed Guardian. Corruptor / Devourer are not very far apart.
Let's not even get into unit/attack sounds again which are particularly disappointing for zerg.
MEH @ SC2 ZERG.
What will SC be without Zerg's cool factor? Tragedy is what.
EDIT: Losing Scourge, Defiler, and Lurker for Baneling, Infestor and Roach is pretty garbage. The Baneling is the only really interesting/good "replacement". Roach and Infestor are just terrible trade-offs for Lurker/Defiler. And that's an understatement.
Im playing Terran instead of Zerg cause I find Zerg boring atm =( Roach/Hydra army feels like a Protoss army. I want a Zerg army with the same finesse it had in SC.
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive.
Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =(
Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol
What does scourge micro have to do with the question of if banelings overkill a target? I'm aware that you can micro scourge to lessen the blow of bad AI, I'm asking if banelings have similarly bad AI. And I've certainly played and watched enough BW to be able to voice my opinion on if zerg "feels disappointing now". They do not in my eyes.
The point im making is if u dont know something as basic as that you obviously don't play sc enough to have an appreciation for it. Yes 3v5 comp stomps and watching some pro games are fun but not enough for you to claim you adequately know the game. Hence, you think that any time we request something to be made similar to SC1 we're blind fanboys. Again, go read my post on page 1
Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? Please quote the part in which he shows that he doesn't know something as basic as scourge micro.
The part where he says scourge suck because they all blow up on 1 target while banelings (or w/e those exploding units are called) do not.
I completely agree that zerg is just boring now... Yes I can win with roaches or muta all-ins, but it's so uniteresting to do it, mass a unit or 2, hope you arn't countered, possibly tech switch and mass a new unit, end game.
Infestor needs some major love, even past this current patch. neural parasite being channeled just means that with it's short range, that you sac an infestor for 1-2 shots from a colossus or 1 storm.
the very fact we'll be willing to sacrifice a unit, just to get to use the protoss units for a few seconds is just funny/sad.
Roaches: I think they need to nerf the roach's damage, give it bonus damage to light, like before, and increase it's survivability again. Roaches I actually don't mind as a concept, they are a very hard to kill unit, that when microed decently should take some effort to kill. The problem is that blizzard is trying to make them a hard counter to tier 1 light, and buffed their damage too much. proposed stats: 125 hp 2 base armour 8 damage +6 vs light remove speed upg and make their base speed like it is upged instead an upg that gives +50hp and 2 armour at lair
Zergling: with the nerf to hatch level roach zergling needs to be given a slight buff to help zerg counter other tier 1. They origionally increased the size of a zergling to reduce it's damage, I think a small size reduction would thusly help immensly, especially vs zealots. Speed upgrade buffed to be 30% faster instead of the 20% or so it is now. Even with these 2 changes it should be enough to make the zergling able to counter other tier1 enough for zerg to live through Tier1, as well as making the zergling stay more feasible later in the game.
Infestor: give us our goddamned dark swarm or consume, or plague back... In SC1 there were 3 spells that were used exclusively by zerg, all 3 of which were iconic to the race. It has been shown definitively that they are not against having spells taken from the origional and putting them into SC2, take protoss as a prime example: psi storm hallucination stasis and recall are all in the game in some form, and being used to decent effect too. Something major needs to be done for the infestor to be used as more then a novelty piece. First step: increase the range on it's casting, even make this an upgrade if you need to. Second step: give it some form of energy gain, with the way zerg work, where units are fragile, but in high supply (that has translated fairly well into SC2) waiting for energy to regen, really isn't an option. either a direct consume translation, being able to drain enemy caster energy while remaining burrowed, or even the siphon life if it had a longer range. If we made siphon life have 8 range, cost 0 energy and drain 4 life per second, giving 2 per second to the infestor channeled, unusable on buildings, would this really cause a big upset? It would allow for a 4 tiered zerg army, melee - roaches - hydras - infestors. Another concept would be to have the infested terrans that are spawned be more interesting then the couple seconds of shoot and die they are now, making them blow up would of course be the logical solution, but since they made the baneling it would be a bit of an overlap, maybe make them explode if they die of their timer, making the enemy really want to focus them down before they go off, as well as making micro oppertunities to get them in position for when they run out of time.
Overseer: Give the overseer another spell, I don't even know what it should be, just something non-combat situational that it can throw around making them more then expensive non-cloaked observers.
lurker: bring it back in some form! preferably at lair tech, maybe mutated from roach instead of hydra?
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive.
Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =(
Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol
What does scourge micro have to do with the question of if banelings overkill a target? I'm aware that you can micro scourge to lessen the blow of bad AI, I'm asking if banelings have similarly bad AI. And I've certainly played and watched enough BW to be able to voice my opinion on if zerg "feels disappointing now". They do not in my eyes.
The point im making is if u dont know something as basic as that you obviously don't play sc enough to have an appreciation for it. Yes 3v5 comp stomps and watching some pro games are fun but not enough for you to claim you adequately know the game. Hence, you think that any time we request something to be made similar to SC1 we're blind fanboys. Again, go read my post on page 1
Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? Please quote the part in which he shows that he doesn't know something as basic as scourge micro.
The part where he says scourge suck because they all blow up on 1 target while banelings (or w/e those exploding units are called) do not.
That part doesn't fucking exist. You've made me read through that god damn line of quotes 4 times already.
On February 27 2010 04:16 Shiladie wrote: Overseer: Give the overseer another spell, I don't even know what it should be, just something non-combat situational that it can throw around making them more then expensive non-cloaked observers.
This is actually a good idea. Make the overseer a spellcaster unit (such as a science vessel) by adding another meaningful spell in there.
I really like the above idea of the roach mutating into some form of lurker.
Blizz has said that they're discounting the first few weeks of gaming for balance as people learn the game. Maybe Z will seem less disappointing as they're relearned?
. I don't think there is any problem with the Zerg at all except maybe 1-2 units needing a buff and those are the spell castor's (i need my swarm cover )...
The Zerg are a lot more interesting to me now then with SC1...There are a lot of new mechanics that I love, one of those being how the new queen works...Roaches are awesome, they are probably "the" bread and butter of the zerg..In combination with some ling/bane/hydra you are gonna be made of win...Its more important now to have good unit combinations then it was in SC1...
Sure there are a few areas that could be improved(spell castor's) but it's not a really huge issue at the moment...We are still all trying out a lot of different things to actually start brining out flaws in certain match ups or units...
Either way, its too early to tell how the balance is going to work out because we are only at the tip of the mountain with different tactics/combos...
But I will say this, am probably not the only one, that finds a lot of lac in micro, I think this is one of my biggest complaints with the new SC.
I think zerg needs some kind of "fun" unit for lair tech. With infestor being crappy, casters aren't viable. Back in BW the lurker was a really fun unit to use, as if you used it properly it could do devastating damage. I also think roach is more lair tech. Swap places for hydra and roach, give us some unit thats hard to use, but can give amazing results if used correctly.
Also consume is very much needed. It felt so "zergish"
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive.
Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =(
Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol
What does scourge micro have to do with the question of if banelings overkill a target? I'm aware that you can micro scourge to lessen the blow of bad AI, I'm asking if banelings have similarly bad AI. And I've certainly played and watched enough BW to be able to voice my opinion on if zerg "feels disappointing now". They do not in my eyes.
The point im making is if u dont know something as basic as that you obviously don't play sc enough to have an appreciation for it. Yes 3v5 comp stomps and watching some pro games are fun but not enough for you to claim you adequately know the game. Hence, you think that any time we request something to be made similar to SC1 we're blind fanboys. Again, go read my post on page 1
Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? Please quote the part in which he shows that he doesn't know something as basic as scourge micro.
The part where he says scourge suck because they all blow up on 1 target while banelings (or w/e those exploding units are called) do not.
That part doesn't fucking exist. You've made me read through that god damn line of quotes 4 times already.
On February 27 2010 00:34 Feefee wrote: Honestly? That OP post almost makes me angry =P. You thought the scourge was one of the most interesting units in SC1? I suppose I'll leave you to that opinion.. Banelings are like mass scourge on the ground that do splash damage and don't all explode into the same target. Infinitely better and infinitely more fun to watch. Plus you can burrow them and explode them like you would a stop lurker trap if you really miss lurkers. Changelings are a blast to watch every time. I recommend wr3k's stream, he uses them so often^^. Roaches can move while burrowed, Nydus worms are scary as hell. All in all I think sc2 zerg have really captured the feel of "overrun the guy with a swarm of units, and be sneaky and mean while doing it". They're anything but bland, you're just being one of those people who cries himself to sleep for hours when they change a tiny minute detail from sc1... well you get what I mean^^.
Happy? The fact that you even bothered that much is funny. Either way this is a useless argument.
To contribute to the thread, I think balance issues might be the main problem with swarm, especially ZvT. In Sc1 irradiate gave terran the ability to kill all defilers on site, which balanced it. Obviously this isn't an option.
Also the main units for Z are ranged now (Roach / Muta / Hydra). With the absense of lurkers swarm just doesnt feel as integrated into zerg strategy
On February 27 2010 04:56 lgd-haze wrote: I think zerg needs some kind of "fun" unit for lair tech. With infestor being crappy, casters aren't viable. Back in BW the lurker was a really fun unit to use, as if you used it properly it could do devastating damage. I also think roach is more lair tech. Swap places for hydra and roach, give us some unit thats hard to use, but can give amazing results if used correctly.
Also consume is very much needed. It felt so "zergish"
i think this applies to protoss as well: No real fun2play/watch, microintensiv unit on midtier....
my solution would be (for Z) to bring back proper Mutamicro. For P, you had to basically implement a totally new unit or bring us back the reaver.
Hydra is not an interesting unit, shoots air ground, slow, good range. What more can you say about it?
Muta, brood lord, corrupter - meh dont like the feel of them
Ultra - nothing special.
queen +
overlord + many interesting improvements.
banelings = awesome
infestor interesting again when it now can control ALL UNITS! Includes colossus I hope!? dies easily channeling like that. But who cares 2 infested colossus just getting 2 shots of at their own army is priceless. I love this change.
A mixed impression. As I feel for terran as well. Some nice other meh.
Protoss definitely got the love. Many cool abilities and special features on almost all units. Phoenix feels a bit boring but it has the gravity thing to make up for it. But protoss are high tech it suits them. Zerg should be the swarmy ones something I do feel we got fairly nicely. And terran well human never liked them not in SC1, BW or SC2 =)
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive.
Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =(
Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol
What does scourge micro have to do with the question of if banelings overkill a target? I'm aware that you can micro scourge to lessen the blow of bad AI, I'm asking if banelings have similarly bad AI. And I've certainly played and watched enough BW to be able to voice my opinion on if zerg "feels disappointing now". They do not in my eyes.
The point im making is if u dont know something as basic as that you obviously don't play sc enough to have an appreciation for it. Yes 3v5 comp stomps and watching some pro games are fun but not enough for you to claim you adequately know the game. Hence, you think that any time we request something to be made similar to SC1 we're blind fanboys. Again, go read my post on page 1
Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? Please quote the part in which he shows that he doesn't know something as basic as scourge micro.
The part where he says scourge suck because they all blow up on 1 target while banelings (or w/e those exploding units are called) do not.
That part doesn't fucking exist. You've made me read through that god damn line of quotes 4 times already.
On February 27 2010 00:34 Feefee wrote: Honestly? That OP post almost makes me angry =P. You thought the scourge was one of the most interesting units in SC1? I suppose I'll leave you to that opinion.. Banelings are like mass scourge on the ground that do splash damage and don't all explode into the same target. Infinitely better and infinitely more fun to watch. Plus you can burrow them and explode them like you would a stop lurker trap if you really miss lurkers. Changelings are a blast to watch every time. I recommend wr3k's stream, he uses them so often^^. Roaches can move while burrowed, Nydus worms are scary as hell. All in all I think sc2 zerg have really captured the feel of "overrun the guy with a swarm of units, and be sneaky and mean while doing it". They're anything but bland, you're just being one of those people who cries himself to sleep for hours when they change a tiny minute detail from sc1... well you get what I mean^^.
Happy? The fact that you even bothered that much is funny
I'm happy. Next time quote what you're talking about. Go laugh.
I Need Swarm. I do really like banelings and the faster speed on creep combined with ovies dropping it make for some interesting stuff. As does nydus xD. Less important is that i hate the sound a zerglings attack sounds. I dont really know why. Its like a mushy sound that doesnt remind me of the attack speed and power they had in broodwar. Say im not accepting but i want my bw zerglings back.
I do find the new zerg rather still very straight forward but i would like it to be changed to what ionno. I stopped playing zerg when i hit plat now i'm back down to gold lulz playing as terran working out builds like i did for zerg working my way to getting random.
1. Still in beta, yatta yatta yatta. 2. SC2 Will have 2 confirmed expansions, remember BW is a finished game with one expansion.(The lurker you mentioned was not in the original game). By the time we play and play, new units come out with new expansions in 2-3 years, it willbe polished enough. I assure you that.
Scourge was an awful unit. It was a can't-do-much-with-it-but-won't-let-you-do-much-with-your-fliers-either unit. This game should be about possibilities not about denying them.
Let's take a moment to think about why Zerg seems so boring. People seem to pin it on the roach and infestor at the moment, because one is easy to mass and the other has abilities with very limited use.
I think the source of zerg "boringness" lies so much deeper than that.
Before anything else, it's beta and people may not have found an optimal unit mix that works well. Hence, people simply tend to mass units, tech up, and mass other units. However, pinning this tendency to simply mass units on the fact that it's beta means that we are overlooking the possibility that perhaps massing the right units actually is the optimal way to play Starcraft 2.
To a certain extent this is true for Starcraft 1 as well, but there is a fundamental difference in how this massing of units is complemented with high-risk high-damage units. Starcraft 2 instead features a much more simplistic form of counters in the form of bonus damage than Starcraft 1 did. Take the lurker for example. Its strength was "hard counter"-like but there were severe limitations on how it attacked. Why did lurkers in Starcraft 1 become a popular unit? This is because it was very effective against the massed unit style of m&m and dealt with zealots very well. Why was it such an exciting unit? The lurker was unable to easily get into position to deal large amounts of damage because of its low hp and inability to attack while above ground. This created a need for Zerglings to act as a shield while lurkers moved into place.
It wasn't the thrill of watching swarms of units smash into the opposition that made Zerg exciting. It was the very sharp tension caused by the possibility of dealing large amounts of damage combined with the possibility of losing too many expensive units that made battles exciting. It was the significance of the micro that made this battle exciting. This is why scourge were exciting, this is why mutalisk clumps were exciting, and this is why defilers were exciting. They generated tension.
So why is the roach not exciting? The roach is not exciting for three interdependent reasons:
1. It's very durable. 2. It's very cheap. 3. It deals a decent amount of damage.
By themselves, each of the above three features would make good single units. The problem is that all three of these characteristics are present in the same unit. Durability and low cost makes it low-risk. Decent amounts of damage makes it useful on its own with little need for supporting units. It simply takes too much of a middle ground to make it exciting in any way. If they had only 80 hitpoints but moved faster without the need for an upgrade, they would become much more exciting to watch as strategic burrowing and unburrowing takes place and Zerglings rush in from the sides as Roaches would be decimated without Ling support.
Banelings are not very exciting either for similar reasons. It is cheap and it deals only a decent amount of damage. The point is to generate tension with this kind of unit, meaning that this unit should possess the potential to be devastating while being difficult to use.
A. Higher gas cost would make it a greater economic investment. B. Friendly splash damage would make it a greater micro investment. C. Lower hitpoints + friendly splash would make it only useful as support. D. Higher damage will give greater returns and combined with the above, create greater tension.
This is what I think of these Zerg units, though I believe the Ultralisk and Immortal suffer from being too strong in relatively small numbers to be "tanks" and the Collossus is too unwieldy to micro. It's similar to the shuttle/reaver in terms of resource and time cost, but in terms of micro cost it's barely there. Again, there is not much tension. A shuttle could barely escape in the red with the reaver, but if a Collossus is caught alone, it stands no chance. Maybe Blizzard intends on balancing units to cause evenly distributed groups of staple and counter units to create exciting but even battles, and that micro will be useful no matter what and so does not need to be a very major factor. On the contrary, exciting battles are the result of tension caused by the fact that a single slip in unit control on either side could result in massive losses.
Banelings are not very exciting either for similar reasons. It is cheap and it deals only a decent amount of damage. The point is to generate tension with this kind of unit, meaning that this unit should possess the potential to be devastating while being difficult to use.
A. Higher gas cost would make it a greater economic investment. B. Friendly splash damage would make it a greater micro investment. C. Lower hitpoints + friendly splash would make it only useful as support. D. Higher damage will give greater returns and combined with the above, create greater tension.
This is what I think of these Zerg units, though I believe the Ultralisk and Immortal suffer from being too strong in relatively small numbers to be "tanks" and the Collossus is too unwieldy to micro. It's similar to the shuttle/reaver in terms of resource and time cost, but in terms of micro cost it's barely there. Again, there is not much tension. A shuttle could barely escape in the red with the reaver, but if a Collossus is caught alone, it stands no chance. Maybe Blizzard thinks that balancing units to cause evenly distributed groups of staple and counter units will result in exciting but even battles, and that micro will be useful no matter what and so does not need to be encouraged directly. On the contrary, exciting battles are the result of tension caused by the fact that a single slip in unit control on either side could result in massive losses.
I agree. Zerg scarabs would make for some exciting moments.
Partially the "blandness" people are talking about is the lack of offensive spellcasting currently, but we'll see how the new patch affects that.
On February 27 2010 05:54 LuDwig- wrote: another sc1 nostalgic 3d
Before dismissing me as a Starcraft 1 nostalgic, read into my post a bit. I'm not saying that Starcraft 2 should be like a 3D Starcraft: Brood War. I'm simply using units in Brood War as examples of units that made battles more exciting. I don't know about you, but I like to watch exciting battles.
I agree with the OP. Zerg seem powerful enough and at least as fun as the original, but compared to the other races SC2 doesn't bring us as many many cool new toys. I'd like to get some units like the colossus, void ray, thor, or banshee, that have a totally different feel from anything we had in SC1.
I've said it in every other thread, might as well add it to this one. I HATE THE ROACH!
other than that, Zerg is pretty nice... if it were up to me, make the hydra T1.5 again, and remove the roach (maybe give some of the roach abilities to the hydra, that'd be interesting) and then you have this wide window at Tier 2 (where hydra currently is) to get really creative and bring something new to the table for zerg.
We don't need a Hydralisk with down syndrome wearing a suit of armor, just so we can have the not retarded hydra at tier 2
On February 27 2010 01:02 Piousflea wrote: I hate how terrans now have Dark Swarm (point defense drone) and zergs don't. Even toss get their anti-ranged defense with sentry shield.
Yes, this ability was a trademark for Zerg. I feel if something ought to stay with Zerg, it would be their anti-range support spell and their melee over-running.
On February 27 2010 01:13 CharlieMurphy wrote: i always disliked roaches ever since I heard the name, it didn't sound zerglike at all.
If I had my way, i'd scrap their attack and change it to some kind of 10 second cooldown ability like charge for zeals, where they could shoot a line/wave of damage that does small splash. (similar to lurkers). Also roach is stupid name and thing in real life, would be better if they were called locust or something that can actually damage shit. then you could call the attack locust swarm or whatever.
That is a good idea. If the Roach stay in the game, it needs something more than being just a ground only Hydra-clone. Especially since anti-ranged defence is given to T and P, and the Lurker "cloaked" splash is gone.
i mean especially since most people once they hit lair will be getting speed/burrow moving and attack then burrow anyways. the cooldown single powerful shot would work better.
and you can still do things like lurker ambush where you wait till the last second unburrow and BAM then reburrow and move away
On February 27 2010 05:47 LunarC wrote: Let's take a moment to think about why Zerg seems so boring. People seem to pin it on the roach and infestor at the moment, because one is easy to mass and the other has abilities with very limited use.
I think the source of zerg "boringness" lies so much deeper than that.
Before anything else, it's beta and people may not have found an optimal unit mix that works well. Hence, people simply tend to mass units, tech up, and mass other units. However, pinning this tendency to simply mass units on the fact that it's beta means that we are overlooking the possibility that perhaps massing the right units actually is the optimal way to play Starcraft 2.
To a certain extent this is true for Starcraft 1 as well, but there is a fundamental difference in how this massing of units is complemented with high-risk high-damage units. Starcraft 2 instead features a much more simplistic form of counters in the form of bonus damage than Starcraft 1 did. Take the lurker for example. Its strength was "hard counter"-like but there were severe limitations on how it attacked. Why did lurkers in Starcraft 1 become a popular unit? This is because it was very effective against the massed unit style of m&m and dealt with zealots very well. Why was it such an exciting unit? The lurker was unable to easily get into position to deal large amounts of damage because of its low hp and inability to attack while above ground. This created a need for Zerglings to act as a shield while lurkers moved into place.
It wasn't the thrill of watching swarms of units smash into the opposition that made Zerg exciting. It was the very sharp tension caused by the possibility of dealing large amounts of damage combined with the possibility of losing too many expensive units that made battles exciting. It was the significance of the micro that made this battle exciting. This is why scourge were exciting, this is why mutalisk clumps were exciting, and this is why defilers were exciting. They generated tension.
So why is the roach not exciting? The roach is not exciting for three interdependent reasons:
1. It's very durable. 2. It's very cheap. 3. It deals a decent amount of damage.
By themselves, each of the above three features would make good single units. The problem is that all three of these characteristics are present in the same unit. Durability and low cost makes it low-risk. Decent amounts of damage makes it useful on its own with little need for supporting units. It simply takes too much of a middle ground to make it exciting in any way. If they had only 80 hitpoints but moved faster without the need for an upgrade, they would become much more exciting to watch as strategic burrowing and unburrowing takes place and Zerglings rush in from the sides as Roaches would be decimated without Ling support.
Banelings are not very exciting either for similar reasons. It is cheap and it deals only a decent amount of damage. The point is to generate tension with this kind of unit, meaning that this unit should possess the potential to be devastating while being difficult to use.
A. Higher gas cost would make it a greater economic investment. B. Friendly splash damage would make it a greater micro investment. C. Lower hitpoints + friendly splash would make it only useful as support. D. Higher damage will give greater returns and combined with the above, create greater tension.
This is what I think of these Zerg units, though I believe the Ultralisk and Immortal suffer from being too strong in relatively small numbers to be "tanks" and the Collossus is too unwieldy to micro. It's similar to the shuttle/reaver in terms of resource and time cost, but in terms of micro cost it's barely there. Again, there is not much tension. A shuttle could barely escape in the red with the reaver, but if a Collossus is caught alone, it stands no chance. Maybe Blizzard intends on balancing units to cause evenly distributed groups of staple and counter units to create exciting but even battles, and that micro will be useful no matter what and so does not need to be a very major factor. On the contrary, exciting battles are the result of tension caused by the fact that a single slip in unit control on either side could result in massive losses.
I really like this analysis of it. I, personally, also hate the Roach. Unfortunately, it has pretty much become the staple of the Zerg army. But its slow movement rate and durability makes it very Protoss-like, which isn't what Zerg is supposed to be about.
Zerg is supposed to be a fast, expendable, swarming type of force. The suggestion you made to reduce the Roach's HP and make them move faster is a really great suggestion. I think doing that, by itself, will improve the SC2Beta so much. I just really hate things that feel like WC3 Grunts =[
I waited 7 years for WC3 and got really dissapointed when it was released, even though I tried to enjoy it. However, being a WC2 addict I tried out SC1 and took it too my heart. I wonder how much Bill Roper contributed to the greatness of SC1 and WC2, having in mind he is not at Blizzard for either WC3 and SC2...
If I were Blizzard I would scrap the Roach, and try to look at new ways to improve Zerg with the same quality as they improved Protoss. Perhaps moving the Hydra back to tier 1.5, or find ways to evolve the Hydra at Tier 2, or have the Zerglings evolvabe an additional time at Tier 2, with perhaps Baneling that can grow wings. That would be cool.
I was also thinking that IF they move Hydra to Tier 1 and scrap Roach, they could turn the Infestor into a Reaver like unit with support abilities and attack abilities, or something. Since I do believe there is potential in Infestor, contrary to the Roach. I always liked the meleeish Zergs, and Roach just doesn't cut it.
Another VERY cool idea with the Infestor would be if, when the Infestor first meet an enemy unit in a match (marine or zealot), it can try to devouver it, and if it succeeds with capturing it and sucking it in, the Infestor can start making foul copies of it in her big back and then start "puking" up these bastardized versions of the marine and zealot and use them as a Tier 2 unit. Almost like a portable unit factory, but that perhaps only can create them on creep or something. That would work much cooler than the way the Blizzard handles Infested terrans now. I imagine real interesting matchups where a Terran does his best to avoid getting a marine sucked in by an Infestor so that the Zerg will never be able to reach this Tier 2 Infested unit stage. On the other hand the Zerg player will try to get as close as possible with an Infestor (and sacrificing loads of Lings) to capture a marine or zeal so he can start producing foul copies. The Terran will do his best to die the normal way to avoid giving the Zerg his advantage. Pretty cool idea IMHO! That would be really Zergish, and would send thrills down the spines in the marine mess halls. "Guys, Jeremy got sucked in last battle, even though he tried to commit suicide before it happened, and today I'm afraid we will meet him on the battlefield, spraying green glob from his badly copied rifle... "
they need to change it to like 20 dmg +15 vs light, not 15 dmg +20 vs light..or evne more extreme. really too many units in this game are hard counters for X unit but suck too badly vs Y
It would probably make ZvZ less boring with all those Roach wars going on... Ling/Hydra/Bane early game would be kinda cool and more micro-intensive to play
I agree, the Zerg don't have much new or exciting. Most people are confusing this with "Zerg suck" No, Zerg are capable of spanking bitches up n down the aisle, but they don't really have that many cool new features.
Blizzard just gave all of the cool ideas to Protoss.
Yeah I don't really agree with the OP. I think the new Zerg is really awesome and people haven't used the newest version of the infestor to its best ability which I believe has a lot of potential. Corrupters ability to disable buildings for 30 seconds or w/e amount of time it is, actually can be really awesome. So I disagree. I think the least amount of new is in the zerg as far as units got but I think that zerg was already so great I am glad they didn't change too much of it. I think zerg does need 1 more unit to feel more complete. Toss and terran feel like they have such a huge lineup of units and options in every matchup compared to zerg. Maybe the lurker is the answer. The way balance is now though I can't see lurkers feeling too balanced unless they were really expensive.
I read somewhere a very good point about what makes battle maneuvering interesting: things that don't move.
BW had
Terran: - Siege tanks - Spider mines Protoss: - Psi Storm - To a lesser extent, Reavers move very slowly, and Templar and Carriers move fairly slowly. Zerg: - Lurkers - Dark Swarm
SC2 by contrast has
Terran: - Siege tanks - Autoturret and point defense drone via the Raven Protoss: - Psi Storm - Force Field - To a lesser extent, the Mothership and some other units move slowly Zerg: ...
My two favorite points so far: a unit's effectiveness should be proportional to the amount of effort the player puts into it.
And what makes SC so fun is that you can win or lose a battle outright in devastating fashion based not on static things like hp and speed but on your own hands.
SC1 is a cut-throat game with an infinite amount of edges to exploit. We need a game that's just ruthless to the player. Allow a player to rape your whole base with a group of mutas if they are good enough with them. C'mon Blizzard, don't be afraid.
Man, I didn't see anyone mention this, but I feel like the zerg lost a huge part of their identity with their speed. The hydra and utralisk are SO SLOW. The ultra does look awesome, but since when do zerg have huge siege weapons that lumber across the map?
OP hit a lot of the problem on the nose. And ok, sure, it's about nostalgia, but not for the same units or same exact game. Something about the races should be consistent: their feel.
On February 27 2010 13:03 HowitZer wrote: a unit's effectiveness should be proportional to the amount of effort the player puts into it.
Could not agree more. Right now Zerg just feels too much like you're only encouraged to scout often, tech appropriately, macro hard, and a-move your army. Zerglings auto-surround and are pretty weak against early game units anyways (rather, roaches are infinitely better so making lings makes very little sense). Roaches are painfully slow until you get the speed upgrade (lair) so you don't really need to micro them hard. Mutalisks don't stack, so all you need to control them for is for hit and runs to harass workers and sniping key units in big fights (colossus). Hydralisks are slow so there's very little micro for them as well.
On February 27 2010 00:51 onmach wrote: The problem is that some four units in zerg were carried over with little if any change (zergling, hydra, muta, ultra). Compared to protoss which has two? (zealot, carrier). So of course there is more interesting stuff happening in that race.
Z - 4 Zergling Hydralisk Mutalisk Ultralisk
P - 6 Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Carrier Archon Observer
T - 4 Marine Ghost Siege Tank Battlecruiser
This excludes larva and worker units.
Forgot Guardian and overlord for Z.
No overlord does not have automatic detection now.
I think the Discussion about how many new Units are in SC2 for each race, doesn't have that much to do with how good, demanding and fun to play the race is. (Balancing sin't the Issue here, because balance-fixes are much easier to implement, than totally new Units and stuff, so don't look on whether the Units are strong, just on how fun to play they are and how versatile and demanding to play etc.)
Take Terran for example: Lot's of new Units that are Interesting, versatile and they grow stronger the more time you invest on microing them (again, the GREAT Quote mentioned above: a unit's effectiveness should be proportional to the amount of effort the player puts into it.) Also, it's important to note, that the time spent on a Unit to utilize it to the maximum should be almost infinite and that it should be proportional, which means; if I micro this Unit 50% of the time during 1 minute, they should do more or less halve DMG than when I Micro them 100% of the time during 1 Minute. So it should be possible to spend as much time as you want on a Unit and be able to use that time and skill properly. This Fact makes all the different playstyles in SC1 possible! Of course, you will never be able to win just by microing one Unit-Group, but it should be possible to win with different micro to macro ratios.
This is totally true for some of the Units in SC2:
- Reaper (if you harrass with them they require a lot of Multitasking if you wanna keep up with macro and microing your main-army etc.) If you watch them closely, you'll do much DMG, you won't loose many Reapers because you can Retreat quickly etc. but you may neglect Macro a bit. - Hellion (Fast Unit without much Health but does nice AoE DMG - ->Very Microintensiv). If you try to hit the maximum Amount of Units with the Flamethrower, you have to have very good Positioning with Hellions, you also have to watch that they don't die, you can scout around the Map with them and maybe miss sth if you don't watch but Macro etc. Again: They're much better if you watch/micro them closely, but naturally, you won't be able to do other stuff, because your preoccupied with Microing the Hellions.
- Marauder: You can try to slow as many Targets as possible, Target only Melee, keep retreating and Focusing when necessary etc. You can invest so much time to make better use of the Marauders, but still they aren't just worthless if you don't Micro them as hard but concentrate on macroing or doing other stuff.
Now tell me to what extent that is possible with some of the new Units, like Colossus, Immortal, Thor etc. Those ARE new Units, but not interesting and fun to play just because they're new. Also, some old Units like Mutas aren't as fun as in SC1, because Microing is limited by the new Engine. Another thing is, that some old Units aren't as Micro-intensive, because of new features being implemented in SC2, for example every caster just because of intelligent casting.
In SC1, if you had High Templars and wanted to use them in a fight, you had to or in better words you could invest more time to use them than in SC2, but I woudln't say (from what I've heard and read) that High Templars are weaker in SC2 and noone would say they're weak in SC1! It's just that in SC1, the amount of time needed for one good Storm is higher than in SC2. This leads to different Playstyles in SC1, because you constantly are basically neglecting HUGE parts of the Game. Now its totally up to the player on what he's concentrating, in SC2, Micro and Macro is definitely necessary and if you're good at it, you'll have an advantage, but to what extent compared to SC1? With Macroing being maybe less of a problem because more Macro-oriented strategies will evolve over time and the Macro-possibilities are quite good, it's all about the Unit-Quality and the fact, that you can do less with good Micro and total focus on controlling the Unit right, than in SC1.
On February 27 2010 19:26 tlwilim wrote: I do think zerg is now the weakest ...
Which is totally untrue AND totally not the point of this Discussion....
To be frank, the first sentence of this topic is: "This post is not about balance or about the hard counter nature of SC2 (which I am not sure I like at all), but about the units of Zerg."
This thread is pretty useless. "Zerg is boring" or "Zerg is bland" are some pretty unquantifiable statements. Are they? Aren't they? Who's to say? I'm sorry you feel that way, but Blizzard can't please everybody, nor should they try to. It's a new game, and you'll adapt in time.
The worst MU right now is ZvZ hands down. if you try to deviate from the 1 base roach mass, anyone who knows what they're doing will roll over you. I'm actually at the point now where ZvZs arn't fun, at all. As in I'd rather be doing something else because playing the game isn't in the slightest bit enjoyable, even if I win over and over.
I've attempted over and over to find a different meta-game that works, to no avail, you go mass roach with a few hydras behind depending on the size of the chokes on the map, with an overseer following you around, just to ensure nobody tries to do any micro or anything, because we can't have that!
On February 27 2010 21:43 ComradeDover wrote: This thread is pretty useless. "Zerg is boring" or "Zerg is bland" are some pretty unquantifiable statements. Are they? Aren't they? Who's to say? I'm sorry you feel that way, but Blizzard can't please everybody, nor should they try to. It's a new game, and you'll adapt in time.
umm, the point of the entire thread IS to quantify what exactly about zerg is causing this problem.
The OP posted his opinion, many people agreed, now we are trying to nail down what we believe should be changed.
The way i see it, Blizzard is currently building a stable base with few units, which will be Sc2. For the addons the game will get more and more interesting. With new units and new spells added for more diversity in game play. But for now a stable base is more important than many diverse units and so on. Take the medics from Sc1 for example.
The current Zerg is in my opinion really interesting with the improved usage of nydus canals and creep. Furthermore, the infestor can be used quite effective and is a good addition to the zerg arsenal with the fungal growth ability. Its just a shame, that the infestor cant use its abilities from underground. The Roach is just a unit, which has to be build almost all the time. Feels a bit forced :/
Nice descrition of the Terran triple B's though: Bigger, bulkier, better for every tier. :D I agree with you on that one.
On February 27 2010 21:43 ComradeDover wrote: This thread is pretty useless. "Zerg is boring" or "Zerg is bland" are some pretty unquantifiable statements. Are they? Aren't they? Who's to say? I'm sorry you feel that way, but Blizzard can't please everybody, nor should they try to. It's a new game, and you'll adapt in time.
umm, the point of the entire thread IS to quantify what exactly about zerg is causing this problem.
The OP posted his opinion, many people agreed, now we are trying to nail down what we believe should be changed.
your post on the other hand...
Exactly. The OP posted his opinion, some agree, and some don't. The game can't be all things to all people.
I, for one, happen to love the Zerg, and I love the endless tactical micro possibilities the infestor opens up, yet some seem to hate this. It seems to me that people are just looking for something to bitch about. Perhaps those looking for flaws in the game should look inward for a minute?
Hydras are so damn slow, I don't see how they could ever be micro'd effectively. What's attractive to me about Zerg in SC1 is how they can outmaneuver the enemy, but in SC2 I haven't found that yet, and it's frustrating. I feel like I'm just doing macro and attack-moving. This is a general problem I have with the game -- it's not clear where the tactical maneuvering is... it's not clear what you can really micro. Also, unit counters seem so much more important than micro control, it's depressing.
On February 27 2010 21:43 ComradeDover wrote: This thread is pretty useless. "Zerg is boring" or "Zerg is bland" are some pretty unquantifiable statements.
WRONG!
You can definitely see that some Units are more versatile than others, have more potential to be microed to fully utilize their potential, aren't Units that are easily countered by another Unit or counter-units themselves, aren't just limited to serving one porpuse etc.
just look at this Example of two different low- to mid-Tier-Units: (onfusingly enough, the Low-Tier Unit is more versatile than the Mid-Tier Unit, so the argument that the hihgher the Tier, the more Interesting the Unit is with all kinds of Spells and abilities isn't very viable)
Immortal VS Reaper:
Reaper - Reaper can jump up and down cliffs, they die quickly but are great to harrass buildings, they can be utilized in big battles, but also to harrass, they are no counter-unit to anything and can by countered by so many different Units, IF the opponent pays attention and knows about the possibilities, that the Terran-User may go Reapers:
1) Protoss for example can turtle in base with cannons, or just leave a few Stalkers at home or other Units like Immortal or Colossus to protect the base. 2) Not only can he use different Units/defensive Structures, but also different Strategies to deal with the Reapers: Sm1 maybe defends perfectly, but has to stay on one Base and tech. Another player expands anyway, but maybe looses a few more Buildings/probes etc.
- Reapers have a lot of Micromanagement-possibilities: You can pay a lot of attention to your reapers and save every single one oft them when harrassing, you can Micro by jumping up and down of cliffs against Melee-Units or so your opponent doesn't see the Reapers if he's on lowground etc.
Immortals - Immortals are a direct hard Counterunit to Units that deal heavy amounts of DMG with one shot, like Tanks. Because they are slow and can't jump cliffs, burrow or have any interesting skills, you can't really micro them on a level you can Micro other Units and because they have a lot of HP, you don't even need to that much. So basically Immortals are just good, if your opponent has the right Unit-Composition. - You can't really go and harrass with Immortals if you're opponent hasn't much Tanks, but only Marines&Marauders&Medivacs, so they are a Hard-Counter Unit AND serve only one purpose: attacking the enemiy Army directly. Other Units may be also good at harrassing, scouting, countering other Units if you use them correctly etc. (take Valkyries from SC1 for example: Even though they are "just" Air-to-Air and are most effective against large Groups of Units balled up in one place (so ppl may or may not call them hard counter units), you could still scout around with them, go kill some overloards etc. if the Zerg switched from Mutas to Ground-Units)
Now tell me that this stuff mentioned above is just all about taste and personal opinion - Total BS! -.-°
On February 27 2010 22:33 kickinhead wrote: WRONG!
...
just look at this Example of two different Tier1-Units:
Immortal VS Reaper:
Facepalm.jpg
Yeah, i've corrected it because I first wanted to use roach as an Example but then decided to use Immortal, but thanks for pointing this hugely important flaw in my argumentation out...
On February 27 2010 22:33 kickinhead wrote: WRONG!
...
just look at this Example of two different Tier1-Units:
Immortal VS Reaper:
Facepalm.jpg
Yeah, i've corrected it because I first wanted to use roach as an Example but then decided to use Immortal, but thanks for pointing this hugely important flaw in my argumentation out...
Is is important. Why not compare to the marine, and call the marine boring? The Muta is pretty boring too, all it does is fly and shoot and we can't micro it anymore, let's scrap that too. What is the point you're trying to make, anyway?
The OP is making a very specific claim about the Zerg race. Not that they lack interesting micro possibilities (Anyone who has seen moving roach burrows or has given the infestor serious use will be able to tell you that isn't the case), but that they feel boring and bland from a lore and design perspective. He might as well be complaining that he didn't like the story of the movie Avatar or something. If he said that, my response would be the same; "I'm sorry that this game/movie wasn't for you, but it can't and shouldn't be all things to all people".
These reactions are understandable, it's nostalgia for a large part, and people trying to rationalize it. I think zerg is looking pretty good in sc2 already.
On February 27 2010 22:33 kickinhead wrote: WRONG!
...
just look at this Example of two different Tier1-Units:
Immortal VS Reaper:
Facepalm.jpg
Yeah, i've corrected it because I first wanted to use roach as an Example but then decided to use Immortal, but thanks for pointing this hugely important flaw in my argumentation out...
Is is important. Why not compare to the marine, and call the marine boring? The Muta is pretty boring too, all it does is fly and shoot and we can't micro it anymore, let's scrap that too. What is the point you're trying to make, anyway?
The OP is making a very specific claim about the Zerg race. Not that they lack interesting micro possibilities (Anyone who has seen moving roach burrows or has given the infestor serious use will be able to tell you that isn't the case), but that they feel boring and bland from a lore and design perspective. He might as well be complaining that he didn't like the story of the movie Avatar or something. If he said that, my response would be the same; "I'm sorry that this game/movie wasn't for you, but it can't and shouldn't be all things to all people".
About the first Part: Now your just being difficult... The Reaper is T1 and Immortal is T2, so if anything, the Reaper should be the "boring" Unit, right? And your example isn't really good either, because Marines aren't boring and you can put in more effort controlling them but also get more out of it, then with immortals. They're a more versatile and demanding Unit than Immortals/Colossus/Roach: they're more fragile, have the Stim-Ability, better synergies with other Units like Marauder&Medivac, aren't just counter-units and they can be upgraded and used from the first minute of the game till the last minute of a game of any length and pretty much against any unit-combination your opponent has.
As for the second part, you're of course partially right, you can't always make everything right, BUT with a community of People that have been playing SC and/or WC3 an/or various other Games for the Past 10+ years, even on a professional level, you can definetely find out what the things were that made SC1 such a huge success and for me, the biggest part is just it's complexity. That's pretty much the easiest way I can put it. I just think that SC2 is less complex and demanding than SC1, but here comes the catch: This stuff is not salient on a Beginner-Level and even on a Professional Level, SC2 will not be decided by Race, Map or anything, because all the players have maxed out the potential of the game (which will never happen, there will alwas be a better player!), but it will show in how games are played out: It will be like WC3, were you see basically the same Game over and over again, depening on the race and maybe the Map, because you can't really be creative or very different on how you play the game and on what aspect of the game you concentrate on what time.
To make those things possible, SC2 has to deliver complexity on every level there is. They did a good job making macro possible and viable even with MBS and AM, but with Micro-related stuff like better pathfinding, no air-unit-stacking and no proper H/P-Button Control, Intelligent Casting and some in my opinion unversatile und undemanding Units (micro-wise), they've made Micro much less complex and because the Community didn't RAGE like crazy (as they did against MBS and AA) Blizzard didn't realize that they have to put stuff in, that replaces the loss of the above mentioned micro-aspects to give the players more possibilities in micro, than they could ever actually do during a fight, so they had to prioritize, like in SC1.
Don't see my Critic as SC2-Bashing, but as helping Blizzard creating the best possible SC2 they can. I Mean: That Sc1 was so awesome, is a great deal just luck: We can't just hope that there will be a bug in Blizzard, that allows interesting Micro, like the Mutastacking-"bug" in SC1, because that probably won't happen. But what Blizzard can do to again create a RTS-Revolution, is to listen to the rich and enthusiastic Community and if the Community want's SC2 to be great, they should be open for suggestions and not opposed to anything anybody dares to say that aren't just praising chants about SC2, because we don't need a Beta for stuff like that.
And yes, I haven't played the Beta, but I've watched tons of streams and read a lot and I have to be honest: If I was in the Beta right now, I probably wouldn't look at SC2 as critical as I do right now but would just be on cloud-9 and tear every "noob" up that besmurges the greatness that is SC2, but is this a good, or a bad thing? Or do we maybe need someone that maybe sounds a little more critical, but also the people giving good feddback, because Blizzard did a great job? Of course even the Blizzard-guys are just Humans and they need and want the Feedback, so even if I may sound more SC2-opposed, than I actually am, it's IMHO important stuff that sm1 speaks up about those things that COULD make SC2 an even better game!
There is something about zerg that make them seem kind of bland compare to the other two races... the lack of an iconic and cool unit might be the cause of this. Queen is one, but a sort of stationary one.
I don't see any good replacements for the lurker, scourge or defilers yet... good as in "cool and iconic" as well as useful.
My biggest hope is that scourge and lurkers are implemented beacuse those are two units that truly fit Starcraft as an e-sport, both for spectators and players. How to get those two units balanced is obviously another issue.
Honestly I like the way they are going with Zerg. Having less spells and abilities on them, and making each single unit less game-changing as a result gives them a unique flavor. You have the ability to spawn an entire army quicker than any other race. Once you have some tech down you can design the mix of units for each wave you send at them continuing to adapt and change to counter their unitmix. It's more about calculated unit selection and positioning than it is about casting x spells and abusing y mechanics. To me it is even more Zergy than SC1.
queens suck because: 1base unitmassing with Zerg - R U SERIOUS BLIZZARD?
the idea to increase macro and aspects of th queen r nice, but she needs complete overhaul:
- scout dies immediately against queen - not SC-like at all and makes multitasking/micro in the early stages of the game less crucial when playing with or against Z. - 1base-massing is sooooo baaaaaad. It's starcraft2, not warcraft 4 and on top of that its Zerg!
On February 28 2010 00:14 kickinhead wrote: queens suck because: 1base unitmassing with Zerg - R U SERIOUS BLIZZARD?
the idea to increase macro and aspects of th queen r nice, but she needs complete overhaul:
- scout dies immediately against queen - not SC-like at all and makes multitasking/micro in the early stages of the game less crucial when playing with or against Z. - 1base-massing is sooooo baaaaaad. It's starcraft2, not warcraft 4 and on top of that its Zerg!
If one race deserves to feel massible off a single base it's Zerg. When your dealing with higher tech like Muta or higher they can pump out an initial 9 or so off one base, but if you drop their numbers they will struggle to continually replenish more gas heavy units.
Not that I'm saying all discussions like this are useless, but why do you people have such a polarized opinion when it comes to sc1 vs sc2?^^; I mean I love sc1 too and I want to see a worthy successor but you're sounding like you know both games inside out! People keep calling the Roach boring and not "zerg-like". In terms of the whole "zerg should be swarming with lots of uniiiits!: Play some TvZ in sc1. You'll be losing to 6 lurkers, or maybe 11 mutalisks quite a bit (unless you're already very good at TvZ). Zerg in sc1 have beefy units, and they certainly don't swarm in every situation. In fact I find ling-all ins boring after they happen for the 10th time in a row.
I'd also like you to sit a complete noob, or maybe a guy from a different RTS down as zerg on sc1 and have him play it. He won't Muta micro, he will deem the queen and scourge (and pretty much mutas) useless, he'll won't use defilers effectively at all and deem them crap. In short: zerg in sc1 are a boring race of "build zerglings and lurkers". At least to someone who hasn't spent a huge amount of time exploring the game. Obviously a bit of an eggagerated way of saying it, but my point is you people play or see 100 games and you decide it's boring because it doesn't have the amount of possibilities of the other game that has been explored for 11 years.... quite frankly I can't take that argument seriously. On the surface sc2 looks to have tons of possibilities. Using changelings to spot the middle of a guys's base and plop down a nydus? Or bringing up the roach: regenerates like a madman underground and can move while burrowed? And you find this boring? You find there are no possibilities to micro a unit like that? Have you seen how many shots from an immortal a burrowed roach can take? Watching all the noobs or even sc1 veterans play sc2 may look alot like a-moving compared to watching a sc1 pro play sc1, but come on.. you have to acknowledge that that's much MUCH more likely the case because people don't understand the game yet, not because the game itself is boring. If you can't even acknowledge that that is partially true then I don't think anyone will take these ramplings particularly serious. I won't. Zerg have the ability to swarm, to kill someone's base with a handful of roaches if they micro them well, of sneaking doomdroppy nydus worms everywhere on the map, of burrowing banelings ala mass-minefield etc. not...boring...
On February 27 2010 23:15 kickinhead wrote: About the first Part: Now your just being difficult... The Reaper is T1 and Immortal is T2, so if anything, the Reaper should be the "boring" Unit, right?
Uh...no. What in the world would make you think that?
On February 27 2010 23:15 kickinhead wrote: And your example isn't really good either, because Marines aren't boring and you can put in more effort controlling them but also get more out of it, then with immortals. They're a more versatile and demanding Unit than Immortals/Colossus/Roach: they're more fragile, have the Stim-Ability, better synergies with other Units like Marauder&Medivac, aren't just counter-units and they can be upgraded and used from the first minute of the game till the last minute of a game of any length and pretty much against any unit-combination your opponent has.
You're still arguing an irrelevant point. Zerg have plenty of interesting micro opportunities, see burrow movement and infestor shenanigans.
On February 27 2010 23:15 kickinhead wrote: As for the second part, you're of course partially right, you can't always make everything right, BUT with a community of People that have been playing SC and/or WC3 an/or various other Games for the Past 10+ years, even on a professional level, you can definetely find out what the things were that made SC1 such a huge success and for me, the biggest part is just it's complexity. That's pretty much the easiest way I can put it.
Okay.
On February 27 2010 23:15 kickinhead wrote: I just think that SC2 is less complex and demanding than SC1, but here comes the catch: This stuff is not salient on a Beginner-Level and even on a Professional Level, SC2 will not be decided by Race, Map or anything, because all the players have maxed out the potential of the game (which will never happen, there will alwas be a better player!), but it will show in how games are played out: It will be like WC3, were you see basically the same Game over and over again, depening on the race and maybe the Map, because you can't really be creative or very different on how you play the game and on what aspect of the game you concentrate on what time.
I guess you're entitled to your beliefs, and I can't really stop you from making bogus predictions, but you really shouldn't represent them as fact.
On February 27 2010 23:15 kickinhead wrote: To make those things possible, SC2 has to deliver complexity on every level there is. They did a good job making macro possible and viable even with MBS and AM, but with Micro-related stuff like better pathfinding, no air-unit-stacking and no proper H/P-Button Control, Intelligent Casting and some in my opinion unversatile und undemanding Units (micro-wise), they've made Micro much less complex and because the Community didn't RAGE like crazy (as they did against MBS and AA) Blizzard didn't realize that they have to put stuff in, that replaces the loss of the above mentioned micro-aspects to give the players more possibilities in micro, than they could ever actually do during a fight, so they had to prioritize, like in SC1.
Since this thread is specifically about the zerg, let me repeat myself: There are plenty of micro opportunities with the Zerg race. Really. I mean it. Go play the game.
On February 27 2010 23:15 kickinhead wrote: Don't see my Critic as SC2-Bashing, but as helping Blizzard creating the best possible SC2 they can. I Mean: That Sc1 was so awesome, is a great deal just luck: We can't just hope that there will be a bug in Blizzard, that allows interesting Micro, like the Mutastacking-"bug" in SC1, because that probably won't happen. But what Blizzard can do to again create a RTS-Revolution, is to listen to the rich and enthusiastic Community and if the Community want's SC2 to be great, they should be open for suggestions and not opposed to anything anybody dares to say that aren't just praising chants about SC2, because we don't need a Beta for stuff like that.
wintergt's post above you summed it up pretty well. You're just pining for SC1. Nostalgia is fine, but please realize that this is a whole new game.
On February 27 2010 23:15 kickinhead wrote: And yes, I haven't played the Beta, but I've watched tons of streams and read a lot and I have to be honest: If I was in the Beta right now, I probably wouldn't look at SC2 as critical as I do right now but would just be on cloud-9 and tear every "noob" up that besmurges the greatness that is SC2, but is this a good, or a bad thing? Or do we maybe need someone that maybe sounds a little more critical, but also the people giving good feddback, because Blizzard did a great job? Of course even the Blizzard-guys are just Humans and they need and want the Feedback, so even if I may sound more SC2-opposed, than I actually am, it's IMHO important stuff that sm1 speaks up about those things that COULD make SC2 an even better game!
No offense or anything, and I'm really not trying to be rude, but if you're making this huge speech and you're not even actually IN the beta, you need to shut the fuck up.
But as a spectator, I think the greatest thing about SC1 was how unit mixes would complement one another, rather than simply counter the opponent's army. ZvT Lurker/Ling was exciting because while Zerglings were mobile and weak, Lurkers were position-dependent and strong. Add in Scourge that could easily destroy the only unit that made going against Lurkers easier, and you have a very intense and dynamic battle. Dynamic not in the sense that every unit is mobile, but dynamic in the feeling of tension. As a spectator, I really don't feel that same sense of dynamic tension in an SC2 battle because everything is just moving and attacking. Few things have to be positioned correctly to deal its damage, like the Reaver, Tank, or Lurker, without being vulnerable to its hard counter. It seems like SC2 units were designed around cute tactical possibilities rather than allowing for complex army control.
Example:
Stalker: It can warp around the map and back while sacrificing any semblence of being a solid unit. For being one of the staples of the protoss force, it's kind of unacceptable to cater to its concept of being a super mobile "base raider" tactical use rather than its actual usefullness in combat. It's like removing the marauder and forcing Terran to deal with the Reaper instead.
Roach: Fast regeneration tank. So why is there an Ultralisk? Roach makes Zerg less vulnerable at mid-game. What about the hydralisk? How about making the Roach's use more interesting within the context of the rest of the Zerg army?
Colossus: If this was meant to replace the Reaver/Shuttle, I can't see how it does so. It's not exciting to watch. There is no tension watching a Colossus march across the map, and there's little importance in positioning/control associated with the Colossus.
Immortal: It's way too strong to make mech viable within the context of the larger Protoss force. This discourages using the Seige Tank's positional advantage, which discourages army control beyond a-move. Maybe its strength is to make up for the Stalker's weakness whose weakness is to make up for its mobility which it has because somebody wanted Protoss to have a cute tactical unit that could warp around a lot. @&^*$#&^$*&
On February 28 2010 11:41 LunarC wrote: Disclaimer: I'm not in beta.
But as a spectator, I think the greatest thing about SC1 was how unit mixes would complement one another, rather than simply counter the opponent's army. ZvT Lurker/Ling was exciting because while Zerglings were mobile and weak, Lurkers were position-dependent and strong. Add in Scourge that could easily destroy the only unit that made going against Lurkers easier, and you have a very intense and dynamic battle. Dynamic not in the sense that every unit is mobile, but dynamic in the feeling of tension. As a spectator, I really don't feel that same sense of dynamic tension in an SC2 battle because everything is just moving and attacking. Few things have to be positioned correctly to deal its damage, like the Reaver, Tank, or Lurker, without being vulnerable to its hard counter. It seems like SC2 units were designed around cute tactical possibilities rather than allowing for complex army control.
Example:
Stalker: It can warp around the map and back while sacrificing any semblence of being a solid unit. For being one of the staples of the protoss force, it's kind of unacceptable to cater to its concept of being a super mobile "base raider" tactical use rather than its actual usefullness in combat. It's like removing the marauder and forcing Terran to deal with the Reaper instead.
Roach: Fast regeneration tank. So why is there an Ultralisk? Roach makes Zerg less vulnerable at mid-game. What about the hydralisk? How about making the Roach's use more interesting within the context of the rest of the Zerg army?
Colossus: If this was meant to replace the Reaver/Shuttle, I can't see how it does so. It's not exciting to watch. There is no tension watching a Colossus march across the map, and there's little importance in positioning/control associated with the Colossus.
Immortal: It's way too strong to make mech viable within the context of the larger Protoss force. This discourages using the Seige Tank's positional advantage, which discourages army control beyond a-move. Maybe its strength is to make up for the Stalker's weakness whose weakness is to make up for its mobility which it has because somebody wanted Protoss to have a cute tactical unit that could warp around a lot. @&^*$#&^$*&
75% agree ^^'
I rly think the Stalker is a good "replacement" for the dragoon, because its not a easier/less interesting unit, but quite the opposite because of an interesting ability.
And thats what blizz should do: give units more skills, mobility etc: if theyre too strong - balance them. thats way better than a boring unit like immortal or collossus.
No. Enough artificially adding in more "micro" opportunities to clutter up the game in addition to the added in "macro" opporunities. The existing units are more than enough to work with and to create units that work well together given the micro commitment. This means make using units to their full potential more complex and don't make units so easy to use. Make poor control more punishing. Enough with more abilities, more options, more tactical stuff. The complexity will build itself if given a good foundation to build off of.
From what I've seen in sc2armory.com it looks like they temporarily removed the Lurker Den for beta testing. Though this leaves me to believe that they are actually thinking about removing the Lurker in general -_-. They're probably say "Oh we removed them because Zerg already has a unit that uses a unique burrow technique (Roaches) which in my opinion is stupid. Also you said the most interesting units were Scourge and Lurkers? I agree with you on lurkers... but you totally forgot about defilers.. how can you not like fucking plaguu? Plus the new spellcaster for Zerg is garbage compared to the Defiler. Fungal growth is like a very gimped Psi Storm, Infested Terrans.. LOL wtf do you use these for other than maybe a distraction? The only ability that could be good is Neural Parasite but it's still gonna be hard to pull off.
On February 28 2010 20:25 LunarC wrote: No. Enough artificially adding in more "micro" opportunities to clutter up the game in addition to the added in "macro" opporunities. The existing units are more than enough to work with and to create units that work well together given the micro commitment. This means make using units to their full potential more complex and don't make units so easy to use. Make poor control more punishing. Enough with more abilities, more options, more tactical stuff. The complexity will build itself if given a good foundation to build off of.
I get what you're saying with artificially implementing new stuff, but it's just a fact, that the AI is just so much better than in SC1 and one way to make Micro useful and necessary is just a crappy AI without superb pathfinding and auto-surround.
But if we want to have the same amount of complexity (and don't get me wrong; SC2 is complex and definitely one of the Top-3 Games out there in terms of complexity, but SC1 is just more complex), certain changes have to be made. If you want to measure SC2 up against these incredibly high standards, you would pretty much either have to mess around with the engine so maybe it's harder to surround with lings and make Mutastacking etc. possible, or you have to implement new stuff. Of course just If you wan't SC2 to be even more complex. For some this may not be as important, but if you think of SC2 as being a game thats gonna be played 10 years for now, It suddenly get's more and more important, because already some ppl from the beta say SC2 is more boring to watch and to play and that you have less options etc.
Also, it's always about the execution of certain Idea's and concepts: Ppl think Units in SC2 are too fast and have too good movement-options etc. that's one thing that's different from SC1, but is it bad? - I don't think so, because fast Units that are able to maybe jump up and down ramps or blink around, require a lot of Multitasking and Micro, which makes up for the fact, that microing is easier in general. Do I think every Unit needs some kind of special Spell or sth like that? No, because thats not the only way to make good micro possible, here are some examples that have nothing to do with special skills (like psystorm for example) or special movement-oriented passiveabilities (like being able to fly or jump up and down ramps):
Slow attack speed, fast attack animation: Imagine a constant ray, like the one from the Sentry that does practically DoT for as long as you target the Enemy. With this sort of attack, you can't Micro without making the Unit less effective. Compare this with maybe an attack of a Dragoon from SC1: It had a kinda long "cooldown", but a faster Animation, which made "Dragoon-Dancing" possible. In SC1, there are kinda much Units that have this constant-DoT-Type of Attack and others can just shoot while walking (colossus if I'm not mistaken).
So this simple Aspect of a Unit is crucial in terms of Micro-possibilities.
DMG-Dealer VS Tank: - In SC1, almost any Unit that could deal a lot of DMG was very fragile and you had to micro and position them very carefully during Big Battles and also when harrassing (Reaver+Shuttle / High Templars / Defilers / Scourge). - Other Units we're harder to kill, but they didn't deal that much DMG compared to their cost (Ultras, Zealots and in big fights basically all the "backbone"-Units, even Dragoons, Zerglings, M&M's we're overshadowed by the DMG output of those Micro-intensive Units, that rewarded the player with their effectiveness). - The Mobility of a Unit was also very crucial: Most of the heavy-Dmg-dealers weren't really mobile, so you had to put them in shuttles/Dropships to utilize them effectively. Other Units were very Mobile, like Vultures, but they only did a good amount of DMG when harrassing, if you micro them extremely well.
- SC2 has much more "jacks of all trades" regarding the above mentoined Aspects. There are more Units that have many Hitpoints, but do huge amounts of DMG to certain Units. In regards of Movement and Positioning, SC2 lacks in real advantages for good positioning, with better pathfinding and much less high-ground-advantage than in SC1, and harrass-type Units that are worth playing are very scarce. Hellion maybe, but it's so hard to go Mech with T, cuz freaking Factory has no good AntiAir and Tanks are less effective because defensive macro-play is not that good anymore.) Also, Units that would be good for harrassing but maybe not the best choice for big fights we're it's mostly about having the right counterunits, can't be played right, because it's way easier to play from way fewer bases than in SC1. Imagine trying to harrass a Protoss-player with your Vultures, If he plays from one base: You can't even go up the ramp! -.-°
AoE-Dmg Units that naturally attack in some sort of AoE, like Hellions, Archons or Firebats from SC1 require a great deal of Micro in terms of positioning them right etc. Tanks aren't that good of an example, because of their huge range, but at least noteworthy.
Non-targeting Attack: I can't think of a Unit that has sth like that (that isn't a spell like PsyStorm) in SC1 or SC2: Just an attack that does not target a Unit, but can just be fired at a position. I'll explain this with an example: - I think many of you have played Diablo2, were it's possible to hold "Shift" while attacking or casting a spell, to just send the spell/attack in this direction without havin to actually click on a enemy. Why not create a Unit like this, that keeps firing maybe artillery-shots that do AoE Dmg at target location until you tell them to stop or Attack another Area. If those Units would also deal Dmg to your Units, you really had to think ahead and remember microing them etc.
Charging Attacks: Like with the Voidray, but not a constant Ray, but maybe just every third hit does a bit more DMg, or AoE DMG or is in some way better. Nothing Random like critical hits, but something you could get an advantage out of if you control the unit right. And just with this option, it would give the player an opportunity to really play on a whole other level if those better attacks are timed right and targetting the right enemy-Unit. You could for example retreat your Units that have a "charged attack" and then attack with extremely high power all at once to do more DMG the in the first crucial moments of the battle. you could time the Attacks in a way, that you don't overkill Units, so that every charged attack is used on targets that actually can receive the full amount of DMG and wouldn't be dead, even if you attacked with one uncharged attack,
The possibilities of microing and strategies are incredible, without implementing some fancy spell and despite a much better AI.
On February 28 2010 21:13 Sephy69 wrote: Plus the new spellcaster for Zerg is garbage compared to the Defiler. Fungal growth is like a very gimped Psi Storm, Infested Terrans.. LOL wtf do you use these for other than maybe a distraction? The only ability that could be good is Neural Parasite but it's still gonna be hard to pull off.
This just goes to show how little you've actually played around with the infestor. Fungal Growth is Psi Storm + Maelstorm. Infester Terrans are a fantastic compliment to Fungal Growth when harassing workers (Which is real easy with the mobile burrow), and the recent changes to Neual parasite makes it quite a bit better than "could be good".
I really think if anything the protoss is the most dissapointing. The zerg at least have a bunch of different builds, roachs, muats, lings, broodlords, corruptors, ultras and infestors all make for different builds. While the protoss just seems to be sentry zealot stalker ball every match-up, with your choice of support tech: immortal/stalker/pheonix/templar.
the zerg are fine right now. the only problem they have is with detection (over seers is way to expensive with the gas) and with infestors. infestors are useless as shit. fungal growth isnt even enought to kill proves/scvs/drones and the area of effect it has is a joke. its 10 second mind control is only good in pvz when u want to take control of a ht for a few seconds and storm the rest of the hts and the toss army.
they also need to bring back lurkers. once they do zerg will be complete. so here are my suggestions to make zerg perfect imo.
decrease price tag on morphing a overlord to a overseer.
fix investors PLEASE fix them. there literally a joke unit. at the very least increase the dmg fungal growth does to 100 or 200 and increase its area of effect. also either change the parasite ability to last longer then 10 seconds/being permanent or replace it with something entirely diffrent.
bring back lurkers.
do these things and zerg will be flawless and less boring.
On February 28 2010 23:50 Ballistixz wrote: I don't know what to do with Infestors because I'm not that great of a StarCraft II player. Since I have trouble admitting my imperfections, I'm going to blame the unit that I'm having trouble with, instead. I hope Blizzard caters to my inadequacies.
Fixed.
Honestly, I have no idea how you can call a damage + immobalization ability bad, and how you can marginalize the potential abuses of a less-risky MC-like ability.
The thing I hate the most about the zerg in sc2 is the sound. It's a problem across the entire game but the zerg sounds are by far the worst of the bunch. There's no death sounds at all for half the units it feels like. That hydra sound that made it so satisfying to slaughter entire armies of them is gone. Drones make almost no noise when they die, when they had that sound that made you cringe when you heard it because it was the sound of your economy going down the drain. You loved and hated that sound depending on what side of it you were on.
Attack sounds are just as bad, muta attack is terrible, etc. I really hope they fix them, otherwise I hope someone just makes a sc2 sound mod that adds all the original sounds to sc1
On February 28 2010 23:50 Ballistixz wrote: I don't know what to do with Infestors because I'm not that great of a StarCraft II player. Since I have trouble admitting my imperfections, I'm going to blame the unit that I'm having trouble with, instead. I hope Blizzard caters to my inadequacies.
Fixed.
Honestly, I have no idea how you can call a damage + immobalization ability bad, and how you can marginalize the potential abuses of a less-risky MC-like ability.
try actually using it in a game and ull see what im talking about. it makes no diffrence at all especially against a medic marine build. the only uses infestors will have is in pvz. in zvz and tvz its useless as shit.
honestly stop talking about "potential" and actually use it. u will see it "potential" is extremely limited. again pvz infestors are good. zvz and tvz not so much...
if anything its best used to harass mineral lines with the spawn infested terran ability. if u go infestors in a zvz or tvz spawn infested terrans will be the only usefull thing u will be using. the other 2 abilities are a joke in those match ups and wasted energy. save up ur energy for infested terrans cuz again thats all ur gonna be using in zvz and tvz. or u MIGHT see the 10 second mincontrol in a zvz in the rare chance u get late game and u see ultras. but most zvz dont last that long and even if it did u wont be seeing ultras because roaches and hydras rape them.
I raped a bio army by NP'ing the medivacs. NP is like taking a unit out of the field for 10 seconds and you get to control it as a bonus given that you can keep the infestor alive.
On March 01 2010 05:08 lolaloc wrote: I raped a bio army by NP'ing the medivacs. NP is like taking a unit out of the field for 10 seconds and you get to control it as a bonus given that you can keep the infestor alive.
did his bio army have tanks and ravens to back up his M&M&M? if he did then any decent player would not let his entire fleet of medivacs get MCed lol. and even if u did tanks should have been enought dmg back up to push u back.
What if Infestors, instead of infested Terran, had this ability researchable at hive tech, that creates like a little cloud of some sort over a certain area, for a certain period of time, that blocked ranged attacks, and lowered ranged attacks that did over 10 damage to half damage? (*A*)
I'm actually a lil dissapointed on zerg's design. They removed the awesome sauce lurker and added some really bland boring units like the roach and baneling. The caster has nothing crazy new either, and the rest of the units are either old or are simply versions of the old ones. Also the ingame sounds are horrible for now.
On February 27 2010 00:20 HowardRoark wrote: This post is not about balance or about the hard counter nature of SC2 (which I am not sure I like at all), but about the units of Zerg.
To sum up the Zerg of SC2: They removed two of the most interesting units of the Zerg, Lurker and Scourge (which had a distinct feel and that was very unique to Zerg), and added the anonymous Roach, which is like a Hydra without air attack, and the Baneling. They cut the wings of the Queen and made her useful. They kept the Mutalisk, and changed the name and looks of the Devourer, that still however can evolve into the Guardian-like Brood Lord. They kept the Ultralisk, but renamed the Defiler to Infestor and downgraded its abilities.
For every change Blizzard did to the SC2 Zerg compared to the SC1 Zerg, the only one I find interesting was to cut the wings of the Scourge into Baneling.
I do think that SC2 needs new units and abilities, but compared to the SC2 Protoss which is very interesting, the SC2 Zerg units feels like an alpha build of SC1 (with flashy graphics indeed). The new unit composition of Zerg does not enhance the uniqueness of Zerg, rather diminishing it.
The SC2 Protoss however, while keeping most of the interesting units from SC1, added a lot of new interesting ones: the Collossi, the Immortal and the Stalker (instead of the Dragoon), the Mothership, the Sentry, the Void Ray, Warp Prism and added a lot of interesting fresh features to these units.
Also, certain parts of the Terran is IMHO rather bland ATM compared to the colorful SC1 "tripple entente" of the M&M+Firebat. SC2 Terran feels like you have 4 sizes of Marine, first the standard Marine, then the bigger Marauder, FlyingMarine Reaper and finally the MegaMarine Thor. However though, not as "uninteresting" as the current build of Zerg.
To sum it up: Protoss got a very interesting overhaul with a great mix of new and old units and abilities, but I do not feel Zerg got the same quality treatment from Blizzard. Sure, I can just play Protoss and care little about Zerg but in the long run I guess it will be rather boring only playing lots of PvP matches.
One ingredient why SC1 is such a great game is that every race was so geniously well crafted; and I wish Blizzard would treat the Zerg as they did treat the new Protoss. SC2 is not SC1, so new and fresh units is a must, aslong as they are interesting and provide uniqueness to each race. Removing the Lurker and adding the anon. Roach just because Blizzard feel they need to alter the unit composition of Zerg is not the right way to go.
What do you think of SC2 style Zerg?
Cry some more!
Reapers are just marines with jetpacks hellions are just vultures without mines and a flamethrower stalkers are just dragoons with blink mothership is just an arbiter but with some new abilities
^These are the things that make the game different, and why new exciting strategies will form. I have to agree with what a lot of people have said; Zerg still feel like 'a mass a bunch of units and keep ploughing into a wall untill you knock it down' race. The only thing i dislike about zerg is the sound effects
Wow, just posted something very similar on a youtube replay video about the Sentry by Husky. I'm not the only one who feels Zerg lack something and have been nerfed too much.
feature=youtube_gdata
In SC1, you have lurker/hydra guardian combos that work well together, add in some dark swarm or ensnare even better and fun to watch when it's done right. These kinds of combos really add depth and fun to the game. We need more of these combos to add deeper tactics in SC2.
Spells
One thing I've noticed from watching SC2 replays is that people aren't using spellcasting units. That gives me the feeling that they don't seem worth the cost in player's opinions.
Either they just haven't figured out how to use them effectively or they are just not cost effective or worth it. I think there's room for more interesting spells that will change the tactical play. Perhaps with an expansion. Spells seem lacking so far.
Dark Swarm: bring it back, the most original and best tactical spell from SC1 is taken out?
Confusion: Causes units to attack nearest unit, whether that be friend of foe.
Panic: Causes units to flee the battle.
Blind: causes units to miss their hits 50%
Stinking cloud: like d&d, percent chance units die upon entering
Grease/slime: area is covered with slime reducing movement of enemy units only. A good obstacle creator like force field.
Crippler worm: some unit spews worms that eat into the electronics, degrades attacks and defense and shields, like a level drain.
Current Units
Roach: I 'd like to see some kind of benefit of attacking with multiple unit types rather than just one type. I see zerg going mass roaches all the time. That will become boring if everyone just goes roaches all the time. Maybe the other units need to be buffed up to make them worthwhile?
Yes the name is unappealing, it's a blatant insectoid name yet I feel the zerg isn't exactly an insectoid race. Zerg I feel is something unique and I liked this uniqueness; Kind of a cross between reptile and insect. In SC2 I feel it's become an insectoid race. I think this name should change to something unique. Just about anything could be better; burrower, creeper, rogue, lingerer. Almost every replay I've seen, Zerg players are going for mass roaches. Kind of boring if all we'll see is mass roaches 80% of the time.
Unit Ideas Leviathan: Zerg need a new monstrous unit like the mothership. I'm thinking a large worm that travels underground in stealth like a Roach. Has these abilities:
Splash Damage: Something this big will attack multiple clumps of units at once.
Devour: (consumes clumps of up to 4 enemy units of small to medium size for a certain amount of mana, 100% chance)
Grapple/constrict: (binds clumps of land units like a python)
Tunnel: (damages target building by tunneling under it and undermining its foundation),
Tremor: (causes an earthquake type effect that damages enemy buildings and slows enemy units.
Summoner/Queen: Enhance the queen. I'm thinking a zerg summoner would be kick ass. A summoner that can summon mass units quickly at cost of mana.
Summon: Ok good she has summons. Summons broodlings, zergs, something as her summoned unit. However this unit cannot be consumed for mana or for very little mana; would be an endless supply of mana. Make the excuse that it's too small not enough mana energy.
Consume: Give the damn queen consume with a cool animation. You know it needs to happen. What's a zerg queen without consume? lol
Adrenal Aura/Vampiric Aura: Thinking of COTA from DOTA. The commander would increase unit attack speed, increase their attack damage, add a slow effect upon hit, add vampiric attack (life stealing attack given to units in queen's aura). Her Auras effect not just her broodlings but all friendly zerg units.
Mana Regen Upgrade: This is a static upgrade that increases the mana regeneration rate of the summoner/queen. This is in order to keep up effectively with summons.
Lurker: bring back the lurker. Why take out the best iconic units of Zerg and replace them with something called a Roach? Roaches should be called Creepers and should evolve into Lurkers and be able to travel underground and attack from underground with the upgrade. Lurker is a damn cool name too. Let's call the Roach 'Penetrator' in tribute to Jaedong. lol Burrower sounds cool too. Just about anything is better than Roach.
Hydra: just like the hydras from legend, can add a twist like burrows. Ok got it, upgrade leviathan to multiple heads. There we go. Can upgrade number of heads for multiple attacks.
Unit enhancements
Hydralisks: Poisonous spines. Once you're hit by the hydra it does residual damage after. Think Veno from DOTA. In fact DOTA is full of great ideas for spells, abilities.
Infestor: How about vary the time of Mind Control depending on unit size. An SCV can be controlled longer than say an Ultralisk. I think all units should be able to be controlled. Otherwise why bother getting the spell? Spells need to be powerful to make them worth it, to make them game breakers/changers when used effectively.
On February 27 2010 01:13 CharlieMurphy wrote: i always disliked roaches ever since I heard the name, it didn't sound zerglike at all.
The name is a fairly minor detail but I super agree with this. All the other units are made up words (*lisk, zerglings) or describe (more or less) what they do. None of them are named after generic terrestrial life forms. I mean what if other zerg units were called spiders, or preying mantises? Or scorpions? Just so generic and blah. As for how they play I unfortunately have no idea yet (from personal experience that is)
My 1st impression from my 1st game as zerg v crap ai was the insane number of larva I had, rather then a struggle to get larva the game changed to give zerg more of a zerg feel with a larger army size compared to smaller army sizes early on. This is such a huge thing.
But my gripe is that I feel no variety in getting towards late game. My main issue is the infester being so rubbish. P & T have Storm, Nuke & Siege respectively but Zerg has lost a huge part of there character in losing Swarm Cloud, Plague and Lurkers. Turning them into a smash my army into there army kind of feeling rather then use proper placement of lurkers and swarm and plague appropriately.
It 'might' be a good thing in that the feel of the race is being changed but I'd definitely like similar micro units to come in to replace the defiler and lurker in how they rewarded good micro/decision making otherwise it just feels like every game is rush to achieve critical mass and push through front and trade armies then remake mass faster then opponent and push again or back door with a sneaky nydus(very fun, my favorite change of Zerg in the game).
The variety with Zerg feels very limited even though there are things to do, I think Infester need to be completely reworked in some fashion(maybe the recent infested marines change is what was needed but I really liked Plague & Swarm, something with a similar feel rather then the terrible ensnare remake maybe).
Oh and for a super weapon/unit/ability I think similar to Terran Nuke Zerg to drop a Cerebrate or Overmind Bomb which spawns an mini cerebrate or mini overmind with tentacles which can roll around like a ball and burrow in to turn into tentancle lashing mode. Maybe something similar to a mini C'Thun from WoW would be imba cool. It could cost a hatchery or Hive or something and be ridiculously good.
We need to come up with some unit ideas at least for an expansion.
More Unit Ideas
The Mantis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hGuallLPcM
This unit could have cliff jumping abilities like the Terran Reapers. The attack could be a sudden melee strike like a Praying Mantis. The Mantis gets in range and then suddenly lurches forward quickly and grabs its prey, devouring it till its dead or someone else kills the Mantis. This attack grapples small units like marines, probes, SCVs, drones, etc. Just damages larger units. Probably Tier 2 unit. Pretty terrifying and zerg like.
The removal of lurkers logically makes sense, because the Baneling fills the slot that lurkers used to. They are a unit that can efficiently contain an infantry force such as Terran Bio or Zeal heavy toss. However, I can't help but think that Zerg need another unit to round out their army. Terrans and Toss have a lot of unit variety in SC2 whereas zerg always seem to have the same hydra/roach or muta/roach army comp.
Lurkers did more then just aoe it forces terran and toss to get detection thus leading to contains when zerg can only do with a mass of units instead of a few well placed lurkers. For Toss they would have to burn 2 storms on each lurker or get observers costing them gas and tech buildings which gave zerg time to expand more etc.
As it is it feels like a slug fest just throwing units at enemies rather then doing cute tactics other then trying to sneak nydus's in and thats gonna be irrelevent as soon as tosses+terrans line there borders with pylons & depots for vision. Or just leave the odd marine / stakers patroling edges.
Look, the Lurker was interesting because the only time it was useful was when it was completely immobile. Making able to MOVE as well completely defeats the need for complex maneuvers with Zerglings and/or Mutalisks because you could just MOVE the damn things while burrowed. For crying out loud, think before you post something.
On March 01 2010 14:58 LunarC wrote: Look, the Lurker was interesting because the only time it was useful was when it was completely immobile. Making able to MOVE as well completely defeats the need for complex maneuvers with Zerglings and/or Mutalisks because you could just MOVE the damn things while burrowed. For crying out loud, think before you post something.
lurkers are interesting because they attack while burrowed. for crying out loud, think before you flame people.
Also want to just point out that I disagree with having to get a lair before having any decent anti-air. This just makes aggressive tier one play that much less viable. Almost All-in depending on the map.
On March 01 2010 14:58 LunarC wrote: Look, the Lurker was interesting because the only time it was useful was when it was completely immobile. Making able to MOVE as well completely defeats the need for complex maneuvers with Zerglings and/or Mutalisks because you could just MOVE the damn things while burrowed. For crying out loud, think before you post something.
lurkers are interesting because they attack while burrowed. for crying out loud, think before you flame people.
No. Lurkers are interesting because burrowing forces them to be immobile. For Crying Out Loud, Think Before You Retaliate.
Think about it this way. You are suggesting Blizzard implement moving "stop" Lurkers. Moving. Stop Lurkers.
For whatever it's worth, I'm actually playing the beta and I love zerg. The nydus worms are amazing and feel incredibly "zerg", and the ability to control HUGE groups of zerglings is incredibly satisfying, and just overall I'm very pleased.
On March 01 2010 14:58 LunarC wrote: Look, the Lurker was interesting because the only time it was useful was when it was completely immobile. Making able to MOVE as well completely defeats the need for complex maneuvers with Zerglings and/or Mutalisks because you could just MOVE the damn things while burrowed. For crying out loud, think before you post something.
lurkers are interesting because they attack while burrowed. for crying out loud, think before you flame people.
Lurkers are interesting in a "just looking, thats cool" perspective because they attack when burrowed. Lurkers are interesting from a GAMEPLAY perspective because of their immobility and AOE.
I also think the current Ultralisk is interesting. In the "just looking, thats cool" perspective because they rape things when A-moved. Gameplay-wise they destroy a need for support spells like the ones defilers had, thus making the game a bit simpler than it used to be.
I think it's true that the Zerg seem the most "untouched" in SC1. It almost feels like a re-make of the Zerg rather than a sequel to them.
However, I think part of the problem is the nature of the Zerg. The Zerg were always about a large mass of staple units, the uniqueness came from the production abilities. Whereas Terran and Protoss were always more focused on unit abilities. You "go" Mutas, Lurkers, Zerglings, Ultras, Hydras, or whatever. And while you can "go" Zealots or M&M, you don't "go" Tanks, Reavers, Wraiths, etc etc.
With the ability to mass produce units, specialist units are generally inefficient in comparison. And why something as insane as the Defiler/Scourge was needed to be a worthwhile specialist. Spending the money to build the enabling building and then upgrade it is very high when you realize that you could have spent money on your base units and improved your army across the board.
This is different than Protoss/Terrans because they have more limited production capabilites. They can't pump units the same way the Zerg can so if they force their resources in that direction they'll simply hit a bottleneck.
This means they have more room in their strategy for divergent tactics. On top of their base army, there is always some free resources that need to be spent but have no easy direction. Whereas with the Zerg, in all likelihood you are building more of the same units, building more buildings, or upgrading your same units.
So while I agree with the OP, I am not sure you can expect the same from the Zerg as you do the other races. I would much prefer a greater expansion on the Nydus and Overseer. They are in a closer position to be the kind of impact force-multiplier that a Defiler would have. I would rather they expand on those two units than try to force players to use units that have marginal use.
As a Protoss player, I enjoyed PvZ much more in SC1 than SC2. Both the metagame and gameplay fighting against lurker and scourge (or potential of them) was more engaging than roach and t2 hydra w/o lurker. Right now, the roach metagame doesn't feel as good.
The game does play differently, which is fine and great in some cases (like being able to have more viable build orders without FE as Protoss in PvZ), but I'm not sure I'd want a different experience if it isn't on the same quality level as lurker / scourge.
Imo Zerg needs the original defiler back along with the original Lurker, change the roach around givign it less damage to anything except for light units. Weaken Hydras a tiny bit but make them cost 1 food. Buff zerglings a little bit and increase their movespeed/attack speed but lower damage if its too much.
i have yet to see ultralisks used much nor have I used them myself but I haven't been playing much zerg. however, they seem to of been turned into a superunit which is not what the zerg is about. zerg is 'the swarm' for a reason. imo, weaken the ultra and make it more producible.
edit:
i want to see zerglings have the ability to climb on a building and 'swarm' it, even if its only aesthetic. it'd be cool ;D
Infestors look too fat and clumsy to be a Zerg unit. All of the Zerg units are sleek and vicious looking in SC1, but the Infestor looks like a bloated caterpillar.
Jesus Howard, haw did you manage to get such a short-sided opinion. Seriously I'm sorry but you're looking at things waaaay to ...darkly and you fail to see how interesting some of the new units are and how many interesting strategies they can produce. Race unit composition is still not absolutely certainly final but please try stuff don't just dismiss.
The OP is so right, there is no new incentive to use zerg. Toss gets Colussus, Immortals, and sentries. Terran gets Thors and Vikings, and we get...roaches. Great. HDstarcraft doesnt even use zerg anymore.
Evolved from: Queen (Morph the Queen into an offensive attacking unit)
Attack: Attacks ground and fliers
Summon Broodlings: Summons 4 broodlings. Should be easy and fast to build a large army of weak summons that can be buffed to make them strong. Strength in numbers.
Summon Changeling: Summons 1 or 2 changelings.
Vampiric Aura: Friendly units gain life stealing attack.
Adrenal Aura: Friendly units move and attack faster.
Plague: as in BW
Consume: Can consume any small to medium unit for mana in proportion to size of creature (small creatures give less mana than medium creatures). Has a short cooldown.
Devour: Can devour enemy units for HP. Only small and medium can be targeted. Does not require mana, but has a cooldown of a certain time period.
Mana Regen Upgrade: Static upgrade that increases the regeneration of the Matriarch's mana.
Proposed Current Unit Changes
Infestor:
Move while burrowed: Not sure if they have this already, hard to tell exactly from the description. If yes, keep this.
Cast while burrowed: Just like ghosts can cast while cloaked, Infestors should be able to cast while burrowed.
Fungal Growth: Pretty much Ensnare, keep this.
Slime: Reduces movement of enemy troops in the area. Like a nerfed force field.
Dark Swarm:
Consume:
Summon Infested Terran: Remove. Where the hell does he get a terran from, regurgitation? lol Just seems so cheesy and silly to me. At least make it some zerg creature or scrap this altogether and leave the summoning to a unit geared toward summoning like the proposed Matriarch.
Defiler:
Make the defiler the mind controller of the Zerg.
Mind Control: Keep this ability, increase range, allow casting while burrowed/cloaked. This allows you more than one cast.
Confusion: Causes enemies to attack friend or foe, whichever is closest.
Panic: Causes the group of enemies to flee the battle.
Cast While Burrowed:
Move While Burrowed:
Consume:
Ultralisk
Stun: attacks stun the enemy preventing them from escaping (50% chance).
Zerg look and sound like dinosaurs mixed with insects-NOT check
Basically I love the gameplay, the graphics are gonna force me to buy a new computer, and Terran and Protoss are sweet, they have cool units that are fun to play with.
SO I LIKE THE GAME...but the Zerg makeover is a turn for the worse. Basically sound more like bugs than dinosaurs. A good example of what Zerg should sound like are the Zerg from SC1.
Mutas sounded like dragons, and when they attack they scream and give you the feeling that you are being swarmed. Now they sound like bats. As for the unit model it looks cool except for the end where the glave wurm comes out, that part is a little too bulky and is reminiscent of the old SC2 siege tank design. Slim it down to look more like the Muta in the "hell its about time" video that flies in HOT.
Hydralisks look super cool but they lost their attack. Before they looked like they were forcing the stuff out at High velocity, and now they shoot giant spikes that arc? Spikes soo slow that they follow a noticeably parabolic path? Solution....Make their attack look like the old one, but make it 3D....done.
Zerglings look cool except now metabolic increase means giant wings to make them look like ant drones. Not cool, loose the wings, metabolic speed increase, is supposed to be something like vam(wasp speed(speed the drug)). Or the same as someone drinking a Monster Energy. So again loose the wings.
Now those things FAIL in comparison to how bad the new zerg voice is.
YOU REQUIRE MORE MEINERAAALLLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!
THAT voice. Its super lame and doesnt even sound like zerg at all. Just sounds like some woman in a studio failing epically. The new zerg voice has got to go, cummon it doesnt even have any base(I mean sound base).
So basically I think we should take a long look at the zerg, cause in their current state they just aren't fun to play, and I really liked Zerg.
What do you guys think? (I you are going to say "its still in BETA" dont bother. heres why...the whole point of BETA is to get FEEDBACK so that they can make changes to a game BEFORE it ships. So this is my feedback, if you dont agree and you like the lame zerg thats fine, I guess Blizz made the game for you)
Zerg look and sound like dinosaurs mixed with insects-NOT check
Basically I love the gameplay, the graphics are gonna force me to buy a new computer, and Terran and Protoss are sweet, they have cool units that are fun to play with.
SO I LIKE THE GAME...but the Zerg makeover is a turn for the worse. Basically sound more like bugs than dinosaurs. A good example of what Zerg should sound like are the Zerg from SC1.
Mutas sounded like dragons, and when they attack they scream and give you the feeling that you are being swarmed. Now they sound like bats. As for the unit model it looks cool except for the end where the glave wurm comes out, that part is a little too bulky and is reminiscent of the old SC2 siege tank design. Slim it down to look more like the Muta in the "hell its about time" video that flies in HOT.
Hydralisks look super cool but they lost their attack. Before they looked like they were forcing the stuff out at High velocity, and now they shoot giant spikes that arc? Spikes soo slow that they follow a noticeably parabolic path? Solution....Make their attack look like the old one, but make it 3D....done.
Zerglings look cool except now metabolic increase means giant wings to make them look like ant drones. Not cool, loose the wings, metabolic speed increase, is supposed to be something like vam(wasp speed(speed the drug)). Or the same as someone drinking a Monster Energy. So again loose the wings.
Now those things FAIL in comparison to how bad the new zerg voice is.
YOU REQUIRE MORE MEINERAAALLLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!
THAT voice. Its super lame and doesnt even sound like zerg at all. Just sounds like some woman in a studio failing epically. The new zerg voice has got to go, cummon it doesnt even have any base(I mean sound base).
So basically I think we should take a long look at the zerg, cause in their current state they just aren't fun to play, and I really liked Zerg.
What do you guys think? (I you are going to say "its still in BETA" dont bother. heres why...the whole point of BETA is to get FEEDBACK so that they can make changes to a game BEFORE it ships. So this is my feedback, if you dont agree and you like the lame zerg thats fine, I guess Blizz made the game for you)
really you're going to bump this thread that talks about major gameplay issues and just complain and shit like art style and sound effects?
I hate how Zerg feels like it has very few "paths" it can go midgame. Its always either roach hydra or muta harrass (for the most part). If Lurkers were added back into the game zerg would have many more options in mid/late game.
i agree protoss made the best transition to sc2 just for pure 'badass factor'. the new queen is awesome though, banelings are scary as hell, infestor looks cooler than the defiler in some ways even though it's less powerful, new ultralisk >>>>> old ultralisk, swarming zerglings look so much cooler, and the roach seems kinda boring at first but the more i see it in games the more it's like it was always there. and i don't think the roach is 'hydralisk without air attack.' it also has crappy range and inferior dps. the point of the roach is that it's hearty and difficult to kill, by comparison to pretty much everything else zerg has up until the ultralisk, which i think is intended to give zerg more flexibility to transition between tech. and transitioning between tech easily is very appropriate to zerg i think. i AM glad they nerfed it's armor. i can already see that it's easier to respond to mass roach and to use them effectively late game will start to require either better micro and the move-while-burrowed upgrade, or a more balanced army. i dunno if it'll pan out that way in the long run but it just seems to me like that's what blizzard is intending.
all that said, zerg did get the short end of the stick. maybe that's cos they got balanced into the game last. my prediction is that they'll get most of their 'badass factor' from the first expansion - if the lurker isn't in the retail release of WoL it'll be in the expansion, the queen will get at least one ability/upgrade to make it more multi-purposed, and there will be at least one brand new unit that has more of that cool factor.
EPT
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