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burrow on hatch is not op... though it leads to earlier tricks in defending you still have to spend the resources to get it... meaning less resources for units... and tunneling claws are still lair tech... so the best you get its burrow micro for keeping your units alive.... harassment will still delay mining if they burrow their drones... plus if you scan it will be like shooting fish in a barrel... it just gives the early game a little more diversity... not all zergs are gonna rush to get burrow now just cause they can but in certain situations it could be useful...
as for reapers the health increase allows you to micro better with them so they stick around longer to harass... force your opponent to make more units instead of drones/probes/scvs... i think its useful... jump in kill take a little damage retreat heal and repeat... the rapid healing is no good if they die to fast to be able to retreat...
lastly the voidrays... i don't think the change is all that relevant... of course i don't play protoss... i feel if you are gonna lose to a deathball of voidrays its because you didn't scout it and whether there are 30 or 40 because of supply cap if you are not prepared you will lose and if you are prepared you might be able to defend... the timer thing seems a little silly...
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Instead of the timer they might have allowed you to click on a voidray to see how much time it has left on its charge. Clicking on a unit and looking wherever you need to look is much more difficult than having to look at an always visible timer.
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stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote:
stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
Infestors have 12 range fungal in HOTS. Hope I didn't just blow your mind too much!
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On January 19 2013 16:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 16:45 Green Sun s Zenith wrote:
Well this finally proves my point, that the game designers and balance team are looking for action games. They want action units and more highly anticipated games, which is fine but it really doesn't seem like they care to much about balancing it out." We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. " Don't worry about balance or anything ; ) Given there is tons of time to balance the game , in my opinion I don't like where the game is going and its evolving into shit ever since brood war ended. I really hope at least they make new exciting maps instead of worrying so much about the action that the units bring. I guess I'll wait and see how everything turns out. If you think hatch tech burrow is imbalanced you really have a lot to look at. If it's because it "forces out detection earlier" well fuck what do you think we have to do when you protosses go 1 base DT or 2 base DT? We are forced to get detection earlier or well we die. The complaining is just so so silly, terran can force zerg detection early, protoss can, and zerg can't. Zerg now can and "OMG SO IMBALANCED". Yeah no not even close.
It's a bit different, you're not taking into account how the macro mechanics of the three races work. If Zerg's macro is left unchecked, their economy grows at a faster rate than P/T economies.
If Terran is forced to use mules, it's a free advantage for Zerg.
And if you're able to burrow block Protosses 3rd with lings or burrow banes to stop any and all type of aggression, it doesn't let Protoss keep up as easily with Zerg economy.
Buffing Zerg early game is never a good idea!
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On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote:
stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
You never played BW right ?
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On January 20 2013 07:20 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 16:59 blade55555 wrote:On January 19 2013 16:45 Green Sun s Zenith wrote:
Well this finally proves my point, that the game designers and balance team are looking for action games. They want action units and more highly anticipated games, which is fine but it really doesn't seem like they care to much about balancing it out." We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. " Don't worry about balance or anything ; ) Given there is tons of time to balance the game , in my opinion I don't like where the game is going and its evolving into shit ever since brood war ended. I really hope at least they make new exciting maps instead of worrying so much about the action that the units bring. I guess I'll wait and see how everything turns out. If you think hatch tech burrow is imbalanced you really have a lot to look at. If it's because it "forces out detection earlier" well fuck what do you think we have to do when you protosses go 1 base DT or 2 base DT? We are forced to get detection earlier or well we die. The complaining is just so so silly, terran can force zerg detection early, protoss can, and zerg can't. Zerg now can and "OMG SO IMBALANCED". Yeah no not even close. It's a bit different, you're not taking into account how the macro mechanics of the three races work. If Zerg's macro is left unchecked, their economy grows at a faster rate than P/T economies. If Terran is forced to use mules, it's a free advantage for Zerg.And if you're able to burrow block Protosses 3rd with lings or burrow banes to stop any and all type of aggression, it doesn't let Protoss keep up as easily with Zerg economy. Buffing Zerg early game is never a good idea!
How do you force something for free? Sorry but that's a contradiction in itself... If Zerg FORCEs Terran to scan, Zerg has to invest. So it's not a "free" advantage. You pay for something, and if you do it right you get a return.
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The thing about the earlier burrow is that it encourages FFE even more as protoss, which makes for somewhat less-exciting (longer, more passive) games. Obviously an FFE can still go into many aggressive builds, but none of those builds are 1 base, making the first 9 minutes of the game totally passive, with zerg almost always getting 3 bases.
Considering that FFE is totally Standard right now anyway though, this burrow change essentially doesn't change that at all, but maybe digs SC2 into a bit of a rut.
I miss old maps with larger natural entrances or two entrances. With early burrow such maps might be banished from existence due to even more balance whining where people try to claim that FFE is the only possibly way to win.
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The closest use to abusing burrow at hatch tech is against protoss and opening up 7 pool. Not sure how viable it is.
Basically you have to deny their nat, destroy their forge and start grabbing gas by about 15-16 supply and then research burrow asap. I've had minor success with it. Other than denying 3rds I haven't seen much change with burrow being hatch tech when I've tried to use it.
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On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote:
stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
User was temp banned for this post.
You needed a queens nest to get to hive in BW.. And none really used queens (cept zero). Didn't seem to bother anyone.
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On January 20 2013 09:23 sagefreke wrote:
The closest use to abusing burrow at hatch tech is against protoss and opening up 7 pool. Not sure how viable it is.
Basically you have to deny their nat, destroy their forge and start grabbing gas by about 15-16 supply and then research burrow asap. I've had minor success with it. Other than denying 3rds I haven't seen much change with burrow being hatch tech when I've tried to use it.
I don't know how sucessful that would be. Early gas is an econ hit, and 7 pool is also an econ hit. I would assume you would need to do something slightly less damaging pool timing wise (eg 8 or 9) to make up for the added loss of workers on gas.
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On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote:
stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
User was temp banned for this post.
Even if this were true (it's not, infestors are still ridiculously op) having to build an infestation pit to tech is not as bad as Terrans literally flying around their factory as a scout IN EVERY TVP GAME FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF. Talk about a useless tech structure...
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On January 20 2013 11:56 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote:
stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
User was temp banned for this post. Even if this were true (it's not, infestors are still ridiculously op) having to build an infestation pit to tech is not as bad as Terrans literally flying around their factory as a scout IN EVERY TVP GAME FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF. Talk about a useless tech structure...
No, they're not RIDICULOUSLY OP. They're ridiculously boring and everything that is wrong with SC 2 and its attempts to be a legit competitive game. Well, them, sentries, colossi, marauders etc.
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On January 20 2013 12:04 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 11:56 GorGor wrote:On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote:
stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
User was temp banned for this post. Even if this were true (it's not, infestors are still ridiculously op) having to build an infestation pit to tech is not as bad as Terrans literally flying around their factory as a scout IN EVERY TVP GAME FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF. Talk about a useless tech structure... No, they're not RIDICULOUSLY OP. They're ridiculously boring and everything that is wrong with SC 2 and its attempts to be a legit competitive game. Well, them, sentries, colossi, marauders etc.
Just because they're boring doesn't mean they can't be in the catagory of OP as well. They are still a unit which can win games singlehandedly. Just a little bit more difficult (if having 12 range with a "projectile" that moves fast as fuck is considered difficult).
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instead of nerfing fungal i have a better idea
im sure a majority of the reason fungal was nerfed (30 damage instead of 40) was because of its power vs vikings. david kim doesnt admit that, but i bet thats a big reason for it as david kim plays random and any terran player must know how incredibly ridiculous it is to have thousands of resources die in seconds to fungal, and vikings automatically clump in some way in every real game scenario when fighting broodlords/corrupters
david kim as a random player likely eventually realized now is the time to act on the issue
how about this
increase viking health to 200
then DECREASE viking attackspeed to give it the same "combat value"
heres what i mean by that
1 viking will pretty much barely lose or win against 1 corrupter (depending on who shoots first)
i think it also barely wins against a roach too
simply decrease the viking attackspeed to the point where it STILL barely loses to a corrupter, but then the increased health makes it more resiliant to fungal
also, decrease the groundmode attackspeed of the viking to keep it with the same "combat value". I think the easiest way to do this is to test 1 roach vs 1 viking (no upgrades) and record how much damage is dealt to the viking before the roach dies. then with the viking health increased to 200, reduce its ground attackspeed so the roach still dies with that much damage percentage being dealt to the viking
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whoa burrow change could get crazy
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So what make the game even more a-move oriented?
If fungal didn't root it would never be an issue, if you got fungaled you could attempt to run away and not lose 15 vikings without being able to do anything to stop it.
If anything fungal should be like ensnare in bw with the added benefit of reducing armor on units. Not a root spell that also does shitloads of damage, there is no way to look at that and say that it is good spell design.
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On January 20 2013 12:12 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 12:04 Serpico wrote:On January 20 2013 11:56 GorGor wrote:On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote:
stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore
User was temp banned for this post. Even if this were true (it's not, infestors are still ridiculously op) having to build an infestation pit to tech is not as bad as Terrans literally flying around their factory as a scout IN EVERY TVP GAME FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF. Talk about a useless tech structure... No, they're not RIDICULOUSLY OP. They're ridiculously boring and everything that is wrong with SC 2 and its attempts to be a legit competitive game. Well, them, sentries, colossi, marauders etc. Just because they're boring doesn't mean they can't be in the catagory of OP as well. They are still a unit which can win games singlehandedly. Just a little bit more difficult (if having 12 range with a "projectile" that moves fast as fuck is considered difficult).
That is a bullcrap, people are still trying to mass Infestors and are having no success because Infested Terran tickles in the late game. Fungal damage is nerfed, so you will only use them for Fungal(probably) and for that, you don't need more than 5 of them. They are the true support units now, as they should be, and if you think that they can win the game singlehandedly, yes, I guess as much as Ghosts, Ravens and High Templars can...
They were overpowered in WoL, but they are nerfed a lot in the HotS and with the addition of new units in HotS, they are not even close to what they were before.
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On January 20 2013 12:37 bankobauss wrote:
instead of nerfing fungal i have a better idea
im sure a majority of the reason fungal was nerfed (30 damage instead of 40) was because of its power vs vikings. david kim doesnt admit that, but i bet thats a big reason for it as david kim plays random and any terran player must know how incredibly ridiculous it is to have thousands of resources die in seconds to fungal, and vikings automatically clump in some way in every real game scenario when fighting broodlords/corrupters
david kim as a random player likely eventually realized now is the time to act on the issue
how about this
increase viking health to 200
then DECREASE viking attackspeed to give it the same "combat value"
heres what i mean by that
1 viking will pretty much barely lose or win against 1 corrupter (depending on who shoots first)
i think it also barely wins against a roach too
simply decrease the viking attackspeed to the point where it STILL barely loses to a corrupter, but then the increased health makes it more resiliant to fungal
also, decrease the groundmode attackspeed of the viking to keep it with the same "combat value". I think the easiest way to do this is to test 1 roach vs 1 viking (no upgrades) and record how much damage is dealt to the viking before the roach dies. then with the viking health increased to 200, reduce its ground attackspeed so the roach still dies with that much damage percentage being dealt to the viking
Sure, in ZvT. But suddenly colossi rape your bio army before the vikings manage to focus them down to their lower attackspeed (=less damage).
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I really wish Blizzard would come out and tell the community they REALLY need help with this expansion.
How about you fly out 9 progamers, 3 from each race. Get them to play TONS of games, and ask for their opinions.
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EPT
