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Same for me i started random, but T mechanics are so diff from Pand Z that i keep with Z and TvT is so boring, unless ZvZ or PvP. I mostly win all ZvP I know so well P timing and what are so anoying  Z is also funny to play and more macro orriented.
Moreover HOTS the swarm ^^ i understand why.
The only thing is Z unit are cheap don t micro too much ur lings it is 25mineral unit not 100 as zelot anymore.
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I am still waiting for some revolutionary change to the Corruptor. Such booring unit at the moment =(
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United States7166 Posts
On January 20 2013 07:16 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote:
stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore Infestors have 12 range fungal in HOTS. Hope I didn't just blow your mind too much!
12? Isn't it 10? .. Why am I not surprised that avilo's the poster
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I'm not really good enough to comment on balance, but I've had some great fun in beta with burrow shenanigans. Roach+burrow allins are really fun in ZvZ, and I've had some roach play success against terran too, burrowing a group of lings near his base to scout him moving out and then unburrowing to pick off reinforcements/to counter attack.
Also had a TvT with me starting gas first reactor reapers, building 6 and then swapping to bio + widow mines. It went great and even managed to extract some rage at me for being a "cheeser"
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On January 21 2013 22:10 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 07:16 avilo wrote:On January 20 2013 07:07 riadhadzi15 wrote:
stop fucking nerfing infestors you fucking faggots might as well just take them out of the game if you nerf them this bad. They are so useless now just fucking remove them i'm sick of this shit having to make infestor pit to go hive when you don't even need infestors anymore Infestors have 12 range fungal in HOTS. Hope I didn't just blow your mind too much! 12? Isn't it 10? .. Why am I not surprised that avilo's the poster
Also because it's Avilo, one can surmise that he means range + radius of fungal.
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On January 21 2013 15:10 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 14:40 aksfjh wrote:On January 21 2013 14:09 Rabiator wrote:On January 21 2013 10:52 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote:
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3. Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1? I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all.... Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers. If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL. BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans). Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain. On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote:
SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech. Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game? You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early. Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them). You are making up problems. Baneling Nest 100/50 Burrow 100/100 Baneling 50/25 Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely. Seems like quite a huge investment compared to what they have to do now to drone up hard, make 4-6 queens. Those 4-6 Queens cant shut down harrassment as hard as Banelings can ... in ZvZ ... and burrow is really useful to really prevent harrassment on its own by forcing scans from Terrans. So burrow on its own really works against every kind of harrassment without the Banelings (which are most likely useful only against other Zerg or Terrans which you know will not go Banshee harrassing you). Early burrow has the potential of being just as bad as Queen range increase to shut down the harrassment necessary to keep Zerg economy in check.
not at all really.. early burrow is expensive, still takes quite a while to research and burrowed banes or lings don't do much at all. Burrowed banelings are in no way comparable to lurkers because they require far more investment and they only trade while lurkers can demolish groups without loss. Early banelings need to have rediculously good placement to even kill a group of marines and terran can have map control with hellions before you have burrow completed easily..
On defense burrowing lings to suprise surround something is good but that alone hardly makes the upgrade a must, you need to be really lucky to use it.
Burrow in ZvT is more likely to become something gimmicky as hallucination was, something that's used quite rarely but should be taken into account. For ZvP it's probably quite useful but that's a good thing as zerg could use a little extra defense to stop the all-in nature of the matchup it often still is.
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On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote:
Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z.
Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz:
"We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of."
"Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base."
"Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz:
We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz.
"Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it."
"Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz:
"Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro.
BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is..
I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
stop this rediculous whining...
HotS voids are far stronger than WoL voids because fungal was nerfed a fair bit and their attack speed increased.. New ability is also better than previous charge up because you have extra DPS right at the start of the battle instead of at the end.. Battles rarely last much longer than the duration anyway and new void DPS is better. A tiny supply nerf to make the lasertoss composition a bit less supply effective lategame is only logical since that combination is quite strong again with an easy counter to broodlords available..
All other arguments except the time warp one are even more rediculous whining. Timewarp on the oracle was sort of useless though as you'd rather use the energy on just attacking most of the time. On the MsC you have something else to do with your energy but it's still a bland crappy spell.
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On January 22 2013 00:28 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote:
Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z.
Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz:
"We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of."
"Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base."
"Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz:
We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz.
"Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it."
"Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz:
"Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro.
BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is..
I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
stop this rediculous whining... HotS voids are far stronger than WoL voids because fungal was nerfed a fair bit and their attack speed increased.. New ability is also better than previous charge up because you have extra DPS right at the start of the battle instead of at the end.. Battles rarely last much longer than the duration anyway and new void DPS is better. A tiny supply nerf to make the lasertoss composition a bit less supply effective lategame is only logical since that combination is quite strong again with an easy counter to broodlords available.. All other arguments except the time warp one are even more rediculous whining. Timewarp on the oracle was sort of useless though as you'd rather use the energy on just attacking most of the time. On the MsC you have something else to do with your energy but it's still a bland crappy spell.
Your whole argument of "Void Rays in HotS are far stronger" really shows the stupidity of the whole design / balancing concept of Blizzard ... and consequently your equal lack of understanding. Units in an expansion should never be "more powerful", because you would have to start all over again with the whole balancing for every unit. They arent doing that, but since they are fiddling around with quite a few "basic stuff" which was already in WoL the whole dilemma is easy to see ... if you want to see it. They should have fixed WoL balance and made those units fun before adding in new stuff in HotS ... but they didnt.
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On January 22 2013 01:44 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 00:28 Markwerf wrote:On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote:
Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z.
Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz:
"We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of."
"Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base."
"Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz:
We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz.
"Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it."
"Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz:
"Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro.
BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is..
I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
stop this rediculous whining... HotS voids are far stronger than WoL voids because fungal was nerfed a fair bit and their attack speed increased.. New ability is also better than previous charge up because you have extra DPS right at the start of the battle instead of at the end.. Battles rarely last much longer than the duration anyway and new void DPS is better. A tiny supply nerf to make the lasertoss composition a bit less supply effective lategame is only logical since that combination is quite strong again with an easy counter to broodlords available.. All other arguments except the time warp one are even more rediculous whining. Timewarp on the oracle was sort of useless though as you'd rather use the energy on just attacking most of the time. On the MsC you have something else to do with your energy but it's still a bland crappy spell. Your whole argument of "Void Rays in HotS are far stronger" really shows the stupidity of the whole design / balancing concept of Blizzard ... and consequently your equal lack of understanding. Units in an expansion should never be "more powerful", because you would have to start all over again with the whole balancing for every unit. They arent doing that, but since they are fiddling around with quite a few "basic stuff" which was already in WoL the whole dilemma is easy to see ... if you want to see it. They should have fixed WoL balance and made those units fun before adding in new stuff in HotS ... but they didnt.
Stronger is not the term that I would, but more versatile and robust. The old voidray had a very limited and shrinking role in WoL metagame. I can't remember the last time I ever build one is basic game. The updated voidray has a more robust role in a lot of the match ups and this makes the unit better as a whole. This is good, because the more options people have, the more exciting the games will be.
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On January 22 2013 01:44 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 00:28 Markwerf wrote:On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote:
Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z.
Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz:
"We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of."
"Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base."
"Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz:
We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz.
"Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it."
"Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz:
"Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro.
BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is..
I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
stop this rediculous whining... HotS voids are far stronger than WoL voids because fungal was nerfed a fair bit and their attack speed increased.. New ability is also better than previous charge up because you have extra DPS right at the start of the battle instead of at the end.. Battles rarely last much longer than the duration anyway and new void DPS is better. A tiny supply nerf to make the lasertoss composition a bit less supply effective lategame is only logical since that combination is quite strong again with an easy counter to broodlords available.. All other arguments except the time warp one are even more rediculous whining. Timewarp on the oracle was sort of useless though as you'd rather use the energy on just attacking most of the time. On the MsC you have something else to do with your energy but it's still a bland crappy spell. Your whole argument of "Void Rays in HotS are far stronger" really shows the stupidity of the whole design / balancing concept of Blizzard ... and consequently your equal lack of understanding. Units in an expansion should never be "more powerful", because you would have to start all over again with the whole balancing for every unit. They arent doing that, but since they are fiddling around with quite a few "basic stuff" which was already in WoL the whole dilemma is easy to see ... if you want to see it. They should have fixed WoL balance and made those units fun before adding in new stuff in HotS ... but they didnt.
What are you on about? New units means new strategies, which in turn means that everything needs to be rebelanced. What in the world makes you think a unit can't be buffed/nerfed a bit to fit the new strategies and playstyles that they want to bring out in hots?
I also love your use of "lack of understanding". This means you have a doctor degree in game design yes?
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On January 22 2013 02:38 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 01:44 Rabiator wrote:On January 22 2013 00:28 Markwerf wrote:On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote:
Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z.
Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz:
"We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of."
"Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base."
"Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz:
We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz.
"Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it."
"Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz:
"Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro.
BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is..
I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
stop this rediculous whining... HotS voids are far stronger than WoL voids because fungal was nerfed a fair bit and their attack speed increased.. New ability is also better than previous charge up because you have extra DPS right at the start of the battle instead of at the end.. Battles rarely last much longer than the duration anyway and new void DPS is better. A tiny supply nerf to make the lasertoss composition a bit less supply effective lategame is only logical since that combination is quite strong again with an easy counter to broodlords available.. All other arguments except the time warp one are even more rediculous whining. Timewarp on the oracle was sort of useless though as you'd rather use the energy on just attacking most of the time. On the MsC you have something else to do with your energy but it's still a bland crappy spell. Your whole argument of "Void Rays in HotS are far stronger" really shows the stupidity of the whole design / balancing concept of Blizzard ... and consequently your equal lack of understanding. Units in an expansion should never be "more powerful", because you would have to start all over again with the whole balancing for every unit. They arent doing that, but since they are fiddling around with quite a few "basic stuff" which was already in WoL the whole dilemma is easy to see ... if you want to see it. They should have fixed WoL balance and made those units fun before adding in new stuff in HotS ... but they didnt. I also love your use of "lack of understanding". This means you have a degree in game design yes?
That is the super passive agressive way of insulting your intelligence, while still keeping on topic. Notice how he calls Blizzard's ideas stupid earlier, but only says you have an equal lack of understanding. It also avoids the pesky problem of having to back up his argument. And then you will notice how he simply moves on and simply assumes that everything he stated before is fact, with not evidence what so ever.
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I hate how blizzard do things.
Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix.
Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes.
Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore.
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On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote:
I hate how blizzard do things.
Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix.
Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes.
Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore.
I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit.
The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough.
But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead?
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On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote:
I hate how blizzard do things.
Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix.
Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes.
Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore.
Void rays dps is already kind of bad vs light for its cost and only with the prismatic alignment, it comes close to 1*Immortal or 2*marauder dps vs armored, for a short amount of time. Guess how much supply 1immortal or 2marauders cost?
People did not complain about void rays being too good early on. They said that lategame mass void ray was probably too good. Supply is THE fix for that. Even more, now void rays cost per supply is: 62.5/37.5, which is pretty standard for a "low tier" air unit.
Your comparison fits much better to all the "just remove unit/ability X and replace it with unit/ability Y" criers, who would much rather see every flat tire removed instantly, instead of having to work for a fix.
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On January 22 2013 03:09 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote:
I hate how blizzard do things.
Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix.
Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes.
Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore. I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit. The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough. But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead?
The Reaper is a "gimmicky" unit which has only its speed and the jump ability to go for it. This is far less user friendly / useful than Blink of Stalkers in a battle. Coupled with their pitiful range and tiny damage they really become rather useless, but thats not the true part which limits the unit. What really prevents them from ever being what Dustin and his cronies dreamed they should do is the core "massive numbers of units" design for SC2. Against huge armies you simply cant use this kind of cutesy gimmicky unit and their combat stats - which are appropriate for their speed and cliffjumping maneuverability - because you need true combat power once the engagement begins. Since the game is designed to be all about "massive engagements" from the mid game onwards they become totally useless there and then ...
They could only make the Reaper useful later on if they abolished their stupid concept of mass battles, but that is really really REALLY unlikely. So, Dustin, just give up on this unit and work on mech instead ...
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I'm really enjoying some Roach rush burrow timing play in Z v Z. Anything that allows micro is good with me.
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On January 22 2013 03:38 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 03:09 Excludos wrote:On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote:
I hate how blizzard do things.
Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix.
Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes.
Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore. I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit. The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough. But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead? The Reaper is a "gimmicky" unit which has only its speed and the jump ability to go for it. This is far less user friendly / useful than Blink of Stalkers in a battle. Coupled with their pitiful range and tiny damage they really become rather useless, but thats not the true part which limits the unit. What really prevents them from ever being what Dustin and his cronies dreamed they should do is the core "massive numbers of units" design for SC2. Against huge armies you simply cant use this kind of cutesy gimmicky unit and their combat stats - which are appropriate for their speed and cliffjumping maneuverability - because you need true combat power once the engagement begins. Since the game is designed to be all about "massive engagements" from the mid game onwards they become totally useless there and then ... They could only make the Reaper useful later on if they abolished their stupid concept of mass battles, but that is really really REALLY unlikely. So, Dustin, just give up on this unit and work on mech instead ...
Any unit can always be salvaged. Giving the reaper a small aoe for instance would do wonders to it, and make them viable with bio vs zerg all the way to lategame. Unfortunately then they would fill much of the same role as the hellion, and thats not what they want.
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On January 22 2013 04:02 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 03:38 Rabiator wrote:On January 22 2013 03:09 Excludos wrote:On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote:
I hate how blizzard do things.
Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix.
Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes.
Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore. I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit. The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough. But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead? The Reaper is a "gimmicky" unit which has only its speed and the jump ability to go for it. This is far less user friendly / useful than Blink of Stalkers in a battle. Coupled with their pitiful range and tiny damage they really become rather useless, but thats not the true part which limits the unit. What really prevents them from ever being what Dustin and his cronies dreamed they should do is the core "massive numbers of units" design for SC2. Against huge armies you simply cant use this kind of cutesy gimmicky unit and their combat stats - which are appropriate for their speed and cliffjumping maneuverability - because you need true combat power once the engagement begins. Since the game is designed to be all about "massive engagements" from the mid game onwards they become totally useless there and then ... They could only make the Reaper useful later on if they abolished their stupid concept of mass battles, but that is really really REALLY unlikely. So, Dustin, just give up on this unit and work on mech instead ... Any unit can always be salvaged. Giving the reaper a small aoe for instance would do wonders to it, and make them viable with bio vs zerg all the way to lategame. Unfortunately then they would fill much of the same role as the hellion, and thats not what they want.
Also, more scouting early game scouting is good for all the races. More information means that players can feel more confident about being aggressive and not have to play as defensively. I have always felt that lack of constant, early game information gathering is the reason why the current metagame is so defensive. If the reaper fills this role, more power to it. If they can find a way to give it a neat late game upgrade that gives small groups of them something useful to do, also awesome.
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On January 22 2013 04:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 04:02 Excludos wrote:On January 22 2013 03:38 Rabiator wrote:On January 22 2013 03:09 Excludos wrote:On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote:
I hate how blizzard do things.
Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix.
Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes.
Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore. I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit. The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough. But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead? The Reaper is a "gimmicky" unit which has only its speed and the jump ability to go for it. This is far less user friendly / useful than Blink of Stalkers in a battle. Coupled with their pitiful range and tiny damage they really become rather useless, but thats not the true part which limits the unit. What really prevents them from ever being what Dustin and his cronies dreamed they should do is the core "massive numbers of units" design for SC2. Against huge armies you simply cant use this kind of cutesy gimmicky unit and their combat stats - which are appropriate for their speed and cliffjumping maneuverability - because you need true combat power once the engagement begins. Since the game is designed to be all about "massive engagements" from the mid game onwards they become totally useless there and then ... They could only make the Reaper useful later on if they abolished their stupid concept of mass battles, but that is really really REALLY unlikely. So, Dustin, just give up on this unit and work on mech instead ... Any unit can always be salvaged. Giving the reaper a small aoe for instance would do wonders to it, and make them viable with bio vs zerg all the way to lategame. Unfortunately then they would fill much of the same role as the hellion, and thats not what they want. Also, more scouting early game scouting is good for all the races. More information means that players can feel more confident about being aggressive and not have to play as defensively. I have always felt that lack of constant, early game information gathering is the reason why the current metagame is so defensive. If the reaper fills this role, more power to it. If they can find a way to give it a neat late game upgrade that gives small groups of them something useful to do, also awesome.
Thats an interesting theory. Do you think the game would be more aggressive if both parties didn't have any fog of war? Or is there a limit to what you should be able to see untill no one bothers to do anything because they'd know exactly what to do anyways? I know it sc2 wont be the same without fow. But just wondering if whetever other or newer games would benefit from it.
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On January 22 2013 04:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 04:02 Excludos wrote:On January 22 2013 03:38 Rabiator wrote:On January 22 2013 03:09 Excludos wrote:On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote:
I hate how blizzard do things.
Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix.
Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes.
Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore. I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit. The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough. But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead? The Reaper is a "gimmicky" unit which has only its speed and the jump ability to go for it. This is far less user friendly / useful than Blink of Stalkers in a battle. Coupled with their pitiful range and tiny damage they really become rather useless, but thats not the true part which limits the unit. What really prevents them from ever being what Dustin and his cronies dreamed they should do is the core "massive numbers of units" design for SC2. Against huge armies you simply cant use this kind of cutesy gimmicky unit and their combat stats - which are appropriate for their speed and cliffjumping maneuverability - because you need true combat power once the engagement begins. Since the game is designed to be all about "massive engagements" from the mid game onwards they become totally useless there and then ... They could only make the Reaper useful later on if they abolished their stupid concept of mass battles, but that is really really REALLY unlikely. So, Dustin, just give up on this unit and work on mech instead ... Any unit can always be salvaged. Giving the reaper a small aoe for instance would do wonders to it, and make them viable with bio vs zerg all the way to lategame. Unfortunately then they would fill much of the same role as the hellion, and thats not what they want. Also, more scouting early game scouting is good for all the races. More information means that players can feel more confident about being aggressive and not have to play as defensively. I have always felt that lack of constant, early game information gathering is the reason why the current metagame is so defensive. If the reaper fills this role, more power to it. If they can find a way to give it a neat late game upgrade that gives small groups of them something useful to do, also awesome.
Not sure. Sometimes I feel like there should be better ways to look into an opponents base. But I also dislike the other side, like the complete information zerg gets (needs? not so sure about that) vs Protoss early on. Or mass creep spread/mass scans in the late- and endgame, when you have full information on an opponents movement, which is just too much, as he can never trick you.
I like the direction the reaper is taking without the techlab. It makes getting them very easy, but you still need gas, so it cant be a supereco/superscout build. I hope they do something in that regards with Zerg. It's a bit too much you can do off of just minerals early on to be good (=dynamic/agressive/punishing) imo. But maybe the MSC and the widow mine fix that already.
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EPT
