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On January 21 2013 22:03 Ordok wrote:
I am still waiting for some revolutionary change to the Corruptor. Such booring unit at the moment =(
You know, I've been thinking about this and am now of the opinion that the Alpha incarnation of the Corruptor might be just what the current version needs. My suggestion would be to remove Corruption's current effect and replace it with essentially Neural Parasite. I'd leave the ability timer-based initially (although I'd extend the timer to 90s or something). However, like in the Alpha, "corrupted" units would be unable to move, but you can use it on ground units too making the Corruptor useful against ground so the Corruptor is less of a one-trick pony. With Neural Parasite gone from the Infestor I'd then suggest to split up Fungal into 2 skills now, basically bringing back Plague for the damage portion and leaving the root as Fungal, but adding the damage increase effect from Corruption to it. In this way, Zerg retains all of its abilities, they've just been shuffled around some, potentially nerfing the Infestor enough that Infested Terrans can actually benefit from upgrades again while adding to the usefulness of the Corruptor after enemy air is gone.
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On January 23 2013 01:49 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 19:39 Rabiator wrote:On January 22 2013 18:56 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 14:09 Rabiator wrote:On January 21 2013 10:52 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote:
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3. Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1? I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all.... Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers. If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL. BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans). Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain. On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote:
SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech. Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game? You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early. Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them). You are making up problems. Baneling Nest 100/50 Burrow 100/100 Baneling 50/25 Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely. In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL. Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers. In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens. Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time. The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green. The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor. The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us. Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have. Well, if you're going to use burrow to save your banelings, I'm just gonna go use those 100/100 on 4 more banelings.
Burrow isnt good for "saving Banelings" but rather excellent in creating traps for your opponents units. You might get your additional Banelings, but your Zerglings wont really get in due to the Baneling mines ... and since Overseers are T2 you - theoretically - cant do anything remotely risky until that time and you kinda HAVE TO spend those 150 gas to get T2 and the Overseer to see the mines in the first place. Which way will work out better will be shown in time; all I am saying is that early burrow creates the RISK of making early ZvZ rather one-sided by forcing Roaches due to Baneling mines preventing Zergling aggression.
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This is from an interview with Dustin Browder by a Chinese website that came out today.
This interview was taken after the Patch 11.
Dustin Browder:"As the game getting closer to release, we won't change the balance so frequently........",
"After the release, we can't change things so dramatically......."
Source: http://s.163.com/13/0122/13/8LR0KDIA00314Q71.html
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On January 22 2013 19:39 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 18:56 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 14:09 Rabiator wrote:On January 21 2013 10:52 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote:
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3. Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1? I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all.... Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers. If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL. BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans). Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain. On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote:
SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech. Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game? You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early. Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them). You are making up problems. Baneling Nest 100/50 Burrow 100/100 Baneling 50/25 Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely. In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL. Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers. In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens. Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time. The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green. The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor. The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us. Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have.
My post (which yours quoted and responded to) was about nothing but how HotS's changes were mainly things from BW. Your saying now you didnt compare anything to defiler, but your exact words were "Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain."...
Once again, that's an exact change from BW (the point of my post, which again, you were responding to and arguing with). Not to mention you talk like Vipers are "always" at full energy, when their energy regen pales in comparison to Defilers consume, since you actually need to return to your base to full Viper energy.
Sure, Viper is a character with very powerful spells, once again Defiler was one of the most powerful casters in BW (at least in ZvT where it was one of the staple units). That's one of the primary things Zerg as a race was known for in the matchup, which is why it was so upsetting that they removed it in WoL. It removed one of the primary timings and counters for Terran, which was specifically why they have to overbuff Infestors and make silly Zerg balance.
Another once again... you don't seem to be listening to the fact that if you go early burrow you have to drastically change your build order from a strong economic build to an offensive one. This is the one thing people aren't understanding about the burrow change. They think Zerg players can just train it up and go on with their day, in order to get burrow early enough to stop your harrass they are either giving up Queens (which is devestating to your economy, and your defenses early game, as having 4 early game queens if primary to WoL and macro strategies) or you are giving up Lair (leaving you extremely vulnerable to both stealthers and air units, especially without the queens).
That's precisely why you have to "use scans". The zerg player needs to invest a lot more than the 100/100 to train burrow early - it drastically sets back their macro. At which point Terran has to make a choice - they could spend the scans on Mules instead and try to win economically (which if you do you will dwarf Zergs economy since they did no go with a macro based BO) or you can invest in going aggressive and try to take out the Zerg with burrow.
Top of ladder actually does matter a bit, you are still talking about Protoss dominance, when prior to the last 2 patches there was 13/16 Protoss players. Right now the Protoss and Terran are effectively equal, with 1 single Zerg. That speaks volume for the current balance situation. And if you really don't think Widow Mines have a place in an army... you are sadly mistaken. You are still playing WoL TvZ, if you take advantage of the new Terran units you will completely shut down WoL Zerg, forcing Zerg in to either attempting to rush Ultras (which leaves them vulnerable) or forcing Roach/Hydra/Viper (which is vulnerable to Tanks). Try taking a look at the Zerg strategy threads a bit and you may learn a thing or two about what Zerg players are having trouble with in ZvT.
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I really hope Zerg becomes underpowered in HotS...I loved the "us against the world" mentality we had early on, now everyone's on the OP Zerg hating train.
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On January 24 2013 08:02 mierin wrote:
I really hope Zerg becomes underpowered in HotS...I loved the "us against the world" mentality we had early on, now everyone's on the OP Zerg hating train.
I would rather prefer a balanced game for all races.
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Has any1 encounted the problem where you can't create any custom game? They ask me to upgrade to HOTS, which I already did...
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On January 24 2013 05:49 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 19:39 Rabiator wrote:On January 22 2013 18:56 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 14:09 Rabiator wrote:On January 21 2013 10:52 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote:
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3. Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1? I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all.... Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers. If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL. BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans). Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain. On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote:
SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech. Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game? You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early. Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them). You are making up problems. Baneling Nest 100/50 Burrow 100/100 Baneling 50/25 Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely. In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL. Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers. In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens. Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time. The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green. The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor. The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us. Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have. My post (which yours quoted and responded to) was about nothing but how HotS's changes were mainly things from BW. Your saying now you didnt compare anything to defiler, but your exact words were "Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain."... Once again, that's an exact change from BW (the point of my post, which again, you were responding to and arguing with). Not to mention you talk like Vipers are "always" at full energy, when their energy regen pales in comparison to Defilers consume, since you actually need to return to your base to full Viper energy. Sure, Viper is a character with very powerful spells, once again Defiler was one of the most powerful casters in BW (at least in ZvT where it was one of the staple units). That's one of the primary things Zerg as a race was known for in the matchup, which is why it was so upsetting that they removed it in WoL. It removed one of the primary timings and counters for Terran, which was specifically why they have to overbuff Infestors and make silly Zerg balance. Another once again... you don't seem to be listening to the fact that if you go early burrow you have to drastically change your build order from a strong economic build to an offensive one. This is the one thing people aren't understanding about the burrow change. They think Zerg players can just train it up and go on with their day, in order to get burrow early enough to stop your harrass they are either giving up Queens (which is devestating to your economy, and your defenses early game, as having 4 early game queens if primary to WoL and macro strategies) or you are giving up Lair (leaving you extremely vulnerable to both stealthers and air units, especially without the queens). That's precisely why you have to "use scans". The zerg player needs to invest a lot more than the 100/100 to train burrow early - it drastically sets back their macro. At which point Terran has to make a choice - they could spend the scans on Mules instead and try to win economically (which if you do you will dwarf Zergs economy since they did no go with a macro based BO) or you can invest in going aggressive and try to take out the Zerg with burrow. Top of ladder actually does matter a bit, you are still talking about Protoss dominance, when prior to the last 2 patches there was 13/16 Protoss players. Right now the Protoss and Terran are effectively equal, with 1 single Zerg. That speaks volume for the current balance situation. And if you really don't think Widow Mines have a place in an army... you are sadly mistaken. You are still playing WoL TvZ, if you take advantage of the new Terran units you will completely shut down WoL Zerg, forcing Zerg in to either attempting to rush Ultras (which leaves them vulnerable) or forcing Roach/Hydra/Viper (which is vulnerable to Tanks). Try taking a look at the Zerg strategy threads a bit and you may learn a thing or two about what Zerg players are having trouble with in ZvT.
1. I didnt compare the Viper to the Defiler ... they are really different, because their energy recharge abilities are different. In BW you had to eat a combat unit, but in SC2 you simply damage a building which might even follow you around (Spine Crawler). As a flying unit it can go "back to base" and recharge much easier than the Defiler anyway. The Defiler did NOT have a spell which would result in a dead enemy unit ... Protoss still had their shields, Terrans could heal and repair and Zerg would regenerate anyways. Before you argue that abduct does zero damage ... people will only use abduct if they can kill the dragged unit where it is dragged to, so it is a "kill".
2. You dont need to "drastically" change your build order ... you could simply research burrow instead of Zergling speed and go for a defensive build style that goes directly towards the mid game and skips the early game behind a screen of Baneling mines.
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On January 24 2013 14:31 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 05:49 Spyridon wrote:On January 22 2013 19:39 Rabiator wrote:On January 22 2013 18:56 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 14:09 Rabiator wrote:On January 21 2013 10:52 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote:
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3. Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1? I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all.... Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers. If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL. BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans). Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain. On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote:
SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech. Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game? You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early. Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them). You are making up problems. Baneling Nest 100/50 Burrow 100/100 Baneling 50/25 Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely. In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL. Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers. In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens. Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time. The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green. The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor. The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us. Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have. My post (which yours quoted and responded to) was about nothing but how HotS's changes were mainly things from BW. Your saying now you didnt compare anything to defiler, but your exact words were "Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain."... Once again, that's an exact change from BW (the point of my post, which again, you were responding to and arguing with). Not to mention you talk like Vipers are "always" at full energy, when their energy regen pales in comparison to Defilers consume, since you actually need to return to your base to full Viper energy. Sure, Viper is a character with very powerful spells, once again Defiler was one of the most powerful casters in BW (at least in ZvT where it was one of the staple units). That's one of the primary things Zerg as a race was known for in the matchup, which is why it was so upsetting that they removed it in WoL. It removed one of the primary timings and counters for Terran, which was specifically why they have to overbuff Infestors and make silly Zerg balance. Another once again... you don't seem to be listening to the fact that if you go early burrow you have to drastically change your build order from a strong economic build to an offensive one. This is the one thing people aren't understanding about the burrow change. They think Zerg players can just train it up and go on with their day, in order to get burrow early enough to stop your harrass they are either giving up Queens (which is devestating to your economy, and your defenses early game, as having 4 early game queens if primary to WoL and macro strategies) or you are giving up Lair (leaving you extremely vulnerable to both stealthers and air units, especially without the queens). That's precisely why you have to "use scans". The zerg player needs to invest a lot more than the 100/100 to train burrow early - it drastically sets back their macro. At which point Terran has to make a choice - they could spend the scans on Mules instead and try to win economically (which if you do you will dwarf Zergs economy since they did no go with a macro based BO) or you can invest in going aggressive and try to take out the Zerg with burrow. Top of ladder actually does matter a bit, you are still talking about Protoss dominance, when prior to the last 2 patches there was 13/16 Protoss players. Right now the Protoss and Terran are effectively equal, with 1 single Zerg. That speaks volume for the current balance situation. And if you really don't think Widow Mines have a place in an army... you are sadly mistaken. You are still playing WoL TvZ, if you take advantage of the new Terran units you will completely shut down WoL Zerg, forcing Zerg in to either attempting to rush Ultras (which leaves them vulnerable) or forcing Roach/Hydra/Viper (which is vulnerable to Tanks). Try taking a look at the Zerg strategy threads a bit and you may learn a thing or two about what Zerg players are having trouble with in ZvT. 1. I didnt compare the Viper to the Defiler ... they are really different, because their energy recharge abilities are different. In BW you had to eat a combat unit, but in SC2 you simply damage a building which might even follow you around (Spine Crawler). As a flying unit it can go "back to base" and recharge much easier than the Defiler anyway. The Defiler did NOT have a spell which would result in a dead enemy unit ... Protoss still had their shields, Terrans could heal and repair and Zerg would regenerate anyways. Before you argue that abduct does zero damage ... people will only use abduct if they can kill the dragged unit where it is dragged to, so it is a "kill". 2. You dont need to "drastically" change your build order ... you could simply research burrow instead of Zergling speed and go for a defensive build style that goes directly towards the mid game and skips the early game behind a screen of Baneling mines.
1) It's easier to recharge on a defiler than a viper... I don't know how you could argue otherwise. Are you really trying to say its easier to go back to base and regen health, or have a spine crawler follow a unit at all times (even off creep), than it is to have a couple Zerglings around? When you can easily have a constant line of Zerglings supporting you?
2) This is a very ignorant comment. I already explained why you have to drastically change your build order, but incase you missed it I'll explain again... You can't just take it off ling speed.
Ling speed is researched on a spawning pool, Burrow is researched on a hatchery.
In every build order optimized for macro, the hatchery is busy either building Queens or researching Lair for the entire early-mid game.
In order to research early Burrow you need to give up one or both of these things, which severely harms your economy, leaves you vulnerable to air/stealth, and leaves you behind on tech. All vulnerabilities that could be taken advantage of if you are aware of them. Look at every top build order atm, they have constant queen/lair research, and most are dependent on 4 queens for defense and creep spread. You can't do that with an early burrow build...
If you wait until a Queens for each hatchery, or Lair is finished, before researching burrow, you won't be getting burrow any earlier than you could by researching it from the Lair anyway with a much stronger economy behind you.
Geez man, if you are going to argue about something being viable, at least attempt it in game first...
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On January 24 2013 14:31 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 05:49 Spyridon wrote:On January 22 2013 19:39 Rabiator wrote:On January 22 2013 18:56 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 14:09 Rabiator wrote:On January 21 2013 10:52 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote:
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3. Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1? I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all.... Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers. If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL. BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans). Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain. On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote:
SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech. Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game? You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early. Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them). You are making up problems. Baneling Nest 100/50 Burrow 100/100 Baneling 50/25 Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely. In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL. Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers. In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens. Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time. The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green. The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor. The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us. Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have. My post (which yours quoted and responded to) was about nothing but how HotS's changes were mainly things from BW. Your saying now you didnt compare anything to defiler, but your exact words were "Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain."... Once again, that's an exact change from BW (the point of my post, which again, you were responding to and arguing with). Not to mention you talk like Vipers are "always" at full energy, when their energy regen pales in comparison to Defilers consume, since you actually need to return to your base to full Viper energy. Sure, Viper is a character with very powerful spells, once again Defiler was one of the most powerful casters in BW (at least in ZvT where it was one of the staple units). That's one of the primary things Zerg as a race was known for in the matchup, which is why it was so upsetting that they removed it in WoL. It removed one of the primary timings and counters for Terran, which was specifically why they have to overbuff Infestors and make silly Zerg balance. Another once again... you don't seem to be listening to the fact that if you go early burrow you have to drastically change your build order from a strong economic build to an offensive one. This is the one thing people aren't understanding about the burrow change. They think Zerg players can just train it up and go on with their day, in order to get burrow early enough to stop your harrass they are either giving up Queens (which is devestating to your economy, and your defenses early game, as having 4 early game queens if primary to WoL and macro strategies) or you are giving up Lair (leaving you extremely vulnerable to both stealthers and air units, especially without the queens). That's precisely why you have to "use scans". The zerg player needs to invest a lot more than the 100/100 to train burrow early - it drastically sets back their macro. At which point Terran has to make a choice - they could spend the scans on Mules instead and try to win economically (which if you do you will dwarf Zergs economy since they did no go with a macro based BO) or you can invest in going aggressive and try to take out the Zerg with burrow. Top of ladder actually does matter a bit, you are still talking about Protoss dominance, when prior to the last 2 patches there was 13/16 Protoss players. Right now the Protoss and Terran are effectively equal, with 1 single Zerg. That speaks volume for the current balance situation. And if you really don't think Widow Mines have a place in an army... you are sadly mistaken. You are still playing WoL TvZ, if you take advantage of the new Terran units you will completely shut down WoL Zerg, forcing Zerg in to either attempting to rush Ultras (which leaves them vulnerable) or forcing Roach/Hydra/Viper (which is vulnerable to Tanks). Try taking a look at the Zerg strategy threads a bit and you may learn a thing or two about what Zerg players are having trouble with in ZvT. 1. I didnt compare the Viper to the Defiler ... they are really different, because their energy recharge abilities are different. In BW you had to eat a combat unit, but in SC2 you simply damage a building which might even follow you around (Spine Crawler). As a flying unit it can go "back to base" and recharge much easier than the Defiler anyway. The Defiler did NOT have a spell which would result in a dead enemy unit ... Protoss still had their shields, Terrans could heal and repair and Zerg would regenerate anyways. Before you argue that abduct does zero damage ... people will only use abduct if they can kill the dragged unit where it is dragged to, so it is a "kill". 2. You dont need to "drastically" change your build order ... you could simply research burrow instead of Zergling speed and go for a defensive build style that goes directly towards the mid game and skips the early game behind a screen of Baneling mines.
your whole post shows your clear lack of understanding of the timing in TvZ
Yes Terran tech is more expensive, but that is also why you don't move out early until the timing is right. Similarly Zerg do a defense against the timing.
If you do standard 2 base lair zerg, you can do burrow baneling just around the time when terran do their 2 base push.
terran do not need to upgrade to lair, which is essential for the zerg to have a good mid game and keep up with upgrades.
By grabbing a baneling nest, early burrow, you are severally delaying your lair/upgrades/speed.
That's like doing a one base terran build but playing it defensively. It doesn't make sense.
It's really not as simple as you think.
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At Scorescreen, there is a "supply blocked" and you can see if you have improved between that game and your average.
Is supply blocked with or without 200/200? 200/200 makes no sense for me.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 26 2013 20:48 Dingodile wrote:
At Scorescreen, there is a "supply blocked" and you can see if you have improved between that game and your average.
Is supply blocked with or without 200/200? 200/200 makes no sense for me.
Probably time how long you're staying at maxed supply without free one
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EPT
