We will be bringing the beta down at 3:00 p.m. PST this afternoon to make the balance changes listed below. Thanks again for all the great feedback you've provided while testing Heart of the Swarm. We hope to see you testing these changes and sharing your input soon!
Terran
Reaper
Health increased from 50 to 60.
Protoss
Void Ray
Supply cost increased from 3 to 4.
Activating the Prismatic Alignment ability now causes a timer to display over the Void Ray for the duration of the effect.
Zerg
Hatchery
The Evolve Burrow upgrade requirement has been moved to the Hatchery.
What follows is a breakdown of our reasoning behind recent balance changes in the StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm beta.
Void Ray We haven't seen many players microing against the Void Ray's Prismatic Alignment ability, even among the highest rated players in the HotS Beta. In order to encourage more precise micro against this ability, we've decided to display a timer on the Void Ray for the duration of the effect. We're hoping to see players pull their units back against Prismatic Alignment, and re-engage once the ability is on cooldown.
We also felt that Void Rays were too strong in the late game for their supply cost, so we decided to increase this requirement by 1.
Reaper We think that Reapers are headed in the right direction. Players are really forced to utilize the Reaper’s passive healing ability between attacks in order to maximize the unit’s efficiency. We'd like to further promote this type of play by slightly increasing Reaper health.
Burrow We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. Furthermore, the initial feedback from players has been very positive regarding this change, and we've already seen Zerg internal testers pull off some neat tricks using Burrow.
As always, thank you very much for your input. Please take time to playtest these changes before providing us with more feedback.
I really hate all these high supply units, wish it was all reduced.
I mean like the half or -2 all the high ones, it just seems to make the armies more smaller and thus more compact. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about and reducing high unit supply would disrupt the game. Hohum~
What follows is a breakdown of our reasoning behind recent balance changes in the StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm beta.
Void Ray We haven't seen many players microing against the Void Ray's Prismatic Alignment ability, even among the highest rated players in the HotS Beta. In order to encourage more precise micro against this ability, we've decided to display a timer on the Void Ray for the duration of the effect. We're hoping to see players pull their units back against Prismatic Alignment, and re-engage once the ability is on cooldown.
We also felt that Void Rays were too strong in the late game for their supply cost, so we decided to increase this requirement by 1.
Reaper We think that Reapers are headed in the right direction. Players are really forced to utilize the Reaper’s passive healing ability between attacks in order to maximize the unit’s efficiency. We'd like to further promote this type of play by slightly increasing Reaper health.
Burrow We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. Furthermore, the initial feedback from players has been very positive regarding this change, and we've already seen Zerg internal testers pull off some neat tricks using Burrow.
As always, thank you very much for your input. Please take time to playtest these changes before providing us with more feedback.
the reaper is gonna be the bunker, as a non zerg i actually like the burrow move to hatchery, that might get some funny stuff out there for zergs. dont feel the voidray nerf, should be less dmg or shorter duration of the activating thingy imo
What follows is a breakdown of our reasoning behind recent balance changes in the StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm beta.
Void Ray We haven't seen many players microing against the Void Ray's Prismatic Alignment ability, even among the highest rated players in the HotS Beta. In order to encourage more precise micro against this ability, we've decided to display a timer on the Void Ray for the duration of the effect. We're hoping to see players pull their units back against Prismatic Alignment, and re-engage once the ability is on cooldown.
We also felt that Void Rays were too strong in the late game for their supply cost, so we decided to increase this requirement by 1.
Reaper We think that Reapers are headed in the right direction. Players are really forced to utilize the Reaper’s passive healing ability between attacks in order to maximize the unit’s efficiency. We'd like to further promote this type of play by slightly increasing Reaper health.
Burrow We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. Furthermore, the initial feedback from players has been very positive regarding this change, and we've already seen Zerg internal testers pull off some neat tricks using Burrow.
As always, thank you very much for your input. Please take time to playtest these changes before providing us with more feedback.
I really wish that they would address problems with terran late game instead of forcing us into heavily aggressive early game options. Players get good at holding this stuff as the game goes on (as we're currently seeing in WOL) and it's not fun at all to have a severely diminished late game and being unable to follow economic style strategies because the opposing players late game armies are just much better.
I like the reaper change here, I guess. I really want them to add the anti-building attack back in, though, after an upgrade or something. I think that would give them the later-game utility they need.
Void Ray changes seem reasonable although I don't really like the unit as it is right now... It kinda seems like a bad design. It's strength is it's ability to fight straight-up, but it's also an air unit and has very little micro. But maybe if the damage cycles of it's ability are made the emphasis, and it becomes more niche (supply cost increase might help there,) then it could become a unit used to break positions or gain control of a spot for a brief period of time, encouraging the opponent to retreat temporarily.
Both the Reaper and the Void Ray seems like they're both going in a direction that will be successful.
On January 18 2013 07:07 [17]Purple wrote: I really hate all these high supply units, wish it was all reduced.
I mean like the half or -2 all the high ones, it just seems to make the armies more smaller and thus more compact. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about and reducing high unit supply would disrupt the game. Hohum~
There is major supply inflation in SC2, but the real problem is with SC2 economy. It is way too easy to max out, so you have periods of stalemates where both players are posturing while not really macroing, even if they are expanding and whatnot. Truly boring and not good for the game.
Thank god for Void Ray nerf, but I worry they will still shred though stalkers to quickly, invalidating anything but stargate PvP
My other concern is...this is now the third unit out of the stargate with a relatively steep supply cost. Stargate play in the other matchups might be really adversely affected by this change.
They are making some really weird stuff with void ray... It feels if they'll continue like this, the void rays will just end up being exactly like in WoL.
Reaper change won't effect them too much... Void ray change... Its not really the improved micro.. its just stalling the fight... Also, I've got a feeling burrow at hatchery will be super OP ... burrowed drone at your natural expansion..
I like the burrow change. Reaper change is meh have to see it in action... Increasing the Voidray supply wtf? didn't really know they were being that big of a problem... guess I should have been using them more xD
Maybe burrow will be used more often now. I'm surprised that there are still many pro zerg players that don't get burrow. Granted, I'm no pro, but there really isn't many good reasons not to get burrow, especially considering how cheap it is
I agree that these changes seem reasonable but I'm not sure what they are going for as far as "microing" against voidrays. I don't find running away to be particularly interesting micro but I suppose the timer isn't hurting anything.
On January 18 2013 07:26 Hollandrock wrote: Wow .. Those changes really suck...
Reaper change won't effect them too much... Void ray change... Its not really the improved micro.. its just stalling the fight... Also, I've got a feeling burrow at hatchery will be super OP ... burrowed drone at your natural expansion..
Haha you know you still have to mine the gas and research burrow right? When do you usually take your natural :D?
I feel that the burrow change is good for Zerg. Right now in hots, Zerg does not enough map presence options. Sure, there are overlords and creep, but those things can easily be taken down by the likes of marines or stalkers.
Also, for burrowed banelings, Zerg finally has an option to surprise Terran with early traps just like how Terran can Widow Mine easily. Can’t wait to rush up to the opponent’s ramp and burrow some banes there in the narrow ramp choke. If the Terran happens to see it, well they just wasted a scan or possibly some mining time building an engineering bay and turrets or Ravens. I feel this will finally give Zerg some breathing room in the early game.
The only bad think I can see is that the Void Ray changes is not severe enough. For what it does now, it should be about 5 supply. I’d say Void Rays in hots are stronger than infestors were in wol about 2 months ago before the egg HP reduction and infested Terran weapon/armour nerf.
The Reaper thing does not do shit though. Yea, 10HP will totally help. It only does like 8 damage so it has the same damage and range as a queen does.
On January 18 2013 07:26 Hollandrock wrote: Also, I've got a feeling burrow at hatchery will be super OP ... burrowed drone at your natural expansion..
i hope this happens so literally any all-in off one-base will kill them
I don't think we'll see a huge amount of use of hatch tech burrow; I think it'll be relegated to roach allins. That said I'd like to be proven wrong and I look forward to seeing what people can come up with.
On January 18 2013 07:13 Talack wrote: I really wish that they would address problems with terran late game instead of forcing us into heavily aggressive early game options. Players get good at holding this stuff as the game goes on (as we're currently seeing in WOL) and it's not fun at all to have a severely diminished late game and being unable to follow economic style strategies because the opposing players late game armies are just much better.
Raven, Thor Air attack&lack of energy, merged upgrades, no? They do adres it, slowly.
With all the high supply costs really reminds me of my thread about the 300 supply cap... So few units for a starcraft game with these high cost units really... Even Zerg has more 2 supply units than anything...
On January 18 2013 07:26 Hollandrock wrote: Wow .. Those changes really suck...
Reaper change won't effect them too much... Void ray change... Its not really the improved micro.. its just stalling the fight... Also, I've got a feeling burrow at hatchery will be super OP ... burrowed drone at your natural expansion..
burrowed drone won't happen, at least not before you expand to your natural. burrow still costs tons of gas, it's too big of an investment to be really viable. you'll face some funny burrow strats, though, like they've already existed back in broodwar. (watch mondragons tl attack to see how awesome hatchery tech burrow can be!)
On January 18 2013 07:26 Hollandrock wrote: Also, I've got a feeling burrow at hatchery will be super OP ... burrowed drone at your natural expansion..
i hope this happens so literally any all-in off one-base will kill them
Yeah I think the reaper upgrade is very neat, I do not think the building attack is necessary at this point as it would be OP. This provides a lot of opportunity for some good reaper/expansion harass as zerg wont have much protection until queen, toss until stalker/MS core comes out or forces some kind of static defense. In this patch it looks like T is setup as the aggressor.
Not sure reaper change does enough. Sure, they're easier to get, but the only thing they're useful for (harassing workers), they're not great at anymore. Reapers need more damage, not health. Still takes quite a few shots to kill a single worker. Unless the HP is buffed to like 100+, HP will not really help at all, as they will still be bad at harassing workers.
On January 18 2013 07:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote: I like the burrow change. Reaper change is meh have to see it in action... Increasing the Voidray supply wtf? didn't really know they were being that big of a problem... guess I should have been using them more xD
You really should have, Void rays were considered like the best unit in the game. In fact I think its safe to say that even this nerf might not be enough.
burrow in hatch tech, wtf? Do they even know their own game a little bit? burrowed banelings in hatchery tech sounds like a fucking joke. But it seems it's still just Blizzard (un)balancing the game.
I think these are great changes. The reaprer hp buff will hopefuly help it see more use then just the first few minutes of the game, and the supply increase makes the voidray ball a little more manageable at 200/200 (which is when voidrays are almost impossible to deal with before). The burrow upgrade I know has gotten talked about a bunch before, and while it might be OP its close to balanced and I think will take time to see if we find any early game pushes that are too powerful.
Tacking on a timer sounds really lazy. If it's hard for people to tell that the voids are in kill everything mode, improve the visuals slightly, don't just tack on a timer that screams "BACK AWAY!!"
Thumbs up on the burrow change. Dunno about reaper change. Don't like the increase in void supply.
On January 18 2013 07:43 Rad wrote: Tacking on a timer sounds really lazy. If it's hard for people to tell that the voids are in kill everything mode, improve the visuals slightly, don't just tack on a timer that screams "BACK AWAY!!"
Thumbs up on the burrow change. Dunno about reaper change. Don't like the increase in void supply.
Isn't the timer only for the protoss, to see that his ability is active?
why would reapers need more health they alredy tank enough for how small / cheap they are and they force protoss to have 1 stalker in main and 1 in the nat early game wich kinda sux not saying you gain full map control and scouting
I like the changes, Only don´t they help with any of the fundemental flaws that need to be tackeled before release and its getting less and less likely Blizzard will ever do anything about SC2s broken economy system ...
On January 18 2013 07:13 Talack wrote: I really wish that they would address problems with terran late game instead of forcing us into heavily aggressive early game options. Players get good at holding this stuff as the game goes on (as we're currently seeing in WOL) and it's not fun at all to have a severely diminished late game and being unable to follow economic style strategies because the opposing players late game armies are just much better.
Will be interesting to see what these changes bring. I am sure the burrow move can be very powerful, but hard to say without having played it! Looking forward to getting to testing!
Major League Gaming is currently broadcasting a Heart of the Swarm best of 7 showmatch. We will bring the beta service down shortly after the showmatch concludes, as we don't want to interrupt. You can watch the show at MLG's Twitch.tv Stream.
Burrow We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. Furthermore, the initial feedback from players has been very positive regarding this change, and we've already seen Zerg internal testers pull off some neat tricks using Burrow.
What you forget, dear David Kim, is: 1) This makes expansions even harder to take. Ever been blocked by creep? Now we also need to scan to land out command center. 2) When we push out, we need to be even more carefull --> burrowed banelings.
That's kind've what I was thinking.. As a Terran player it's a bit worrisome to see them settling into these patches with smaller changes less than two months before HotS release; like the window for big Terran changes/solutions is closing..
The burrow at hatch is such a joke. By by harassment of any kind, just burrow your drones at 5 minutes.
That is like saying you don't like the spore w/out an evo because air harassment will never work yet it still does.
Just because it is at hatchery tech doesn't mean it will be a standard upgrade all zergs will get. That is a considerable investment in the early game simply for the chance you'll need to burrow your drones.
The fact is that the hatchery burrow will come into play when people are going for some sorta of specific build/timing/tricky play in the early game. After that it really won't be a huge deal at all.
Just think of it this way, people hardly upgrade burrow even in the late game w/ excess resources so don't act like it is game breaking. Cool change, the more that is available early the better as long as there are scouting options for it.
Players are really forced to utilize the Reaper’s passive healing ability between attacks in order to maximize the unit’s efficiency. We'd like to further promote this type of play by slightly increasing Reaper health.
Forced to utilise? I don't think people are like "oh no, I have to have my units regen their health before I can go and do even more economic damage in the early game, woe is me "
It's a gift as it is. I guess Blizz really wants Terrans to use Reapers. That can come out even earlier, move faster, have more health which regens.
I fear that Nexus/Hatch first against Terran is going to become next to impossible if the Reaper keeps being buffed.
On January 18 2013 08:02 DarkLordOlli wrote: I disagree with every single one of those. The void ray one more than the others.
I agree, voidray will probably need a bigger nerf or zerg will need a buff AA while terran also needs that as well when going mech .
Nah, corruptors, hydras and ITs do well enough vs void rays. They didn't need a nerf. Especially considering that for every void ray you make, zerg can make more units to counter it as fast. Void rays are not a unit that is good in low numbers. In fact they're completely useless in low numbers unless your opponent has absolutely nothing that shoots air.
HotS theme of detection being more important than WoL continues, which is cool. I like the idea of these changes, will be interesting to see how they play out and see if they do what they intend
On January 18 2013 07:51 lorestarcraft wrote: The burrow at hatch is such a joke. By by harassment of any kind, just burrow your drones at 5 minutes.
You are neglecting the amount of time burrow takes to research (100 in game seconds), plus that means more drones on gas for longer to get speed (assuming you want it that is).
There will be all ins that can be done with it sure but I see this being more pertinent to ZvZ than any other match up.
Why the hell do they nerf void rays by increasing supply, but let the infestors run amok at 2 supply for months? I don't understand them sometimes.
Increasing supply cost of units is something you do if you only want to see a few of those units on the field at any point in time. The void ray, as is, has no real function. It's kind of a flying anti-armored unit but isn't really fast enough to be good for actual harass other than concentrated pressure, and it's only late game use is to fight against slow but powerful units who can't micro away from it anyway.
It just feels like a unit with an identity crisis. I don't know what blizzard wants me to do with it, and it's super expensive.
I already explained my thoughts in the other thread on burrow, but I still think it is really dumb. It shuts down the early pressure potential of the other races even harder than it already was.
Players are really forced to utilize the Reaper’s passive healing ability between attacks in order to maximize the unit’s efficiency. We'd like to further promote this type of play by slightly increasing Reaper health.
Forced to utilise? I don't think people are like "oh no, I have to have my units regen their health before I can go and do even more economic damage in the early game, woe is me "
It's a gift as it is. I guess Blizz really wants Terrans to use Reapers. That can come out even earlier, move faster, have more health which regens.
I fear that Nexus/Hatch first against Terran is going to become next to impossible if the Reaper keeps being buffed.
Oh come on, new Reaper is not nearly as good as the one from the balance update #10 was. They are buffing it because it is back to being a scout again instead of doing economic damage.
any harass against zerg will be meaningless with burrow you will need to waste a couple of mules to get the scans needed to kill enough to get ahead economic
I don't get the burrow change. This makes zerg even harder to stop from getting 200 drones, and allows to delay expansions easier. I can't think of any offensive usage of burrow at hatch. It only promotes loooong mutlibase plays, which are already prevailing.
On January 18 2013 08:09 Larkin wrote: I fear that Nexus/Hatch first against Terran is going to become next to impossible if the Reaper keeps being buffed.
There is nothing holy that says hatch first must be standard in HotS (and heck, I play zerg).
Burrow We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. Furthermore, the initial feedback from players has been very positive regarding this change, and we've already seen Zerg internal testers pull off some neat tricks using Burrow.
What you forget, dear David Kim, is: 1) This makes expansions even harder to take. Ever been blocked by creep? Now we also need to scan to land out command center. 2) When we push out, we need to be even more carefull --> burrowed banelings.
*Cough* Widow mines *Cough* Honestly I don't think it's a problem. The use of detection are care on the map are becoming more important all round in HoST. It's just a skill we need to develop.
The burrow at hatch is such a joke. By by harassment of any kind, just burrow your drones at 5 minutes.
That is like saying you don't like the spore w/out an evo because air harassment will never work yet it still does.
Just because it is at hatchery tech doesn't mean it will be a standard upgrade all zergs will get. That is a considerable investment in the early game simply for the chance you'll need to burrow your drones.
The fact is that the hatchery burrow will come into play when people are going for some sorta of specific build/timing/tricky play in the early game. After that it really won't be a huge deal at all.
Just think of it this way, people hardly upgrade burrow even in the late game w/ excess resources so don't act like it is game breaking. Cool change, the more that is available early the better as long as there are scouting options for it.
I wish we could add this to the OP. I know it shouldn't but it's starting to really annoy me seeing people write nonsense.
On January 18 2013 08:16 Tommyth wrote: I don't get the burrow change. This makes zerg even harder to stop from getting 200 drones, and allows to delay expansions easier. I can't think of any offensive usage of burrow at hatch. It only promotes loooong mutlibase plays, which are already prevailing.
Have you even played HotS? Harrass vs zerg is MUCH stronger in HotS, it is actually significantly harder to just drone and both terran and protoss have new defensive tools that allow them to be more greedy, if they want.
On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote: wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot
I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in?
Baneling landmines. Will delay the push for a few seconds until obs is out, don't think it matters too much. Though not sure if the all in will stick around at all.
On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote: wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot
I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in?
In theory the Zerg could set up some kind of mass burrowed Zergling / Roach army on the Protoss' path, assuming they don't have Observer. Not having to close the distance and being up close & personal with the Sentries is something Zergs tend to like. Not sure if it really works out so well every time though.
On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote: wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot
I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in?
you make tones of roaches , you burrow move under immortals you unborrow and PROFIT since 3 immortals wont kill more then 3-6 roaches while you move under and neighter will a handful of sentrys
On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote: wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot
I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in?
you make tones of roaches , you burrow move under immortals you unborrow and PROFIT since 3 immortals wont kill more then 3-6 roaches while you move under and neighter will a handful of sentrys
Well, burrow movement should still be at lair or that would be imbalanced as FFFFFFF
On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote: wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot
I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in?
you make tones of roaches , you burrow move under immortals you unborrow and PROFIT since 3 immortals wont kill more then 3-6 roaches while you move under and neighter will a handful of sentrys
Well, burrow movement should still be at lair or that would be imbalanced as FFFFFFF
I think people seem to think that burrow movement is the same as burrow or something otherwise no idea why they are complaining about it when it won't hit any earlier rofl...
Also a toss will have an observer anyway so yeah...
On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote: wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot
I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in?
you make tones of roaches , you burrow move under immortals you unborrow and PROFIT since 3 immortals wont kill more then 3-6 roaches while you move under and neighter will a handful of sentrys
Well, burrow movement should still be at lair or that would be imbalanced as FFFFFFF
just wait david kim will think about it and in no time he will put it hatch tech and maybe add some more hp to reaper so terrans no more need to scan 1 reaper can scout 5 bases and still survive since stalkers cant kill him with that speed
You cant just move roaches without tunneling claws and this is still tier 2. I acutally like the patch its much less strange than the ones before. Note that burrow was tier 1 in BW and you could burrow lings in the way of the marine bioball to kill them off before they reached your expo.
But the huge problem is that HOTS needs more big changes. It is not 100% clear where they are heading and some paths they choose not to take looked much more promising (and seem to be favored by a lot of players on this very platform including myself).
I see tons of ways burrow at hatch could backfire horribly and potentially break the early game in all MUs.
In ZvZ obviously the ability to 1 shot the entirety of the enemies army with just 1 bane will make push outs of any sorts after burrow, unfavorable, instead of making the MU more fun and volatile it would make it more passive and turtly, no one would want to move out until they have roaches and detection.
Same story in TvZ, the burrow upgrade would hit at a time where detection is harder to get, the terran is still at the stage where he needs to use orbital energy for mules to setup his economy, thus he can't afford to scan, and also ravens are a long way away from being made. It will make the early game a lot more passive and discourage move early move outs.
PvZ, while bane mines aren't as big of an issue here, the potential is still there to have a couple of banes in the right location to detonate on a bunch of sentries, effectively killing a push. After that there is potential for some earlier roach aggression, that would force many more cannons, because, if you don't have cannons, you can't detect and thus kill roaches, and they can wither away at you. Or it forces much earlier tech like SG and Robo just to survive against it if the attack comes early enough.
And while people can't see this as being viable yet, because of the standard builds and meta-game so far are to get just enough gas for speed and then all on minerals, what if defensive and even offensive burrowed banes, are so good that getting them out early enough gives you a huge window of time to drone? Yeah it wouldn't be optimal with the current 1 gas, but with 2 gas and harvesting exactly 200 you could get burrow out at the same time as speed and definitely much earlier then you ever could before.
I think the cute little micro tricks Blizz wants to encourage pale in comparison to the magnitude to which this could actually backfire.
Players are really forced to utilize the Reaper’s passive healing ability between attacks in order to maximize the unit’s efficiency. We'd like to further promote this type of play by slightly increasing Reaper health.
Forced to utilise? I don't think people are like "oh no, I have to have my units regen their health before I can go and do even more economic damage in the early game, woe is me "
It's a gift as it is. I guess Blizz really wants Terrans to use Reapers. That can come out even earlier, move faster, have more health which regens.
I fear that Nexus/Hatch first against Terran is going to become next to impossible if the Reaper keeps being buffed.
Oh come on, new Reaper is not nearly as good as the one from the balance update #10 was. They are buffing it because it is back to being a scout again instead of doing economic damage.
You clearly haven't had 4 reapers appear in your main at 4 minutes and kill nearly all your workers.
Activation timer for the VR is stupid imo, otherwise these changes look reasonable. I'd like to see +1 reaper damage still so it isn't quite as bad against roaches :3
On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote: wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot
I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in?
you make tones of roaches , you burrow move under immortals you unborrow and PROFIT since 3 immortals wont kill more then 3-6 roaches while you move under and neighter will a handful of sentrys
Well, burrow movement should still be at lair or that would be imbalanced as FFFFFFF
I think people seem to think that burrow movement is the same as burrow or something otherwise no idea why they are complaining about it when it won't hit any earlier rofl...
Also a toss will have an observer anyway so yeah...
Well no, the immortal all in moves out with 3 immortals and warp prism on the way. Then observer. But imagine a 2 base roach attack with burrow movement. There'd probably be no way to stop that, ever. That upgrade needs to stay on lair.
I like this patch. making the reaper more viable after the damage nerf. Atleast now it serves its purpose as a more beefier scout and doesnt rape mineral lines. Burrow on hatch was a good move to I think. I usually never get that thing, but early game I always wish I did lol
I guess i will always make a turret at my natural now since protosss have DT and zerg have burrow so quick now. well,its no big deal for defence,i just hope i don't get caught in banetrap too often now.
On January 18 2013 08:28 Destructicon wrote: I see tons of ways burrow at hatch could backfire horribly and potentially break the early game in all MUs.
In ZvZ obviously the ability to 1 shot the entirety of the enemies army with just 1 bane will make push outs of any sorts after burrow, unfavorable, instead of making the MU more fun and volatile it would make it more passive and turtly, no one would want to move out until they have roaches and detection.
Same story in TvZ, the burrow upgrade would hit at a time where detection is harder to get, the terran is still at the stage where he needs to use orbital energy for mules to setup his economy, thus he can't afford to scan, and also ravens are a long way away from being made. It will make the early game a lot more passive and discourage move early move outs.
PvZ, while bane mines aren't as big of an issue here, the potential is still there to have a couple of banes in the right location to detonate on a bunch of sentries, effectively killing a push. After that there is potential for some earlier roach aggression, that would force many more cannons, because, if you don't have cannons, you can't detect and thus kill roaches, and they can wither away at you. Or it forces much earlier tech like SG and Robo just to survive against it if the attack comes early enough.
And while people can't see this as being viable yet, because of the standard builds and meta-game so far are to get just enough gas for speed and then all on minerals, what if defensive and even offensive burrowed banes, are so good that getting them out early enough gives you a huge window of time to drone? Yeah it wouldn't be optimal with the current 1 gas, but with 2 gas and harvesting exactly 200 you could get burrow out at the same time as speed and definitely much earlier then you ever could before.
I think the cute little micro tricks Blizz wants to encourage pale in comparison to the magnitude to which this could actually backfire.
Some vaild points i dont tought about at the first time. You are right it might be horrible in ZvZ. The queen change alone makes a lot of maps save versus my strong ling bane play . I don't like 12 minute of nothingness that is ZvZ on some maps before they engage with this stupid generic armies.
But maybe it is the way blizzards wants the game to be, If you look at other aspects of the gameplay that very much favor 2 / 3 base play into maxout. The problem is really the high dps of baneling landmines. That makes the scary for marines and lings but in PvZ I think it would be much less of a problem?
Burrow We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. Furthermore, the initial feedback from players has been very positive regarding this change, and we've already seen Zerg internal testers pull off some neat tricks using Burrow.
What you forget, dear David Kim, is: 1) This makes expansions even harder to take. Ever been blocked by creep? Now we also need to scan to land out command center. 2) When we push out, we need to be even more carefull --> burrowed banelings.
1) Wrong. You can't have burrow before your opponent can expand. Even a slower expand. If you mean the third, the zerg can (and should) already do exactly that in WoL. 2) This is true, but to invest in burrow AND banelings that early, you'll have a severe economic dent. You would require a pretty amazing baneling hit in order to get even.
And in ZvZ you can kill burrowed units with your banes without detection. Just stay with overlord and see where enemy is burrowed.
The problem can be with burrowed roach blocking. But the counter can be creep and spore at the natural. At time of taking 3rd base zerg probably should have Lair.
On January 18 2013 08:28 Destructicon wrote: what if defensive and even offensive burrowed banes, are so good that getting them out early enough gives you a huge window of time to drone?
That's why they have a beta.
On January 18 2013 08:28 Destructicon wrote: Yeah it wouldn't be optimal with the current 1 gas, but with 2 gas and harvesting exactly 200 you could get burrow out at the same time as speed and definitely much earlier then you ever could before.
There is a big difference, which is that ling speed builds a the spawning pool and burrow at your hatch. This means if you get burrow that early your second queen will be significantly delayed, and therefore also your early larvae (which is very expensive, because they are usually drones and early drones are zerg economic foundation). This means that you have to cut even more drones to use that early burrow. I doubt you will see a build like that a lot. But who knows, we will see.
I really like the void ray and reaper changes. I think mass void rays was a bit strong as is, so the supply increase is a good move. Reapers were not very viable after the last patch, so they definitely needed some kind of buff.
I'm not sure about burrow on hatch yet. It could give zerg some really cool aggressive strategies, but it could also make it too easy to hold early aggression. I think we should wait before we judge this change to see how it turns out.
Burrow We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. Furthermore, the initial feedback from players has been very positive regarding this change, and we've already seen Zerg internal testers pull off some neat tricks using Burrow.
What you forget, dear David Kim, is: 1) This makes expansions even harder to take. Ever been blocked by creep? Now we also need to scan to land out command center. 2) When we push out, we need to be even more carefull --> burrowed banelings.
1) Wrong. You can't have burrow before your opponent can expand. Even a slower expand. If you mean the third, the zerg can (and should) already do exactly that in WoL. 2) This is true, but to invest in burrow AND banelings that early, you'll have a severe economic dent. You would require a pretty amazing baneling hit in order to get even.
1) u can 2) i think zerg will have more map awareness they will see when the opponent pushes out when he goes back and army composition with just one burrowed zergling outside the base
I'm not sure the void ray change is quite enough. Right now, the unit is currently broken, particularly in pvp. I've done exactly what they are suggesting (moving away while the charge is on), turned around and engaged and still lost with an almost pure stalker army. Perhaps the supply change will be enough, but I think they need to nerf the damage a bit. Right now the void ray is sort of an uber unit.
Phoenixes still counter void rays for the same cost. Also Archons can be good against void rays, because Void Ray damage against non-armored targets is still low and charge does not buffs damage versus non-armored units.
The burrow change could be good, or could be really bad, but I'm sure if its the latter they'll revert the changes soon enough.
Reapers are just annoying, don't like most of the changes for them personally.
As for void ray nerf, hmm, no comment on it at this moment though I'm quite frustrated why they never attempted to tweak the supply cost of infestor/broodlord in Wings of Liberty - they could have easily done the same thing to prevent the lategame zerg from being too powerful. Although WoL is ending soon so its not a huge issue anymore, its the response time that really bothers me, the balance was so poor in the last 6~9 months or so, I'm sure it frustrated a large number of players.
On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote: wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot
I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in?
In theory the Zerg could set up some kind of mass burrowed Zergling / Roach army on the Protoss' path, assuming they don't have Observer. Not having to close the distance and being up close & personal with the Sentries is something Zergs tend to like. Not sure if it really works out so well every time though.
That's a hell of an investment just in case he's doing that push and he doesn't have an observer (and you manage to be in his path).
Not to mention you can already hard counter this push with other builds.
On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote: wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot
I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in?
you make tones of roaches , you burrow move under immortals you unborrow and PROFIT since 3 immortals wont kill more then 3-6 roaches while you move under and neighter will a handful of sentrys
You'd still have to research burrow movement... With requires lair. Nothing changes.
I get their reason behind the VR timer but it just seems incredibly goofy to me :\ Hopefully it'll show people there is value to not engaging fully charged VR's and Blizzard could remove it later?
I pretty much like all changes. Void Ray cost to supply ratio was way higher than anything else in the game, and its very strong right now, so a slight nerf in this direction is warranted imo.
However, I also really believe they should take away the Void Ray's extended range on a targetted unit. That is, right now Voids have 6 range, but once you're attacking if the target tries to run away the range extends to 8.
This, far more than any difficulty in perceiving the charged state, is what really discourages opponents from baiting Void Ray attacks. A good way to slightly nerf Voids, and to really encourage the sort of micro Blizzard say they want, would be to remove this feature and simply give Voids 6 range straight up.
On January 18 2013 08:38 Existor wrote: And in ZvZ you can kill burrowed units with your banes without detection. Just stay with overlord and see where enemy is burrowed.
The problem can be with burrowed roach blocking. But the counter can be creep and spore at the natural. At time of taking 3rd base zerg probably should have Lair.
Considering you're essentially paying the price of a lair just to delay a bit an expansion in some situations... I'd say it's not a great move.
On January 18 2013 08:16 Tommyth wrote: I don't get the burrow change. This makes zerg even harder to stop from getting 200 drones, and allows to delay expansions easier. I can't think of any offensive usage of burrow at hatch. It only promotes loooong mutlibase plays, which are already prevailing.
Have you even played HotS? Harrass vs zerg is MUCH stronger in HotS, it is actually significantly harder to just drone and both terran and protoss have new defensive tools that allow them to be more greedy, if they want.
Much stronger? I'm not sure if YOU have played hots sir. Oracles and widow mines are strong, but are still getting shut by a couple of spores. And yeah, T and P got new defensive tools, that's why zergs should be compensated with some offensive options, rather than another defensive one.
On January 18 2013 09:02 awesomoecalypse wrote: I pretty much like all changes. Void Ray cost to supply ratio was way higher than anything else in the game, and its very strong right now, so a slight nerf in this direction is warranted imo.
However, I also really believe they should take away the Void Ray's extended range on a targetted unit. That is, right now Voids have 6 range, but once you're attacking if the target tries to run away the range extends to 8.
This, far more than any difficulty in perceiving the charged state, is what really discourages opponents from baiting Void Ray attacks. A good way to slightly nerf Voids, and to really encourage the sort of micro Blizzard say they want, would be to remove this feature and simply give Voids 6 range straight up.
That's a great idea. Void rays don't need to maintain fire on a single unit to build up charge anymore, so the extended range no longer serves the role of preventing players from microing units away before charge can build up.
On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote: wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot
I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in?
you make tones of roaches , you burrow move under immortals you unborrow and PROFIT since 3 immortals wont kill more then 3-6 roaches while you move under and neighter will a handful of sentrys
But you could do this now... since you would need lair tech. Burrow is already an option to assist against the all in.
You could have burrow now on Lair vs the all in if anyone really tried to use it. I would say this gives more options for the Zerg early on to burrow trap, burrow harass.
On January 18 2013 08:43 CrakkaJack wrote: All zerg units can cloak for no energy or cooldown at hatchery tech... seems like zerg totally needed a buff *sarcasm*
Yeah! All Zergs are now going to be immediately throwing their first 100 gas into burrow tech so that in the off chance that there's a successful hellion run by or marine drop, the Zerg can burrow their drones and get VERY far ahead while they just sit there and not mine any gas/minerals *sarcasm*
Reapers are heading in the right direction? Is that direction uselessness, because that's the direction it's going. A health buff does nothing for a unit that's supposed to be harassing. Except that it's terrible at harassing now.
Also burrow at T1 is a needless buff. Back to that 5 range queen logic.
On January 18 2013 09:22 SolidMoose wrote: Reapers are heading in the right direction? Is that direction uselessness, because that's the direction it's going. A health buff does nothing for a unit that's supposed to be harassing. Except that it's terrible at harassing now.
Also burrow at T1 is a needless buff. Back to that 5 range queen logic.
Reapers now have more hp than combat shield marines FYI. This is in addition to their regeneration ability as well. I wouldn't be surprised if this makes them useful this patch.
On January 18 2013 07:07 [17]Purple wrote: I really hate all these high supply units, wish it was all reduced.
I mean like the half or -2 all the high ones, it just seems to make the armies more smaller and thus more compact. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about and reducing high unit supply would disrupt the game. Hohum~
There is major supply inflation in SC2, but the real problem is with SC2 economy. It is way too easy to max out, so you have periods of stalemates where both players are posturing while not really macroing, even if they are expanding and whatnot. Truly boring and not good for the game.
While I agree that it's lame to see so much play where the players don't start fighting until they hit 200/200, I see this as more of a problem with the maps than the economy.
If 3rd's werent so easy to take and defend it would encourage far different play.
Seems pretty obvious that they are moving the reaper away from a harassment unit and toward a scouting unit. If some damage is done, great, but I think it is the response that Terran have complained about lack of ability to scout specific all-ins, zerg to be exact. Popping out a quick reaper and running through a base should help with that, and save a scan which could miss seeing anything.
I'm a bit confused about the Void Ray tbh, it already seemed like a useless unit (unless they were massed in Bronze-Gold League) but from what I can tell they are overall shittier than they were in WoL and now they are going to cost MORE supply?
If they are going to cost 4 supply, could they at least start off with 1 armour or something? Since they are supposedly Armoured anyway.
On January 18 2013 07:07 [17]Purple wrote: I really hate all these high supply units, wish it was all reduced.
I mean like the half or -2 all the high ones, it just seems to make the armies more smaller and thus more compact. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about and reducing high unit supply would disrupt the game. Hohum~
There is major supply inflation in SC2, but the real problem is with SC2 economy. It is way too easy to max out, so you have periods of stalemates where both players are posturing while not really macroing, even if they are expanding and whatnot. Truly boring and not good for the game.
While I agree that it's lame to see so much play where the players don't start fighting until they hit 200/200, I see this as more of a problem with the maps than the economy.
If 3rd's werent so easy to take and defend it would encourage far different play.
Yeah, 2 base allins.
I also think lowering supply would be something interesting to try. Although it's probably too late to even think about such a thing.
On January 18 2013 09:22 SolidMoose wrote: Reapers are heading in the right direction? Is that direction uselessness, because that's the direction it's going. A health buff does nothing for a unit that's supposed to be harassing. Except that it's terrible at harassing now.
Also burrow at T1 is a needless buff. Back to that 5 range queen logic.
Reapers now have more hp than combat shield marines FYI. This is in addition to their regeneration ability as well. I wouldn't be surprised if this makes them useful this patch.
No. It would be like giving Siege Tanks an HP buff instead of something they need. It's a useless buff that doesn't address any underlying issue with the unit. I'll hold off on further comments because I think Blizzard will be making more mech changes next patch.
On January 18 2013 09:22 SolidMoose wrote: Reapers are heading in the right direction? Is that direction uselessness, because that's the direction it's going. A health buff does nothing for a unit that's supposed to be harassing. Except that it's terrible at harassing now.
Also burrow at T1 is a needless buff. Back to that 5 range queen logic.
On January 18 2013 09:35 Myrddraal wrote: I'm a bit confused about the Void Ray tbh, it already seemed like a useless unit (unless they were massed in Bronze-Gold League) but from what I can tell they are overall shittier than they were in WoL and now they are going to cost MORE supply?
If they are going to cost 4 supply, could they at least start off with 1 armour or something? Since they are supposedly Armoured anyway.
ok you didnt play/watch hots because they are really broken right now. well bfr this patch
I really wish they'd experiment with 225/250 supply cap. It might allow for the lingering supply to be used for harassment and small engagements. The expansion is the perfect time to try this.
I wonder why they never thought about giving reapers stim aswell, if they wanna force this unit so bad in the game. At the moment the reaper has the same use as it has in WOL, early harass, that's it.
On January 18 2013 09:43 WeRRa wrote: I wonder why they never thought about giving reapers stim aswell, if they wanna force this unit so bad in the game. At the moment the reaper has the same use as it has in WOL, early harass, that's it.
That or give it that grenade it had back in Alpha or the Campaign.
On January 18 2013 09:39 Glockateer wrote: I really wish they'd experiment with 225/250 supply cap. It might allow for the lingering supply to be used for harassment and small engagements. The expansion is the perfect time to try this.
I would love that, they also increased the supply cap in war3 with tft, definitly does a lot to the game.
What we dont need is another harass that is ´´allin´´ like nydus or this new burrow. We actually need a early/midgame harass potion like phoenix, oracle, hellion, banshee, reaper (and now i dont count the muta since they require a huge allinish investment). We need to take away the Gas cost for the drop upgrade! I play terran and protoss and you are making the medivacs anyway and the warp prism is mineral only, Zerg needs to be on even ground considering the cost to get drops going.
On January 18 2013 09:39 Glockateer wrote: I really wish they'd experiment with 225/250 supply cap. It might allow for the lingering supply to be used for harassment and small engagements. The expansion is the perfect time to try this.
I feel all that would do is create larger deathballs.
On January 18 2013 07:43 Rad wrote: Tacking on a timer sounds really lazy. If it's hard for people to tell that the voids are in kill everything mode, improve the visuals slightly, don't just tack on a timer that screams "BACK AWAY!!"
Thumbs up on the burrow change. Dunno about reaper change. Don't like the increase in void supply.
Isn't the timer only for the protoss, to see that his ability is active?
From their explanation, I get the impression that it's going to be visible to everyone, not just to the protoss that's using it:
"We haven't seen many players microing against the Void Ray's Prismatic Alignment ability, even among the highest rated players in the HotS Beta. In order to encourage more precise micro against this ability, we've decided to display a timer on the Void Ray for the duration of the effect. We're hoping to see players pull their units back against Prismatic Alignment, and re-engage once the ability is on cooldown."
The micro they're talking about, I would assume, is to back away from the voids while it's activated. This could be done in a much more interesting way by enhancing the graphics of a charged up void, rather than just sticking a timer on it.
On January 18 2013 09:35 Myrddraal wrote: I'm a bit confused about the Void Ray tbh, it already seemed like a useless unit (unless they were massed in Bronze-Gold League) but from what I can tell they are overall shittier than they were in WoL and now they are going to cost MORE supply?
If they are going to cost 4 supply, could they at least start off with 1 armour or something? Since they are supposedly Armoured anyway.
Do you not play hots at all? Or do you not watch it either? Voidrays are really really really really really really really powerful right now especially in pvz (I don't know how they are pvt).
In PvZ you get a good amount of voidrays with some templar and zerg will never kill that army cost effectively unless the toss player is on move command and doesn't storm at all. Hydra/infestor/corruptor gets smashed to pieces by voidray/templar so bad.
Corruptors themselves melt faster then butter in a microwave that's how strong voidrays are now.
On January 18 2013 07:43 Rad wrote: Tacking on a timer sounds really lazy. If it's hard for people to tell that the voids are in kill everything mode, improve the visuals slightly, don't just tack on a timer that screams "BACK AWAY!!"
Thumbs up on the burrow change. Dunno about reaper change. Don't like the increase in void supply.
Isn't the timer only for the protoss, to see that his ability is active?
From their explanation, I get the impression that it's going to be visible to everyone, not just to the protoss that's using it:
"We haven't seen many players microing against the Void Ray's Prismatic Alignment ability, even among the highest rated players in the HotS Beta. In order to encourage more precise micro against this ability, we've decided to display a timer on the Void Ray for the duration of the effect. We're hoping to see players pull their units back against Prismatic Alignment, and re-engage once the ability is on cooldown."
The micro they're talking about, I would assume, is to back away from the voids while it's activated. This could be done in a much more interesting way by enhancing the graphics of a charged up void, rather than just sticking a timer on it.
I agree. I think it would be cool if when Void Rays are charged up the beam turns a different color and as the timer runs down it slowly changes back to the original color.
The micro they're talking about, I would assume, is to back away from the voids while it's activated. This could be done in a much more interesting way by enhancing the graphics of a charged up void, rather than just sticking a timer on it.
Or just remove the specific mechanic Voids have that discourages pulling away (their extended range on targetted units), which they are the only unit to possess, and which they only have in the first place because of the way their old charge worked (i.e. damage upfront was low, and they needed to be able to attack one target continuously for a bit to charge up). But thats no longer the case, and the legacy mechanic is having the effect of running directly counter to the micro Blizzard wants to encourage.
On January 18 2013 09:35 Myrddraal wrote: I'm a bit confused about the Void Ray tbh, it already seemed like a useless unit (unless they were massed in Bronze-Gold League) but from what I can tell they are overall shittier than they were in WoL and now they are going to cost MORE supply?
If they are going to cost 4 supply, could they at least start off with 1 armour or something? Since they are supposedly Armoured anyway.
ok you didnt play/watch hots because they are really broken right now. well bfr this patch
On January 18 2013 09:35 Myrddraal wrote: I'm a bit confused about the Void Ray tbh, it already seemed like a useless unit (unless they were massed in Bronze-Gold League) but from what I can tell they are overall shittier than they were in WoL and now they are going to cost MORE supply?
If they are going to cost 4 supply, could they at least start off with 1 armour or something? Since they are supposedly Armoured anyway.
ok you didnt play/watch hots because they are really broken right now. well bfr this patch
They will still be broken at +1 supply.
I am praying that toss players over react to this nerf and stop massing void rays... A man can hope xD
ok with this stuff i guess. hatch tech burrow has the potential to be interesting. i think reapers are still kind of a side show and aren't going to be used much. i didn't realize the new void ray was so strong - haven't seen many games with them being used. i agree with the people saying the animation should be changed to make it more obvious. dunno if making them 4 food is very bright if they want it to be the core DPS unit for stargate tech. guess we'll see.
voidray change is good, they are so cost effective late game when you get like 5-7 of them with your air army. Makes facing toss air a little easier when you play mech.
Reaper change is whatever, i think the reaper is a lost cause at this point. Give it a flare or a boost like the medivac.
Burrow change is good, people who are saying it will be op obviously did not play bw. That 100 early gas is gonna delay the zerg tech and they gotta do something with burrow lings/banes/roaches to make it worthwhile. The ground should be slightly altered when there are burrowed units though.
Reaper should be put back on tech lab, increasing its strength early game isn't a good idea because of the healing ;x What should be done is; back on tech lab, lower build time, give them hp buff from combat shields and add back in their building attack but make it a factory upgrade.
They will still be accessible early game but not as a super harass unit (which is the banshee/hellion role anyway) and gives them relevance later on with a building attack. Either that or just remove them because they seem unable to find a spot for reapers that isn't too strong or too weak.
Blizzard says they are making burrow at Hatch tech to encourage more early game aggression on the map. In PvZ at least I think this will make Protoss want to turtle even more. This early in the game it is unlikely to have any mobile detection unless we rush for it and any burrow trap will pretty much end the game.
No. It would be like giving Siege Tanks an HP buff instead of something they need. It's a useless buff that doesn't address any underlying issue with the unit. I'll hold off on further comments because I think Blizzard will be making more mech changes next patch.
Really? I think it helps it have just enough hitpoints to get a good scout in (even during the mid and late game) and still get out alive. I'd definitely consider having one or two moving around throughout the game, especially with how fast it is now. It would be interesting to give it increased vision range to make up for the loss of combat awareness too.
Wow now PvZ air will be more manageable. The reaper health buff is much needed for a 50 gas scouting unit. Great patch overall, but lacking. Still no love for the siege tank
On January 18 2013 10:26 Masada714 wrote: Blizzard says they are making burrow at Hatch tech to encourage more early game aggression on the map. In PvZ at least I think this will make Protoss want to turtle even more. This early in the game it is unlikely to have any mobile detection unless we rush for it and any burrow trap will pretty much end the game.
a few cannons until you get observer and you will be fine.
Its not that easy to get a perfect burrow surround as well, if your paranoid just move your army around in weird directions.
On January 18 2013 10:27 Nethune wrote: Gee, I'll definetly have fun only opening Robo now! Thanks Blizzard!
Oracle can detect too. And burrowed banelings aren't effective against air units and many protoss units. And you always have recall if you're in a trap
On January 18 2013 10:27 Nethune wrote: Gee, I'll definetly have fun only opening Robo now! Thanks Blizzard!
Oracle can detect too. And burrowed banelings aren't effective against air units and many protoss units. And you always have recall if you're in a trap
that, and also, why would you ever be engaging away from cannons until you have obs out anyway
the only real problem this poses in zvp is if the zerg is able to snipe your cannons at the third before they go up and while your army is out of position but before your obs are out
On January 18 2013 10:27 Nethune wrote: Gee, I'll definetly have fun only opening Robo now! Thanks Blizzard!
Oracle can detect too. And burrowed banelings aren't effective against air units and many protoss units. And you always have recall if you're in a trap
I'd like the idea of burrow at hatch much more if detection was given back to the MSC
In ZvZ obviously the ability to 1 shot the entirety of the enemies army with just 1 bane will make push outs of any sorts after burrow, unfavorable, instead of making the MU more fun and volatile it would make it more passive and turtly, no one would want to move out until they have roaches and detection.
...
PvZ, while bane mines aren't as big of an issue here, the potential is still there to have a couple of banes in the right location to detonate on a bunch of sentries, effectively killing a push. After that there is potential for some earlier roach aggression, that would force many more cannons, because, if you don't have cannons, you can't detect and thus kill roaches, and they can wither away at you. Or it forces much earlier tech like SG and Robo just to survive against it if the attack comes early enough.
In theory, ZvZ could be gamebreaking with the new burrow, but catching that many lings with a baneling bomb is something (theoretically) only pros will probably be able to do. I hardly ever see banling bombs as it is.
Also, can 2 banelings burrowed kill all those sentries?
On January 18 2013 10:49 vesicular wrote: So I can burrow at hatch but can't detect until lair? How does that even make sense.
• bane can kill burrowed ling • 2 banes can kill burrowed banes • 8 banes can kill burrowed roach, but you can have creep for spore • overlords allows you to see where enemy burrowed his units moment ago
Can someone explain me why did they change burrow?
Maybe because everything for zergs is same untill they build infestation pit?
My god why are 95% of the comments about burrow uneducated trashy statements. The investment is pretty damn large and will delay other tech. I do like the void ray being nerfed a tad, it was just way, way too strong. Zerg had no real way to deal with void rays in a deathball. I would like their charge having some visual effect like others stated; something like a different colour. HP buff to reapers is useful; now they can take a few more hits while scouting.
On January 18 2013 11:26 awesomoecalypse wrote: Can anyone post screenshots of the Void Ray timer? It sounds kinda dumb but I want to see it in action before making a final conclusion
Same as Widow Mine grey bar under health bar, or as Locust life-time grey bar.
If people want to be so salty about the prismatic timer I guess we can just remove the overhead timer for stim on Marines/Marauders... Only fair, right??
On January 18 2013 11:41 TheSwagger wrote: If people want to be so salty about the prismatic timer I guess we can just remove the overhead timer for stim on Marines/Marauders... Only fair, right??
On January 18 2013 11:40 Lime-on wrote: Does anyone still think that the reaper is still not viable late game? For me it seems that their window to do damage is so small just like in WoL.
their was a game WAY back in the day qxc made like 5 reapers and with +3 attack just ripped a mineral line in less then 2 sec and even killed the nexus (I think he was playing toss). it was on xel'naga
their only good for harass, and plus Terrans have only gone MMM since day one they never NEEDED to change their strat.. why they don't try new stuff but that's a debate for a different topic
On January 18 2013 11:26 awesomoecalypse wrote: Can anyone post screenshots of the Void Ray timer? It sounds kinda dumb but I want to see it in action before making a final conclusion
Same as Widow Mine grey bar under health bar, or as Locust life-time grey bar.
Haha lol, for some reason I was picturing giant numbers above the void ray.
On January 18 2013 11:40 Lime-on wrote: Does anyone still think that the reaper is still not viable late game? For me it seems that their window to do damage is so small just like in WoL.
their was a game WAY back in the day qxc made like 5 reapers and with +3 attack just ripped a mineral line in less then 2 sec and even killed the nexus (I think he was playing toss). it was on xel'naga
their only good for harass, and plus Terrans have only gone MMM since day one they never NEEDED to change their strat.. why they don't try new stuff but that's a debate for a different topic
So let me get this straight, you are admitting that MMM is the only viable Terran build but saying that it is ok b/c they "don't need to change their strat..." Seriously? Name one Terran ever that beat Life with MMM.
Yeah roach timings are gonna be problematic for terran. But i think it's still works.
Void Rays? Oracles are the damn problem! Defend with zealot/stalker early game, and then mass oracle! I've seen this so many times. And mech will die to 1) immortals 2) void rays and 3) oracles! + Vikings are friggin useless against oracles too. Protoss air has become too op imo.
On January 18 2013 11:40 Lime-on wrote: Does anyone still think that the reaper is still not viable late game? For me it seems that their window to do damage is so small just like in WoL.
their was a game WAY back in the day qxc made like 5 reapers and with +3 attack just ripped a mineral line in less then 2 sec and even killed the nexus (I think he was playing toss). it was on xel'naga
their only good for harass, and plus Terrans have only gone MMM since day one they never NEEDED to change their strat.. why they don't try new stuff but that's a debate for a different topic
Why Terrans dont try something different than MMM doesnt require a thread but rather some minor thinking. Just looking at their other units and looking for synergies will do the trick. They dont really work well together.
Games "WAY back" dont matter anymore since they removed the bonus damage from the Reaper ...
Have an icon pop up like stim that'll blink as it wears off AND/OR have the beam glow a different hue, e.g. darker hue. Right now its so subtle, its hard to tell the beam got bigger from the overlap from more than one beam or if prismatic alignment was used.
Voidray charge needs more visibility ? I found it was really easy to notice when you better avoid em lol. Guess they forgot the extended range on those things, which makes running away kinda hard. Activate the beam and move towards the opponent, no way they get out of range without losing half of their army unless they are super fast units. I had Zergs try it with Corruptors. Each Voidray basically gets on Corrupter before they leave the range. Though I guess most people will move the Voids with attack move, that way it is easier to run away from them.
On January 18 2013 12:18 FeyFey wrote: Voidray charge needs more visibility ? I found it was really easy to notice when you better avoid em lol. Guess they forgot the extended range on those things, which makes running away kinda hard. Activate the beam and move towards the opponent, no way they get out of range without losing half of their army unless they are super fast units. I had Zergs try it with Corruptors. Each Voidray basically gets on Corrupter before they leave the range. Though I guess most people will move the Voids with attack move, that way it is easier to run away from them.
extended range should really be removed. there's no reason for it now that Void charge can be triggered on command rather than reliant on charging up via sustained attack on a single target.
On January 18 2013 11:41 TheSwagger wrote: If people want to be so salty about the prismatic timer I guess we can just remove the overhead timer for stim on Marines/Marauders... Only fair, right??
You have a timer for Stim? What Am I Reading?
yeah man stim has the little multi-colored lightning bolt that shifts from green --> red when stim is drying out
I think they should activate a "charge up" delay for the void ray ability. Would add more to the decision making, trying to force out a charge then bailing, etc. And it would keep it in line for the charge up it currently has in WoL. Only thing I fear is it will just add more to trying to fake out a Protoss army (like you try to do with FF).
FINALLY blizzard does something right Ive been waiting for the day for burrow tech on hatchery. This changes so much is ridiculous. Im so excited for sc2's future
On January 18 2013 12:18 FeyFey wrote: Voidray charge needs more visibility ? I found it was really easy to notice when you better avoid em lol. Guess they forgot the extended range on those things, which makes running away kinda hard. Activate the beam and move towards the opponent, no way they get out of range without losing half of their army unless they are super fast units. I had Zergs try it with Corruptors. Each Voidray basically gets on Corrupter before they leave the range. Though I guess most people will move the Voids with attack move, that way it is easier to run away from them.
extended range should really be removed. there's no reason for it now that Void charge can be triggered on command rather than reliant on charging up via sustained attack on a single target.
I wish they would turn them back into the heavy micro variant, they are no fun anymore with their charge on a button. I like units that overkill alot, especially liked the Voidray with its special variant of Overkill, it gives you a reason to control them better. I like the extended range also as it makes it more interesting to micro against Voidrays and they aren't hard countered by Vikings that way. They wouldn't really work with Range 6 only, because of the way they attack.
Reaper health increase is probably good. Void Ray timer is weird, there's nothing else that behaves like that in the game, is there?
Void Ray supply increase seems stupid, simply because VRs aren't just too good lategame, they're also too good mid game. Just nerf their damage.
Burrow change might crease interesting plays, or it might just give Zergs an unneeded boost to their ability to outmacro Protoss and Terrans safely. We'll see.
More importantly, where are the lategame buffs to mech? Where are the changes to Protoss to decrease reliance on a big dumb deathball?
Burrow at hatch tech is a pretty significant change, it will allow zerg to use roaches/banelings in some pretty interesting ways. Not to mention some of the potential defensive uses for it early on like burrowing a bunch of drones vs an early drop, banshees, or stargate tech.
Overall I like the change a lot it will make burrow much more useful and the option to delay lair tech much more 'doable'.
I have to say I like this patch a lot. +1 Blizzard. Earlier burrow just means you have to add turret at the front if you sense the zerg player is planning on being aggressive. It is similar to TvP, where you throw down a turret at 6mins mark.
Burrow definitely changes the entire early stage of the game completely, but I am sure it will only encourage more aggressive play rather than turtle death-ball play.
On January 18 2013 13:24 avilo wrote: So, even easier mode now to power to 60 drones. And if you get in trouble ever, you now can essentially cloak them all.
This hardly makes it easier to power to 60 drones.
On January 18 2013 13:25 FataLe wrote: holy shit the void ray timer thing really rustles my jimmies.
a good player will pay attention and even bait out the ability, wait for the charge to die then proceed to attack.
dafuq are they thinking, they're babying the micro for noobies.
well, their point is that, no one regardless of skill level, not even the pros, is baiting the ability as the game stands right now. but I think they're wrong about why. pros aren't dumb, they know when charge happens. the issue is that voids have a unique feature where when they attack something, if that unit tries to retreat the void range extends to follow them. it was added in WoL because Voids needed to charge up by sustained attack. But now that charge is triggered, its having the exact opposite effect from what Blizzard wants, which is to discourage the exact baiting you describe and they say they want.
solution: remove extended range. simple as hell, and does a lot more to encourage baiting and retreating than any timer will.
On January 18 2013 13:24 avilo wrote: So, even easier mode now to power to 60 drones. And if you get in trouble ever, you now can essentially cloak them all.
This hardly makes it easier to power to 60 drones.
Wrong. With burrow at hatchery tech (100/100 is incredibly easy to afford) now you can 3 base 60-70 drone with burrowed banelings/burrowed ling traps + the THREAT of it.
It's going to be much easier to drone up, which is bad.
It may not seem that impactful at first, but neither did the +2 queen range / overlord speed to people that did not have the foresight to understand how bad those changes were.
I don't like it, because it can give Zerg too much scouting power too early. They can basically burrow a handful of Zerglings near the opponent and know when they will move out. Zerg already have the biggest maphack of them all - creep - and this just has the potential to give them very early scouting in the opponents half of the map.
This will also "revolutionize" early ZvZ by enabling Baneling mines ... making Zerglings rather useless / risky as an attacking strategy. You can have a detector only with Lair tech, so attacking wont work unless you know where your opponent burrowed his defensive Banelings. This kills part of the excitement of ZvZ ... the "who gets a good Baneling hit?" part.
Also i'm surprised the tempest is still at 4 supply instead of put back up to 6 or even 8. Mass tempests in Protoss lategame is not fun, nor entertaining to watch or play/play against. Not to mention Z lategame has no answer to it, and T mech as well has no answer.
What is going on? So much stuff to be addressed that isn't, TVP mech viability COUGHS*
But I guess the order of importance is +10 reaper HP first...
I think they just want people to research burrow. It's a cool ability that doesn't get used. Well, almost never. I think they might change it back or do some kind of nerf to after people do powerful stuff with it.
Whatever happened to burrow-movement on banelings? Or the speedboost on Battlecrusiers?: (
On January 18 2013 13:24 avilo wrote: So, even easier mode now to power to 60 drones. And if you get in trouble ever, you now can essentially cloak them all.
This hardly makes it easier to power to 60 drones.
Wrong. With burrow at hatchery tech (100/100 is incredibly easy to afford) now you can 3 base 60-70 drone with burrowed banelings/burrowed ling traps + the THREAT of it.
It's going to be much easier to drone up, which is bad.
It may not seem that impactful at first, but neither did the +2 queen range / overlord speed to people that did not have the foresight to understand how bad those changes were.
The burrow change is terrible.
Its not like its free. Its 100/100, and eats up 100 seconds of hatch time. That isn't a minor investment for a Zerg who wants to power econ--its a bigger hit than Ling speed (same cost, but researching from the hatch has more economic drawbacks), and we all know Zergs who really want to powerdrone always skip Ling Speed until like the 7 or 8 minute mark at the earliest.
On January 18 2013 13:35 avilo wrote: Also i'm surprised the tempest is still at 4 supply instead of put back up to 6 or even 8. Mass tempests in Protoss lategame is not fun, nor entertaining to watch or play/play against. Not to mention Z lategame has no answer to it, and T mech as well has no answer.
What is going on? So much stuff to be addressed that isn't, TVP mech viability COUGHS*
But I guess the order of importance is +10 reaper HP first...
mass tempest? what are you talking about? tempest get smoked by void rays, who also wreck stalkers. most PvPs these days seem to come down to either mass Voids if one guy goes air, or Phoenix wars over air dominance if they both do.
On January 18 2013 13:25 FataLe wrote: holy shit the void ray timer thing really rustles my jimmies.
a good player will pay attention and even bait out the ability, wait for the charge to die then proceed to attack.
dafuq are they thinking, they're babying the micro for noobies.
well, their point is that, no one regardless of skill level, not even the pros, is baiting the ability as the game stands right now. but I think they're wrong about why. pros aren't dumb, they know when charge happens. the issue is that voids have a unique feature where when they attack something, if that unit tries to retreat the void range extends to follow them. it was added in WoL because Voids needed to charge up by sustained attack. But now that charge is triggered, its having the exact opposite effect from what Blizzard wants, which is to discourage the exact baiting you describe and they say they want.
solution: remove extended range. simple as hell, and does a lot more to encourage baiting and retreating than any timer will.
lol i played desrow a week ago (I have the replay saved) where I went voidray archon chargelot. After the game I went back and watched the vod from his stream and basically he was telling the guy on skype that he's trying to bait the ability and it's evident in the replay.
on top of that, it's the beta and they're the first people to say hold on guys, we'll give it a little time and you'll be able to figure it out yourselves, if you can't then we'll change it sometime down the line. basically what they've done here is dumbed it down because they weren't seeing immediate results (when in fact, they were still present)
On January 18 2013 13:24 avilo wrote: So, even easier mode now to power to 60 drones. And if you get in trouble ever, you now can essentially cloak them all.
This hardly makes it easier to power to 60 drones.
Wrong. With burrow at hatchery tech (100/100 is incredibly easy to afford) now you can 3 base 60-70 drone with burrowed banelings/burrowed ling traps + the THREAT of it.
It's going to be much easier to drone up, which is bad.
It may not seem that impactful at first, but neither did the +2 queen range / overlord speed to people that did not have the foresight to understand how bad those changes were.
The burrow change is terrible.
While 100/100 isn't necessarily hard to afford, it's still something. If you're getting burrow, you're delaying your lair, or speed, or both. As it is right now, it's already easy to power up to 60 drones without really losing many - 100/100 would only hinder this powering, which is the reason many Zergs don't get Zergling speed early on. They delay it til the last possible moment, even though it offers amazing potential for counter attacks, etc.
At best you could have a burrowed baneling rush - however, this will have minimal impact vs hellions unless the hellions are going for a runby. The threat you mention is probably the biggest setback, just as the threat of widow mines exist even if Terran does not go for them.
On January 18 2013 13:35 avilo wrote: Also i'm surprised the tempest is still at 4 supply instead of put back up to 6 or even 8. Mass tempests in Protoss lategame is not fun, nor entertaining to watch or play/play against. Not to mention Z lategame has no answer to it, and T mech as well has no answer.
What is going on? So much stuff to be addressed that isn't, TVP mech viability COUGHS*
But I guess the order of importance is +10 reaper HP first...
mass tempest? what are you talking about? tempest get smoked by void rays, who also wreck stalkers. most PvPs these days seem to come down to either mass Voids if one guy goes air, or Phoenix wars over air dominance if they both do.
the void ray charge is very visible. the problem is how do you bait out the charge ability, you can't always pull back in an engagement because you would be losing way too much already, plus you might lose out a favorable concave position.
The burrow upgrade I am not sure about as well. 100/100 is a HUGE investment, especially because it is researched at Hatch. You have to get gas AND stop queen production, meaning weaker early defense and less creep spread. IMO, mid game is where burrow shines, with baneling landmine, ling blocking expo, burrow ling for vision, burrow roach, burrow drones against drops etc.
I can't see much reason to get it early at hatch level unless you are going for some chessy play (maybe burrow roach timing attack?)
There isn't any matchup in HotS in which the metagame for Protoss could be accurately described as "mass tempest". Terran still go bio more often than not and while a couple Tempests for Medivac sniping are nice if you can afford them, they really aren't a great way to handle Terran bio. Its really only in PvZ where you see a lot of Tempests, and even then I'd hardly describe it as "mass Tempest", more like a supporting force to go with Voids and HTs.
On January 18 2013 13:24 avilo wrote: So, even easier mode now to power to 60 drones. And if you get in trouble ever, you now can essentially cloak them all.
This hardly makes it easier to power to 60 drones.
Wrong. With burrow at hatchery tech (100/100 is incredibly easy to afford).
See, this is why you cant be taken seriously.
Edit : Considering how hard you cried about the queen buff, you of all people should know what's an exponential investment
There isn't any matchup in HotS in which the metagame for Protoss could be accurately described as "mass tempest". Terran still go bio more often than not and while a couple Tempests for Medivac sniping are nice if you can afford them, they really aren't a great way to handle Terran bio. Its really only in PvZ where you see a lot of Tempests, and even then I'd hardly describe it as "mass Tempest", more like a supporting force to go with Voids and HTs.
Stop using the word metagame if you don't understand it properly.
Mass tempest + HT is a "super composition" which the other races lack the proper tools to deal with.
They produce way too fast, so I'm not even sure that avilo's fix would be the right one. Imo they need to make them more expensive and way slower to build. It is not cool with a massable 15 range air unit.
The burrow change just mean zerg can potentially get burrow 80 second faster cause they don't have to wait till lair is finish. Tunnelling Claw still require lair. Stop making it sound like the end of the world. I'm happy there are so much more things that can kill me.
On January 18 2013 13:53 IamPryda wrote: tier 1 burrowed roaches are just retarded now that mothership core cant detect
What exactly is retarded about them? The health regen has to be researched, burrow movement has to be researched. Both of those are t2.
Health regen is free lol
So yeah. Roach aggression. When a roach gets weak, burrow it. Essentially, you can keep pressure forever on a FE terran until they can outright kill the roaches from full health.
On January 18 2013 13:53 IamPryda wrote: tier 1 burrowed roaches are just retarded now that mothership core cant detect
What exactly is retarded about them? The health regen has to be researched, burrow movement has to be researched. Both of those are t2.
Health regen is free lol
So yeah. Roach aggression. When a roach gets weak, burrow it. Essentially, you can keep pressure forever on a FE terran until they can outright kill the roaches from full health.
Zerg players dont use "Roach burrow micro" because they dont need it. They dont even research burrow most of the time and still win.
Protoss players HAVE TO use Blink or Forcefield to make their Stalkers last in a straight up battle and yet Zerg players DONT have to do the same with burrow ... seems really unfair.
On January 18 2013 13:53 IamPryda wrote: tier 1 burrowed roaches are just retarded now that mothership core cant detect
What exactly is retarded about them? The health regen has to be researched, burrow movement has to be researched. Both of those are t2.
Health regen is free lol
So yeah. Roach aggression. When a roach gets weak, burrow it. Essentially, you can keep pressure forever on a FE terran until they can outright kill the roaches from full health.
Zerg players dont use "Roach burrow micro" because they dont need it. They dont even research burrow most of the time and still win.
Protoss players HAVE TO use Blink or Forcefield to make their Stalkers last in a straight up battle and yet Zerg players DONT have to do the same with burrow ... seems really unfair.
Every toss basically forge fe so no real worry there you can get an extra cannon.
As Terran with the reaper it is easy to scout a roach burrow all in. Save a scan.
Hardly anyone will notice this change. It might lead to a few cool plays here and there. The fact is the cost early game is significant. If it gets scouted you will be behind. 100 gas that early makes some crazy early all in worthless. What damage is 4 burrowing roaches going to do?
There isn't any matchup in HotS in which the metagame for Protoss could be accurately described as "mass tempest". Terran still go bio more often than not and while a couple Tempests for Medivac sniping are nice if you can afford them, they really aren't a great way to handle Terran bio. Its really only in PvZ where you see a lot of Tempests, and even then I'd hardly describe it as "mass Tempest", more like a supporting force to go with Voids and HTs.
Which is why he was talking about MECH. And zerg. Not bio. Not PvP. You need to read his post better.
And I agree with him on this one. If course terrans go bio most of the time. They have to, or get killed by a mass tempest centric build.
I´m curious howl meaningful this burrow change will be. Reaper still look bit clueless in term of usage, I personaly just make one to scout and few hp are not going to change that. As for VR, yes it is strong: Except now it not only costs a lot and buils really slowly but it also eats up load of supply.
On January 18 2013 16:04 FLuE wrote: I really think in 98% of games it's a non issue.
Just think about ZvZ early game which is lots of Zerglings and possibly some Banelings. What will happen if one player gets burrow early and simply burrows some Banelings on his entrances? The opponent wont have detection yet since he wont have hive yet and thus the excitement of "ling/bling vs ling/bling" will be taken out, because you cant be sure you will not run over burrowed Banelings and lose everything there and then. That simply makes players too safe and removes excitement. Its going to be noticeable on more than 2% of the games.
Rofl! "Since we don't see a unit being microed aggainst, let's put a one dimensional way of micro, so that from beta till the next expansion players will be doing the same kind of micro." Seriously .... I thought they had learned something from the entomb.
It'd be cool if when you activated the void ray stim thing it reduced the void ray's SHIELD armour by 1 or 2. This would allow it to get negative armour as well granting bonus damage to enemy attacks. Also, makes sense from a lore stand point; the voidray drains power from its shields to power its weapon.
On January 18 2013 13:35 avilo wrote: Also i'm surprised the tempest is still at 4 supply instead of put back up to 6 or even 8. Mass tempests in Protoss lategame is not fun, nor entertaining to watch or play/play against. Not to mention Z lategame has no answer to it, and T mech as well has no answer.
What is going on? So much stuff to be addressed that isn't, TVP mech viability COUGHS*
But I guess the order of importance is +10 reaper HP first...
Yeah, I too agree that the Tempest should have it's supply raised to 6 or more. Remember that Blizzard can't honestly do all the right changes at the same time. Just let these things to mature as people will do the testing.
On January 18 2013 13:53 IamPryda wrote: tier 1 burrowed roaches are just retarded now that mothership core cant detect
What exactly is retarded about them? The health regen has to be researched, burrow movement has to be researched. Both of those are t2.
Health regen is free lol
So yeah. Roach aggression. When a roach gets weak, burrow it. Essentially, you can keep pressure forever on a FE terran until they can outright kill the roaches from full health.
Zerg players dont use "Roach burrow micro" because they dont need it. They dont even research burrow most of the time and still win.
Protoss players HAVE TO use Blink or Forcefield to make their Stalkers last in a straight up battle and yet Zerg players DONT have to do the same with burrow ... seems really unfair.
Every toss basically forge fe so no real worry there you can get an extra cannon.
As Terran with the reaper it is easy to scout a roach burrow all in. Save a scan.
Hardly anyone will notice this change. It might lead to a few cool plays here and there. The fact is the cost early game is significant. If it gets scouted you will be behind. 100 gas that early makes some crazy early all in worthless. What damage is 4 burrowing roaches going to do?
I really think in 98% of games it's a non issue.
Save a scan to kill them with...a reaper? That a terran can somehow afford while still having defense against roaches. Maybe if the scan itself killed the roaches this would work.
Voidray lategame is to strong, lets increase the supply? Broodlord + Infestor imba since months, still no increase óf the supply of the imbalords. And then Burrow buff ?? So no 3 base for Protoss without Robo? Rly dumb Blizzard rly.
I gotta say I almost like these changes. Almost, because this is another patch changing early game, encouraging to play aggressively or all-ins. I would rather love seeing late game changes, especially for Terran.
Oracle is not a detector, people (especially zerg advocates) seems to not understand this, oracle got an abilty for detection, are two very different things. Oracle pops out with 50 mana, if you want to afford a ground push you need at least 100, 50 for a safe travel, and 50 for the engage, this means you build an oracle and you have to wait 100seconds idle with your oracle before anything, pretty dumb. Atm Robo is the only way to get a decent mobile detection, stop saying bullshits like "hey man you got an observer from the stargate ohoho"
So aggression against zerg just got smashed with burrow. I do a 4gate sentry pressure build against Zerg that is pretty non comital and Z can handle easily if they scout. Now something that allowed for aggression gets shut down because of a fucking hatchery tech upgrade.
Burrow : let's see new timing could be interesting, maybe Z will not just defand until brood and infest. Void: so stupid.... If you want micro just decrease damage without prismatic. Remove timer ^^. Terran : I don't care, feel like reaper is just like a speed ling, for scout and low arrassing if not numerous. Why not. Will the game be ready for 12 march 2013? for sure not
Blizzard asks for feedback from highest level pro #892634
BLIZZ: So, what do you think about the Void Ray? RANDOM PRO: It's hard to fight against it with it's extended range mechanic... BLIZZ: So you mean you can't see when the ability is used, right? RANDOM PRO: No, it's just.. the range.. BLIZZ: So if we put an ugly timer there, you would micro, right? Micro more, right? RANDOM PRO: It's not... that's not the problem..it's strong ag-... BLIZZ: Oh, so you also want us to increase it's supply cost, right? It's gonna be better, right? RANDOM PRO: If you would just get rid of the extend.. BLIZZ: We got it, we got it. If there would be a timer you would micro, right? Micro against it, right? At the highest level, right? Micro more, right? Right? MORE MICRO? WOULD YOU? YEAH? RIGHT? SUPPLY INCREASE AND TIMER, RIGHT? YOU SAID IT, RIGHT? NOW GO AND MICRO, AND THE HIGHEST LEVEL RIGHT RIGHT WE HELPED RIGHT AMAZIN MICRO RIGHT RANDOM PRO: [User has disconnected.]
On January 18 2013 07:37 TeeTS wrote: burrow in hatch tech, wtf? Do they even know their own game a little bit? burrowed banelings in hatchery tech sounds like a fucking joke. But it seems it's still just Blizzard (un)balancing the game.
won't you be happy to see gimmicky styles against mass marines?
is this seriously all they could think of doing in this patch? seems very lazy to me. Reapers should just be removed from the game in my opinion, its an impossible unit to balance.
On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote: wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot
I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in?
Very interesting question! Banelings mines! roaches can be under the sentries! Ambush tactics! Toss will need to bring an observer to nullify the tactic., delaying immortals and the push more.
Anyone else supremely worried about ZvP. I mean, Toss goes FFE, or anything that involves a slightly delayed robo and all zerg has to do is make 7 roaches with burrow. Snipe cannon then every 10 seconds roaches have full HP again. Maybe I''m not sure of the timings yet but thats the first problem that came to mind. Otherwise good changes!
On January 18 2013 17:48 InVerno wrote: Oracle is not a detector, people (especially zerg advocates) seems to not understand this, oracle got an abilty for detection, are two very different things. Oracle pops out with 50 mana, if you want to afford a ground push you need at least 100, 50 for a safe travel, and 50 for the engage, this means you build an oracle and you have to wait 100seconds idle with your oracle before anything, pretty dumb. Atm Robo is the only way to get a decent mobile detection, stop saying bullshits like "hey man you got an observer from the stargate ohoho"
This is just whining now. Terrans had to work like this forever. Would you rather it was back to WoL and only observers and Cannons were detectors?
Oh yeah and I hope to god this timer on the void ray is some kind of joke. For example: Imagine every time a zergling was morphing there was a timer on top of it saying how long there was left till it turned into a baneling. Imagine every time siege tanks started to siege/unsiege there was a timer counting that. Imagine every time EVERY TIME ANY ABILITY WAS USED THERE WAS A TIMER SHOWING HOW LONG IT TOOK FOR SAID ABILITY TO WEAR OFF/TAKE EFFECT. ITS bad enough as it is with worker counters on top of our buildings, but this, if this stays in the game I will be sorely disappointed in Blizzard. They are trying to make the game more casual and such but this is just ridiculous. Work on custom maps/features rather than hurting the competitiveness and skill cap of the ACTUAL game. Eg. Casual People play LoL for things like ARAM and hardly ever play ranked. Please just thinked about it Blizzard....
On January 18 2013 19:51 Skiblet wrote: Anyone else supremely worried about ZvP. I mean, Toss goes FFE, or anything that involves a slightly delayed robo and all zerg has to do is make 7 roaches with burrow. Snipe cannon then every 10 seconds roaches have full HP again. Maybe I''m not sure of the timings yet but thats the first problem that came to mind. Otherwise good changes!
Burrowed roach regenerates 5 life per second. So it is not 10s but 27s at worst. That is enough for toss to build a new round of units and put some cannons further back. With MSC toss early defense has never been better and allowed toss to go greedy early expands. This just means if you see roaches being build make +1 cannon then you would normally.
Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.
Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.
It'll also make baneling bombs a massive issue at a stage of the game where mobile detection is hard to get... Bad move imho.
On January 18 2013 20:22 ChromeBallz wrote: Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.
Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.
It'll also make baneling bombs a massive issue at a stage of the game where mobile detection is hard to get... Bad move imho.
Exactly this. Zerg already has TOO MUCH base denial options atm, and now it get's even worse...
I would also like to see a creep nerf in HOTS. Why? I was watching IEM, and TLO planted a hatchery forward, cancelled it, and put tumors on it. You can't believe how fast the creep spreaded. This was my post + goswser's reaction:
On January 17 2013 23:10 Snowbear wrote: I wonder what terrans can do about this creep madness? You can't really be agressive early game, because if you are, you are allinning, and we all know how viable terran allins are against zerg.. If you are passive, creep will be everywhere, which means 1) you have to fight on creep (= not cost efficient), and 2) it's hard to take a 4th.
Terran actually can't do anything, in my experience. They just must play standard from a disadvantage. It only costs zerg 75 minerals for the cancel, and the 4 queen opening is standard anyways, so there really isn't any downside to the zerg.
I have no problem with a race having the best macro options. I don't have a problem with the same race having the strongest army in the game. What I have problems with is that the same race also has the best expansion denial options, the best vision (creep and overlords) and a unit that counters everything (infestor).
On January 17 2013 23:10 Snowbear wrote: I wonder what terrans can do about this creep madness? You can't really be agressive early game, because if you are, you are allinning, and we all know how viable terran allins are against zerg.. If you are passive, creep will be everywhere, which means 1) you have to fight on creep (= not cost efficient), and 2) it's hard to take a 4th.
Terran actually can't do anything, in my experience. They just must play standard from a disadvantage. It only costs zerg 75 minerals for the cancel, and the 4 queen opening is standard anyways, so there really isn't any downside to the zerg.
I have no problem with a race having the best macro options. I don't have a problem with the same race having the strongest army in the game. What I have problems with is that the same race also has the best expansion denial options, the best vision (creep and overlords) and a unit that counters everything (infestor).
You forgot "the most free units of all races" in the list.
- buffed Terran air armor - no upgrades for Infesteds - fungal have 10 less damage against armored units - widow mines can clear mass infesteds - lower health of IT eggs means they're weaker against sieges and widows - hellbats can 2-shot them - protoss can recall if there is a lot of IT around. Infestors lose all energy, protoss loses nothing. - storms can kill 80hp IT eggs - tempests can snipe infestors and broods, HT can feedback. Why tempests are better, because they can fire at infestors and not be fungaled. Maybe only abducted, so it becomes more balanced. - you can slow infestors with warp-field and storm/feedback them more effectively - phoenix can avoid fungal projectile with high speed and lift up infestors
On January 18 2013 20:22 ChromeBallz wrote: Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.
Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.
Burrow is a waste of 100 gas in the early game. Use your own gas to make a Raven/Observer as a counter.
A lot of people seem to be getting "Burrow" confused with burrowed movement. Zerg will be able to upgrade burrow at tier 1, NOT burrowed movement. That will remain on Lair tech.
mirco against void ray? It doesn't matter if there is a timer or not, that is not the problem. The real problem is the stupid chasing attack that is not possible to kite void ray with carrier, tempest, corruptor. You either overpower the void rays with more units or just don't engaged them until you have enough units to handle them.
1- buffed Terran air armor 2- no upgrades for Infesteds 3- fungal have 10 less damage against armored units 4- widow mines can clear mass infesteds 5- lower health of IT eggs means they're weaker against sieges and widows 6- hellbats can 2-shot them 7- protoss can recall if there is a lot of IT around. Infestors lose all energy, protoss loses nothing. 8- storms can kill 80hp IT eggs 9- tempests can snipe infestors and broods, HT can feedback. Why tempests are better, because they can fire at infestors and not be fungaled. Maybe only abducted, so it becomes more balanced. 10- you can slow infestors with warp-field and storm/feedback them more effectively 11- phoenix can avoid fungal projectile with high speed and lift up infestors
it's funny that you call many of those an "infestor-nerf"
1- it applys on any opponent unit on any mu 2- that's a nerf 3- another nerf 4- you cant focus fire with widow mines nor manually detonate lol 5- ok but enemy units don't target it since they are low-priority target 6- so? hellbats have a good attack but it's not an infestor-nerf 7- seems fair, since zerg got a lot of free units like it, locust and broodlings 8- nope, they remain with 1 hp, regen you know? anyway it's not a nerf to infestor 9- they need vision, anyway these are mechanics not infestor nerf 10- mechanics again, not nerfs 11- mechanics again...and again...and again...lol
seriously zerg needs a fix ASAP, hots is less then 2 months away and many issues has not yet been addressed how can you let the race with the most explosive macro be so strong in defense, that's paradoxical
and i'm not speaking about terran and protoss issues
Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.
Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.
It'll also make baneling bombs a massive issue at a stage of the game where mobile detection is hard to get... Bad move imho.
Exactly this. Zerg already has TOO MUCH base denial options atm, and now it get's even worse...
If I wanted to block your expansion I would use the 100 gas for a lair and block with an overlord. It would block it faster and for longer once you noticed its blocked. Toss have two units that detect as well as cannons, it would be silly of me to get fast burrow just to block expansions. Terran have two orbitals and turrets before they usually takes their third.
The only use I've found with fast burrow is to get an easy win against gasless terrans.
On January 18 2013 17:48 InVerno wrote: Oracle is not a detector, people (especially zerg advocates) seems to not understand this, oracle got an abilty for detection, are two very different things. Oracle pops out with 50 mana, if you want to afford a ground push you need at least 100, 50 for a safe travel, and 50 for the engage, this means you build an oracle and you have to wait 100seconds idle with your oracle before anything, pretty dumb. Atm Robo is the only way to get a decent mobile detection, stop saying bullshits like "hey man you got an observer from the stargate ohoho"
This is just whining now. Terrans had to work like this forever. Would you rather it was back to WoL and only observers and Cannons were detectors?
I was hoping someone would make this comment because I was just about to say something on this myself at this horrendous misconception everyone seems to have about the Oracle.
No. Terrans haven't had to "work like this forever". An Oracle requires Pylon>Gateway>Cyber Core>Stargate to build and costs a lot of gas. An Orbital Command requires Supply Depot>Barracks to build and costs only minerals.
The only way you'd get something comparable is if orbitals couldn't scan and your only detection other than the Raven was a scan ability on the Ghost. The Oracle can temporarily detect but it isn't a detector, thats the important part. Which means any army movement is going to absolutely require an observer with earlier burrow available.
Also I find it highly amusing that so many Zerg are going "well every Protoss just FFEs anyway so its a non-issue". However apparently its unacceptable for Protoss to say that mech being unviable for Terran is a non-issue because they all go bio. Lovely double standards there.
On January 18 2013 20:22 ChromeBallz wrote: Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.
Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.
Burrow is a waste of 100 gas in the early game. Use your own gas to make a Raven/Observer as a counter.
-_-
Do I even need to point out the huge cost difference between 100 gas burrow and teching to and getting an Observer (175 gas) or Raven (425 gas!)?
The reason is that you got 2 units that can snipe infestors - Ravens and Battlecruisers. And both will start with upgraded armor, because you're doing mech-build which includes mech upgrades. More armor for air units means Infested Terrans become less strong against air, including nerfed anti-armored damage of fungal
you cant focus fire with widow mines nor manually detonate lol
But they will trigger to closest units. If they target lings, then 2 splash shots will kill half of eggs. If they hit infesteds, so then more eggs will be with splash and some of them can die. And I don't talk about siege tank support.
ok but enemy units don't target it since they are low-priority target
Same as widow mines. They have 19 attack priority. Lesser than other units.
so? hellbats have a good attack but it's not an infestor-nerf
Any buff that works against infestors = infestor nerf. You got more tools to counter infestors. So instead nerfing Blizzard buffed terrans. And I like that design direction
nope, they remain with 1 hp, regen you know? anyway it's not a nerf to infestor
It's an indirect to Infestors, because they can't create 200 unkillable eggs, and you can easier deal with them with storms, warp fields, colossies or just recall. More tools means less trong imba things. Instead nerfing Blizzard buffed options to counter it. Another point of good design direction
they need vision, anyway these are mechanics not infestor nerf
Oracles provide vision with revelation. And it's an indirect infestor nerf via buffing tools against it.
10- mechanics again, not nerfs 11- mechanics again...and again...and again...lol
Mechanics that alows to fight with infestors more effectively. You can dodge Fungal projectile and save your phoenixes from stun. Zerg requires more micro to use Fungal. So it's another indirect nerf to Infestors - harder to use them, and it looks interesting too and probably balanced.
You will stop whine about Infestors only when they will be deleted from the game. So silly
I did some ladder and i must say the burrow change for zerg is quite exciting. Roach early pressure are a real pain in the ass right now. Zerg has now an early repeat harass ability with some regen mechanism as protoss have with shielded units and terran with the new reapers. So everyone got early regen ability all different on their own and i think this reward good micro overall. So it's goooooooood!
I play exclusively 3 rax reaper and i would say that the HP buf was unnecessary as reaper were already very strong in all matchups. I actually expected a nerf of some sort. I guess at pro level people can deal with it with much ease so why the HP buff.
I dont see a big deal with burrow change, by the time the Z player get resources and research burrow it would be easy for T and P deal with it (I dont know about Z). Even more, a T1 Burrow research can delay speed upgrade for zerlings or hive upgrade.
Everyone is overreacting to the burrow change. If you don't have a command center/nexus planted before zerg has burrow, you are bad and deserve to lose. Zergling burrow might be able to deny an earlier third that a lair tech burrow ling couldn't, but that is another story. And by that time everyone can waste a scan/have mobile detection.
I'm more concerned about early burrowed roaches. Since they heal 5 hp/s when burrowed. I'm guessing that robo play will become standard once again in PvZ.
I'm more concerned about early burrowed roaches. Since they heal 5 hp/s when burrowed. I'm guessing that robo play will become standard once again in PvZ.
Void Rays can wipe roaches quickly, and Oracles can detect also
I'm more concerned about early burrowed roaches. Since they heal 5 hp/s when burrowed. I'm guessing that robo play will become standard once again in PvZ.
Void Rays can wipe roaches quickly, and Oracles can detect also
Yep, didn't think of that. So no need for alarm guys..
Watching these vods, the author points out something interesting: it looks as though you can now bait widow mines with burrow micro and take only the splash part of the damage.
In the video he clearly unburrows a low-hp roach, which activates a widow mine. He reburrows before the projectile hits, and the roach only takes splash damage.
The reason is that you got 2 units that can snipe infestors - Ravens and Battlecruisers. And both will start with upgraded armor, because you're doing mech-build which includes mech upgrades. More armor for air units means Infested Terrans become less strong against air, including nerfed anti-armored damage of fungal
you cant focus fire with widow mines nor manually detonate lol
But they will trigger to closest units. If they target lings, then 2 splash shots will kill half of eggs. If they hit infesteds, so then more eggs will be with splash and some of them can die. And I don't talk about siege tank support.
so? hellbats have a good attack but it's not an infestor-nerf
Any buff that works against infestors = infestor nerf. You got more tools to counter infestors. So instead nerfing Blizzard buffed terrans. And I like that design direction
nope, they remain with 1 hp, regen you know? anyway it's not a nerf to infestor
It's an indirect to Infestors, because they can't create 200 unkillable eggs, and you can easier deal with them with storms, warp fields, colossies or just recall. More tools means less trong imba things. Instead nerfing Blizzard buffed options to counter it. Another point of good design direction
10- mechanics again, not nerfs 11- mechanics again...and again...and again...lol
Mechanics that alows to fight with infestors more effectively. You can dodge Fungal projectile and save your phoenixes from stun.
Zerg requires more micro to use Fungal. So it's another indirect nerf to Infestors - harder to use them, and it looks interesting too and probably balanced.
You will stop whine about Infestors only when they will be deleted from the game. So silly
lol, just lol @ everything you wrote
zerg requires more micro to use fungal, pffffffff "indirect nerfs to infestors"
On January 18 2013 21:57 drkcid wrote: I dont see a big deal with burrow change, by the time the Z player get resources and research burrow it would be easy for T and P deal with it (I dont know about Z). Even more, a T1 Burrow research can delay speed upgrade for zerlings or hive upgrade.
I think your case only stands in the current ZvX meta game, where you only get enough gas from a single gayser for ling speed, or not getting any gas at all before 3 bases. I feel like with this change, zergs may try and experiment with early gas openings, getting 2 gases and then research both ling speed and burrow, which should be early enough vs most robo/stargate timings protosses can throw at you. You'll force terrans to waste scans too instead of muling, which takes away a big advantage from their early game. Al though as a protoss player, i don't know what ways exactly can zergs use burrow to be aggressive. maybe burrow roach micro or baneling landmines? Speaking of baneling landmines ZvZ early to mid game will get a whole lot crazy with early burrow :D
On January 18 2013 20:22 ChromeBallz wrote: Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.
Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.
Burrow is a waste of 100 gas in the early game. Use your own gas to make a Raven/Observer as a counter.
Not for Baneling defense ... where the threat of it alone will make Zerg invulnerable to any attacks without detector ... so basically any small size attack. Early Marine drops or rushes? Not going to be scary anymore ...
I really like the burrow to hatchery tech change, but for once I really wish that they buffed gateway units in favor of "deathball" units such as Collosi.
On January 18 2013 12:10 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: A timer is just stupid, seriously.
Have an icon pop up like stim that'll blink as it wears off AND/OR have the beam glow a different hue, e.g. darker hue. Right now its so subtle, its hard to tell the beam got bigger from the overlap from more than one beam or if prismatic alignment was used.
Agreed, I don't know what it looks like yet but the idea of a massive digital clock appearing above every single VR just seems like a ridiculous image. There must be a better way to do it, I also hate the way a unit lights up bright red when they're targeted by a seeker missile. It's so blindingly obvious and easy to move the unit away, what was wrong with the old version with a thin discreet line? You can still see which unit/s are targeted but you need to be paying attention (hard to do in a large maxed supply battle). When you're unit's are lit up in ALERT ALERT ALERT bright red only the most incompetent players wont retreat in time and it looks so dumb. The timer on the VR will have the same silly appearance.
I meant against air. They must cast it more smart to hit quick air units. Against ground units it remains same, just less damage against armored units.
On January 18 2013 20:22 ChromeBallz wrote: Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.
Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.
Burrow is a waste of 100 gas in the early game. Use your own gas to make a Raven/Observer as a counter.
Not for Baneling defense ... where the threat of it alone will make Zerg invulnerable to any attacks without detector ... so basically any small size attack. Early Marine drops or rushes? Not going to be scary anymore ...
Presumably the threat of widow mines alone makes Terran invulnerable to any attacks without detector...?
On January 18 2013 13:53 IamPryda wrote: tier 1 burrowed roaches are just retarded now that mothership core cant detect
What exactly is retarded about them? The health regen has to be researched, burrow movement has to be researched. Both of those are t2.
Health regen is free lol
So yeah. Roach aggression. When a roach gets weak, burrow it. Essentially, you can keep pressure forever on a FE terran until they can outright kill the roaches from full health.
Zerg players dont use "Roach burrow micro" because they dont need it. They dont even research burrow most of the time and still win.
Protoss players HAVE TO use Blink or Forcefield to make their Stalkers last in a straight up battle and yet Zerg players DONT have to do the same with burrow ... seems really unfair.
Every toss basically forge fe so no real worry there you can get an extra cannon.
As Terran with the reaper it is easy to scout a roach burrow all in. Save a scan.
Hardly anyone will notice this change. It might lead to a few cool plays here and there. The fact is the cost early game is significant. If it gets scouted you will be behind. 100 gas that early makes some crazy early all in worthless. What damage is 4 burrowing roaches going to do?
I really think in 98% of games it's a non issue.
Save a scan to kill them with...a reaper? That a terran can somehow afford while still having defense against roaches. Maybe if the scan itself killed the roaches this would work.
And when did roach aggression become all in?
In what world do I have enough roaches to do serious damage with burrow and you only have a reaper? If I go let's say 1 base 7RR, the 100 gas of burrow means that's now a 3RR with burrow. Plus your reaper should scout this and obviously see it is coming. Say on the other hand I go with an FE to burrow rush, again should be fairly easy to scout and you can have plenty of options at that point. I can't afford burrow and move to hit some timing so if you save a scan and I try some cute burrow micro you will clean it up. There are very few players who have such great micro that they would rather have burrow than 4 more roaches to hit an early timing.
As a Zerg I'm way more concerned about scouting and being ready for fast widow mines than when I play Terran worried about burrow.
What this might do, like the Phoenix build buff, is simply draw attention to burrow so people get it more often but you can still get it pretty fast before if you wanted and people still rarely upgraded it. It's a huge early game investment that will put you behind if you get it and do nothing productive with it.
I swear people can up with stuff and don't even think it through. Stop acting like Zerg gets free burrow.
On January 18 2013 23:12 FLuE wrote: In what world do I have enough roaches to do serious damage with burrow and you only have a reaper? If I go let's say 1 base 7RR, the 100 gas of burrow means that's now a 3RR with burrow.
I know gas != minerals exactly, but you're only swapping out about two roaches of resources mined for burrow, if you adjust when you take your gas.
Also, burrow means retention. That alllows your reinforcements (which are as fast as ever) to snowball, so although you might have fewer roaches to begin with, or hit slightly later, it's no longer just about one big punch. Nor is it no longer the rule that you need speedlings in order to reinforce quickly enough: roach retention with burrow means you can reinforce with more roaches instead.
On January 18 2013 22:09 Millet wrote: Everyone is overreacting to the burrow change. If you don't have a command center/nexus planted before zerg has burrow, you are bad and deserve to lose. Zergling burrow might be able to deny an earlier third that a lair tech burrow ling couldn't, but that is another story. And by that time everyone can waste a scan/have mobile detection.
I'm more concerned about early burrowed roaches. Since they heal 5 hp/s when burrowed. I'm guessing that robo play will become standard once again in PvZ.
why robo play? stargate is already standard and deals with roaches much better, and also gives you detection
On January 18 2013 23:52 AdrianHealey wrote: I can't imagine that getting burrow so fast can be worth it, unless for some gimmicky defense tactics.
If anything it helps with scouting by placing zerglings at expansions and key areas much earlier. Uing burrow with drones is kind of wasteful imo because thats mining time you are missing when they are burrowed.
The fact that blizzard is actually doing this change to the game, tells that it is not gonna break the game. And like said previously, zerg has to use gas on more important upgrades than burrow so burrow really comes later than you are thinking.
On January 18 2013 22:29 Umpteen wrote: Watching these vods, the author points out something interesting: it looks as though you can now bait widow mines with burrow micro and take only the splash part of the damage.
In the video he clearly unburrows a low-hp roach, which activates a widow mine. He reburrows before the projectile hits, and the roach only takes splash damage.
This is actually very cool. Micro mechanics like this is what makes the game interesting, if you are complaining about this I say bully to you.
Many of these situations people are talking about burrow being useful are times when you'd already have a lair and could have gotten burrow anyway yet people STILL DON'T.
Again, if anything maybe this change sheds light on what burrow is able to do so people end up using it more, just like when they made phoenix build faster and then people realized they were better than originally thought.
But nobody is spending 100/100 super early game(before lair) simply to scout, or block a 3rd expansion.
Some of the theorycrafting in this thread doesn't even make sense...
On January 18 2013 20:22 ChromeBallz wrote: Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.
Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.
Burrow is a waste of 100 gas in the early game. Use your own gas to make a Raven/Observer as a counter.
Not for Baneling defense ... where the threat of it alone will make Zerg invulnerable to any attacks without detector ... so basically any small size attack. Early Marine drops or rushes? Not going to be scary anymore ...
Presumably the threat of widow mines alone makes Terran invulnerable to any attacks without detector...?
As far as I know you can see them but not target them without detection now?
I havent said anything about the Widow Mine being a well designed unit ... its pretty terrible, because there is zero synergy with any other Terran unit and the only purpose is scouting / drop / anti-harrass defense. BOTH things are terrible IMO.
On January 18 2013 07:43 Rad wrote: Tacking on a timer sounds really lazy. If it's hard for people to tell that the voids are in kill everything mode, improve the visuals slightly, don't just tack on a timer that screams "BACK AWAY!!"
Thumbs up on the burrow change. Dunno about reaper change. Don't like the increase in void supply.
Isn't the timer only for the protoss, to see that his ability is active?
VoidRay changes are fine. Reaper buff is from my perspective (P) warranted - what about TvT, I think that is where Reapers were used a lot - is this change fine for that match-up? I'm still very skeptical about the burrow change. I doubt this will make it to release.
On January 18 2013 22:29 Umpteen wrote: Watching these vods, the author points out something interesting: it looks as though you can now bait widow mines with burrow micro and take only the splash part of the damage.
In the video he clearly unburrows a low-hp roach, which activates a widow mine. He reburrows before the projectile hits, and the roach only takes splash damage.
This is actually very cool. Micro mechanics like this is what makes the game interesting, if you are complaining about this I say bully to you.
Fully agree. Some of the most loved aspects of BW were uintended programming "glitches" that people could exploit, with good micro, for an advantage. It rewards people with the attention, multi-tasking, APM and micro to pull it off. If it's true, I hope they leave it in.
OH YEAH baby, burrow before lair, burrow before lair, yes yes yes edit: on the other hand... not sure if roaches aren't going to become too strong in early game now i could see them changing roaches to not be able to use burrow without lair, or something like that
On January 19 2013 02:11 ACrow wrote: VoidRay changes are fine. Reaper buff is from my perspective (P) warranted - what about TvT, I think that is where Reapers were used a lot - is this change fine for that match-up? I'm still very skeptical about the burrow change. I doubt this will make it to release.
Reapers have the damage of a Queen/Workers . Them having more HP doesn't change shit. They now are purely a scout and only on Maps with Cliffs everywhere actually useful. With the 40 seconds buildtime and laughable damage nobody will get Reapers beyond earlygame. There's no reason to get them later for scouting because they don't fly . I could put them at expansions but i might as well put a Marine there .
On January 18 2013 22:29 Umpteen wrote: Watching these vods, the author points out something interesting: it looks as though you can now bait widow mines with burrow micro and take only the splash part of the damage.
In the video he clearly unburrows a low-hp roach, which activates a widow mine. He reburrows before the projectile hits, and the roach only takes splash damage.
This is actually very cool. Micro mechanics like this is what makes the game interesting, if you are complaining about this I say bully to you.
It says a lot about these threads that I can call something interesting and people think I'm complaining.
I think the voidray change is a move in the wrong direction. Part of voidrays issues are that they have such a weird cost/supply ratio compared to most units that causes them to either trade supply or cost effeciently with too many things.
I would rather see something like this.
Void cost reduced to 150/100/3 supply (same as banshee) Damage: 6(+4 Armored), +3 more armored while overcharged. Fire rate: .5. Dps of 12, 20 armored, 26 overcharge armored. Better than a banshee while charged, same on armor uncharged, worse on light units. Also less burst. HP: 60 Shields, 80 Health, 1 Armor Range 5, only attacks ground now
What you get is a more specific version of the banshee without stealth but ends up being a bit tougher and slower moving. In order to avoid the corruptors now beating all protoss air, and keep other air dynamics the same or better we need 1 more change... this time to the phoenix.
Phoenix: Damage: Changed from 5x2(+5 light) to 7x2(+3 light). Causes phoenix to trade roughly even with corruptors, and win a bit better with kiting after the APC upgrade. Phoenix still beat vikings, bit harder now though. Phoenix still lose to BC's/Carrier's but are a bit less hard countered. Ta-daa, much more balanced. Only issue that i can see is with lifting queens/other armored units.
Other problem with voids is that they are a pretty boring a-move units, mostly due to their low speed and lack of micro abilities other than the protoss air equivalent of stim.
On January 18 2013 22:29 Umpteen wrote: Watching these vods, the author points out something interesting: it looks as though you can now bait widow mines with burrow micro and take only the splash part of the damage.
In the video he clearly unburrows a low-hp roach, which activates a widow mine. He reburrows before the projectile hits, and the roach only takes splash damage.
This is actually very cool. Micro mechanics like this is what makes the game interesting, if you are complaining about this I say bully to you.
It says a lot about these threads that I can call something interesting and people think I'm complaining.
Lol so true. I can understand being passionate about the game, but the negativity and the self-righteousness around the HotS forum isn't really helpful.
On January 19 2013 07:19 AlieN_ wrote: LOL next buff for reaper and why voids cost now 4 supply blizzard why??
Ever used the new Reaper ? It can't do anything but scout anymore might as well allow it to not get killed as easy. It's not like it can really deal damage anymore. This way you might able to actually see something when you suicide your one Reaper you might build to scout.
Btw i really dislike TvT with tanks without siege upgrade. Leads to too much 1-1-1 stuff . It's just as stupid as it was when the Reaper was way too good.
i don´t know how a non zerg can be happy about the burrow. vs any earlygame pressure, burrow your drones, you would lose a queen to a banshee, now burrow annd survive or force a scan. expansion block even earlier and the list goes on.
I don't know how they managed it but with the last 2 Patches Blizzard made HotS even less enjoyable than WoL was/is right now. Feel like a huge clusterfuck right now.
have played a lot of games so far as z and T this patch, burrow isn't really as helpful as lair tech coming earlier vs harass. like sometimes you will save drones vs the harss but lair is later so its less helpful imo. on the other hand, there are alot of good roach all ins now.. the last two games i have had my cc first delayed by a drone pull, on akilon and clos pos star station, then died to a follow up roach burrow attack
Absolutely pointless patch changes by blizzard. I dont understand the point of making all of these highsupply units. The low supply cap compared to supply of units just encourages deathballing because you cant afford to have any units spread across the map. Also when is blizzard going to fix mech? Mech is less viable in HOTS than WOL.
On January 19 2013 10:32 Loccstana wrote: Absolutely pointless patch changes by blizzard. I dont understand the point of making all of these highsupply units. The low supply cap compared to supply of units just encourages deathballing because you cant afford to have any units spread across the map. Also when is blizzard going to fix mech? Mech is less viable in HOTS than WOL.
It doesn't look they can figure out whats wrong with Mech or figured it out and can't fix it without changes they aren't going to introduce 2 months before the Addon.
long time overdue to change void ray supply to 4. They've been sort of like the roaches of SC2 when they were 1 supply, just to a much less-drastic effect. Zerg couldn't kill void rays while staying supply efficient (using same or less supply), aside from something like fungal clumping void rays, or using mass queens (with lots of energy and transfusing). Now I cam assume void rays could at least be defeated supply-wise by hydralisks.
Burrow, also long overdue in my opinion. In fact, for some reason I thought it was available at hatchery at one point long ago? (no I'm not thinking of BW)
Reaper nerf in previous patch was too much, and should deal more damage. Heal buff is fine, makes sense considering the regen upgrade. I guess with more health, and the extra speed, extra damage combined with that might make them too strong.
On January 19 2013 05:09 orakiodg wrote: I think the voidray change is a move in the wrong direction. Part of voidrays issues are that they have such a weird cost/supply ratio compared to most units that causes them to either trade supply or cost effeciently with too many things.
I would rather see something like this.
Void cost reduced to 150/100/3 supply (same as banshee) Damage: 6(+4 Armored), +3 more armored while overcharged. Fire rate: .5. Dps of 12, 20 armored, 26 overcharge armored. Better than a banshee while charged, same on armor uncharged, worse on light units. Also less burst. HP: 60 Shields, 80 Health, 1 Armor Range 5, only attacks ground now
What you get is a more specific version of the banshee without stealth but ends up being a bit tougher and slower moving. In order to avoid the corruptors now beating all protoss air, and keep other air dynamics the same or better we need 1 more change... this time to the phoenix.
Phoenix: Damage: Changed from 5x2(+5 light) to 7x2(+3 light). Causes phoenix to trade roughly even with corruptors, and win a bit better with kiting after the APC upgrade. Phoenix still beat vikings, bit harder now though. Phoenix still lose to BC's/Carrier's but are a bit less hard countered. Ta-daa, much more balanced. Only issue that i can see is with lifting queens/other armored units.
Other problem with voids is that they are a pretty boring a-move units, mostly due to their low speed and lack of micro abilities other than the protoss air equivalent of stim.
That voidray is actually terrible and useless. Banshee is good at killing workers, which is what it winds up doing most games. Cloak is a big help in its survivability and it's dps is consistently good against everything. Your void ray is good only at killing buildings (but not good enough to justify the cost) and armored ground units, which isn't even that much of an issue for a race which has immortals and chargelots -_-.
On January 19 2013 05:09 orakiodg wrote: I think the voidray change is a move in the wrong direction. Part of voidrays issues are that they have such a weird cost/supply ratio compared to most units that causes them to either trade supply or cost effeciently with too many things.
I would rather see something like this.
Void cost reduced to 150/100/3 supply (same as banshee) Damage: 6(+4 Armored), +3 more armored while overcharged. Fire rate: .5. Dps of 12, 20 armored, 26 overcharge armored. Better than a banshee while charged, same on armor uncharged, worse on light units. Also less burst. HP: 60 Shields, 80 Health, 1 Armor Range 5, only attacks ground now
What you get is a more specific version of the banshee without stealth but ends up being a bit tougher and slower moving. In order to avoid the corruptors now beating all protoss air, and keep other air dynamics the same or better we need 1 more change... this time to the phoenix.
Phoenix: Damage: Changed from 5x2(+5 light) to 7x2(+3 light). Causes phoenix to trade roughly even with corruptors, and win a bit better with kiting after the APC upgrade. Phoenix still beat vikings, bit harder now though. Phoenix still lose to BC's/Carrier's but are a bit less hard countered. Ta-daa, much more balanced. Only issue that i can see is with lifting queens/other armored units.
Other problem with voids is that they are a pretty boring a-move units, mostly due to their low speed and lack of micro abilities other than the protoss air equivalent of stim.
both of your ideas are completely horrible
the voidray change goes against everything thats protoss or voidray about the voidray, and phoenix can already kite corruptors and are not supposed at all to trade evenly vs them, plus they would rape all air with that change
Well this finally proves my point, that the game designers and balance team are looking for action games. They want action units and more highly anticipated games, which is fine but it really doesn't seem like they care to much about balancing it out." We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. " Don't worry about balance or anything ; ) Given there is tons of time to balance the game , in my opinion I don't like where the game is going and its evolving into shit ever since brood war ended. I really hope at least they make new exciting maps instead of worrying so much about the action that the units bring. I guess I'll wait and see how everything turns out.
On January 19 2013 16:45 Green Sun s Zenith wrote: Well this finally proves my point, that the game designers and balance team are looking for action games. They want action units and more highly anticipated games, which is fine but it really doesn't seem like they care to much about balancing it out." We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. " Don't worry about balance or anything ; ) Given there is tons of time to balance the game , in my opinion I don't like where the game is going and its evolving into shit ever since brood war ended. I really hope at least they make new exciting maps instead of worrying so much about the action that the units bring. I guess I'll wait and see how everything turns out.
If you think hatch tech burrow is imbalanced you really have a lot to look at. If it's because it "forces out detection earlier" well fuck what do you think we have to do when you protosses go 1 base DT or 2 base DT? We are forced to get detection earlier or well we die.
The complaining is just so so silly, terran can force zerg detection early, protoss can, and zerg can't. Zerg now can and "OMG SO IMBALANCED". Yeah no not even close.
4 supply for a Void Ray, that's shocking whats Blizzard actually thinking with these changes? HOTS is going to be a bad patch by the time they are finished with it
On January 19 2013 16:45 Green Sun s Zenith wrote: Well this finally proves my point, that the game designers and balance team are looking for action games. They want action units and more highly anticipated games, which is fine but it really doesn't seem like they care to much about balancing it out." We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. " Don't worry about balance or anything ; ) Given there is tons of time to balance the game , in my opinion I don't like where the game is going and its evolving into shit ever since brood war ended. I really hope at least they make new exciting maps instead of worrying so much about the action that the units bring. I guess I'll wait and see how everything turns out.
If you think hatch tech burrow is imbalanced you really have a lot to look at. If it's because it "forces out detection earlier" well fuck what do you think we have to do when you protosses go 1 base DT or 2 base DT? We are forced to get detection earlier or well we die.
The complaining is just so so silly, terran can force zerg detection early, protoss can, and zerg can't. Zerg now can and "OMG SO IMBALANCED". Yeah no not even close.
1. How does Protoss force detection? DTs? Not really that early ... unless you REALLY want to risk it, but it should be easy enough to scout. Just scout the gas with your Overlord and then its either DTs or air if the Protoss has used a lot of it and in both cases you could use Spores ...
2. Do you really think that those Terrans and Protoss are happy about the junk they get and yet you "attack them". The Widow Mine doesnt work well enough to be worth having (except in the early game) and the DT is handled easily as well once you do have detection (which is just a few minerals for a Spore Crawler at your entrance). Zerg have had to build NOTHING in their own defense while Protoss and Terrans have had to invest in buildings to keep themselves safe; its time for Zerg to be forced to do the same really to even up the scale a bit as well, but burrow early really gives them too much defense against Hellions, Marines and Zealots ...
3. Did you ever stop and think about the simple ZERG vs ZERG matchup and how it is affected by an early burrow? How about burrowed Banelings on the entrance to your opponents base? Are they there or not? Will you risk running your Zerglings across a potential minefield and lose the game after a few minutes OR will you bunker up yourself as well and provide us with a boring game to watch? Thats the real consequence of early burrow ... ZvZ gets really terrible.
So its better to not assume "he is playing race X" when someone complains about race Y ... better not assume anything at all.
Banelings on the entrance to your opponents base? Are they there or not? Will you risk running your Zerglings across a potential minefield and lose the game after a few minutes
Zerg will have creep at his ramp and spore isn't hard to do.
Banelings on the entrance to your opponents base? Are they there or not? Will you risk running your Zerglings across a potential minefield and lose the game after a few minutes
Zerg will have creep at his ramp and spore isn't hard to do.
I didnt mean you putting Banelings on the ramp of your opponent, but what happens if your opponent already did it himself? How are you going to attack him then? You wont be able to check that because the Overseer requires an upgrade for the Hatchery and thus a lot of gas and time ... so basically early ZvZ with Zerglings is now dead.
You basically get burrow (and a handful of Banelings) right after the first Queen and then Drone up hard behind a screen of burrowed Banelings ... bunkering Zerg style. The beauty is that it works against early Terran ground aggression really well and Protoss basically have to stick to Stalkers or air ...
If you see baneling nest at his base, attack with roaches then? Zerg must burrow 8 banelings to kill roach. Or he can make an ambush with zerglings. But if you buy +1 range attack, no matter how zerglings reached you - via burrow ambush or just a-move from different sides, you will still win that battle, because you'll be able to 2-shot zerglings.
On January 19 2013 16:45 Green Sun s Zenith wrote: Well this finally proves my point, that the game designers and balance team are looking for action games. They want action units and more highly anticipated games, which is fine but it really doesn't seem like they care to much about balancing it out." We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. " Don't worry about balance or anything ; ) Given there is tons of time to balance the game , in my opinion I don't like where the game is going and its evolving into shit ever since brood war ended. I really hope at least they make new exciting maps instead of worrying so much about the action that the units bring. I guess I'll wait and see how everything turns out.
If you think hatch tech burrow is imbalanced you really have a lot to look at. If it's because it "forces out detection earlier" well fuck what do you think we have to do when you protosses go 1 base DT or 2 base DT? We are forced to get detection earlier or well we die.
The complaining is just so so silly, terran can force zerg detection early, protoss can, and zerg can't. Zerg now can and "OMG SO IMBALANCED". Yeah no not even close.
1. How does Protoss force detection? DTs? Not really that early ... unless you REALLY want to risk it, but it should be easy enough to scout. Just scout the gas with your Overlord and then its either DTs or air if the Protoss has used a lot of it and in both cases you could use Spores ...
2. Do you really think that those Terrans and Protoss are happy about the junk they get and yet you "attack them". The Widow Mine doesnt work well enough to be worth having (except in the early game) and the DT is handled easily as well once you do have detection (which is just a few minerals for a Spore Crawler at your entrance). Zerg have had to build NOTHING in their own defense while Protoss and Terrans have had to invest in buildings to keep themselves safe; its time for Zerg to be forced to do the same really to even up the scale a bit as well, but burrow early really gives them too much defense against Hellions, Marines and Zealots ...
3. Did you ever stop and think about the simple ZERG vs ZERG matchup and how it is affected by an early burrow? How about burrowed Banelings on the entrance to your opponents base? Are they there or not? Will you risk running your Zerglings across a potential minefield and lose the game after a few minutes OR will you bunker up yourself as well and provide us with a boring game to watch? Thats the real consequence of early burrow ... ZvZ gets really terrible.
So its better to not assume "he is playing race X" when someone complains about race Y ... better not assume anything at all.
1. DT tech has been made 100gas cheaper. And there are many ways to go DT. And the gas is not telling a lot. Any Protoss tech needs a ton of gas (blink, DT, Robo, Stargate). Just massing sentries needs a ton of gas. Basically any build that is FFE into 3 or 4 rather fast gas is standard in PvZ and NOT taking 3-4 gas smells fishy.
2. Last time I checked "T-Funk" Thorzain was top5 on HotS ladder with mass widow mine bio play vs zerg. Also your arguement just stinks, because the "junk" Protoss and Terrans get and that you compare to burrow is something new. Burrow is something old that gets a small buff comparable to the Dark Shrine buff, and the Reaper buffs.
3. Yeah. If you invest 100 extra gas into defense in ZvZ, whether it is for burrow or for 4more banelings or some roaches I gladly just take the advantage and run with it. But yeah, I'm pretty sure double gas baneling+zergling speed+burrow builds of 20drones will start to pop up everywhere. Because people prefer to flip coins defensively instead of building more units. *sarcasm*
If you see baneling nest at his base, attack with roaches then? Zerg must burrow 8 banelings to kill roach. Or he can make an ambush with zerglings. But if you buy +1 range attack, no matter how zerglings reached you - via burrow ambush or just a-move from different sides, you will still win that battle, because you'll be able to 2-shot zerglings.
The big thing is that Zerglings are basically useless now to attack a Zerg base in the early game ... thats the point I am trying to make ... and thus the available options to choose from have been reduced by one.
On January 18 2013 22:09 Millet wrote: Everyone is overreacting to the burrow change. If you don't have a command center/nexus planted before zerg has burrow, you are bad and deserve to lose. Zergling burrow might be able to deny an earlier third that a lair tech burrow ling couldn't, but that is another story. And by that time everyone can waste a scan/have mobile detection.
I'm more concerned about early burrowed roaches. Since they heal 5 hp/s when burrowed. I'm guessing that robo play will become standard once again in PvZ.
why robo play? stargate is already standard and deals with roaches much better, and also gives you detection
On January 19 2013 16:45 Green Sun s Zenith wrote: Well this finally proves my point, that the game designers and balance team are looking for action games. They want action units and more highly anticipated games, which is fine but it really doesn't seem like they care to much about balancing it out." We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. " Don't worry about balance or anything ; ) Given there is tons of time to balance the game , in my opinion I don't like where the game is going and its evolving into shit ever since brood war ended. I really hope at least they make new exciting maps instead of worrying so much about the action that the units bring. I guess I'll wait and see how everything turns out.
If you think hatch tech burrow is imbalanced you really have a lot to look at. If it's because it "forces out detection earlier" well fuck what do you think we have to do when you protosses go 1 base DT or 2 base DT? We are forced to get detection earlier or well we die.
The complaining is just so so silly, terran can force zerg detection early, protoss can, and zerg can't. Zerg now can and "OMG SO IMBALANCED". Yeah no not even close.
1. How does Protoss force detection? DTs? Not really that early ... unless you REALLY want to risk it, but it should be easy enough to scout. Just scout the gas with your Overlord and then its either DTs or air if the Protoss has used a lot of it and in both cases you could use Spores ...
2. Do you really think that those Terrans and Protoss are happy about the junk they get and yet you "attack them". The Widow Mine doesnt work well enough to be worth having (except in the early game) and the DT is handled easily as well once you do have detection (which is just a few minerals for a Spore Crawler at your entrance). Zerg have had to build NOTHING in their own defense while Protoss and Terrans have had to invest in buildings to keep themselves safe; its time for Zerg to be forced to do the same really to even up the scale a bit as well, but burrow early really gives them too much defense against Hellions, Marines and Zealots ...
3. Did you ever stop and think about the simple ZERG vs ZERG matchup and how it is affected by an early burrow? How about burrowed Banelings on the entrance to your opponents base? Are they there or not? Will you risk running your Zerglings across a potential minefield and lose the game after a few minutes OR will you bunker up yourself as well and provide us with a boring game to watch? Thats the real consequence of early burrow ... ZvZ gets really terrible.
So its better to not assume "he is playing race X" when someone complains about race Y ... better not assume anything at all.
1. DT tech has been made 100gas cheaper. And there are many ways to go DT. And the gas is not telling a lot. Any Protoss tech needs a ton of gas (blink, DT, Robo, Stargate). Just massing sentries needs a ton of gas. Basically any build that is FFE into 3 or 4 rather fast gas is standard in PvZ and NOT taking 3-4 gas smells fishy.
2. Last time I checked "T-Funk" Thorzain was top5 on HotS ladder with mass widow mine bio play vs zerg. Also your arguement just stinks, because the "junk" Protoss and Terrans get and that you compare to burrow is something new. Burrow is something old that gets a small buff comparable to the Dark Shrine buff, and the Reaper buffs.
3. Yeah. If you invest 100 extra gas into defense in ZvZ, whether it is for burrow or for 4more banelings or some roaches I gladly just take the advantage and run with it. But yeah, I'm pretty sure double gas baneling+zergling speed+burrow builds of 20drones will start to pop up everywhere. Because people prefer to flip coins defensively instead of building more units. *sarcasm*
1. My comment was more about "DT rushes", but if you do normal Protoss development they wont be in your base.
2. Since when has any Terran rush-strategy been not nerfed by Blizzard? Reapers and bunker rushes both got nerfed really heavily. So that leaves us with the usefulness of the Widow Mine in an army ... and that practically doesnt exist. Try to combine it with bio and you are playing russian roulette with your bio ball; try to combine it with mech and you have increased your "set up unit numbers" by a lot more while not actually getting any consistent damage ... just some "oooohhh ... aaaahhh ... Spike damage" kinda similar to Banelings and they arent a well designed unit either.
3. Early burrow has the potential to kill off Zergling aggression in a ZvZ and that is a shame, because "very early Zergling army dances" were about the only part where you could really see a skill difference between two players.
people complaining about the burrow buff really have no true knowledge of the game if they dont realize how worthless it is
1) it will NEVER stop your natural if your playing standard toss or terran
2) it will NEVER stop your third at a timing where zerg didnt ALREADY have burrow in WoL. okay fine, maybe slightly slightly there is a chance of this happening, but in that case zerg spent 100/100 to slightly delay your third for a few seconds (lol). protoss should already have an observer, terran just scan
3) it doesnt stop aggression against zerg, because i dont know if youve been watching WoL recently but "early aggression against zerg" pretty much does not exist.. dont know about you but literally every TvZ game in WoL in the last 6months in the pro scene has involved literally 100% of the combat happening after the zerg already has burrow and 3bases. The only kind of action that occurs before that is maybe some hellions and banshees running around the map doing some light pressure, and if zerg burrows his drones to live against the hellions thats a dumb idea because 1scan and thats a ton of roasted drones, but normally in 99% of WoL games the hellions would NEVER even be able to actually fight the drones and they would end up fighting queens. And zergs will not "make burrowed lings and ambush the hellions" because in WoL they spent their larva during this time on drones and in HotS they will also spend it on drones, if the zerg makes lings instead of drones with that early larva then he already has lost that early fight. I guess the only true difference in early TvZ now is the queens have burrow lol. So i guess basically the only thing this changes does is it now the early game is even more boring because the queens will be burrowing against the hellion/banshee harassment now.
never seen a hots PvZ game (or even WoL for that matter) where the protoss doesnt do his first major attack after he has an observer
this burrow change pretty much changes absolutely nothing. i garuntee no zerg will be wasting 100gas on it so early. I literally provides ZERO possibilities or advantages for the zerg to be worth the 100gas so early compared to making drones/hatcheries and using your 1gas for speed/lair. If the zerg makes a 2nd gas to get the faster burrow he already lost and is playing from behind since his faster burrow just gave him the nice benefit of having a snowballing weaker economy for the rest of the game
EDIT: oops, lol. I guess this change does effect ZvZ. funny enough, its the only matchup that changes due to hatchery burrow
Seems like a pretty good patch overall. Reaper change is nice to let them scout a bit easier. Void Ray change is great, they were probably a bit too supply effective in the lategame versus Zerg. Burrow on Hatch tech is pretty interesting, interested to see what the pros come up with regarding this one.
On January 19 2013 19:02 Rabiator wrote: 3. Early burrow has the potential to kill off Zergling aggression in a ZvZ and that is a shame, because "very early Zergling army dances" were about the only part where you could really see a skill difference between two players.
The only part? Really?
Yeah, I mean totally, if he out-micros me, and kill few Zerglings more, while losing few Banelings less, and I just crush him with superior engagements and macro later in the game, yeah I guess he really is better than me.
On January 19 2013 16:45 Green Sun s Zenith wrote: Well this finally proves my point, that the game designers and balance team are looking for action games. They want action units and more highly anticipated games, which is fine but it really doesn't seem like they care to much about balancing it out." We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. " Don't worry about balance or anything ; ) Given there is tons of time to balance the game , in my opinion I don't like where the game is going and its evolving into shit ever since brood war ended. I really hope at least they make new exciting maps instead of worrying so much about the action that the units bring. I guess I'll wait and see how everything turns out.
If you think hatch tech burrow is imbalanced you really have a lot to look at. If it's because it "forces out detection earlier" well fuck what do you think we have to do when you protosses go 1 base DT or 2 base DT? We are forced to get detection earlier or well we die.
The complaining is just so so silly, terran can force zerg detection early, protoss can, and zerg can't. Zerg now can and "OMG SO IMBALANCED". Yeah no not even close.
1. How does Protoss force detection? DTs? Not really that early ... unless you REALLY want to risk it, but it should be easy enough to scout. Just scout the gas with your Overlord and then its either DTs or air if the Protoss has used a lot of it and in both cases you could use Spores ...
2. Do you really think that those Terrans and Protoss are happy about the junk they get and yet you "attack them". The Widow Mine doesnt work well enough to be worth having (except in the early game) and the DT is handled easily as well once you do have detection (which is just a few minerals for a Spore Crawler at your entrance). Zerg have had to build NOTHING in their own defense while Protoss and Terrans have had to invest in buildings to keep themselves safe; its time for Zerg to be forced to do the same really to even up the scale a bit as well, but burrow early really gives them too much defense against Hellions, Marines and Zealots ...
3. Did you ever stop and think about the simple ZERG vs ZERG matchup and how it is affected by an early burrow? How about burrowed Banelings on the entrance to your opponents base? Are they there or not? Will you risk running your Zerglings across a potential minefield and lose the game after a few minutes OR will you bunker up yourself as well and provide us with a boring game to watch? Thats the real consequence of early burrow ... ZvZ gets really terrible.
So its better to not assume "he is playing race X" when someone complains about race Y ... better not assume anything at all.
1. DT tech has been made 100gas cheaper. And there are many ways to go DT. And the gas is not telling a lot. Any Protoss tech needs a ton of gas (blink, DT, Robo, Stargate). Just massing sentries needs a ton of gas. Basically any build that is FFE into 3 or 4 rather fast gas is standard in PvZ and NOT taking 3-4 gas smells fishy.
2. Last time I checked "T-Funk" Thorzain was top5 on HotS ladder with mass widow mine bio play vs zerg. Also your arguement just stinks, because the "junk" Protoss and Terrans get and that you compare to burrow is something new. Burrow is something old that gets a small buff comparable to the Dark Shrine buff, and the Reaper buffs.
3. Yeah. If you invest 100 extra gas into defense in ZvZ, whether it is for burrow or for 4more banelings or some roaches I gladly just take the advantage and run with it. But yeah, I'm pretty sure double gas baneling+zergling speed+burrow builds of 20drones will start to pop up everywhere. Because people prefer to flip coins defensively instead of building more units. *sarcasm*
1. My comment was more about "DT rushes", but if you do normal Protoss development they wont be in your base.
2. Since when has any Terran rush-strategy been not nerfed by Blizzard? Reapers and bunker rushes both got nerfed really heavily. So that leaves us with the usefulness of the Widow Mine in an army ... and that practically doesnt exist. Try to combine it with bio and you are playing russian roulette with your bio ball; try to combine it with mech and you have increased your "set up unit numbers" by a lot more while not actually getting any consistent damage ... just some "oooohhh ... aaaahhh ... Spike damage" kinda similar to Banelings and they arent a well designed unit either.
3. Early burrow has the potential to kill off Zergling aggression in a ZvZ and that is a shame, because "very early Zergling army dances" were about the only part where you could really see a skill difference between two players.
1.) Well, you also won't see a lot of 1base rushes because of the earlier burrow... 2.) not really a lot to comment on as the first part as there is no arguement in it... Else: Widow mine is being used lategame with bio and mech. From way better players than you and I am, at least in 1-2matchups. 3.) Tell me a build order that does that. I'm simply failing to see it working out: -) Gasless pool/hatch or hatch/pool opening into 1gas? The standard right now is speed follow up and even that sometimes hits too late defensively and people go for banelings first instead. -) 1base 1gas opening? You still have to wait for your queen to start burrow. And then you wait 100seconds. Then you have burrow without anything else. You still need units that profit from it, so you cannot pull out of the gas with a one base opening == economical death.
Sorry, I just don't see a build order that works out and gives you queens+baneling nest+banelings+burrow+zergling speed in time to hold something off and is not your economical death in ZvZ. Maybe if you skip the zergling speed or 2gas you could create something. And maybe against delayed attacks. But you are still relying on your opponent to run over your landmines, instead of just having 3-4banelings more... I mean, those are not rather slow units like marines that are hard to hit and that shoot your banelings from afar. Those are highspeed zerglings that need to close the distance to you anyways you want to blow up. I doubt that burrow in ZvZ defensively is viable from an economical/BO-wise point of view. And even if, I doubt it's usefulness to go BLINDLY 100seconds before you need it for it, when ZvZ early defense right now means that you have 3banelings and the option to invest more into them if you need it.
Banelings on the entrance to your opponents base? Are they there or not? Will you risk running your Zerglings across a potential minefield and lose the game after a few minutes
Zerg will have creep at his ramp and spore isn't hard to do.
I didnt mean you putting Banelings on the ramp of your opponent, but what happens if your opponent already did it himself? How are you going to attack him then? You wont be able to check that because the Overseer requires an upgrade for the Hatchery and thus a lot of gas and time ... so basically early ZvZ with Zerglings is now dead.
You basically get burrow (and a handful of Banelings) right after the first Queen and then Drone up hard behind a screen of burrowed Banelings ... bunkering Zerg style. The beauty is that it works against early Terran ground aggression really well and Protoss basically have to stick to Stalkers or air ...
For me it just seems really to open up the zvz matchup... I dont think burrow is gonna be the strongest opening, but its gonna be equal to others, and force out fast lair builds and such... By going fast burrow into baneling, you sac ling speed, and if your opponent sniffs that out (should be easy with proper scouting) he can go fast lair and just attack you with an overseer... Burrow=100 gas ~ lair=100 gas... But opening burrow gives you a lot of other little advatages, like burrowing your drones and such... And makes roaches really strong.. I like it
Banelings on the entrance to your opponents base? Are they there or not? Will you risk running your Zerglings across a potential minefield and lose the game after a few minutes
Zerg will have creep at his ramp and spore isn't hard to do.
I didnt mean you putting Banelings on the ramp of your opponent, but what happens if your opponent already did it himself? How are you going to attack him then? You wont be able to check that because the Overseer requires an upgrade for the Hatchery and thus a lot of gas and time ... so basically early ZvZ with Zerglings is now dead.
You basically get burrow (and a handful of Banelings) right after the first Queen and then Drone up hard behind a screen of burrowed Banelings ... bunkering Zerg style. The beauty is that it works against early Terran ground aggression really well and Protoss basically have to stick to Stalkers or air ...
For me it just seems really to open up the zvz matchup... I dont think burrow is gonna be the strongest opening, but its gonna be equal to others, and force out fast lair builds and such... By going fast burrow into baneling, you sac ling speed, and if your opponent sniffs that out (should be easy with proper scouting) he can go fast lair and just attack you with an overseer... Burrow=100 gas ~ lair=100 gas... But opening burrow gives you a lot of other little advatages, like burrowing your drones and such... And makes roaches really strong.. I like it
But you can't see what he is researching right? I think it is difficult to know if he is going speed early or not. They use their gas differently. The worst thing I experience. Is when a group of lings get speed as they run into me.
Banelings on the entrance to your opponents base? Are they there or not? Will you risk running your Zerglings across a potential minefield and lose the game after a few minutes
Zerg will have creep at his ramp and spore isn't hard to do.
I didnt mean you putting Banelings on the ramp of your opponent, but what happens if your opponent already did it himself? How are you going to attack him then? You wont be able to check that because the Overseer requires an upgrade for the Hatchery and thus a lot of gas and time ... so basically early ZvZ with Zerglings is now dead.
You basically get burrow (and a handful of Banelings) right after the first Queen and then Drone up hard behind a screen of burrowed Banelings ... bunkering Zerg style. The beauty is that it works against early Terran ground aggression really well and Protoss basically have to stick to Stalkers or air ...
For me it just seems really to open up the zvz matchup... I dont think burrow is gonna be the strongest opening, but its gonna be equal to others, and force out fast lair builds and such... By going fast burrow into baneling, you sac ling speed, and if your opponent sniffs that out (should be easy with proper scouting) he can go fast lair and just attack you with an overseer... Burrow=100 gas ~ lair=100 gas... But opening burrow gives you a lot of other little advatages, like burrowing your drones and such... And makes roaches really strong.. I like it
But you can't see what he is researching right? I think it is difficult to know if he is going speed early or not. They use their gas differently. The worst thing I experience. Is when a group of lings get speed as they run into me.
You can actually. If he is researching speed then the spawning pool is sturred. If he is making banes then there is a baneling nest. If roaches, roach den (or whatever it's called). If lair, the hatchery is morphing.
Following that logic, assuming that it is a good player who doesn't let his gas build up, if it is non of these then he must be getting burrow. Unless he get's multiple of them (Banes/roaches and burrow go hand in hand imo), in which case it is harder to know but you can generally guess it from the gas count he has mined. If he's mined a lot of gas and has little to show for it then he must be researching burrow, or stockpiling gas for a big baneling bust.
Honestly, if my opponent in zvz can detonate his baneling cost efficiently while they're burrowed while a train of speedlings is running by (which by the way, love to run in one by one instead of a ball), he deserves the win. Hell, if he spends 100 gas on burrow, which by the way takes a staggering 100 seconds to complete, I'll just get 4 more banelings and crush him before his burrow is done.
burrow on hatch is not op... though it leads to earlier tricks in defending you still have to spend the resources to get it... meaning less resources for units... and tunneling claws are still lair tech... so the best you get its burrow micro for keeping your units alive.... harassment will still delay mining if they burrow their drones... plus if you scan it will be like shooting fish in a barrel... it just gives the early game a little more diversity... not all zergs are gonna rush to get burrow now just cause they can but in certain situations it could be useful...
as for reapers the health increase allows you to micro better with them so they stick around longer to harass... force your opponent to make more units instead of drones/probes/scvs... i think its useful... jump in kill take a little damage retreat heal and repeat... the rapid healing is no good if they die to fast to be able to retreat...
lastly the voidrays... i don't think the change is all that relevant... of course i don't play protoss... i feel if you are gonna lose to a deathball of voidrays its because you didn't scout it and whether there are 30 or 40 because of supply cap if you are not prepared you will lose and if you are prepared you might be able to defend... the timer thing seems a little silly...
Instead of the timer they might have allowed you to click on a voidray to see how much time it has left on its charge. Clicking on a unit and looking wherever you need to look is much more difficult than having to look at an always visible timer.
stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote: stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
Infestors have 12 range fungal in HOTS. Hope I didn't just blow your mind too much!
On January 19 2013 16:45 Green Sun s Zenith wrote: Well this finally proves my point, that the game designers and balance team are looking for action games. They want action units and more highly anticipated games, which is fine but it really doesn't seem like they care to much about balancing it out." We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. " Don't worry about balance or anything ; ) Given there is tons of time to balance the game , in my opinion I don't like where the game is going and its evolving into shit ever since brood war ended. I really hope at least they make new exciting maps instead of worrying so much about the action that the units bring. I guess I'll wait and see how everything turns out.
If you think hatch tech burrow is imbalanced you really have a lot to look at. If it's because it "forces out detection earlier" well fuck what do you think we have to do when you protosses go 1 base DT or 2 base DT? We are forced to get detection earlier or well we die.
The complaining is just so so silly, terran can force zerg detection early, protoss can, and zerg can't. Zerg now can and "OMG SO IMBALANCED". Yeah no not even close.
It's a bit different, you're not taking into account how the macro mechanics of the three races work. If Zerg's macro is left unchecked, their economy grows at a faster rate than P/T economies.
If Terran is forced to use mules, it's a free advantage for Zerg. And if you're able to burrow block Protosses 3rd with lings or burrow banes to stop any and all type of aggression, it doesn't let Protoss keep up as easily with Zerg economy.
On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote: stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
On January 19 2013 16:45 Green Sun s Zenith wrote: Well this finally proves my point, that the game designers and balance team are looking for action games. They want action units and more highly anticipated games, which is fine but it really doesn't seem like they care to much about balancing it out." We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. " Don't worry about balance or anything ; ) Given there is tons of time to balance the game , in my opinion I don't like where the game is going and its evolving into shit ever since brood war ended. I really hope at least they make new exciting maps instead of worrying so much about the action that the units bring. I guess I'll wait and see how everything turns out.
If you think hatch tech burrow is imbalanced you really have a lot to look at. If it's because it "forces out detection earlier" well fuck what do you think we have to do when you protosses go 1 base DT or 2 base DT? We are forced to get detection earlier or well we die.
The complaining is just so so silly, terran can force zerg detection early, protoss can, and zerg can't. Zerg now can and "OMG SO IMBALANCED". Yeah no not even close.
It's a bit different, you're not taking into account how the macro mechanics of the three races work. If Zerg's macro is left unchecked, their economy grows at a faster rate than P/T economies.
If Terran is forced to use mules, it's a free advantage for Zerg. And if you're able to burrow block Protosses 3rd with lings or burrow banes to stop any and all type of aggression, it doesn't let Protoss keep up as easily with Zerg economy.
Buffing Zerg early game is never a good idea!
How do you force something for free? Sorry but that's a contradiction in itself... If Zerg FORCEs Terran to scan, Zerg has to invest. So it's not a "free" advantage. You pay for something, and if you do it right you get a return.
The thing about the earlier burrow is that it encourages FFE even more as protoss, which makes for somewhat less-exciting (longer, more passive) games. Obviously an FFE can still go into many aggressive builds, but none of those builds are 1 base, making the first 9 minutes of the game totally passive, with zerg almost always getting 3 bases.
Considering that FFE is totally Standard right now anyway though, this burrow change essentially doesn't change that at all, but maybe digs SC2 into a bit of a rut.
I miss old maps with larger natural entrances or two entrances. With early burrow such maps might be banished from existence due to even more balance whining where people try to claim that FFE is the only possibly way to win.
The closest use to abusing burrow at hatch tech is against protoss and opening up 7 pool. Not sure how viable it is.
Basically you have to deny their nat, destroy their forge and start grabbing gas by about 15-16 supply and then research burrow asap. I've had minor success with it. Other than denying 3rds I haven't seen much change with burrow being hatch tech when I've tried to use it.
On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote: stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
User was temp banned for this post.
You needed a queens nest to get to hive in BW.. And none really used queens (cept zero). Didn't seem to bother anyone.
On January 20 2013 09:23 sagefreke wrote: The closest use to abusing burrow at hatch tech is against protoss and opening up 7 pool. Not sure how viable it is.
Basically you have to deny their nat, destroy their forge and start grabbing gas by about 15-16 supply and then research burrow asap. I've had minor success with it. Other than denying 3rds I haven't seen much change with burrow being hatch tech when I've tried to use it.
I don't know how sucessful that would be. Early gas is an econ hit, and 7 pool is also an econ hit. I would assume you would need to do something slightly less damaging pool timing wise (eg 8 or 9) to make up for the added loss of workers on gas.
On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote: stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
User was temp banned for this post.
Even if this were true (it's not, infestors are still ridiculously op) having to build an infestation pit to tech is not as bad as Terrans literally flying around their factory as a scout IN EVERY TVP GAME FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF. Talk about a useless tech structure...
On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote: stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
User was temp banned for this post.
Even if this were true (it's not, infestors are still ridiculously op) having to build an infestation pit to tech is not as bad as Terrans literally flying around their factory as a scout IN EVERY TVP GAME FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF. Talk about a useless tech structure...
No, they're not RIDICULOUSLY OP. They're ridiculously boring and everything that is wrong with SC 2 and its attempts to be a legit competitive game. Well, them, sentries, colossi, marauders etc.
On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote: stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
User was temp banned for this post.
Even if this were true (it's not, infestors are still ridiculously op) having to build an infestation pit to tech is not as bad as Terrans literally flying around their factory as a scout IN EVERY TVP GAME FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF. Talk about a useless tech structure...
No, they're not RIDICULOUSLY OP. They're ridiculously boring and everything that is wrong with SC 2 and its attempts to be a legit competitive game. Well, them, sentries, colossi, marauders etc.
Just because they're boring doesn't mean they can't be in the catagory of OP as well. They are still a unit which can win games singlehandedly. Just a little bit more difficult (if having 12 range with a "projectile" that moves fast as fuck is considered difficult).
im sure a majority of the reason fungal was nerfed (30 damage instead of 40) was because of its power vs vikings. david kim doesnt admit that, but i bet thats a big reason for it as david kim plays random and any terran player must know how incredibly ridiculous it is to have thousands of resources die in seconds to fungal, and vikings automatically clump in some way in every real game scenario when fighting broodlords/corrupters
david kim as a random player likely eventually realized now is the time to act on the issue
how about this
increase viking health to 200
then DECREASE viking attackspeed to give it the same "combat value"
heres what i mean by that
1 viking will pretty much barely lose or win against 1 corrupter (depending on who shoots first)
i think it also barely wins against a roach too
simply decrease the viking attackspeed to the point where it STILL barely loses to a corrupter, but then the increased health makes it more resiliant to fungal
also, decrease the groundmode attackspeed of the viking to keep it with the same "combat value". I think the easiest way to do this is to test 1 roach vs 1 viking (no upgrades) and record how much damage is dealt to the viking before the roach dies. then with the viking health increased to 200, reduce its ground attackspeed so the roach still dies with that much damage percentage being dealt to the viking
If fungal didn't root it would never be an issue, if you got fungaled you could attempt to run away and not lose 15 vikings without being able to do anything to stop it.
If anything fungal should be like ensnare in bw with the added benefit of reducing armor on units. Not a root spell that also does shitloads of damage, there is no way to look at that and say that it is good spell design.
On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote: stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
User was temp banned for this post.
Even if this were true (it's not, infestors are still ridiculously op) having to build an infestation pit to tech is not as bad as Terrans literally flying around their factory as a scout IN EVERY TVP GAME FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF. Talk about a useless tech structure...
No, they're not RIDICULOUSLY OP. They're ridiculously boring and everything that is wrong with SC 2 and its attempts to be a legit competitive game. Well, them, sentries, colossi, marauders etc.
Just because they're boring doesn't mean they can't be in the catagory of OP as well. They are still a unit which can win games singlehandedly. Just a little bit more difficult (if having 12 range with a "projectile" that moves fast as fuck is considered difficult).
That is a bullcrap, people are still trying to mass Infestors and are having no success because Infested Terran tickles in the late game. Fungal damage is nerfed, so you will only use them for Fungal(probably) and for that, you don't need more than 5 of them. They are the true support units now, as they should be, and if you think that they can win the game singlehandedly, yes, I guess as much as Ghosts, Ravens and High Templars can...
They were overpowered in WoL, but they are nerfed a lot in the HotS and with the addition of new units in HotS, they are not even close to what they were before.
On January 20 2013 12:37 bankobauss wrote: instead of nerfing fungal i have a better idea
im sure a majority of the reason fungal was nerfed (30 damage instead of 40) was because of its power vs vikings. david kim doesnt admit that, but i bet thats a big reason for it as david kim plays random and any terran player must know how incredibly ridiculous it is to have thousands of resources die in seconds to fungal, and vikings automatically clump in some way in every real game scenario when fighting broodlords/corrupters
david kim as a random player likely eventually realized now is the time to act on the issue
how about this
increase viking health to 200
then DECREASE viking attackspeed to give it the same "combat value"
heres what i mean by that
1 viking will pretty much barely lose or win against 1 corrupter (depending on who shoots first)
i think it also barely wins against a roach too
simply decrease the viking attackspeed to the point where it STILL barely loses to a corrupter, but then the increased health makes it more resiliant to fungal
also, decrease the groundmode attackspeed of the viking to keep it with the same "combat value". I think the easiest way to do this is to test 1 roach vs 1 viking (no upgrades) and record how much damage is dealt to the viking before the roach dies. then with the viking health increased to 200, reduce its ground attackspeed so the roach still dies with that much damage percentage being dealt to the viking
Sure, in ZvT. But suddenly colossi rape your bio army before the vikings manage to focus them down to their lower attackspeed (=less damage).
I really wish Blizzard would come out and tell the community they REALLY need help with this expansion. How about you fly out 9 progamers, 3 from each race. Get them to play TONS of games, and ask for their opinions.
burrow and voidray change are fine. Burrow change might affect zerg early game a little bit but probably won't do anything. Voidray change is good too to make the laser toss combination a bit weaker later on against zerg. Pretty much removes voidray strats from PvP though..
Reaper change is horrible once again.. Without bonus to light this unit is rediculous, it;s still terrible and virtually pointless to make except for scouting purposes.. Just revert it to it's old stats really but remove the ability to see on cliffs and slightly nerf it's damage against light...
On January 21 2013 00:13 Markwerf wrote: burrow and voidray change are fine. Burrow change might affect zerg early game a little bit but probably won't do anything. Voidray change is good too to make the laser toss combination a bit weaker later on against zerg. Pretty much removes voidray strats from PvP though..
Reaper change is horrible once again.. Without bonus to light this unit is rediculous, it;s still terrible and virtually pointless to make except for scouting purposes.. Just revert it to it's old stats really but remove the ability to see on cliffs and slightly nerf it's damage against light...
I don't think that they need damage vs. light, I would like to see them doing like 2x6 damage instead of 2x4. They still won't be too strong, and will be able to 3-shot lings and 4-shot Workers and Marines, but that is it. And of course, get them back on 50 hp. I also understand why they did buff their hp, but I don't think that it is good direction.
Cannot believe how badly they messed up the reaper once again. Blizzard incompetence to balance Starcraft II has now reached an undeniable status.
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
On January 21 2013 01:19 Sqwrl. wrote: so wait, does the early burrow mean that you can block early expansions with lings now?
Widow Mines already can do that without any burrow upgrades. Burrow research isn't free and while you're researching it, you don't make queens, delay your Lair, etc etc
On January 21 2013 01:19 Sqwrl. wrote: so wait, does the early burrow mean that you can block early expansions with lings now?
Yeah. but if you're taking your natural late enough for it to be blocked by a ling, or not have any sort of detection before taking your third, you're awful at sc and deserve to lose.
On January 21 2013 01:19 Sqwrl. wrote: so wait, does the early burrow mean that you can block early expansions with lings now?
Widow Mines already can do that without any burrow upgrades. Burrow research isn't free and while you're researching it, you don't make queens, delay your Lair, etc etc
its not free, and it does delay other things but i've noticed its easier to transtition from all ins into normal builds with the new burrow
say i do a raoch ling bane all in, then start lair, 1/1 and drone my 3rd up
i dont want to make roaches yet, because i'm in no real threat yet except to banshees, but i have 100 idle gas
> burrow
burrow finishes then and im able to burrow things all game to save/hide them
just something intersting to spend my gas on that can help me later instead of RIGHT NOW or WAIT UNTIL LAIR
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: Blizzard incompetence to balance Starcraft II has now reached an undeniable status.
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Yeah this is exactly what I think. Offensively, it won't do much, but defensively it makes Zerg even better. But there will be a lot of randomness... so you see a big Bio all-in coming and burrow Banes, but if the Terran scans and cleans them out or doesn't walk over them you've just wasted all those Banes and are even less likely to hold, but if the Terran walks over them you win?
That isn't skill, it is luck.
And does Zerg even need this? Are there any pressing early game plays that Zerg can't hold and that burrow would help them with? Pretty sure there isn't. Instead of focusing on balancing the game and making it more fun, they are just changing things for the sake of it it seems.
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: Blizzard incompetence to balance Starcraft II has now reached an undeniable status.
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Yeah this is exactly what I think. Offensively, it won't do much, but defensively it makes Zerg even better. But there will be a lot of randomness... so you see a big Bio all-in coming and burrow Banes, but if the Terran scans and cleans them out or doesn't walk over them you've just wasted all those Banes and are even less likely to hold, but if the Terran walks over them you win?
That isn't skill, it is luck.
And does Zerg even need this? Are there any pressing early game plays that Zerg can't hold and that burrow would help them with? Pretty sure there isn't. Instead of focusing on balancing the game and making it more fun, they are just changing things for the sake of it it seems.
With Terran having widow mines and Toss having the range 13 nexus cannon, it only seems fair to give zerg some more defensive abilities.
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: Blizzard incompetence to balance Starcraft II has now reached an undeniable status.
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Yeah this is exactly what I think. Offensively, it won't do much, but defensively it makes Zerg even better. But there will be a lot of randomness... so you see a big Bio all-in coming and burrow Banes, but if the Terran scans and cleans them out or doesn't walk over them you've just wasted all those Banes and are even less likely to hold, but if the Terran walks over them you win?
That isn't skill, it is luck.
And does Zerg even need this? Are there any pressing early game plays that Zerg can't hold and that burrow would help them with? Pretty sure there isn't. Instead of focusing on balancing the game and making it more fun, they are just changing things for the sake of it it seems.
With Terran having widow mines and Toss having the range 13 nexus cannon, it only seems fair to give zerg some more defensive abilities.
Your comment doesn't make sense. They make changes to the game to improve it, by looking at what they believe could be improved. It's not a tit-for-tat process.
That's like saying "Protoss got a 15 range unit, and Zerg got an even greater range unit, it would only be FAIR if Terran now got a higher ranged unit".
That's just not a logical way of going about things.
I've said several times in this thread and others. The burrow change hardly affects anything. I want my lair it is way more valuable than burrow. Except for a few all ins that will be easy to stop with proper scouting the burrow change hardly matters.
Stop theorycrafting and actually beta test. How many people have actually lost to some unstoppable Zerg burrow play?
On January 21 2013 05:12 FLuE wrote: I've said several times in this thread and others. The burrow change hardly affects anything. I want my lair it is way more valuable than burrow. Except for a few all ins that will be easy to stop with proper scouting the burrow change hardly matters.
Stop theorycrafting and actually beta test. How many people have actually lost to some unstoppable Zerg burrow play?
Exactly, i would much rather a zerg delay his lair tech with this dumb upgrade than pull my hair out over a zergling burrowed at my third.
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: Blizzard incompetence to balance Starcraft II has now reached an undeniable status.
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Yeah this is exactly what I think. Offensively, it won't do much, but defensively it makes Zerg even better. But there will be a lot of randomness... so you see a big Bio all-in coming and burrow Banes, but if the Terran scans and cleans them out or doesn't walk over them you've just wasted all those Banes and are even less likely to hold, but if the Terran walks over them you win?
That isn't skill, it is luck.
And does Zerg even need this? Are there any pressing early game plays that Zerg can't hold and that burrow would help them with? Pretty sure there isn't. Instead of focusing on balancing the game and making it more fun, they are just changing things for the sake of it it seems.
With Terran having widow mines and Toss having the range 13 nexus cannon, it only seems fair to give zerg some more defensive abilities.
The fact of the matter is that none of these things should be in the game to begin with.
The response to bad game design is not tacked on patches.
really wonder when they are going to fix medivac's there speed boost is the dumbest shit in the world... oh you have cannons/turrets/spores... dsnt matter looooool.... oh you came back to your base with blink stalkers or stimmed marrines... loooool fly away loose nothing...
On January 21 2013 03:37 sagefreke wrote: Really wish they would do something to Hydras or Corruptors... Zerg's AA is so pitiful now with the Infestor nerf.
AA is bad, but moreover zerg lair tech is now even worse. I would like to see cracklings for lair tech. This upgrade is not that useful now. Lings only block ultras later on. Cracklings with lair tech would add some more mid game timings, not only rushing to hive options. But still it doesn't fix AA problem...
On January 20 2013 12:37 bankobauss wrote: instead of nerfing fungal i have a better idea
im sure a majority of the reason fungal was nerfed (30 damage instead of 40) was because of its power vs vikings. david kim doesnt admit that, but i bet thats a big reason for it as david kim plays random and any terran player must know how incredibly ridiculous it is to have thousands of resources die in seconds to fungal, and vikings automatically clump in some way in every real game scenario when fighting broodlords/corrupters
Hmm... If it is because of Vikings, they could have easily given Viking damage resistance against Fungals (or fungals do not do bonus to armor against air units).
It's really easy to make the editor have this.
For example - In the case of Fungal having +10 against armor (to ground only) and not to air, just have two "damage" effects, and make a validator that checks if the target is a ground unit ("required" ground), and the other make a check that the other is "required air" with "exclude ground" (this prevents colossus from taking bonus damage from fungal).
There you go. If they don't want to do that, they could give Vikings a behavior that reduces damage against Fungal (make it a passive called Fungal Shield... Yes it's weird but if they really want to make the game good, they shouldn't worry about weird stuff like Vikings have passive resistance to some of Fungal's damage).
Hopefully the fungal against +armor nerf isn't due to just one unit (the viking) because they certainly have the capabilities to nerf/buff damage for a single unit or types of units (ground or flying for example).
Edit - This is a general comment about changes in SC2 rather than "Fungal nerfed because of Viking?", I've seen the way they made Void Rays do bonus damage to massive and I've seen the way Blizzard made PDD feedbackable and the way Blizzard uses the editor isn't actually efficient >.>.
Here are Blizzard's error with Void Rays and PDD in the editor (not being efficient and causing it to be prone to "Spaghetti coding" or since this is the data editor, Spaghetti data editor issues): + Show Spoiler +
1. Point Defense Drone. Back in one of the early patches, PDD was considered a unit, not a structure.
They changed it to a structure. However, they wanted Feedback to still against PDD (and Feedback doesn't work on structures, normally), so here's what they did:
*They made it so Feedback targets everything but excludes Orbital Commands and Nexus....
Okay, to anyone that doesn't know what this means. Is that, if they (or anyone using the editor) adds a new structure with energy, feedback can target that structure. The reason is, they set Feedback to work on any target "except" OCs and Nexus, which is silly and prone to "spaghetti code". (I say Spaghetti code because these types of inefficient things piled up will end up being similar to Spaghetti Code, a small change and something breaks something else, you don't know what's causing it.)
Here's the efficient and "spaghetti code-proof" way of making Feedback work against PDD WITHOUT affecting new structures with energy.
Make Feedback target anything like normal.
For Feedback (Set) (Effect), make a Validator that has this:
*1Target units (exclude structures) with energy. *2 Target Point Defense Drone (you can set a validator for a specific unit, it's under "unit type" I think). *3 Validator Set ("OR") If one of the conditions above is true (#1 "OR" #2), then they ability can be cast.
Set Validator #3 to Feedback Effect.
Now Feedback can target Point Defense Drones, and units with energy WITHOUT issues if spaghetti code-like problems later. It's efficient, it works. It's not prone to problems with future new structures with energy too.
So instead of having Feedback target all units except Orbital Commands and Nexus (which again, are prone to problems with new structures with energy), my method makes it so that feedback targets all non-structure units "or" Point Defense Drone, like Feedback is intended to work.
(I use this in my series of custom maps which I shall nickname, Imbalanced Starcraft. I added Dark Pylons which have energy and can work similar to Shield Batteries for Protoss units, except for energy. Also they can restore shields too, passively, but Protoss units or allies can right click on the pylon to transfer energy from the Dark Pylon to the unit with energy... When I added the Dark Pylon, I found the computer Protoss players were feedbacking my Dark Pylons. The problem is because of Blizzard's inefficient use of the data editor >.<.)
Now we're done with PDD, here's Blizzard's ineffecient and spaghetti code prone method of making Void Rays deal bonus damage to massive (in WoL).
2. Instead of giving Void Rays a behavior that targets massive, and does 20% more damage to them... Blizzard gave a passive behavior to massive units that made them take 20% more damage from Void Rays...
Again, Blizzard >.<. This means that if you add any new massive units, you have to manually give them the passive behavior that makes them take 20% more damage from Void Rays. If Blizzard instead gave a Behavior (or made a new set of effects) that made Void Rays do 20% more damage to massive only, then the problem wouldn't exist.
I won't explain the problem more (because it's similar to the Point Defense Drone issue above, it's inefficient and prone to errors from new units that they or other map makers add).
So yeah, Blizzard is bad at using the editor IMO. They're not that bad though but I think they could be a bit more creative and less error prone with how they use it . I'm not sure if certain balance changes are made in the mind that they can do anything or rather they're limited by unit types. If it's the latter, then that's bad. If it's the former, they can balance individual units against other individual units fairly easily.
For example, if Reapers were a problem in TvT, they could make it so Reapers do not do bonus +light damage to Terran units but do bonus to Zerg and Protoss units only.
Or if Mutalisks were a problem in ZvZ, they could make it so Infestors dealt bonus damage against Mutalisks (only) or even make it so Infested Terrans do bonus to Mutalisks, or whatever.
(Again, all of it is possible in the editor, and fairly easy to do actually. See my examples in the spoilers on the power of the SC2 editor!)
These are just examples of specific changes that may cause less "chain reaction" issues in other matchups or against other units.
Void Ray We haven't seen many players microing against the Void Ray's Prismatic Alignment ability, even among the highest rated players in the HotS Beta. In order to encourage more precise micro against this ability, we've decided to display a timer on the Void Ray for the duration of the effect. We're hoping to see players pull their units back against Prismatic Alignment, and re-engage once the ability is on cooldown.
We also felt that Void Rays were too strong in the late game for their supply cost, so we decided to increase this requirement by 1.
There's another thread on this but the reason is that Void Rays have +2 extended range when they attack a unit (so if they attack a unit at 6 range, the unit has to move farther than 8 range before Void Rays stop attacking).
Also, the animation clearly shows when the Void Ray is charged or when not (it's when the Void Rays have a giant beam instead of a small beam, also when Void Rays have 3 beams lit up the ship), so it's not an issue of whether players know Void Rays are charged or not (though the timer does let players know how long the Charge lasts).
Anyway as someone noted, they could make it so Void Rays do not have a +2 range buffer (instead it could be +0.5 or something).
Additionally, it is possible to make it so the Void Ray deals less damage the farther away a unit is (they could make it so the beams have different colors too, to indicate this).
For example 5 range and less, the Void Ray does 100% damage. from 5 range to 6 range, Void Rays do 75% damage. From 6-8 range (extended range), Void Rays do 50% damage.
(It's possible to do in the editor. It involves having multiple effects for damage "in 1 set effect" with validators that compare the unit distances between caster and target.)
TBH though... I feel Void Rays should return to their old state except reduce the charge time from 6 attacks to 3 (and give Void Rays 3 levels of the beam like in the beta instead of just 2). Also increase the hold charge duration from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
This means that the player using Void Rays have to micro their Void Rays to prevent over attacking one unit. Since it's spread out on 3 levels, with 3 attacks to charge, instead of 2 levels with 6 attacks to charge, it'll be much easier.
Right now Void Rays have become yet another a-move unit... and just because the enemy has to "micro" against them (also known as everything in SC2, just move away) doesn't make them interesting. (Plus, the old Void Rays, opponents had to micro against them too, like move away the unit being attacked so the VR doesn't get a charged.)
In terms of the original VR fix, I felt like it Blizzard focused too much on making the VR useful (its interesting mechanic was removed at the cost). I think it should be revisited again. (It's the beta, it doesn't take that long to implement fancy mechanics like VRs doing less damage the farther away the unit is or rebalancing the old Void Ray's charge system. I could do it in 5-10 mins in the editor). Now, "gimmick mechanics" shouldn't be all over the place but currently, I feel there aren't enough interesting unit mechanics (compared to BW). Void Rays had potential with their old charge up mechanic IMO.
They should add back the Reaver, one of the best designed (in terms of gameplay) unit in any RTS and call it a day. This isn't me being BW elitist, I like the Swarm Host over the Lurker. A lot of new units replaced the old units in terms of design or concept. Banelings are similar to Scourges, except on the ground. Lurkers, while a staple and one of reasons BW made SC1 good, is not that unique of a unit and is just a typical line splash damage unit. However... nothing in SC2 is like the Reaver. It needs to come back.
On January 21 2013 01:19 Sqwrl. wrote: so wait, does the early burrow mean that you can block early expansions with lings now?
Widow Mines already can do that without any burrow upgrades. Burrow research isn't free and while you're researching it, you don't make queens, delay your Lair, etc etc
its not free, and it does delay other things but i've noticed its easier to transtition from all ins into normal builds with the new burrow
say i do a raoch ling bane all in, then start lair, 1/1 and drone my 3rd up
i dont want to make roaches yet, because i'm in no real threat yet except to banshees, but i have 100 idle gas
> burrow
burrow finishes then and im able to burrow things all game to save/hide them
just something intersting to spend my gas on that can help me later instead of RIGHT NOW or WAIT UNTIL LAIR
well having spare gas without a goal you're saving it up for is usually just bad macro.
Getting burrow while you go to lair will probably by quite useful just to shave some seconds of it without having to go needlessly quick lair. It's fairly useful on defense against protoss just to save units from zealot pressure, oracles or to defend against 7 gates etc. Using a ling burrowed at the third and near the forge is also quite useful for keeping an eye on what they're doing or delaying an expansion.
Does anyone else feel like the direction the game has headed in the past few patches have made the game less enjoyable? It seems like they are removing most early game pressure and just encouraging turtle macrofests imo, while just tweaking gimmicky things here and there (particularly the reaper).
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
After having watched a game of catz i have major optimism for the burrow change. He was doing crazy stuff like burrow banelings around expo to pop up and kill the second its planted, microing with it, like major fun stuff to watch. It was a crazy game. This has so much potential.
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans).
Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain.
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely.
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans).
Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain.
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely.
Seems like quite a huge investment compared to what they have to do now to drone up hard, make 4-6 queens.
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans).
Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain.
On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely.
Seems like quite a huge investment compared to what they have to do now to drone up hard, make 4-6 queens.
Those 4-6 Queens cant shut down harrassment as hard as Banelings can ... in ZvZ ... and burrow is really useful to really prevent harrassment on its own by forcing scans from Terrans. So burrow on its own really works against every kind of harrassment without the Banelings (which are most likely useful only against other Zerg or Terrans which you know will not go Banshee harrassing you). Early burrow has the potential of being just as bad as Queen range increase to shut down the harrassment necessary to keep Zerg economy in check.
As a zerg player, against Terran, I am very cautious of the siege tanks with siege ability by default.
This means that Terran can attack with marines and tanks very early. I need every possible units and abilities to hold back the attack. Burrowed will be a good investment/insurance. In case I see the terran moving out. Burrowed zerglings/banglings and roaches and prepare to defense.
I think it is a good idea to burrowed in the expansion not on top of the expansion..but between the CC and the mineral line. When they send their SCVs, unburrowed and attack or denote the banglings. Though this will not be any time soon as it takes time to research burrow and get banglings....
On January 21 2013 16:34 BigRedDog wrote: As a zerg player, against Terran, I am very cautious of the siege tanks with siege ability by default.
This means that Terran can attack with marines and tanks very early. I need every possible units and abilities to hold back the attack. Burrowed will be a good investment/insurance. In case I see the terran moving out. Burrowed zerglings/banglings and roaches and prepare to defense.
I think it is a good idea to burrowed in the expansion not on top of the expansion..but between the CC and the mineral line. When they send their SCVs, unburrowed and attack or denote the banglings. Though this will not be any time soon as it takes time to research burrow and get banglings....
It's a nice change from the free double FE zerg gets now in WOL..
On January 21 2013 16:34 BigRedDog wrote: As a zerg player, against Terran, I am very cautious of the siege tanks with siege ability by default.
This means that Terran can attack with marines and tanks very early. I need every possible units and abilities to hold back the attack. Burrowed will be a good investment/insurance. In case I see the terran moving out. Burrowed zerglings/banglings and roaches and prepare to defense.
I think it is a good idea to burrowed in the expansion not on top of the expansion..but between the CC and the mineral line. When they send their SCVs, unburrowed and attack or denote the banglings. Though this will not be any time soon as it takes time to research burrow and get banglings....
It's a nice change from the free double FE zerg gets now in WOL..
in TvP it also completely shuts down fast gateway attacks with your tier 1 units able to burrow, regenerate and fight again.. really classy
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
You are making up problems.
I think you missed my point. I was trying to show how having things like BW does not necessarily translate to being better because how other units/mechanics work in SC2.
My opinion on the burrow change, I think it's too early to tell whether or not burrow as a hatchery tech is a problem. Not enough people have played around with getting quick burrow against T and P for anyone to argue either way.
Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z. Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz: "We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of." "Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base." "Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz: We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz. "Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it." "Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz: "Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro. BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is.. I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
Wait what you do complain about the Infestor having Range 10 now? Have you been checking out the Patch History of the Infestor? Dodgeable, weaker Fungal, IT less Eggheatlh, significantly weaker lategame...
Charged up VR might be stronger, but you do know that getting an Infestor charged up in a battle was nearly unrealistic, thats why Corrupter were actually good counter to them, while they now have pretty tought time, because the VR can choose when to do full dmg.
I am not saying there is no need for future patches that also deal with Protoss problems, but you are really overdoing it here.
On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote: Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z. Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz: "We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of." "Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base." "Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz: We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz. "Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it." "Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz: "Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro. BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is.. I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
What are you on about? Protoss has never been as fun to play as it is right now. You can literally choose freely to tech to whatever you want. And you can be out on the map of you want to. Oh, is that a drop or a counterattack behind you? CHING and you're back to base to defend.
Yes i am overdoing it I know. But i swear to you the Protoss race owner at blizzard is a real wuss nerd sitting with a small voice just accepting any and all nerfs thrown at Protoss.
Really the race starts out with these nice abilities which always end up being nerfed into obscurity FORCING yet another 2-3 base, 3 base max.. turtle death ball. It makes Protoss play bland as hell.
Meanwhile Z gets binding cloud, hook, 10 range fungals. No evo spore crawlers. Awesome synergy nydus + swarm host play etc etc.. P gets these useless flyers called tempest, nerfed void rays, an energy driven oracle that can do 1 harras and get countered by a single spore colony making them useless. A hero catser unit being capable of throwing out 10 speels with little energy.. We right back to the deathball again.. Arent they supose to make skytoss viable? Make P a bit more dynamic. Yet its these short sighted nerfs to anything protoss always. Get creative on P please omw. It seems every Blizz official is a zerg fanboy..
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
Everything you've said about zerg changes is pretty true, but the viper cloud is disrutption web rather than Dark Swarm :p
On January 21 2013 19:20 Swartblits wrote: Yes i am overdoing it I know. But i swear to you the Protoss race owner at blizzard is a real wuss nerd sitting with a small voice just accepting any and all nerfs thrown at Protoss.
Really the race starts out with these nice abilities which always end up being nerfed into obscurity FORCING yet another 2-3 base, 3 base max.. turtle death ball. It makes Protoss play bland as hell.
Meanwhile Z gets binding cloud, hook, 10 range fungals. No evo spore crawlers. Awesome synergy nydus + swarm host play etc etc.. P gets these useless flyers called tempest, nerfed void rays, an energy driven oracle that can do 1 harras and get countered by a single spore colony making them useless. A hero catser unit being capable of throwing out 10 speels with little energy.. We right back to the deathball again.. Arent they supose to make skytoss viable? Make P a bit more dynamic. Yet its these short sighted nerfs to anything protoss always. Get creative on P please omw. It seems every Blizz official is a zerg fanboy..
Talking about the momma core! Uber hero unit meaning you can have only 1. Has timewarp, town portal and nexus overcharge. You think u have it bad with your 5 infestors with gland upgrade regening energy... NOT..enough.. energy for overcharge.. WHy the F did i get this thing?! gg
On January 21 2013 19:20 Swartblits wrote: Yes i am overdoing it I know. But i swear to you the Protoss race owner at blizzard is a real wuss nerd sitting with a small voice just accepting any and all nerfs thrown at Protoss.
Really the race starts out with these nice abilities which always end up being nerfed into obscurity FORCING yet another 2-3 base, 3 base max.. turtle death ball. It makes Protoss play bland as hell.
Meanwhile Z gets binding cloud, hook, 10 range fungals. No evo spore crawlers. Awesome synergy nydus + swarm host play etc etc.. P gets these useless flyers called tempest, nerfed void rays, an energy driven oracle that can do 1 harras and get countered by a single spore colony making them useless. A hero catser unit being capable of throwing out 10 speels with little energy.. We right back to the deathball again.. Arent they supose to make skytoss viable? Make P a bit more dynamic. Yet its these short sighted nerfs to anything protoss always. Get creative on P please omw. It seems every Blizz official is a zerg fanboy..
I felt the same, just do like me switch Z.Or stay on WOL. untill stats from results shows the evidence
I switched to random actually. Going from P to Z is fairly easy due to the both being able to mass units quickly. Finding going to Terran being hardest since you need so myuch more production. Thinng is i cant help getting bonkers whenever i see my favorite Protoss Race owner on Blizz side getting a wedgie yet again, and not having a single f*^&^* spark of creativity.
Same for me i started random, but T mechanics are so diff from Pand Z that i keep with Z and TvT is so boring, unless ZvZ or PvP. I mostly win all ZvP I know so well P timing and what are so anoying Z is also funny to play and more macro orriented. Moreover HOTS the swarm ^^ i understand why. The only thing is Z unit are cheap don t micro too much ur lings it is 25mineral unit not 100 as zelot anymore.
On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote: stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
Infestors have 12 range fungal in HOTS. Hope I didn't just blow your mind too much!
12? Isn't it 10? .. Why am I not surprised that avilo's the poster
I'm not really good enough to comment on balance, but I've had some great fun in beta with burrow shenanigans. Roach+burrow allins are really fun in ZvZ, and I've had some roach play success against terran too, burrowing a group of lings near his base to scout him moving out and then unburrowing to pick off reinforcements/to counter attack.
Also had a TvT with me starting gas first reactor reapers, building 6 and then swapping to bio + widow mines. It went great and even managed to extract some rage at me for being a "cheeser"
On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote: stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
Infestors have 12 range fungal in HOTS. Hope I didn't just blow your mind too much!
12? Isn't it 10? .. Why am I not surprised that avilo's the poster
Also because it's Avilo, one can surmise that he means range + radius of fungal.
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans).
Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain.
On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely.
Seems like quite a huge investment compared to what they have to do now to drone up hard, make 4-6 queens.
Those 4-6 Queens cant shut down harrassment as hard as Banelings can ... in ZvZ ... and burrow is really useful to really prevent harrassment on its own by forcing scans from Terrans. So burrow on its own really works against every kind of harrassment without the Banelings (which are most likely useful only against other Zerg or Terrans which you know will not go Banshee harrassing you). Early burrow has the potential of being just as bad as Queen range increase to shut down the harrassment necessary to keep Zerg economy in check.
not at all really.. early burrow is expensive, still takes quite a while to research and burrowed banes or lings don't do much at all. Burrowed banelings are in no way comparable to lurkers because they require far more investment and they only trade while lurkers can demolish groups without loss. Early banelings need to have rediculously good placement to even kill a group of marines and terran can have map control with hellions before you have burrow completed easily.. On defense burrowing lings to suprise surround something is good but that alone hardly makes the upgrade a must, you need to be really lucky to use it.
Burrow in ZvT is more likely to become something gimmicky as hallucination was, something that's used quite rarely but should be taken into account. For ZvP it's probably quite useful but that's a good thing as zerg could use a little extra defense to stop the all-in nature of the matchup it often still is.
On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote: Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z. Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz: "We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of." "Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base." "Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz: We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz. "Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it." "Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz: "Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro. BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is.. I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
stop this rediculous whining... HotS voids are far stronger than WoL voids because fungal was nerfed a fair bit and their attack speed increased.. New ability is also better than previous charge up because you have extra DPS right at the start of the battle instead of at the end.. Battles rarely last much longer than the duration anyway and new void DPS is better. A tiny supply nerf to make the lasertoss composition a bit less supply effective lategame is only logical since that combination is quite strong again with an easy counter to broodlords available..
All other arguments except the time warp one are even more rediculous whining. Timewarp on the oracle was sort of useless though as you'd rather use the energy on just attacking most of the time. On the MsC you have something else to do with your energy but it's still a bland crappy spell.
On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote: Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z. Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz: "We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of." "Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base." "Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz: We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz. "Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it." "Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz: "Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro. BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is.. I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
stop this rediculous whining... HotS voids are far stronger than WoL voids because fungal was nerfed a fair bit and their attack speed increased.. New ability is also better than previous charge up because you have extra DPS right at the start of the battle instead of at the end.. Battles rarely last much longer than the duration anyway and new void DPS is better. A tiny supply nerf to make the lasertoss composition a bit less supply effective lategame is only logical since that combination is quite strong again with an easy counter to broodlords available..
All other arguments except the time warp one are even more rediculous whining. Timewarp on the oracle was sort of useless though as you'd rather use the energy on just attacking most of the time. On the MsC you have something else to do with your energy but it's still a bland crappy spell.
Your whole argument of "Void Rays in HotS are far stronger" really shows the stupidity of the whole design / balancing concept of Blizzard ... and consequently your equal lack of understanding. Units in an expansion should never be "more powerful", because you would have to start all over again with the whole balancing for every unit. They arent doing that, but since they are fiddling around with quite a few "basic stuff" which was already in WoL the whole dilemma is easy to see ... if you want to see it. They should have fixed WoL balance and made those units fun before adding in new stuff in HotS ... but they didnt.
On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote: Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z. Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz: "We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of." "Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base." "Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz: We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz. "Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it." "Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz: "Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro. BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is.. I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
stop this rediculous whining... HotS voids are far stronger than WoL voids because fungal was nerfed a fair bit and their attack speed increased.. New ability is also better than previous charge up because you have extra DPS right at the start of the battle instead of at the end.. Battles rarely last much longer than the duration anyway and new void DPS is better. A tiny supply nerf to make the lasertoss composition a bit less supply effective lategame is only logical since that combination is quite strong again with an easy counter to broodlords available..
All other arguments except the time warp one are even more rediculous whining. Timewarp on the oracle was sort of useless though as you'd rather use the energy on just attacking most of the time. On the MsC you have something else to do with your energy but it's still a bland crappy spell.
Your whole argument of "Void Rays in HotS are far stronger" really shows the stupidity of the whole design / balancing concept of Blizzard ... and consequently your equal lack of understanding. Units in an expansion should never be "more powerful", because you would have to start all over again with the whole balancing for every unit. They arent doing that, but since they are fiddling around with quite a few "basic stuff" which was already in WoL the whole dilemma is easy to see ... if you want to see it. They should have fixed WoL balance and made those units fun before adding in new stuff in HotS ... but they didnt.
Stronger is not the term that I would, but more versatile and robust. The old voidray had a very limited and shrinking role in WoL metagame. I can't remember the last time I ever build one is basic game. The updated voidray has a more robust role in a lot of the match ups and this makes the unit better as a whole. This is good, because the more options people have, the more exciting the games will be.
On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote: Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z. Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz: "We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of." "Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base." "Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz: We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz. "Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it." "Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz: "Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro. BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is.. I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
stop this rediculous whining... HotS voids are far stronger than WoL voids because fungal was nerfed a fair bit and their attack speed increased.. New ability is also better than previous charge up because you have extra DPS right at the start of the battle instead of at the end.. Battles rarely last much longer than the duration anyway and new void DPS is better. A tiny supply nerf to make the lasertoss composition a bit less supply effective lategame is only logical since that combination is quite strong again with an easy counter to broodlords available..
All other arguments except the time warp one are even more rediculous whining. Timewarp on the oracle was sort of useless though as you'd rather use the energy on just attacking most of the time. On the MsC you have something else to do with your energy but it's still a bland crappy spell.
Your whole argument of "Void Rays in HotS are far stronger" really shows the stupidity of the whole design / balancing concept of Blizzard ... and consequently your equal lack of understanding. Units in an expansion should never be "more powerful", because you would have to start all over again with the whole balancing for every unit. They arent doing that, but since they are fiddling around with quite a few "basic stuff" which was already in WoL the whole dilemma is easy to see ... if you want to see it. They should have fixed WoL balance and made those units fun before adding in new stuff in HotS ... but they didnt.
What are you on about? New units means new strategies, which in turn means that everything needs to be rebelanced. What in the world makes you think a unit can't be buffed/nerfed a bit to fit the new strategies and playstyles that they want to bring out in hots?
I also love your use of "lack of understanding". This means you have a doctor degree in game design yes?
On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote: Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z. Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz: "We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of." "Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base." "Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz: We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz. "Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it." "Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz: "Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro. BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is.. I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
stop this rediculous whining... HotS voids are far stronger than WoL voids because fungal was nerfed a fair bit and their attack speed increased.. New ability is also better than previous charge up because you have extra DPS right at the start of the battle instead of at the end.. Battles rarely last much longer than the duration anyway and new void DPS is better. A tiny supply nerf to make the lasertoss composition a bit less supply effective lategame is only logical since that combination is quite strong again with an easy counter to broodlords available..
All other arguments except the time warp one are even more rediculous whining. Timewarp on the oracle was sort of useless though as you'd rather use the energy on just attacking most of the time. On the MsC you have something else to do with your energy but it's still a bland crappy spell.
Your whole argument of "Void Rays in HotS are far stronger" really shows the stupidity of the whole design / balancing concept of Blizzard ... and consequently your equal lack of understanding. Units in an expansion should never be "more powerful", because you would have to start all over again with the whole balancing for every unit. They arent doing that, but since they are fiddling around with quite a few "basic stuff" which was already in WoL the whole dilemma is easy to see ... if you want to see it. They should have fixed WoL balance and made those units fun before adding in new stuff in HotS ... but they didnt.
I also love your use of "lack of understanding". This means you have a degree in game design yes?
That is the super passive agressive way of insulting your intelligence, while still keeping on topic. Notice how he calls Blizzard's ideas stupid earlier, but only says you have an equal lack of understanding. It also avoids the pesky problem of having to back up his argument. And then you will notice how he simply moves on and simply assumes that everything he stated before is fact, with not evidence what so ever.
I hate how blizzard do things. Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix. Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes. Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore.
On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote: I hate how blizzard do things. Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix. Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes. Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore.
I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit.
The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough.
But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead?
On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote: I hate how blizzard do things. Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix. Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes. Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore.
Void rays dps is already kind of bad vs light for its cost and only with the prismatic alignment, it comes close to 1*Immortal or 2*marauder dps vs armored, for a short amount of time. Guess how much supply 1immortal or 2marauders cost?
People did not complain about void rays being too good early on. They said that lategame mass void ray was probably too good. Supply is THE fix for that. Even more, now void rays cost per supply is: 62.5/37.5, which is pretty standard for a "low tier" air unit.
Your comparison fits much better to all the "just remove unit/ability X and replace it with unit/ability Y" criers, who would much rather see every flat tire removed instantly, instead of having to work for a fix.
On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote: I hate how blizzard do things. Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix. Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes. Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore.
I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit.
The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough.
But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead?
The Reaper is a "gimmicky" unit which has only its speed and the jump ability to go for it. This is far less user friendly / useful than Blink of Stalkers in a battle. Coupled with their pitiful range and tiny damage they really become rather useless, but thats not the true part which limits the unit. What really prevents them from ever being what Dustin and his cronies dreamed they should do is the core "massive numbers of units" design for SC2. Against huge armies you simply cant use this kind of cutesy gimmicky unit and their combat stats - which are appropriate for their speed and cliffjumping maneuverability - because you need true combat power once the engagement begins. Since the game is designed to be all about "massive engagements" from the mid game onwards they become totally useless there and then ...
They could only make the Reaper useful later on if they abolished their stupid concept of mass battles, but that is really really REALLY unlikely. So, Dustin, just give up on this unit and work on mech instead ...
On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote: I hate how blizzard do things. Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix. Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes. Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore.
I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit.
The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough.
But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead?
The Reaper is a "gimmicky" unit which has only its speed and the jump ability to go for it. This is far less user friendly / useful than Blink of Stalkers in a battle. Coupled with their pitiful range and tiny damage they really become rather useless, but thats not the true part which limits the unit. What really prevents them from ever being what Dustin and his cronies dreamed they should do is the core "massive numbers of units" design for SC2. Against huge armies you simply cant use this kind of cutesy gimmicky unit and their combat stats - which are appropriate for their speed and cliffjumping maneuverability - because you need true combat power once the engagement begins. Since the game is designed to be all about "massive engagements" from the mid game onwards they become totally useless there and then ...
They could only make the Reaper useful later on if they abolished their stupid concept of mass battles, but that is really really REALLY unlikely. So, Dustin, just give up on this unit and work on mech instead ...
Any unit can always be salvaged. Giving the reaper a small aoe for instance would do wonders to it, and make them viable with bio vs zerg all the way to lategame. Unfortunately then they would fill much of the same role as the hellion, and thats not what they want.
On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote: I hate how blizzard do things. Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix. Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes. Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore.
I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit.
The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough.
But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead?
The Reaper is a "gimmicky" unit which has only its speed and the jump ability to go for it. This is far less user friendly / useful than Blink of Stalkers in a battle. Coupled with their pitiful range and tiny damage they really become rather useless, but thats not the true part which limits the unit. What really prevents them from ever being what Dustin and his cronies dreamed they should do is the core "massive numbers of units" design for SC2. Against huge armies you simply cant use this kind of cutesy gimmicky unit and their combat stats - which are appropriate for their speed and cliffjumping maneuverability - because you need true combat power once the engagement begins. Since the game is designed to be all about "massive engagements" from the mid game onwards they become totally useless there and then ...
They could only make the Reaper useful later on if they abolished their stupid concept of mass battles, but that is really really REALLY unlikely. So, Dustin, just give up on this unit and work on mech instead ...
Any unit can always be salvaged. Giving the reaper a small aoe for instance would do wonders to it, and make them viable with bio vs zerg all the way to lategame. Unfortunately then they would fill much of the same role as the hellion, and thats not what they want.
Also, more scouting early game scouting is good for all the races. More information means that players can feel more confident about being aggressive and not have to play as defensively. I have always felt that lack of constant, early game information gathering is the reason why the current metagame is so defensive. If the reaper fills this role, more power to it. If they can find a way to give it a neat late game upgrade that gives small groups of them something useful to do, also awesome.
On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote: I hate how blizzard do things. Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix. Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes. Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore.
I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit.
The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough.
But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead?
The Reaper is a "gimmicky" unit which has only its speed and the jump ability to go for it. This is far less user friendly / useful than Blink of Stalkers in a battle. Coupled with their pitiful range and tiny damage they really become rather useless, but thats not the true part which limits the unit. What really prevents them from ever being what Dustin and his cronies dreamed they should do is the core "massive numbers of units" design for SC2. Against huge armies you simply cant use this kind of cutesy gimmicky unit and their combat stats - which are appropriate for their speed and cliffjumping maneuverability - because you need true combat power once the engagement begins. Since the game is designed to be all about "massive engagements" from the mid game onwards they become totally useless there and then ...
They could only make the Reaper useful later on if they abolished their stupid concept of mass battles, but that is really really REALLY unlikely. So, Dustin, just give up on this unit and work on mech instead ...
Any unit can always be salvaged. Giving the reaper a small aoe for instance would do wonders to it, and make them viable with bio vs zerg all the way to lategame. Unfortunately then they would fill much of the same role as the hellion, and thats not what they want.
Also, more scouting early game scouting is good for all the races. More information means that players can feel more confident about being aggressive and not have to play as defensively. I have always felt that lack of constant, early game information gathering is the reason why the current metagame is so defensive. If the reaper fills this role, more power to it. If they can find a way to give it a neat late game upgrade that gives small groups of them something useful to do, also awesome.
Thats an interesting theory. Do you think the game would be more aggressive if both parties didn't have any fog of war? Or is there a limit to what you should be able to see untill no one bothers to do anything because they'd know exactly what to do anyways? I know it sc2 wont be the same without fow. But just wondering if whetever other or newer games would benefit from it.
On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote: I hate how blizzard do things. Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix. Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes. Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore.
I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit.
The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough.
But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead?
The Reaper is a "gimmicky" unit which has only its speed and the jump ability to go for it. This is far less user friendly / useful than Blink of Stalkers in a battle. Coupled with their pitiful range and tiny damage they really become rather useless, but thats not the true part which limits the unit. What really prevents them from ever being what Dustin and his cronies dreamed they should do is the core "massive numbers of units" design for SC2. Against huge armies you simply cant use this kind of cutesy gimmicky unit and their combat stats - which are appropriate for their speed and cliffjumping maneuverability - because you need true combat power once the engagement begins. Since the game is designed to be all about "massive engagements" from the mid game onwards they become totally useless there and then ...
They could only make the Reaper useful later on if they abolished their stupid concept of mass battles, but that is really really REALLY unlikely. So, Dustin, just give up on this unit and work on mech instead ...
Any unit can always be salvaged. Giving the reaper a small aoe for instance would do wonders to it, and make them viable with bio vs zerg all the way to lategame. Unfortunately then they would fill much of the same role as the hellion, and thats not what they want.
Also, more scouting early game scouting is good for all the races. More information means that players can feel more confident about being aggressive and not have to play as defensively. I have always felt that lack of constant, early game information gathering is the reason why the current metagame is so defensive. If the reaper fills this role, more power to it. If they can find a way to give it a neat late game upgrade that gives small groups of them something useful to do, also awesome.
Not sure. Sometimes I feel like there should be better ways to look into an opponents base. But I also dislike the other side, like the complete information zerg gets (needs? not so sure about that) vs Protoss early on. Or mass creep spread/mass scans in the late- and endgame, when you have full information on an opponents movement, which is just too much, as he can never trick you.
I like the direction the reaper is taking without the techlab. It makes getting them very easy, but you still need gas, so it cant be a supereco/superscout build. I hope they do something in that regards with Zerg. It's a bit too much you can do off of just minerals early on to be good (=dynamic/agressive/punishing) imo. But maybe the MSC and the widow mine fix that already.
PvZ early-to-mid game plays exactly the same as WOL. Protoss can still do 3-immortal push or pheonix-colossus push and kill Zerg before BL. Zerg needs to have something that can defend those pushes more reliably, since in late-game Protoss now has tempest and skytoss to deal with BL/Infestor. Protoss doesn't need to kill Zerg before BL now but they still can. This will lead to balance problems.
TvP Mech is still not viable. They should buff tank damage and they don't need to worry about TvZ because of how powerful viper is in terms of shutting down mech.'
FF is still broken as fuck. If they don't want to change warpgate, then fucking nerf FF and buff Zealot and Stalker a bit.
Oracle is now the worst-designed unit ever. Two vision spells and a voidray-like weapon? Just how can you make something that is so overlapped and redundant. Either give oracle bw irradiation or bring time-warp back, and combine revelation and evision into one spell.
On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote: I hate how blizzard do things. Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix. Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes. Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore.
I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit.
The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough.
But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead?
The Reaper is a "gimmicky" unit which has only its speed and the jump ability to go for it. This is far less user friendly / useful than Blink of Stalkers in a battle. Coupled with their pitiful range and tiny damage they really become rather useless, but thats not the true part which limits the unit. What really prevents them from ever being what Dustin and his cronies dreamed they should do is the core "massive numbers of units" design for SC2. Against huge armies you simply cant use this kind of cutesy gimmicky unit and their combat stats - which are appropriate for their speed and cliffjumping maneuverability - because you need true combat power once the engagement begins. Since the game is designed to be all about "massive engagements" from the mid game onwards they become totally useless there and then ...
They could only make the Reaper useful later on if they abolished their stupid concept of mass battles, but that is really really REALLY unlikely. So, Dustin, just give up on this unit and work on mech instead ...
Any unit can always be salvaged. Giving the reaper a small aoe for instance would do wonders to it, and make them viable with bio vs zerg all the way to lategame. Unfortunately then they would fill much of the same role as the hellion, and thats not what they want.
Also, more scouting early game scouting is good for all the races. More information means that players can feel more confident about being aggressive and not have to play as defensively. I have always felt that lack of constant, early game information gathering is the reason why the current metagame is so defensive. If the reaper fills this role, more power to it. If they can find a way to give it a neat late game upgrade that gives small groups of them something useful to do, also awesome.
Thats an interesting theory. Do you think the game would be more aggressive if both parties didn't have any fog of war? Or is there a limit to what you should be able to see untill no one bothers to do anything because they'd know exactly what to do anyways? I know it sc2 wont be the same without fow. But just wondering if whetever other or newer games would benefit from it.
I think some of the best micro battles we see in the game are when the players know exactly what the other side has. If you think of early game TvP in WoL, there is some really awesome stuff that happens in an early game pressure with marines and that single stalker that is always out on the map. The reason they do that is because both sides know what they are facing. But as the game goes on , becomes hard and hard for players to know exactly what they are facing and they become more defensive.
I don’t think perfect information is good, but right now there are several minutes in the early game where one side in each match up is in the dark. Protoss can’t tell if the zerg invested in lings and ling speed or when a terran started stim or when medivacs come out. Most of this is dealt with my players super defensive and having a built that allows you to deal with anything the other side throws at you, or some form of blind aggression that players can hopefully pull back from.
I don’t think it is the only problem with the WoL, metagame, but it seems to be a large one. A lot of the professionals are very good, but aggression does not seem to pay off in the early/mid game. I really thing this is because they have to spend so much money and effort to basic information like what unit the opponent is building. Giving everyone a way to collect information on the map, constantly, it better than the current metagame. If people have better information, such as the exact army size or set up, the games will be more awesome as a whole.
plansix i really like your post here things i think are similar, interactions i really like: the marines vs 1 stalker interaction or the CB zeal+stalker 12g vs 4 rines micro battle or how slayerscoca used to make 8 lings on every ohana zvt and kill the terrans marines+ bunker, lol
when battles are practiced thats when the meta happens. For example in some taeja tvps, he'll go up to 4 medivacs totally blindly and by this point he is poking pretty hard, but he starts 2 vikings > lets them finish vs collosus > cancels vs HT and grabs an academy
everyone has seen a 10 min +1 medivac in TvP, protoss knows to expect it. it becomes a game of positioning with blink stalkers in the main, focefields in the front and just as perfect decision making as possible for both sides cause terran can really do dmg in this time and potentially even end the game by sniping key units. they cool thing is seeing players like taeja reactively alter their production while attacking simply because of learned timings and experience its really what separates the best from the rest
in zvt there is some darkness on 4p maps but you can still operate on some queues. i was watching mkp in WCG vs some zerg, he didnt really play very well at this tournament but he dropped a 3rd CC the minute he was sure it was a 4queen build. Like literally the second he saw the 2 queens at the front making the tumors he made a 3rd CC. obviously this doesn't mean his speed is extremely delayed like its a 6q build,and zerg could have even started a gas before queens 3/4. he can't really know, but he is really only operating based on unit count
the ordering of 3cc really does changes for some players based on what they see from zerg, if they are just blindly dropping everything at the same timing their execution might be sick but imo i'd rather be 100% sure of a decision and make it 15 seconds later than blindly doing it esp vs z
On January 22 2013 04:38 larse wrote: PvZ early-to-mid game plays exactly the same as WOL. Protoss can still do 3-immortal push or pheonix-colossus push and kill Zerg before BL. Zerg needs to have something that can defend those pushes more reliably, since in late-game Protoss now has tempest and skytoss to deal with BL/Infestor. Protoss doesn't need to kill Zerg before BL now but they still can. This will lead to balance problems.
TvP Mech is still not viable. They should buff tank damage and they don't need to worry about TvZ because of how powerful viper is in terms of shutting down mech.'
FF is still broken as fuck. If they don't want to change warpgate, then fucking nerf FF and buff Zealot and Stalker a bit.
Oracle is now the worst-designed unit ever. Two vision spells and a voidray-like weapon? Just how can you make something that is so overlapped and redundant. Either give oracle bw irradiation or bring time-warp back, and combine revelation and evision into one spell.
irradiate would be fucking out of control on oracles
I really think that its stupid that you cannot be aggressive in zvp or zvt.
Seriously mothership core + forcefields make any aggression almost throwing the game away. Widow mines+ vikings makes it so you cannot attack terran for a large period of time, combine that with tanks and you cant really ever attack before huge mass or t3.
They are making the same mistake, the game will evolve to a passive 15minutes macro race to deathball armies. They need to promote unit trading all game, just like in broodwar.\
Seriously, remove forcefield, balance accordingly. Give better option for a zerg to have mobile detection that wont die so easily to 1-2 viking+ widow mines. Nerf mothership core defensive abilities... Im not sure just throwing those out there but...
We NEED to have it viable to trade units ALL game... As long as you micro well, it should always be an option.
Right now... No amount of micro will make it viable to trade with a protoss early when they have mothership core that you cant attack+ forcefields. Widowmines and siege tanks and turrets makes it super cost inneffective to pressure a terran with everything zerg has.
The prize money and viewership for tournaments is always droping... and im almost sure its because the games are so predictable nowadays... and the first 10minutes of the games are always the same unless its all-in... super passive, turtle to deathball.
Seriously, what is everyones favorite matchup?? Its ZvT Ling bane mutas vs marine siege tanks wol style pre infestor buff.
Why? Unit trading all game, alot of aggression on both sides, TONS OF MICRO INVOlved where battles can swing one way or another depending on micro and engagement.
They need to take example on that, and try to make every matchup similiar to this.
On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote: Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z. Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz: "We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of." "Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base." "Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz: We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz. "Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it." "Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz: "Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro. BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is.. I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
my god it's posts like this that make me not want to read any of the threads in this section.
On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote: Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z. Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz: "We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of." "Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base." "Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz: We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz. "Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it." "Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz: "Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro. BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is.. I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
my god it's posts like this that make me not want to read any of the threads in this section.
Exactly. People need to let it go for a while. We can't conclude an update that early imo. Pros find different tactics sometimes long after the upgrade was applied.
On January 22 2013 05:31 c0sm0naut wrote: plansix i really like your post here things i think are similar, interactions i really like: the marines vs 1 stalker interaction or the CB zeal+stalker 12g vs 4 rines micro battle or how slayerscoca used to make 8 lings on every ohana zvt and kill the terrans marines+ bunker, lol
when battles are practiced thats when the meta happens. For example in some taeja tvps, he'll go up to 4 medivacs totally blindly and by this point he is poking pretty hard, but he starts 2 vikings > lets them finish vs collosus > cancels vs HT and grabs an academy
everyone has seen a 10 min +1 medivac in TvP, protoss knows to expect it. it becomes a game of positioning with blink stalkers in the main, focefields in the front and just as perfect decision making as possible for both sides cause terran can really do dmg in this time and potentially even end the game by sniping key units. they cool thing is seeing players like taeja reactively alter their production while attacking simply because of learned timings and experience its really what separates the best from the rest
in zvt there is some darkness on 4p maps but you can still operate on some queues. i was watching mkp in WCG vs some zerg, he didnt really play very well at this tournament but he dropped a 3rd CC the minute he was sure it was a 4queen build. Like literally the second he saw the 2 queens at the front making the tumors he made a 3rd CC. obviously this doesn't mean his speed is extremely delayed like its a 6q build,and zerg could have even started a gas before queens 3/4. he can't really know, but he is really only operating based on unit count
the ordering of 3cc really does changes for some players based on what they see from zerg, if they are just blindly dropping everything at the same timing their execution might be sick but imo i'd rather be 100% sure of a decision and make it 15 seconds later than blindly doing it esp vs z
It goes even farther than that. If you look at PvZ early game, while the third hatch is building, the main reason protoss does not have any presence on the map is that they have so little information. They don't know the army size, if the zerg has speed or if they are going heavy roaches. Often, they don't even know how many queens the zerg has. Any protoss army of any size is limited to the speed of the slowest unit, which is the sentry and zealot, which limits their options of escape if they get attacked early or the zerg build a bunch of early lings. Because the units cost a lot and the protoss also needs them to defendant, they choose the safer route a tutle.
If the protoss could know how big the zergs army was, even if they had to work for it, they could decide when to put on stalker or zealot pressure. But the important part is that they cannot get the information one time, like a scan. They need to collect the information over and over to have the option to call off the pressure or change plans. People say things like the MSC recall is free agression without risk, but it allows for some form of pressure where there currently is none. The same goes for the reaper. Currently in WoL, the terran risks 600 minerals in hellions just to make sure the zerg has taken a third and is not all-ining them. Just think of what they could do if they could confirm that earlier with just a reaper, every, single, game, without fail.
I like a world where we all can know what is going on if we are willing to work hard enough for it.
I'd love to see them balance around the removal of forcefield. Giving stalkers even +1 damage would make 6gate allin virtually impossible for Zerg to beat as +1 stalkers would kill zerglings in 3 hits instead of 4, making them ineffective as a counter.
On January 22 2013 08:24 Xequecal wrote: I'd love to see them balance around the removal of forcefield. Giving stalkers even +1 damage would make 6gate allin virtually impossible for Zerg to beat as +1 stalkers would kill zerglings in 3 hits instead of 4, making them ineffective as a counter.
At this point it would be near impossible. I also don't think forcefields is that bad of a spell anymore, especially in hots. No one is making 12 sentries anymore to cover the map in forcefields, because they will be rendered useless the second archons are on the field, while greatly increasing the time you need to tech up (they do cost 100 gas after all. Having 3 sentries instead of 12 gives you 900 extra gas to play with! That is a lot).
On January 22 2013 08:24 Xequecal wrote: I'd love to see them balance around the removal of forcefield. Giving stalkers even +1 damage would make 6gate allin virtually impossible for Zerg to beat as +1 stalkers would kill zerglings in 3 hits instead of 4, making them ineffective as a counter.
Instead of buffing units because you happen to favor that race, why not reintroduce new game play elements? Like EMP taking out FF or gaurdian shield blocking an EMP then dissipating afterwards or when you FF a unit they can't get damage/attack (acting as a stasis field) or moving DTs to the templar archives or restoring snipe to how it was prenerf but only reducing damage to massive units or making spore and spines massive units or making fungal only root on creep or giving the corrupter an ability to reduce armor.
I much rather have Blizzard introduce new micro abilities or spells than changing stats on units, because if the last two years of WOL is any indication people will just build what ever is OP at the moment.
One realistic thing I would like Blizzard to do is move Viper to being available after Lair and moving Infestor to a tier3 unit. Rather than relying on a spell caster that damages, you can force people to use a supportive spell caster during the mid game instead of the boring infestor play we've seen the last 6 months. I mean Zergs are able to tech to Hive pretty fast, I doubt switching the infestor to tier 3 would have much of an effect.
On January 18 2013 13:53 IamPryda wrote: tier 1 burrowed roaches are just retarded now that mothership core cant detect
What exactly is retarded about them? The health regen has to be researched, burrow movement has to be researched. Both of those are t2.
Health regen is free lol
So yeah. Roach aggression. When a roach gets weak, burrow it. Essentially, you can keep pressure forever on a FE terran until they can outright kill the roaches from full health.
Zerg players dont use "Roach burrow micro" because they dont need it. They dont even research burrow most of the time and still win.
Protoss players HAVE TO use Blink or Forcefield to make their Stalkers last in a straight up battle and yet Zerg players DONT have to do the same with burrow ... seems really unfair.
It is so unfair that protoss have to micro their units. Wtf is blizzard thinking for fucks sake!?!? My gosh everyone knows that terrans are the only ones who micro...
On January 22 2013 08:24 Xequecal wrote: I'd love to see them balance around the removal of forcefield. Giving stalkers even +1 damage would make 6gate allin virtually impossible for Zerg to beat as +1 stalkers would kill zerglings in 3 hits instead of 4, making them ineffective as a counter.
Not really ... if you keep the health of Stalkers the same. The real problem is the massive number of units combined with the perfectly tight unit movement. This increases the "damage per square" according to the size of the unit and the rather very small Zerglings and Marines (stronger for the Marines since they are ranged and more than the front line can shoot) gain a lot more than the rather big Stalkers. Since you also have smaller battles of 1 Stalker against a 3-4 Zerglings this is problem for the unit balance. Stalkers also require Blink to be useful ... in addition to Forcefield ... so things get even more complicated than that.
On January 22 2013 04:38 larse wrote: PvZ early-to-mid game plays exactly the same as WOL. Protoss can still do 3-immortal push or pheonix-colossus push and kill Zerg before BL. Zerg needs to have something that can defend those pushes more reliably, since in late-game Protoss now has tempest and skytoss to deal with BL/Infestor. Protoss doesn't need to kill Zerg before BL now but they still can. This will lead to balance problems.
TvP Mech is still not viable. They should buff tank damage and they don't need to worry about TvZ because of how powerful viper is in terms of shutting down mech.'
FF is still broken as fuck. If they don't want to change warpgate, then fucking nerf FF and buff Zealot and Stalker a bit.
Oracle is now the worst-designed unit ever. Two vision spells and a voidray-like weapon? Just how can you make something that is so overlapped and redundant. Either give oracle bw irradiation or bring time-warp back, and combine revelation and evision into one spell.
irradiate would be fucking out of control on oracles
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans).
Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain.
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely.
In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL.
Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers.
In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens.
Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time.
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans).
Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain.
On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely.
In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL.
Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers.
In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens.
Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time.
The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green.
The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor.
The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us.
Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have.
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans).
Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain.
On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely.
In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL.
Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers.
In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens.
Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time.
The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green.
The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor.
The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us.
Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have.
Well, if you're going to use burrow to save your banelings, I'm just gonna go use those 100/100 on 4 more banelings.
On January 21 2013 22:03 Ordok wrote: I am still waiting for some revolutionary change to the Corruptor. Such booring unit at the moment =(
You know, I've been thinking about this and am now of the opinion that the Alpha incarnation of the Corruptor might be just what the current version needs. My suggestion would be to remove Corruption's current effect and replace it with essentially Neural Parasite. I'd leave the ability timer-based initially (although I'd extend the timer to 90s or something). However, like in the Alpha, "corrupted" units would be unable to move, but you can use it on ground units too making the Corruptor useful against ground so the Corruptor is less of a one-trick pony. With Neural Parasite gone from the Infestor I'd then suggest to split up Fungal into 2 skills now, basically bringing back Plague for the damage portion and leaving the root as Fungal, but adding the damage increase effect from Corruption to it. In this way, Zerg retains all of its abilities, they've just been shuffled around some, potentially nerfing the Infestor enough that Infested Terrans can actually benefit from upgrades again while adding to the usefulness of the Corruptor after enemy air is gone.
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans).
Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain.
On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely.
In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL.
Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers.
In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens.
Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time.
The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green.
The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor.
The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us.
Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have.
Well, if you're going to use burrow to save your banelings, I'm just gonna go use those 100/100 on 4 more banelings.
Burrow isnt good for "saving Banelings" but rather excellent in creating traps for your opponents units. You might get your additional Banelings, but your Zerglings wont really get in due to the Baneling mines ... and since Overseers are T2 you - theoretically - cant do anything remotely risky until that time and you kinda HAVE TO spend those 150 gas to get T2 and the Overseer to see the mines in the first place. Which way will work out better will be shown in time; all I am saying is that early burrow creates the RISK of making early ZvZ rather one-sided by forcing Roaches due to Baneling mines preventing Zergling aggression.
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans).
Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain.
On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely.
In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL.
Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers.
In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens.
Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time.
The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green.
The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor.
The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us.
Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have.
My post (which yours quoted and responded to) was about nothing but how HotS's changes were mainly things from BW. Your saying now you didnt compare anything to defiler, but your exact words were "Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain."...
Once again, that's an exact change from BW (the point of my post, which again, you were responding to and arguing with). Not to mention you talk like Vipers are "always" at full energy, when their energy regen pales in comparison to Defilers consume, since you actually need to return to your base to full Viper energy.
Sure, Viper is a character with very powerful spells, once again Defiler was one of the most powerful casters in BW (at least in ZvT where it was one of the staple units). That's one of the primary things Zerg as a race was known for in the matchup, which is why it was so upsetting that they removed it in WoL. It removed one of the primary timings and counters for Terran, which was specifically why they have to overbuff Infestors and make silly Zerg balance.
Another once again... you don't seem to be listening to the fact that if you go early burrow you have to drastically change your build order from a strong economic build to an offensive one. This is the one thing people aren't understanding about the burrow change. They think Zerg players can just train it up and go on with their day, in order to get burrow early enough to stop your harrass they are either giving up Queens (which is devestating to your economy, and your defenses early game, as having 4 early game queens if primary to WoL and macro strategies) or you are giving up Lair (leaving you extremely vulnerable to both stealthers and air units, especially without the queens).
That's precisely why you have to "use scans". The zerg player needs to invest a lot more than the 100/100 to train burrow early - it drastically sets back their macro. At which point Terran has to make a choice - they could spend the scans on Mules instead and try to win economically (which if you do you will dwarf Zergs economy since they did no go with a macro based BO) or you can invest in going aggressive and try to take out the Zerg with burrow.
Top of ladder actually does matter a bit, you are still talking about Protoss dominance, when prior to the last 2 patches there was 13/16 Protoss players. Right now the Protoss and Terran are effectively equal, with 1 single Zerg. That speaks volume for the current balance situation. And if you really don't think Widow Mines have a place in an army... you are sadly mistaken. You are still playing WoL TvZ, if you take advantage of the new Terran units you will completely shut down WoL Zerg, forcing Zerg in to either attempting to rush Ultras (which leaves them vulnerable) or forcing Roach/Hydra/Viper (which is vulnerable to Tanks). Try taking a look at the Zerg strategy threads a bit and you may learn a thing or two about what Zerg players are having trouble with in ZvT.
I really hope Zerg becomes underpowered in HotS...I loved the "us against the world" mentality we had early on, now everyone's on the OP Zerg hating train.
On January 24 2013 08:02 mierin wrote: I really hope Zerg becomes underpowered in HotS...I loved the "us against the world" mentality we had early on, now everyone's on the OP Zerg hating train.
I would rather prefer a balanced game for all races.
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans).
Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain.
On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely.
In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL.
Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers.
In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens.
Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time.
The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green.
The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor.
The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us.
Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have.
My post (which yours quoted and responded to) was about nothing but how HotS's changes were mainly things from BW. Your saying now you didnt compare anything to defiler, but your exact words were "Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain."...
Once again, that's an exact change from BW (the point of my post, which again, you were responding to and arguing with). Not to mention you talk like Vipers are "always" at full energy, when their energy regen pales in comparison to Defilers consume, since you actually need to return to your base to full Viper energy.
Sure, Viper is a character with very powerful spells, once again Defiler was one of the most powerful casters in BW (at least in ZvT where it was one of the staple units). That's one of the primary things Zerg as a race was known for in the matchup, which is why it was so upsetting that they removed it in WoL. It removed one of the primary timings and counters for Terran, which was specifically why they have to overbuff Infestors and make silly Zerg balance.
Another once again... you don't seem to be listening to the fact that if you go early burrow you have to drastically change your build order from a strong economic build to an offensive one. This is the one thing people aren't understanding about the burrow change. They think Zerg players can just train it up and go on with their day, in order to get burrow early enough to stop your harrass they are either giving up Queens (which is devestating to your economy, and your defenses early game, as having 4 early game queens if primary to WoL and macro strategies) or you are giving up Lair (leaving you extremely vulnerable to both stealthers and air units, especially without the queens).
That's precisely why you have to "use scans". The zerg player needs to invest a lot more than the 100/100 to train burrow early - it drastically sets back their macro. At which point Terran has to make a choice - they could spend the scans on Mules instead and try to win economically (which if you do you will dwarf Zergs economy since they did no go with a macro based BO) or you can invest in going aggressive and try to take out the Zerg with burrow.
Top of ladder actually does matter a bit, you are still talking about Protoss dominance, when prior to the last 2 patches there was 13/16 Protoss players. Right now the Protoss and Terran are effectively equal, with 1 single Zerg. That speaks volume for the current balance situation. And if you really don't think Widow Mines have a place in an army... you are sadly mistaken. You are still playing WoL TvZ, if you take advantage of the new Terran units you will completely shut down WoL Zerg, forcing Zerg in to either attempting to rush Ultras (which leaves them vulnerable) or forcing Roach/Hydra/Viper (which is vulnerable to Tanks). Try taking a look at the Zerg strategy threads a bit and you may learn a thing or two about what Zerg players are having trouble with in ZvT.
1. I didnt compare the Viper to the Defiler ... they are really different, because their energy recharge abilities are different. In BW you had to eat a combat unit, but in SC2 you simply damage a building which might even follow you around (Spine Crawler). As a flying unit it can go "back to base" and recharge much easier than the Defiler anyway. The Defiler did NOT have a spell which would result in a dead enemy unit ... Protoss still had their shields, Terrans could heal and repair and Zerg would regenerate anyways. Before you argue that abduct does zero damage ... people will only use abduct if they can kill the dragged unit where it is dragged to, so it is a "kill".
2. You dont need to "drastically" change your build order ... you could simply research burrow instead of Zergling speed and go for a defensive build style that goes directly towards the mid game and skips the early game behind a screen of Baneling mines.
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans).
Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain.
On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely.
In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL.
Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers.
In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens.
Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time.
The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green.
The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor.
The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us.
Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have.
My post (which yours quoted and responded to) was about nothing but how HotS's changes were mainly things from BW. Your saying now you didnt compare anything to defiler, but your exact words were "Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain."...
Once again, that's an exact change from BW (the point of my post, which again, you were responding to and arguing with). Not to mention you talk like Vipers are "always" at full energy, when their energy regen pales in comparison to Defilers consume, since you actually need to return to your base to full Viper energy.
Sure, Viper is a character with very powerful spells, once again Defiler was one of the most powerful casters in BW (at least in ZvT where it was one of the staple units). That's one of the primary things Zerg as a race was known for in the matchup, which is why it was so upsetting that they removed it in WoL. It removed one of the primary timings and counters for Terran, which was specifically why they have to overbuff Infestors and make silly Zerg balance.
Another once again... you don't seem to be listening to the fact that if you go early burrow you have to drastically change your build order from a strong economic build to an offensive one. This is the one thing people aren't understanding about the burrow change. They think Zerg players can just train it up and go on with their day, in order to get burrow early enough to stop your harrass they are either giving up Queens (which is devestating to your economy, and your defenses early game, as having 4 early game queens if primary to WoL and macro strategies) or you are giving up Lair (leaving you extremely vulnerable to both stealthers and air units, especially without the queens).
That's precisely why you have to "use scans". The zerg player needs to invest a lot more than the 100/100 to train burrow early - it drastically sets back their macro. At which point Terran has to make a choice - they could spend the scans on Mules instead and try to win economically (which if you do you will dwarf Zergs economy since they did no go with a macro based BO) or you can invest in going aggressive and try to take out the Zerg with burrow.
Top of ladder actually does matter a bit, you are still talking about Protoss dominance, when prior to the last 2 patches there was 13/16 Protoss players. Right now the Protoss and Terran are effectively equal, with 1 single Zerg. That speaks volume for the current balance situation. And if you really don't think Widow Mines have a place in an army... you are sadly mistaken. You are still playing WoL TvZ, if you take advantage of the new Terran units you will completely shut down WoL Zerg, forcing Zerg in to either attempting to rush Ultras (which leaves them vulnerable) or forcing Roach/Hydra/Viper (which is vulnerable to Tanks). Try taking a look at the Zerg strategy threads a bit and you may learn a thing or two about what Zerg players are having trouble with in ZvT.
1. I didnt compare the Viper to the Defiler ... they are really different, because their energy recharge abilities are different. In BW you had to eat a combat unit, but in SC2 you simply damage a building which might even follow you around (Spine Crawler). As a flying unit it can go "back to base" and recharge much easier than the Defiler anyway. The Defiler did NOT have a spell which would result in a dead enemy unit ... Protoss still had their shields, Terrans could heal and repair and Zerg would regenerate anyways. Before you argue that abduct does zero damage ... people will only use abduct if they can kill the dragged unit where it is dragged to, so it is a "kill".
2. You dont need to "drastically" change your build order ... you could simply research burrow instead of Zergling speed and go for a defensive build style that goes directly towards the mid game and skips the early game behind a screen of Baneling mines.
1) It's easier to recharge on a defiler than a viper... I don't know how you could argue otherwise. Are you really trying to say its easier to go back to base and regen health, or have a spine crawler follow a unit at all times (even off creep), than it is to have a couple Zerglings around? When you can easily have a constant line of Zerglings supporting you?
2) This is a very ignorant comment. I already explained why you have to drastically change your build order, but incase you missed it I'll explain again... You can't just take it off ling speed.
Ling speed is researched on a spawning pool, Burrow is researched on a hatchery.
In every build order optimized for macro, the hatchery is busy either building Queens or researching Lair for the entire early-mid game.
In order to research early Burrow you need to give up one or both of these things, which severely harms your economy, leaves you vulnerable to air/stealth, and leaves you behind on tech. All vulnerabilities that could be taken advantage of if you are aware of them. Look at every top build order atm, they have constant queen/lair research, and most are dependent on 4 queens for defense and creep spread. You can't do that with an early burrow build...
If you wait until a Queens for each hatchery, or Lair is finished, before researching burrow, you won't be getting burrow any earlier than you could by researching it from the Lair anyway with a much stronger economy behind you.
Geez man, if you are going to argue about something being viable, at least attempt it in game first...
On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote: And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1?
I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all....
Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers.
If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL.
BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans).
Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain.
On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:
On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote: SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech.
Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game?
You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early.
Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them).
Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely.
In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL.
Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers.
In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens.
Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time.
The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green.
The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor.
The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us.
Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have.
My post (which yours quoted and responded to) was about nothing but how HotS's changes were mainly things from BW. Your saying now you didnt compare anything to defiler, but your exact words were "Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain."...
Once again, that's an exact change from BW (the point of my post, which again, you were responding to and arguing with). Not to mention you talk like Vipers are "always" at full energy, when their energy regen pales in comparison to Defilers consume, since you actually need to return to your base to full Viper energy.
Sure, Viper is a character with very powerful spells, once again Defiler was one of the most powerful casters in BW (at least in ZvT where it was one of the staple units). That's one of the primary things Zerg as a race was known for in the matchup, which is why it was so upsetting that they removed it in WoL. It removed one of the primary timings and counters for Terran, which was specifically why they have to overbuff Infestors and make silly Zerg balance.
Another once again... you don't seem to be listening to the fact that if you go early burrow you have to drastically change your build order from a strong economic build to an offensive one. This is the one thing people aren't understanding about the burrow change. They think Zerg players can just train it up and go on with their day, in order to get burrow early enough to stop your harrass they are either giving up Queens (which is devestating to your economy, and your defenses early game, as having 4 early game queens if primary to WoL and macro strategies) or you are giving up Lair (leaving you extremely vulnerable to both stealthers and air units, especially without the queens).
That's precisely why you have to "use scans". The zerg player needs to invest a lot more than the 100/100 to train burrow early - it drastically sets back their macro. At which point Terran has to make a choice - they could spend the scans on Mules instead and try to win economically (which if you do you will dwarf Zergs economy since they did no go with a macro based BO) or you can invest in going aggressive and try to take out the Zerg with burrow.
Top of ladder actually does matter a bit, you are still talking about Protoss dominance, when prior to the last 2 patches there was 13/16 Protoss players. Right now the Protoss and Terran are effectively equal, with 1 single Zerg. That speaks volume for the current balance situation. And if you really don't think Widow Mines have a place in an army... you are sadly mistaken. You are still playing WoL TvZ, if you take advantage of the new Terran units you will completely shut down WoL Zerg, forcing Zerg in to either attempting to rush Ultras (which leaves them vulnerable) or forcing Roach/Hydra/Viper (which is vulnerable to Tanks). Try taking a look at the Zerg strategy threads a bit and you may learn a thing or two about what Zerg players are having trouble with in ZvT.
1. I didnt compare the Viper to the Defiler ... they are really different, because their energy recharge abilities are different. In BW you had to eat a combat unit, but in SC2 you simply damage a building which might even follow you around (Spine Crawler). As a flying unit it can go "back to base" and recharge much easier than the Defiler anyway. The Defiler did NOT have a spell which would result in a dead enemy unit ... Protoss still had their shields, Terrans could heal and repair and Zerg would regenerate anyways. Before you argue that abduct does zero damage ... people will only use abduct if they can kill the dragged unit where it is dragged to, so it is a "kill".
2. You dont need to "drastically" change your build order ... you could simply research burrow instead of Zergling speed and go for a defensive build style that goes directly towards the mid game and skips the early game behind a screen of Baneling mines.
your whole post shows your clear lack of understanding of the timing in TvZ Yes Terran tech is more expensive, but that is also why you don't move out early until the timing is right. Similarly Zerg do a defense against the timing. If you do standard 2 base lair zerg, you can do burrow baneling just around the time when terran do their 2 base push.
terran do not need to upgrade to lair, which is essential for the zerg to have a good mid game and keep up with upgrades.
By grabbing a baneling nest, early burrow, you are severally delaying your lair/upgrades/speed. That's like doing a one base terran build but playing it defensively. It doesn't make sense.
At Scorescreen, there is a "supply blocked" and you can see if you have improved between that game and your average. Is supply blocked with or without 200/200? 200/200 makes no sense for me.
On January 26 2013 20:48 Dingodile wrote: At Scorescreen, there is a "supply blocked" and you can see if you have improved between that game and your average. Is supply blocked with or without 200/200? 200/200 makes no sense for me.
Probably time how long you're staying at maxed supply without free one
EPT
I am sure the burrow move can be very powerful, but hard to say without having played it! Looking forward to getting to testing!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fVpK7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/60141635/VR.png)
