EPTBeta Balance Update #12 - Page 19
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 19 2013 16:59 blade55555 wrote: If you think hatch tech burrow is imbalanced you really have a lot to look at. If it's because it "forces out detection earlier" well fuck what do you think we have to do when you protosses go 1 base DT or 2 base DT? We are forced to get detection earlier or well we die. The complaining is just so so silly, terran can force zerg detection early, protoss can, and zerg can't. Zerg now can and "OMG SO IMBALANCED". Yeah no not even close. 1. How does Protoss force detection? DTs? Not really that early ... unless you REALLY want to risk it, but it should be easy enough to scout. Just scout the gas with your Overlord and then its either DTs or air if the Protoss has used a lot of it and in both cases you could use Spores ... 2. Do you really think that those Terrans and Protoss are happy about the junk they get and yet you "attack them". The Widow Mine doesnt work well enough to be worth having (except in the early game) and the DT is handled easily as well once you do have detection (which is just a few minerals for a Spore Crawler at your entrance). Zerg have had to build NOTHING in their own defense while Protoss and Terrans have had to invest in buildings to keep themselves safe; its time for Zerg to be forced to do the same really to even up the scale a bit as well, but burrow early really gives them too much defense against Hellions, Marines and Zealots ... 3. Did you ever stop and think about the simple ZERG vs ZERG matchup and how it is affected by an early burrow? How about burrowed Banelings on the entrance to your opponents base? Are they there or not? Will you risk running your Zerglings across a potential minefield and lose the game after a few minutes OR will you bunker up yourself as well and provide us with a boring game to watch? Thats the real consequence of early burrow ... ZvZ gets really terrible. So its better to not assume "he is playing race X" when someone complains about race Y ... better not assume anything at all. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Banelings on the entrance to your opponents base? Are they there or not? Will you risk running your Zerglings across a potential minefield and lose the game after a few minutes Zerg will have creep at his ramp and spore isn't hard to do. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 19 2013 18:06 Existor wrote: Zerg will have creep at his ramp and spore isn't hard to do. I didnt mean you putting Banelings on the ramp of your opponent, but what happens if your opponent already did it himself? How are you going to attack him then? You wont be able to check that because the Overseer requires an upgrade for the Hatchery and thus a lot of gas and time ... so basically early ZvZ with Zerglings is now dead. You basically get burrow (and a handful of Banelings) right after the first Queen and then Drone up hard behind a screen of burrowed Banelings ... bunkering Zerg style. The beauty is that it works against early Terran ground aggression really well and Protoss basically have to stick to Stalkers or air ... | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
How are you going to attack him then? If you see baneling nest at his base, attack with roaches then? Zerg must burrow 8 banelings to kill roach. Or he can make an ambush with zerglings. But if you buy +1 range attack, no matter how zerglings reached you - via burrow ambush or just a-move from different sides, you will still win that battle, because you'll be able to 2-shot zerglings. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 19 2013 18:01 Rabiator wrote: 1. How does Protoss force detection? DTs? Not really that early ... unless you REALLY want to risk it, but it should be easy enough to scout. Just scout the gas with your Overlord and then its either DTs or air if the Protoss has used a lot of it and in both cases you could use Spores ... 2. Do you really think that those Terrans and Protoss are happy about the junk they get and yet you "attack them". The Widow Mine doesnt work well enough to be worth having (except in the early game) and the DT is handled easily as well once you do have detection (which is just a few minerals for a Spore Crawler at your entrance). Zerg have had to build NOTHING in their own defense while Protoss and Terrans have had to invest in buildings to keep themselves safe; its time for Zerg to be forced to do the same really to even up the scale a bit as well, but burrow early really gives them too much defense against Hellions, Marines and Zealots ... 3. Did you ever stop and think about the simple ZERG vs ZERG matchup and how it is affected by an early burrow? How about burrowed Banelings on the entrance to your opponents base? Are they there or not? Will you risk running your Zerglings across a potential minefield and lose the game after a few minutes OR will you bunker up yourself as well and provide us with a boring game to watch? Thats the real consequence of early burrow ... ZvZ gets really terrible. So its better to not assume "he is playing race X" when someone complains about race Y ... better not assume anything at all. 1. DT tech has been made 100gas cheaper. And there are many ways to go DT. And the gas is not telling a lot. Any Protoss tech needs a ton of gas (blink, DT, Robo, Stargate). Just massing sentries needs a ton of gas. Basically any build that is FFE into 3 or 4 rather fast gas is standard in PvZ and NOT taking 3-4 gas smells fishy. 2. Last time I checked "T-Funk" Thorzain was top5 on HotS ladder with mass widow mine bio play vs zerg. Also your arguement just stinks, because the "junk" Protoss and Terrans get and that you compare to burrow is something new. Burrow is something old that gets a small buff comparable to the Dark Shrine buff, and the Reaper buffs. 3. Yeah. If you invest 100 extra gas into defense in ZvZ, whether it is for burrow or for 4more banelings or some roaches I gladly just take the advantage and run with it. But yeah, I'm pretty sure double gas baneling+zergling speed+burrow builds of 20drones will start to pop up everywhere. Because people prefer to flip coins defensively instead of building more units. *sarcasm* | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 19 2013 18:41 Existor wrote: If you see baneling nest at his base, attack with roaches then? Zerg must burrow 8 banelings to kill roach. Or he can make an ambush with zerglings. But if you buy +1 range attack, no matter how zerglings reached you - via burrow ambush or just a-move from different sides, you will still win that battle, because you'll be able to 2-shot zerglings. The big thing is that Zerglings are basically useless now to attack a Zerg base in the early game ... thats the point I am trying to make ... and thus the available options to choose from have been reduced by one. | ||
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Millet
Sweden143 Posts
On January 19 2013 00:16 summerloud wrote: why robo play? stargate is already standard and deals with roaches much better, and also gives you detection Already said I forgot about that. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 19 2013 18:47 Big J wrote: 1. DT tech has been made 100gas cheaper. And there are many ways to go DT. And the gas is not telling a lot. Any Protoss tech needs a ton of gas (blink, DT, Robo, Stargate). Just massing sentries needs a ton of gas. Basically any build that is FFE into 3 or 4 rather fast gas is standard in PvZ and NOT taking 3-4 gas smells fishy. 2. Last time I checked "T-Funk" Thorzain was top5 on HotS ladder with mass widow mine bio play vs zerg. Also your arguement just stinks, because the "junk" Protoss and Terrans get and that you compare to burrow is something new. Burrow is something old that gets a small buff comparable to the Dark Shrine buff, and the Reaper buffs. 3. Yeah. If you invest 100 extra gas into defense in ZvZ, whether it is for burrow or for 4more banelings or some roaches I gladly just take the advantage and run with it. But yeah, I'm pretty sure double gas baneling+zergling speed+burrow builds of 20drones will start to pop up everywhere. Because people prefer to flip coins defensively instead of building more units. *sarcasm* 1. My comment was more about "DT rushes", but if you do normal Protoss development they wont be in your base. 2. Since when has any Terran rush-strategy been not nerfed by Blizzard? Reapers and bunker rushes both got nerfed really heavily. So that leaves us with the usefulness of the Widow Mine in an army ... and that practically doesnt exist. Try to combine it with bio and you are playing russian roulette with your bio ball; try to combine it with mech and you have increased your "set up unit numbers" by a lot more while not actually getting any consistent damage ... just some "oooohhh ... aaaahhh ... Spike damage" kinda similar to Banelings and they arent a well designed unit either. 3. Early burrow has the potential to kill off Zergling aggression in a ZvZ and that is a shame, because "very early Zergling army dances" were about the only part where you could really see a skill difference between two players. | ||
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bankobauss
204 Posts
1) it will NEVER stop your natural if your playing standard toss or terran 2) it will NEVER stop your third at a timing where zerg didnt ALREADY have burrow in WoL. okay fine, maybe slightly slightly there is a chance of this happening, but in that case zerg spent 100/100 to slightly delay your third for a few seconds (lol). protoss should already have an observer, terran just scan 3) it doesnt stop aggression against zerg, because i dont know if youve been watching WoL recently but "early aggression against zerg" pretty much does not exist.. dont know about you but literally every TvZ game in WoL in the last 6months in the pro scene has involved literally 100% of the combat happening after the zerg already has burrow and 3bases. The only kind of action that occurs before that is maybe some hellions and banshees running around the map doing some light pressure, and if zerg burrows his drones to live against the hellions thats a dumb idea because 1scan and thats a ton of roasted drones, but normally in 99% of WoL games the hellions would NEVER even be able to actually fight the drones and they would end up fighting queens. And zergs will not "make burrowed lings and ambush the hellions" because in WoL they spent their larva during this time on drones and in HotS they will also spend it on drones, if the zerg makes lings instead of drones with that early larva then he already has lost that early fight. I guess the only true difference in early TvZ now is the queens have burrow lol. So i guess basically the only thing this changes does is it now the early game is even more boring because the queens will be burrowing against the hellion/banshee harassment now. never seen a hots PvZ game (or even WoL for that matter) where the protoss doesnt do his first major attack after he has an observer this burrow change pretty much changes absolutely nothing. i garuntee no zerg will be wasting 100gas on it so early. I literally provides ZERO possibilities or advantages for the zerg to be worth the 100gas so early compared to making drones/hatcheries and using your 1gas for speed/lair. If the zerg makes a 2nd gas to get the faster burrow he already lost and is playing from behind since his faster burrow just gave him the nice benefit of having a snowballing weaker economy for the rest of the game EDIT: oops, lol. I guess this change does effect ZvZ. funny enough, its the only matchup that changes due to hatchery burrow | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On January 19 2013 19:02 Rabiator wrote: 3. Early burrow has the potential to kill off Zergling aggression in a ZvZ and that is a shame, because "very early Zergling army dances" were about the only part where you could really see a skill difference between two players. The only part? Really? Yeah, I mean totally, if he out-micros me, and kill few Zerglings more, while losing few Banelings less, and I just crush him with superior engagements and macro later in the game, yeah I guess he really is better than me. Your comments just boggle my mind sometimes... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 19 2013 19:02 Rabiator wrote: 1. My comment was more about "DT rushes", but if you do normal Protoss development they wont be in your base. 2. Since when has any Terran rush-strategy been not nerfed by Blizzard? Reapers and bunker rushes both got nerfed really heavily. So that leaves us with the usefulness of the Widow Mine in an army ... and that practically doesnt exist. Try to combine it with bio and you are playing russian roulette with your bio ball; try to combine it with mech and you have increased your "set up unit numbers" by a lot more while not actually getting any consistent damage ... just some "oooohhh ... aaaahhh ... Spike damage" kinda similar to Banelings and they arent a well designed unit either. 3. Early burrow has the potential to kill off Zergling aggression in a ZvZ and that is a shame, because "very early Zergling army dances" were about the only part where you could really see a skill difference between two players. 1.) Well, you also won't see a lot of 1base rushes because of the earlier burrow... 2.) not really a lot to comment on as the first part as there is no arguement in it... Else: Widow mine is being used lategame with bio and mech. From way better players than you and I am, at least in 1-2matchups. 3.) Tell me a build order that does that. I'm simply failing to see it working out: -) Gasless pool/hatch or hatch/pool opening into 1gas? The standard right now is speed follow up and even that sometimes hits too late defensively and people go for banelings first instead. -) 1base 1gas opening? You still have to wait for your queen to start burrow. And then you wait 100seconds. Then you have burrow without anything else. You still need units that profit from it, so you cannot pull out of the gas with a one base opening == economical death. Sorry, I just don't see a build order that works out and gives you queens+baneling nest+banelings+burrow+zergling speed in time to hold something off and is not your economical death in ZvZ. Maybe if you skip the zergling speed or 2gas you could create something. And maybe against delayed attacks. But you are still relying on your opponent to run over your landmines, instead of just having 3-4banelings more... I mean, those are not rather slow units like marines that are hard to hit and that shoot your banelings from afar. Those are highspeed zerglings that need to close the distance to you anyways you want to blow up. I doubt that burrow in ZvZ defensively is viable from an economical/BO-wise point of view. And even if, I doubt it's usefulness to go BLINDLY 100seconds before you need it for it, when ZvZ early defense right now means that you have 3banelings and the option to invest more into them if you need it. | ||
immanentblue
Denmark110 Posts
On January 19 2013 18:14 Rabiator wrote: I didnt mean you putting Banelings on the ramp of your opponent, but what happens if your opponent already did it himself? How are you going to attack him then? You wont be able to check that because the Overseer requires an upgrade for the Hatchery and thus a lot of gas and time ... so basically early ZvZ with Zerglings is now dead. You basically get burrow (and a handful of Banelings) right after the first Queen and then Drone up hard behind a screen of burrowed Banelings ... bunkering Zerg style. The beauty is that it works against early Terran ground aggression really well and Protoss basically have to stick to Stalkers or air ... For me it just seems really to open up the zvz matchup... I dont think burrow is gonna be the strongest opening, but its gonna be equal to others, and force out fast lair builds and such... By going fast burrow into baneling, you sac ling speed, and if your opponent sniffs that out (should be easy with proper scouting) he can go fast lair and just attack you with an overseer... Burrow=100 gas ~ lair=100 gas... But opening burrow gives you a lot of other little advatages, like burrowing your drones and such... And makes roaches really strong.. I like it | ||
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
On January 19 2013 19:42 immanentblue wrote: For me it just seems really to open up the zvz matchup... I dont think burrow is gonna be the strongest opening, but its gonna be equal to others, and force out fast lair builds and such... By going fast burrow into baneling, you sac ling speed, and if your opponent sniffs that out (should be easy with proper scouting) he can go fast lair and just attack you with an overseer... Burrow=100 gas ~ lair=100 gas... But opening burrow gives you a lot of other little advatages, like burrowing your drones and such... And makes roaches really strong.. I like it But you can't see what he is researching right? I think it is difficult to know if he is going speed early or not. They use their gas differently. The worst thing I experience. Is when a group of lings get speed as they run into me. | ||
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sweetbabyjesus
Denmark168 Posts
On January 20 2013 00:31 KAB00000000M wrote: But you can't see what he is researching right? I think it is difficult to know if he is going speed early or not. They use their gas differently. The worst thing I experience. Is when a group of lings get speed as they run into me. You can actually. If he is researching speed then the spawning pool is sturred. If he is making banes then there is a baneling nest. If roaches, roach den (or whatever it's called). If lair, the hatchery is morphing. Following that logic, assuming that it is a good player who doesn't let his gas build up, if it is non of these then he must be getting burrow. Unless he get's multiple of them (Banes/roaches and burrow go hand in hand imo), in which case it is harder to know but you can generally guess it from the gas count he has mined. If he's mined a lot of gas and has little to show for it then he must be researching burrow, or stockpiling gas for a big baneling bust. | ||
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
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gosublade
632 Posts
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Papulatus
United States669 Posts
Only good thing is 4 supply VR. now zerg has a slight chance in late game ZvP | ||
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