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PvZ early-to-mid game plays exactly the same as WOL. Protoss can still do 3-immortal push or pheonix-colossus push and kill Zerg before BL. Zerg needs to have something that can defend those pushes more reliably, since in late-game Protoss now has tempest and skytoss to deal with BL/Infestor. Protoss doesn't need to kill Zerg before BL now but they still can. This will lead to balance problems.
TvP Mech is still not viable. They should buff tank damage and they don't need to worry about TvZ because of how powerful viper is in terms of shutting down mech.'
FF is still broken as fuck. If they don't want to change warpgate, then fucking nerf FF and buff Zealot and Stalker a bit.
Oracle is now the worst-designed unit ever. Two vision spells and a voidray-like weapon? Just how can you make something that is so overlapped and redundant. Either give oracle bw irradiation or bring time-warp back, and combine revelation and evision into one spell.
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On January 22 2013 04:16 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 04:10 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2013 04:02 Excludos wrote:On January 22 2013 03:38 Rabiator wrote:On January 22 2013 03:09 Excludos wrote:On January 22 2013 02:57 baba1 wrote:
I hate how blizzard do things.
Instead of actually fixing the problems, they change some random numbers and call it a fix.
Void rays are too good? instead of adjusting the damage, they make em 4 supply... And they use that mentality for almost all changes.
Reapers are shitty unit overall ? Only purpose is mostly scouting? Let's buff their hp by 10 ! AMAZING NO?
Car has a flat tire? Fixed flat tire by replacing with a stone tire so it won't get flat anymore. I don't see the problem? They wanted to adjust the endgame protoss army without making the voidray weaker. There is a reason behind every adjustment, even if you can't see it (or is too blind to read the OP where its explained). If they simply adjusted the damage output, then not only would it be weaker lategame, it would also be weaker early game, which isn't what they wanted. Thus: raise the food a little bit. The reapers didn't work out, and they admitted it. Now they're trying something new. The problem with the reaper is that if they adjusted the damage output, it would either be too strong earlygame, or too weak to be ever be used (like it is in WoL right now). So they are trying new things to see if they can fit it in the game. One of them actually included a damage adjustment, but that alone isn't enough. But since you have this amazing idea of how it's suppose to be done, how about we hear your ideas instead? The Reaper is a "gimmicky" unit which has only its speed and the jump ability to go for it. This is far less user friendly / useful than Blink of Stalkers in a battle. Coupled with their pitiful range and tiny damage they really become rather useless, but thats not the true part which limits the unit. What really prevents them from ever being what Dustin and his cronies dreamed they should do is the core "massive numbers of units" design for SC2. Against huge armies you simply cant use this kind of cutesy gimmicky unit and their combat stats - which are appropriate for their speed and cliffjumping maneuverability - because you need true combat power once the engagement begins. Since the game is designed to be all about "massive engagements" from the mid game onwards they become totally useless there and then ... They could only make the Reaper useful later on if they abolished their stupid concept of mass battles, but that is really really REALLY unlikely. So, Dustin, just give up on this unit and work on mech instead ... Any unit can always be salvaged. Giving the reaper a small aoe for instance would do wonders to it, and make them viable with bio vs zerg all the way to lategame. Unfortunately then they would fill much of the same role as the hellion, and thats not what they want. Also, more scouting early game scouting is good for all the races. More information means that players can feel more confident about being aggressive and not have to play as defensively. I have always felt that lack of constant, early game information gathering is the reason why the current metagame is so defensive. If the reaper fills this role, more power to it. If they can find a way to give it a neat late game upgrade that gives small groups of them something useful to do, also awesome. Thats an interesting theory. Do you think the game would be more aggressive if both parties didn't have any fog of war? Or is there a limit to what you should be able to see untill no one bothers to do anything because they'd know exactly what to do anyways? I know it sc2 wont be the same without fow. But just wondering if whetever other or newer games would benefit from it.
I think some of the best micro battles we see in the game are when the players know exactly what the other side has. If you think of early game TvP in WoL, there is some really awesome stuff that happens in an early game pressure with marines and that single stalker that is always out on the map. The reason they do that is because both sides know what they are facing. But as the game goes on , becomes hard and hard for players to know exactly what they are facing and they become more defensive.
I don’t think perfect information is good, but right now there are several minutes in the early game where one side in each match up is in the dark. Protoss can’t tell if the zerg invested in lings and ling speed or when a terran started stim or when medivacs come out. Most of this is dealt with my players super defensive and having a built that allows you to deal with anything the other side throws at you, or some form of blind aggression that players can hopefully pull back from.
I don’t think it is the only problem with the WoL, metagame, but it seems to be a large one. A lot of the professionals are very good, but aggression does not seem to pay off in the early/mid game. I really thing this is because they have to spend so much money and effort to basic information like what unit the opponent is building. Giving everyone a way to collect information on the map, constantly, it better than the current metagame. If people have better information, such as the exact army size or set up, the games will be more awesome as a whole.
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plansix i really like your post here
things i think are similar, interactions i really like:
the marines vs 1 stalker interaction or the CB zeal+stalker 12g vs 4 rines micro battle or how slayerscoca used to make 8 lings on every ohana zvt and kill the terrans marines+ bunker, lol
when battles are practiced thats when the meta happens. For example in some taeja tvps, he'll go up to 4 medivacs totally blindly and by this point he is poking pretty hard, but he starts 2 vikings > lets them finish vs collosus > cancels vs HT and grabs an academy
everyone has seen a 10 min +1 medivac in TvP, protoss knows to expect it. it becomes a game of positioning with blink stalkers in the main, focefields in the front and just as perfect decision making as possible for both sides cause terran can really do dmg in this time and potentially even end the game by sniping key units. they cool thing is seeing players like taeja reactively alter their production while attacking simply because of learned timings and experience its really what separates the best from the rest
in zvt there is some darkness on 4p maps but you can still operate on some queues. i was watching mkp in WCG vs some zerg, he didnt really play very well at this tournament but he dropped a 3rd CC the minute he was sure it was a 4queen build. Like literally the second he saw the 2 queens at the front making the tumors he made a 3rd CC. obviously this doesn't mean his speed is extremely delayed like its a 6q build,and zerg could have even started a gas before queens 3/4. he can't really know, but he is really only operating based on unit count
the ordering of 3cc really does changes for some players based on what they see from zerg, if they are just blindly dropping everything at the same timing their execution might be sick but imo i'd rather be 100% sure of a decision and make it 15 seconds later than blindly doing it esp vs z
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On January 22 2013 04:38 larse wrote:
PvZ early-to-mid game plays exactly the same as WOL. Protoss can still do 3-immortal push or pheonix-colossus push and kill Zerg before BL. Zerg needs to have something that can defend those pushes more reliably, since in late-game Protoss now has tempest and skytoss to deal with BL/Infestor. Protoss doesn't need to kill Zerg before BL now but they still can. This will lead to balance problems.
TvP Mech is still not viable. They should buff tank damage and they don't need to worry about TvZ because of how powerful viper is in terms of shutting down mech.'
FF is still broken as fuck. If they don't want to change warpgate, then fucking nerf FF and buff Zealot and Stalker a bit.
Oracle is now the worst-designed unit ever. Two vision spells and a voidray-like weapon? Just how can you make something that is so overlapped and redundant. Either give oracle bw irradiation or bring time-warp back, and combine revelation and evision into one spell.
irradiate would be fucking out of control on oracles
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I really think that its stupid that you cannot be aggressive in zvp or zvt.
Seriously mothership core + forcefields make any aggression almost throwing the game away. Widow mines+ vikings makes it so you cannot attack terran for a large period of time, combine that with tanks and you cant really ever attack before huge mass or t3.
They are making the same mistake, the game will evolve to a passive 15minutes macro race to deathball armies. They need to promote unit trading all game, just like in broodwar.\
Seriously, remove forcefield, balance accordingly. Give better option for a zerg to have mobile detection that wont die so easily to 1-2 viking+ widow mines. Nerf mothership core defensive abilities... Im not sure just throwing those out there but...
We NEED to have it viable to trade units ALL game... As long as you micro well, it should always be an option.
Right now... No amount of micro will make it viable to trade with a protoss early when they have mothership core that you cant attack+ forcefields. Widowmines and siege tanks and turrets makes it super cost inneffective to pressure a terran with everything zerg has.
The prize money and viewership for tournaments is always droping... and im almost sure its because the games are so predictable nowadays... and the first 10minutes of the games are always the same unless its all-in... super passive, turtle to deathball.
Seriously, what is everyones favorite matchup?? Its ZvT Ling bane mutas vs marine siege tanks wol style pre infestor buff.
Why? Unit trading all game, alot of aggression on both sides, TONS OF MICRO INVOlved where battles can swing one way or another depending on micro and engagement.
They need to take example on that, and try to make every matchup similiar to this.
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On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote:
Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z.
Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz:
"We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of."
"Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base."
"Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz:
We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz.
"Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it."
"Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz:
"Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro.
BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is..
I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
my god it's posts like this that make me not want to read any of the threads in this section.
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On January 22 2013 06:03 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:55 Swartblits wrote:
Am i the only one feeling that we should really just have 2 races. T and Z.
Since Blizzard has no intention of making Protoss a fun race to play with.
Blizz:
"We found time warp to be imba vs Terran so placed it on the momma core of which you can have only one of."
"Our aim is to make all oracles deadweight expensive observers once the enemy has 1-2 turrets in base."
"Oh yes and Infestor range is now 10 to allow maximum chaining of fungals to kill entire armies while working on your fith base droning non stop." BUT that time warp had to go omw imba!
I havent seen a single replay where a pro used it at all and i watch casts daily.
BLizz:
We realise that infestor fungal together with Hydras will decimate void rays because they have such short range but HEY void ray vs Hydra was imba because of the charge... that do no extra damage vs them.. Add the timer! Make it visible! SkillRays are IMBA! Increase the food count make the P army smaller! Make it such Infestor + crack Hydras will decimate any Void ray, Zeolot army. Sprinkle in some corruptors to burst down any clos and we have our wish! Imba zerg yet again."
Comon... WOL voids were stronger when charged up fully yet that was no problem.. Now u have speed hydras and its a problem now??..
Blizz.
"Oh give Protoss the Core. Easy defense early right! Make it darn expensive so he has to make a tech choice to get it."
"Make sure they are not stronger defensively than queens! We cant have Protoss expanding too much.. Barely enough energy for 1 charge up on a SINGLE nexus. We must allow Zerg to 4 hatch into a 5th (ala catz) without allowing Protoss an early third."
We seeing 4 hatch before pool builds vs Protoss with queens and speedlings that cant be stopped easily. All this while denying protoss a third. Fortunately P can defend a single expo with their core. Rubbish...
Blizz:
"Lets give the core that have limmited energy a warp back BUT when an oke warp back NERF it so its a 5 sec delay before the units appear and is shown to the attacking force. This way the attacking enemy can see the warp back coming, move thier units onto the shades and burst them down as soon as they land not allowing any micro.
BUT HEY we seeing lots of Nydus worm play which we really happy about. Zergs attacking with IT.....core cant.. and also retreating back into them saving all units inside. Good we happy."
My point is..
I feel for every ability Protoss get every time it gets nerfed Sooo much its no fun and always somehow inferior to something Zerg has..
my god it's posts like this that make me not want to read any of the threads in this section.
Exactly.
People need to let it go for a while. We can't conclude an update that early imo.
Pros find different tactics sometimes long after the upgrade was applied.
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On January 22 2013 05:31 c0sm0naut wrote:
plansix i really like your post here
things i think are similar, interactions i really like:
the marines vs 1 stalker interaction or the CB zeal+stalker 12g vs 4 rines micro battle or how slayerscoca used to make 8 lings on every ohana zvt and kill the terrans marines+ bunker, lol
when battles are practiced thats when the meta happens. For example in some taeja tvps, he'll go up to 4 medivacs totally blindly and by this point he is poking pretty hard, but he starts 2 vikings > lets them finish vs collosus > cancels vs HT and grabs an academy
everyone has seen a 10 min +1 medivac in TvP, protoss knows to expect it. it becomes a game of positioning with blink stalkers in the main, focefields in the front and just as perfect decision making as possible for both sides cause terran can really do dmg in this time and potentially even end the game by sniping key units. they cool thing is seeing players like taeja reactively alter their production while attacking simply because of learned timings and experience its really what separates the best from the rest
in zvt there is some darkness on 4p maps but you can still operate on some queues. i was watching mkp in WCG vs some zerg, he didnt really play very well at this tournament but he dropped a 3rd CC the minute he was sure it was a 4queen build. Like literally the second he saw the 2 queens at the front making the tumors he made a 3rd CC. obviously this doesn't mean his speed is extremely delayed like its a 6q build,and zerg could have even started a gas before queens 3/4. he can't really know, but he is really only operating based on unit count
the ordering of 3cc really does changes for some players based on what they see from zerg, if they are just blindly dropping everything at the same timing their execution might be sick but imo i'd rather be 100% sure of a decision and make it 15 seconds later than blindly doing it esp vs z
It goes even farther than that. If you look at PvZ early game, while the third hatch is building, the main reason protoss does not have any presence on the map is that they have so little information. They don't know the army size, if the zerg has speed or if they are going heavy roaches. Often, they don't even know how many queens the zerg has. Any protoss army of any size is limited to the speed of the slowest unit, which is the sentry and zealot, which limits their options of escape if they get attacked early or the zerg build a bunch of early lings. Because the units cost a lot and the protoss also needs them to defendant, they choose the safer route a tutle.
If the protoss could know how big the zergs army was, even if they had to work for it, they could decide when to put on stalker or zealot pressure. But the important part is that they cannot get the information one time, like a scan. They need to collect the information over and over to have the option to call off the pressure or change plans. People say things like the MSC recall is free agression without risk, but it allows for some form of pressure where there currently is none. The same goes for the reaper. Currently in WoL, the terran risks 600 minerals in hellions just to make sure the zerg has taken a third and is not all-ining them. Just think of what they could do if they could confirm that earlier with just a reaper, every, single, game, without fail.
I like a world where we all can know what is going on if we are willing to work hard enough for it.
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I'd love to see them balance around the removal of forcefield. Giving stalkers even +1 damage would make 6gate allin virtually impossible for Zerg to beat as +1 stalkers would kill zerglings in 3 hits instead of 4, making them ineffective as a counter.
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On January 22 2013 08:24 Xequecal wrote:
I'd love to see them balance around the removal of forcefield. Giving stalkers even +1 damage would make 6gate allin virtually impossible for Zerg to beat as +1 stalkers would kill zerglings in 3 hits instead of 4, making them ineffective as a counter.
At this point it would be near impossible. I also don't think forcefields is that bad of a spell anymore, especially in hots. No one is making 12 sentries anymore to cover the map in forcefields, because they will be rendered useless the second archons are on the field, while greatly increasing the time you need to tech up (they do cost 100 gas after all. Having 3 sentries instead of 12 gives you 900 extra gas to play with! That is a lot).
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On January 22 2013 08:24 Xequecal wrote:
I'd love to see them balance around the removal of forcefield. Giving stalkers even +1 damage would make 6gate allin virtually impossible for Zerg to beat as +1 stalkers would kill zerglings in 3 hits instead of 4, making them ineffective as a counter.
Instead of buffing units because you happen to favor that race, why not reintroduce new game play elements? Like EMP taking out FF or gaurdian shield blocking an EMP then dissipating afterwards or when you FF a unit they can't get damage/attack (acting as a stasis field) or moving DTs to the templar archives or restoring snipe to how it was prenerf but only reducing damage to massive units or making spore and spines massive units or making fungal only root on creep or giving the corrupter an ability to reduce armor.
I much rather have Blizzard introduce new micro abilities or spells than changing stats on units, because if the last two years of WOL is any indication people will just build what ever is OP at the moment.
One realistic thing I would like Blizzard to do is move Viper to being available after Lair and moving Infestor to a tier3 unit. Rather than relying on a spell caster that damages, you can force people to use a supportive spell caster during the mid game instead of the boring infestor play we've seen the last 6 months. I mean Zergs are able to tech to Hive pretty fast, I doubt switching the infestor to tier 3 would have much of an effect.
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Is there any resource that lists all the changes from WOL to HOTS?
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
On January 22 2013 11:05 Rotodyne wrote:
Is there any resource that lists all the changes from WOL to HOTS?
Unfortunately, there isn't an updated and consolidated resource so you would have to look through the balance updates and feature patch notes.
Balance UpdatesFeature Patches
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Just got crushed by a 7roach rush with burrow.
Fuck me.
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On January 18 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 15:51 SolidMoose wrote:On January 18 2013 15:20 Infernal_dream wrote:On January 18 2013 13:53 IamPryda wrote:
tier 1 burrowed roaches are just retarded now that mothership core cant detect What exactly is retarded about them? The health regen has to be researched, burrow movement has to be researched. Both of those are t2. Health regen is free lol So yeah. Roach aggression. When a roach gets weak, burrow it. Essentially, you can keep pressure forever on a FE terran until they can outright kill the roaches from full health. Zerg players dont use "Roach burrow micro" because they dont need it. They dont even research burrow most of the time and still win. Protoss players HAVE TO use Blink or Forcefield to make their Stalkers last in a straight up battle and yet Zerg players DONT have to do the same with burrow ... seems really unfair.
It is so unfair that protoss have to micro their units. Wtf is blizzard thinking for fucks sake!?!? My gosh everyone knows that terrans are the only ones who micro...
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On January 22 2013 08:24 Xequecal wrote:
I'd love to see them balance around the removal of forcefield. Giving stalkers even +1 damage would make 6gate allin virtually impossible for Zerg to beat as +1 stalkers would kill zerglings in 3 hits instead of 4, making them ineffective as a counter.
Not really ... if you keep the health of Stalkers the same. The real problem is the massive number of units combined with the perfectly tight unit movement. This increases the "damage per square" according to the size of the unit and the rather very small Zerglings and Marines (stronger for the Marines since they are ranged and more than the front line can shoot) gain a lot more than the rather big Stalkers. Since you also have smaller battles of 1 Stalker against a 3-4 Zerglings this is problem for the unit balance. Stalkers also require Blink to be useful ... in addition to Forcefield ... so things get even more complicated than that.
On January 22 2013 05:33 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 04:38 larse wrote:
PvZ early-to-mid game plays exactly the same as WOL. Protoss can still do 3-immortal push or pheonix-colossus push and kill Zerg before BL. Zerg needs to have something that can defend those pushes more reliably, since in late-game Protoss now has tempest and skytoss to deal with BL/Infestor. Protoss doesn't need to kill Zerg before BL now but they still can. This will lead to balance problems.
TvP Mech is still not viable. They should buff tank damage and they don't need to worry about TvZ because of how powerful viper is in terms of shutting down mech.'
FF is still broken as fuck. If they don't want to change warpgate, then fucking nerf FF and buff Zealot and Stalker a bit.
Oracle is now the worst-designed unit ever. Two vision spells and a voidray-like weapon? Just how can you make something that is so overlapped and redundant. Either give oracle bw irradiation or bring time-warp back, and combine revelation and evision into one spell. irradiate would be fucking out of control on oracles
Irradiate is a TERRAN spell ...
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On January 21 2013 14:09 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 10:52 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote:
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3. Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1? I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all.... Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers. If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL. BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans). Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain. Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote:
SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech. Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game? You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early. Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them). You are making up problems. Baneling Nest 100/50 Burrow 100/100 Baneling 50/25 Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely.
In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL.
Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers.
In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens.
Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time.
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On January 22 2013 18:56 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 14:09 Rabiator wrote:On January 21 2013 10:52 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote:
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3. Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1? I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all.... Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers. If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL. BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans). Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain. On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote:
SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech. Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game? You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early. Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them). You are making up problems. Baneling Nest 100/50 Burrow 100/100 Baneling 50/25 Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely. In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL. Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers. In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens. Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time.
The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green.
The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor.
The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us.
Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have.
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On January 22 2013 19:39 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 18:56 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 14:09 Rabiator wrote:On January 21 2013 10:52 Spyridon wrote:On January 21 2013 00:50 SiroKO wrote:
And moving the Evolve Burrow upgrade to the Hatchery will obviously open the gates to some ridiculous and unscoutable Zerg all-in/traps, which will add even more randomness/camping, basically 2 of the 3 main reasons why I believe Starcraft II can't compare yet to SC1 and even Warcraft3. Wait.... so moving Evolve Burrow to hatchery... something that was in SC1... is making the game less enjoyable than SC1? I don't see how that logic makes any sense at all.... Nearly every change to Zerg in HotS was influenced by something in SC1. From Hydra speed, to Ultralisks, to Burrow, to "Dark Swarm", even Abduct is used in nearly the same exact way as Spawn Broodlings since it is used to take out a single unit. Swarm Hosts are basically a dumbed down harder to use version of Lurkers. If anything, HotS has brought things closer to BW. At least for Zerg. The complaints should be that Zerg doesn't have anything really "new", just things we lost from BW that we should have had in WoL. BW didnt have Banelings (tier 1), burrowed moving Roaches (tier 1.5) and far more detection (at least for Zerg and Terrans). Spawn Broodlings was on a non-massed unit ... hardly anyone ever built Queens in BW, but for Vipers that will be a totally different thing since they not only have abduct but also "dark swarm" and the energy recharge drain. On January 21 2013 11:53 TheSambassador wrote:On January 21 2013 11:27 Donger wrote:
SC:BW had lurkers that would decimate low hp units like terran bio if the terran didn't have mobile detection. As burrow was hatchery tech lurkers were lair tech. The dynamic was, terran can put pressure on zerg until lurkers came out and then tehy didn't push out until they had science vessels allowing the zerg to expand. SC2 is now similar to BW however banelings destroy low hp units like terran bio. Banelings and burrow on hatchery tech would force terran to have mobile detection. If you wanted it to be like BW even more you would move the banelings nest to lair tech. Do you even know how much an investment it is to go baneling nest + burrow + banelings early game? You are SEVERELY overestimating the amount of power burrowed banelings provide and underestimating the investment it is to get them early. Hell, most of the time you don't even move out with marines in SC2 early game. Hellion openers are still going to be standard for the map control that they provide. Burrowed banelings do next to nothing to hellions (Queens are plenty good at dealing with them). You are making up problems. Baneling Nest 100/50 Burrow 100/100 Baneling 50/25 Not that much of an investment if you compare it to other races ... Terrans for example with 200/100 for factories EACH or 25/50 gas for EACH tech lab/reactor. The whole point of early burrowed Banelings is to be safe and drone up hard behind that, but apparently you missed that entirely. In response to the first part, I never said Broodling was on a massed unit. Only thing I said was it was a similar spell in usage. Just like everything else Zerg got in HotS. That was my only point... All the Zerg changes do nothing but bring Zerg closer to their SC1 incarnation than they were in WoL. Your Viper comparison makes no sense either, I already mentioned "Dark Swarm" and the "energy recharge drain" you mention is basically a dumbed down version of Consume that Defilers had. Ironic that in trying to prove them as different, you only showed even more things that Defiler had in common with Vipers. In response to the last part of your post, you say that's not much of an investment, but you don't seem to understand that Zerg build orders work a bit different than the other races, and in order to work all of those things in to your build you have to drastically alter your build order. It's very hard to include all of those upgrades in to a fully optimized build and actually make use of it before the opponent is well in to T2 without going all-in. Especially because you can't focus T1 for a little bit longer and be as safe as the other races because if an opponent scouts that you don't have a lair you are extremely vulnerable to air once they have enough to take out the Queens. Besides, all this OP Zerg talk is silly at this point. For the last 2 patches top 16 now has a basically equal assortment of P/T, and only 1 Zerg. Worst showing Zerg has had in a long time. The efficiency of a spell DEPENDS upon the number of units you are building which can cast it. If you dont build the unit to cast it it doesnt matter if a spell destroys the whole army of your opponent or only changes their colors to green. The comparison to Vipers does make sense since they will always have max energy, so it doesnt matter if you only have a few of them. The spell is as powerful as if you had five times as many casters due to that ability. I didnt compare anything to the Defiler; I only pointed out that the Viper will be yet another Zerg caster with too many powerful spells ... which is a terrible combination we have with the Infestor. The minimum line of the shift of burrow to hatch tech is that you can basically NEUTRALIZE ALL HARRASSMENT with it by simply burrowing your workers ... thus either forcing scans (note the plural) and hurt the economic development of the Terran AND get a useful but underused skill for your attacking units at the same time. In addition to this you can really shut down Zergling aggression since burrowed Banelings dont risk being blown up by enemy Banelings or nibbled to death by a single Zergling as much ... if the opponent doesnt have detection. Since the only mobile Zerg detection is T2 and burrowed Banelings is T1 there is the possibility of really boring or rather "limited to Roach vs Roach" ZvZ ahead of us. Who is on top of the ladder atm doesnt matter because things change too much and the last argument concerns ZvZ anyways. Protoss dominance will probably not last that long since the units will most likely be nerfed again. Widow Mines dont really work well as part of an army, so Terrans didnt really get something viable. As soon as people learn to scout for them and how to kill them with minimal losses they will become dead weight. Vipers on the other hand require a bit of skill to get used to and thus their power will increase over time ... just as the Infestors have.
Well, if you're going to use burrow to save your banelings, I'm just gonna go use those 100/100 on 4 more banelings.
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