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burrow and voidray change are fine.
Burrow change might affect zerg early game a little bit but probably won't do anything. Voidray change is good too to make the laser toss combination a bit weaker later on against zerg. Pretty much removes voidray strats from PvP though..
Reaper change is horrible once again.. Without bonus to light this unit is rediculous, it;s still terrible and virtually pointless to make except for scouting purposes.. Just revert it to it's old stats really but remove the ability to see on cliffs and slightly nerf it's damage against light...
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On January 21 2013 00:13 Markwerf wrote:
burrow and voidray change are fine.
Burrow change might affect zerg early game a little bit but probably won't do anything. Voidray change is good too to make the laser toss combination a bit weaker later on against zerg. Pretty much removes voidray strats from PvP though..
Reaper change is horrible once again.. Without bonus to light this unit is rediculous, it;s still terrible and virtually pointless to make except for scouting purposes.. Just revert it to it's old stats really but remove the ability to see on cliffs and slightly nerf it's damage against light...
I don't think that they need damage vs. light, I would like to see them doing like 2x6 damage instead of 2x4. They still won't be too strong, and will be able to 3-shot lings and 4-shot Workers and Marines, but that is it. And of course, get them back on 50 hp. I also understand why they did buff their hp, but I don't think that it is good direction.
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Cannot believe how badly they messed up the reaper once again.
Blizzard incompetence to balance Starcraft II has now reached an undeniable status.
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
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so wait, does the early burrow mean that you can block early expansions with lings now?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 21 2013 01:19 Sqwrl. wrote:
so wait, does the early burrow mean that you can block early expansions with lings now?
Widow Mines already can do that without any burrow upgrades. Burrow research isn't free and while you're researching it, you don't make queens, delay your Lair, etc etc
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On January 21 2013 01:19 Sqwrl. wrote:
so wait, does the early burrow mean that you can block early expansions with lings now?
Yeah. but if you're taking your natural late enough for it to be blocked by a ling, or not have any sort of detection before taking your third, you're awful at sc and deserve to lose.
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On January 21 2013 01:20 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 01:19 Sqwrl. wrote:
so wait, does the early burrow mean that you can block early expansions with lings now? Widow Mines already can do that without any burrow upgrades. Burrow research isn't free and while you're researching it, you don't make queens, delay your Lair, etc etc
its not free, and it does delay other things but i've noticed its easier to transtition from all ins into normal builds with the new burrow
say i do a raoch ling bane all in, then start lair, 1/1 and drone my 3rd up
i dont want to make roaches yet, because i'm in no real threat yet except to banshees, but i have 100 idle gas
> burrow
burrow finishes then and im able to burrow things all game to save/hide them
just something intersting to spend my gas on that can help me later instead of RIGHT NOW or WAIT UNTIL LAIR
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Really wish they would do something to Hydras or Corruptors... Zerg's AA is so pitiful now with the Infestor nerf.
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On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote:
Blizzard incompetence to balance Starcraft II has now reached an undeniable status.
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3.
Yeah this is exactly what I think. Offensively, it won't do much, but defensively it makes Zerg even better. But there will be a lot of randomness... so you see a big Bio all-in coming and burrow Banes, but if the Terran scans and cleans them out or doesn't walk over them you've just wasted all those Banes and are even less likely to hold, but if the Terran walks over them you win?
That isn't skill, it is luck.
And does Zerg even need this? Are there any pressing early game plays that Zerg can't hold and that burrow would help them with? Pretty sure there isn't. Instead of focusing on balancing the game and making it more fun, they are just changing things for the sake of it it seems.
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On January 21 2013 03:49 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote:
Blizzard incompetence to balance Starcraft II has now reached an undeniable status.
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3. Yeah this is exactly what I think. Offensively, it won't do much, but defensively it makes Zerg even better. But there will be a lot of randomness... so you see a big Bio all-in coming and burrow Banes, but if the Terran scans and cleans them out or doesn't walk over them you've just wasted all those Banes and are even less likely to hold, but if the Terran walks over them you win? That isn't skill, it is luck. And does Zerg even need this? Are there any pressing early game plays that Zerg can't hold and that burrow would help them with? Pretty sure there isn't. Instead of focusing on balancing the game and making it more fun, they are just changing things for the sake of it it seems.
With Terran having widow mines and Toss having the range 13 nexus cannon, it only seems fair to give zerg some more defensive abilities.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On January 21 2013 04:34 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 03:49 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote:
Blizzard incompetence to balance Starcraft II has now reached an undeniable status.
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3. Yeah this is exactly what I think. Offensively, it won't do much, but defensively it makes Zerg even better. But there will be a lot of randomness... so you see a big Bio all-in coming and burrow Banes, but if the Terran scans and cleans them out or doesn't walk over them you've just wasted all those Banes and are even less likely to hold, but if the Terran walks over them you win? That isn't skill, it is luck. And does Zerg even need this? Are there any pressing early game plays that Zerg can't hold and that burrow would help them with? Pretty sure there isn't. Instead of focusing on balancing the game and making it more fun, they are just changing things for the sake of it it seems. With Terran having widow mines and Toss having the range 13 nexus cannon, it only seems fair to give zerg some more defensive abilities.
Your comment doesn't make sense. They make changes to the game to improve it, by looking at what they believe could be improved. It's not a tit-for-tat process.
That's like saying "Protoss got a 15 range unit, and Zerg got an even greater range unit, it would only be FAIR if Terran now got a higher ranged unit".
That's just not a logical way of going about things.
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I've said several times in this thread and others. The burrow change hardly affects anything. I want my lair it is way more valuable than burrow. Except for a few all ins that will be easy to stop with proper scouting the burrow change hardly matters.
Stop theorycrafting and actually beta test. How many people have actually lost to some unstoppable Zerg burrow play?
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On January 21 2013 05:12 FLuE wrote:
I've said several times in this thread and others. The burrow change hardly affects anything. I want my lair it is way more valuable than burrow. Except for a few all ins that will be easy to stop with proper scouting the burrow change hardly matters.
Stop theorycrafting and actually beta test. How many people have actually lost to some unstoppable Zerg burrow play?
Exactly, i would much rather a zerg delay his lair tech with this dumb upgrade than pull my hair out over a zergling burrowed at my third.
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On January 21 2013 04:34 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 03:49 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote:
Blizzard incompetence to balance Starcraft II has now reached an undeniable status.
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3. Yeah this is exactly what I think. Offensively, it won't do much, but defensively it makes Zerg even better. But there will be a lot of randomness... so you see a big Bio all-in coming and burrow Banes, but if the Terran scans and cleans them out or doesn't walk over them you've just wasted all those Banes and are even less likely to hold, but if the Terran walks over them you win? That isn't skill, it is luck. And does Zerg even need this? Are there any pressing early game plays that Zerg can't hold and that burrow would help them with? Pretty sure there isn't. Instead of focusing on balancing the game and making it more fun, they are just changing things for the sake of it it seems. With Terran having widow mines and Toss having the range 13 nexus cannon, it only seems fair to give zerg some more defensive abilities.
The fact of the matter is that none of these things should be in the game to begin with.
The response to bad game design is not tacked on patches.
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really wonder when they are going to fix medivac's there speed boost is the dumbest shit in the world... oh you have cannons/turrets/spores... dsnt matter looooool.... oh you came back to your base with blink stalkers or stimmed marrines... loooool fly away loose nothing...
its so stupid it makes no sense
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On January 21 2013 03:37 sagefreke wrote:
Really wish they would do something to Hydras or Corruptors... Zerg's AA is so pitiful now with the Infestor nerf.
AA is bad, but moreover zerg lair tech is now even worse.
I would like to see cracklings for lair tech. This upgrade is not that useful now. Lings only block ultras later on.
Cracklings with lair tech would add some more mid game timings, not only rushing to hive options.
But still it doesn't fix AA problem...
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Harmless changes. Was hoping for more.
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On January 20 2013 12:37 bankobauss wrote:
instead of nerfing fungal i have a better idea
im sure a majority of the reason fungal was nerfed (30 damage instead of 40) was because of its power vs vikings. david kim doesnt admit that, but i bet thats a big reason for it as david kim plays random and any terran player must know how incredibly ridiculous it is to have thousands of resources die in seconds to fungal, and vikings automatically clump in some way in every real game scenario when fighting broodlords/corrupters
Hmm... If it is because of Vikings, they could have easily given Viking damage resistance against Fungals (or fungals do not do bonus to armor against air units).
It's really easy to make the editor have this.
For example - In the case of Fungal having +10 against armor (to ground only) and not to air, just have two "damage" effects, and make a validator that checks if the target is a ground unit ("required" ground), and the other make a check that the other is "required air" with "exclude ground" (this prevents colossus from taking bonus damage from fungal).
There you go. If they don't want to do that, they could give Vikings a behavior that reduces damage against Fungal (make it a passive called Fungal Shield... Yes it's weird but if they really want to make the game good, they shouldn't worry about weird stuff like Vikings have passive resistance to some of Fungal's damage).
Hopefully the fungal against +armor nerf isn't due to just one unit (the viking) because they certainly have the capabilities to nerf/buff damage for a single unit or types of units (ground or flying for example).
Edit - This is a general comment about changes in SC2 rather than "Fungal nerfed because of Viking?", I've seen the way they made Void Rays do bonus damage to massive and I've seen the way Blizzard made PDD feedbackable and the way Blizzard uses the editor isn't actually efficient >.>.
Here are Blizzard's error with Void Rays and PDD in the editor (not being efficient and causing it to be prone to "Spaghetti coding" or since this is the data editor, Spaghetti data editor issues):
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Point Defense Drone. Back in one of the early patches, PDD was considered a unit, not a structure.
They changed it to a structure. However, they wanted Feedback to still against PDD (and Feedback doesn't work on structures, normally), so here's what they did:
*They made it so Feedback targets everything but excludes Orbital Commands and Nexus....
Okay, to anyone that doesn't know what this means. Is that, if they (or anyone using the editor) adds a new structure with energy, feedback can target that structure. The reason is, they set Feedback to work on any target "except" OCs and Nexus, which is silly and prone to "spaghetti code". (I say Spaghetti code because these types of inefficient things piled up will end up being similar to Spaghetti Code, a small change and something breaks something else, you don't know what's causing it.)
Here's the efficient and "spaghetti code-proof" way of making Feedback work against PDD WITHOUT affecting new structures with energy.
Make Feedback target anything like normal.
For Feedback (Set) (Effect), make a Validator that has this:
*1Target units (exclude structures) with energy.
*2 Target Point Defense Drone (you can set a validator for a specific unit, it's under "unit type" I think).
*3 Validator Set ("OR") If one of the conditions above is true (#1 "OR" #2), then they ability can be cast.
Set Validator #3 to Feedback Effect.
Now Feedback can target Point Defense Drones, and units with energy WITHOUT issues if spaghetti code-like problems later. It's efficient, it works. It's not prone to problems with future new structures with energy too.
So instead of having Feedback target all units except Orbital Commands and Nexus (which again, are prone to problems with new structures with energy), my method makes it so that feedback targets all non-structure units "or" Point Defense Drone, like Feedback is intended to work.
(I use this in my series of custom maps which I shall nickname, Imbalanced Starcraft. I added Dark Pylons which have energy and can work similar to Shield Batteries for Protoss units, except for energy. Also they can restore shields too, passively, but Protoss units or allies can right click on the pylon to transfer energy from the Dark Pylon to the unit with energy... When I added the Dark Pylon, I found the computer Protoss players were feedbacking my Dark Pylons. The problem is because of Blizzard's inefficient use of the data editor >.<.)
Now we're done with PDD, here's Blizzard's ineffecient and spaghetti code prone method of making Void Rays deal bonus damage to massive (in WoL).
2. Instead of giving Void Rays a behavior that targets massive, and does 20% more damage to them... Blizzard gave a passive behavior to massive units that made them take 20% more damage from Void Rays...
Again, Blizzard >.<. This means that if you add any new massive units, you have to manually give them the passive behavior that makes them take 20% more damage from Void Rays. If Blizzard instead gave a Behavior (or made a new set of effects) that made Void Rays do 20% more damage to massive only, then the problem wouldn't exist.
I won't explain the problem more (because it's similar to the Point Defense Drone issue above, it's inefficient and prone to errors from new units that they or other map makers add).
So yeah, Blizzard is bad at using the editor IMO. They're not that bad though but I think they could be a bit more creative and less error prone with how they use it . I'm not sure if certain balance changes are made in the mind that they can do anything or rather they're limited by unit types. If it's the latter, then that's bad. If it's the former, they can balance individual units against other individual units fairly easily.
For example, if Reapers were a problem in TvT, they could make it so Reapers do not do bonus +light damage to Terran units but do bonus to Zerg and Protoss units only.
Or if Mutalisks were a problem in ZvZ, they could make it so Infestors dealt bonus damage against Mutalisks (only) or even make it so Infested Terrans do bonus to Mutalisks, or whatever.
(Again, all of it is possible in the editor, and fairly easy to do actually. See my examples in the spoilers on the power of the SC2 editor!)
These are just examples of specific changes that may cause less "chain reaction" issues in other matchups or against other units.
Void Ray
We haven't seen many players microing against the Void Ray's Prismatic Alignment ability, even among the highest rated players in the HotS Beta. In order to encourage more precise micro against this ability, we've decided to display a timer on the Void Ray for the duration of the effect. We're hoping to see players pull their units back against Prismatic Alignment, and re-engage once the ability is on cooldown.
We also felt that Void Rays were too strong in the late game for their supply cost, so we decided to increase this requirement by 1.
There's another thread on this but the reason is that Void Rays have +2 extended range when they attack a unit (so if they attack a unit at 6 range, the unit has to move farther than 8 range before Void Rays stop attacking).
Also, the animation clearly shows when the Void Ray is charged or when not (it's when the Void Rays have a giant beam instead of a small beam, also when Void Rays have 3 beams lit up the ship), so it's not an issue of whether players know Void Rays are charged or not (though the timer does let players know how long the Charge lasts).
Anyway as someone noted, they could make it so Void Rays do not have a +2 range buffer (instead it could be +0.5 or something).
Additionally, it is possible to make it so the Void Ray deals less damage the farther away a unit is (they could make it so the beams have different colors too, to indicate this).
For example 5 range and less, the Void Ray does 100% damage. from 5 range to 6 range, Void Rays do 75% damage. From 6-8 range (extended range), Void Rays do 50% damage.
(It's possible to do in the editor. It involves having multiple effects for damage "in 1 set effect" with validators that compare the unit distances between caster and target.)
TBH though... I feel Void Rays should return to their old state except reduce the charge time from 6 attacks to 3 (and give Void Rays 3 levels of the beam like in the beta instead of just 2). Also increase the hold charge duration from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
This means that the player using Void Rays have to micro their Void Rays to prevent over attacking one unit. Since it's spread out on 3 levels, with 3 attacks to charge, instead of 2 levels with 6 attacks to charge, it'll be much easier.
Right now Void Rays have become yet another a-move unit... and just because the enemy has to "micro" against them (also known as everything in SC2, just move away) doesn't make them interesting. (Plus, the old Void Rays, opponents had to micro against them too, like move away the unit being attacked so the VR doesn't get a charged.)
In terms of the original VR fix, I felt like it Blizzard focused too much on making the VR useful (its interesting mechanic was removed at the cost). I think it should be revisited again. (It's the beta, it doesn't take that long to implement fancy mechanics like VRs doing less damage the farther away the unit is or rebalancing the old Void Ray's charge system. I could do it in 5-10 mins in the editor). Now, "gimmick mechanics" shouldn't be all over the place but currently, I feel there aren't enough interesting unit mechanics (compared to BW). Void Rays had potential with their old charge up mechanic IMO.
They should add back the Reaver, one of the best designed (in terms of gameplay) unit in any RTS and call it a day. This isn't me being BW elitist, I like the Swarm Host over the Lurker. A lot of new units replaced the old units in terms of design or concept. Banelings are similar to Scourges, except on the ground. Lurkers, while a staple and one of reasons BW made SC1 good, is not that unique of a unit and is just a typical line splash damage unit. However... nothing in SC2 is like the Reaver. It needs to come back.
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On January 21 2013 03:25 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 01:20 Existor wrote:On January 21 2013 01:19 Sqwrl. wrote:
so wait, does the early burrow mean that you can block early expansions with lings now? Widow Mines already can do that without any burrow upgrades. Burrow research isn't free and while you're researching it, you don't make queens, delay your Lair, etc etc its not free, and it does delay other things but i've noticed its easier to transtition from all ins into normal builds with the new burrow say i do a raoch ling bane all in, then start lair, 1/1 and drone my 3rd up i dont want to make roaches yet, because i'm in no real threat yet except to banshees, but i have 100 idle gas > burrow burrow finishes then and im able to burrow things all game to save/hide them just something intersting to spend my gas on that can help me later instead of RIGHT NOW or WAIT UNTIL LAIR
well having spare gas without a goal you're saving it up for is usually just bad macro.
Getting burrow while you go to lair will probably by quite useful just to shave some seconds of it without having to go needlessly quick lair.
It's fairly useful on defense against protoss just to save units from zealot pressure, oracles or to defend against 7 gates etc. Using a ling burrowed at the third and near the forge is also quite useful for keeping an eye on what they're doing or delaying an expansion.
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Does anyone else feel like the direction the game has headed in the past few patches have made the game less enjoyable?
It seems like they are removing most early game pressure and just encouraging turtle macrofests imo, while just tweaking gimmicky things here and there (particularly the reaper).
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