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Beta Balance Update #12 - Page 16

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
491 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 14 15 16 17 18 25 Next All
drkcid
Profile Joined October 2012
Spain196 Posts
January 18 2013 12:57 GMT
#301
I dont see a big deal with burrow change, by the time the Z player get resources and research burrow it would be easy for T and P deal with it (I dont know about Z). Even more, a T1 Burrow research can delay speed upgrade for zerlings or hive upgrade.
Just for fun
nihlon
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden5581 Posts
January 18 2013 13:01 GMT
#302
The base denial worry seems quite exaggerated.
Banelings are too cute to blow up
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 13:03:04
January 18 2013 13:01 GMT
#303
Meanwhile. current HOTS GML

[image loading]
Millet
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden143 Posts
January 18 2013 13:09 GMT
#304
Everyone is overreacting to the burrow change. If you don't have a command center/nexus planted before zerg has burrow, you are bad and deserve to lose. Zergling burrow might be able to deny an earlier third that a lair tech burrow ling couldn't, but that is another story. And by that time everyone can waste a scan/have mobile detection.

I'm more concerned about early burrowed roaches. Since they heal 5 hp/s when burrowed. I'm guessing that robo play will become standard once again in PvZ.
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
January 18 2013 13:14 GMT
#305
I'm more concerned about early burrowed roaches. Since they heal 5 hp/s when burrowed. I'm guessing that robo play will become standard once again in PvZ.

Void Rays can wipe roaches quickly, and Oracles can detect also
Millet
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden143 Posts
January 18 2013 13:20 GMT
#306
On January 18 2013 22:14 Existor wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'm more concerned about early burrowed roaches. Since they heal 5 hp/s when burrowed. I'm guessing that robo play will become standard once again in PvZ.

Void Rays can wipe roaches quickly, and Oracles can detect also

Yep, didn't think of that. So no need for alarm guys..
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
January 18 2013 13:29 GMT
#307
Watching these vods, the author points out something interesting: it looks as though you can now bait widow mines with burrow micro and take only the splash part of the damage.

In the video he clearly unburrows a low-hp roach, which activates a widow mine. He reburrows before the projectile hits, and the roach only takes splash damage.
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
Rider517
Profile Joined June 2011
70 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 13:36:09
January 18 2013 13:35 GMT
#308
+ Show Spoiler +

On January 18 2013 21:49 Existor wrote:
Show nested quote +
it applys on any opponent unit on any mu

The reason is that you got 2 units that can snipe infestors - Ravens and Battlecruisers. And both will start with upgraded armor, because you're doing mech-build which includes mech upgrades. More armor for air units means Infested Terrans become less strong against air, including nerfed anti-armored damage of fungal

Show nested quote +
you cant focus fire with widow mines nor manually detonate lol

But they will trigger to closest units. If they target lings, then 2 splash shots will kill half of eggs. If they hit infesteds, so then more eggs will be with splash and some of them can die. And I don't talk about siege tank support.

Show nested quote +
ok but enemy units don't target it since they are low-priority target

Same as widow mines. They have 19 attack priority. Lesser than other units.

Show nested quote +
so? hellbats have a good attack but it's not an infestor-nerf

Any buff that works against infestors = infestor nerf. You got more tools to counter infestors. So instead nerfing Blizzard buffed terrans. And I like that design direction

Show nested quote +
nope, they remain with 1 hp, regen you know? anyway it's not a nerf to infestor

It's an indirect to Infestors, because they can't create 200 unkillable eggs, and you can easier deal with them with storms, warp fields, colossies or just recall. More tools means less trong imba things. Instead nerfing Blizzard buffed options to counter it. Another point of good design direction

Show nested quote +
they need vision, anyway these are mechanics not infestor nerf

Oracles provide vision with revelation. And it's an indirect infestor nerf via buffing tools against it.

Show nested quote +
10- mechanics again, not nerfs
11- mechanics again...and again...and again...lol

Mechanics that alows to fight with infestors more effectively. You can dodge Fungal projectile and save your phoenixes from stun.


Zerg requires more micro to use Fungal. So it's another indirect nerf to Infestors - harder to use them, and it looks interesting too and probably balanced.

You will stop whine about Infestors only when they will be deleted from the game. So silly

lol, just lol @ everything you wrote

zerg requires more micro to use fungal, pffffffff
"indirect nerfs to infestors"

nuff said
uh-oh
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Hong Kong135 Posts
January 18 2013 13:35 GMT
#309
On January 18 2013 21:57 drkcid wrote:
I dont see a big deal with burrow change, by the time the Z player get resources and research burrow it would be easy for T and P deal with it (I dont know about Z). Even more, a T1 Burrow research can delay speed upgrade for zerlings or hive upgrade.


I think your case only stands in the current ZvX meta game, where you only get enough gas from a single gayser for ling speed, or not getting any gas at all before 3 bases. I feel like with this change, zergs may try and experiment with early gas openings, getting 2 gases and then research both ling speed and burrow, which should be early enough vs most robo/stargate timings protosses can throw at you. You'll force terrans to waste scans too instead of muling, which takes away a big advantage from their early game.
Al though as a protoss player, i don't know what ways exactly can zergs use burrow to be aggressive. maybe burrow roach micro or baneling landmines?
Speaking of baneling landmines ZvZ early to mid game will get a whole lot crazy with early burrow :D
When I get to grandmasters, you have my permission to die!
Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
January 18 2013 13:39 GMT
#310
On January 18 2013 21:11 dcemuser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2013 20:22 ChromeBallz wrote:
Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.

Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.


Burrow is a waste of 100 gas in the early game. Use your own gas to make a Raven/Observer as a counter.

Not for Baneling defense ... where the threat of it alone will make Zerg invulnerable to any attacks without detector ... so basically any small size attack. Early Marine drops or rushes? Not going to be scary anymore ...
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
neozxa
Profile Joined August 2011
Indonesia545 Posts
January 18 2013 13:40 GMT
#311
I really like the burrow to hatchery tech change, but for once I really wish that they buffed gateway units in favor of "deathball" units such as Collosi.

2 Supply tanks please, Blizzard :D
Keep moving forward
Greendotz
Profile Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2053 Posts
January 18 2013 13:42 GMT
#312
On January 18 2013 12:10 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
A timer is just stupid, seriously.

Have an icon pop up like stim that'll blink as it wears off AND/OR have the beam glow a different hue, e.g. darker hue.
Right now its so subtle, its hard to tell the beam got bigger from the overlap from more than one beam or if prismatic alignment was used.


Agreed, I don't know what it looks like yet but the idea of a massive digital clock appearing above every single VR just seems like a ridiculous image. There must be a better way to do it, I also hate the way a unit lights up bright red when they're targeted by a seeker missile. It's so blindingly obvious and easy to move the unit away, what was wrong with the old version with a thin discreet line? You can still see which unit/s are targeted but you need to be paying attention (hard to do in a large maxed supply battle). When you're unit's are lit up in ALERT ALERT ALERT bright red only the most incompetent players wont retreat in time and it looks so dumb. The timer on the VR will have the same silly appearance.
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
January 18 2013 13:54 GMT
#313
zerg requires more micro to use fungal, pffffffff

I meant against air. They must cast it more smart to hit quick air units. Against ground units it remains same, just less damage against armored units.
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
January 18 2013 14:05 GMT
#314
On January 18 2013 22:39 Rabiator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2013 21:11 dcemuser wrote:
On January 18 2013 20:22 ChromeBallz wrote:
Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.

Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.


Burrow is a waste of 100 gas in the early game. Use your own gas to make a Raven/Observer as a counter.

Not for Baneling defense ... where the threat of it alone will make Zerg invulnerable to any attacks without detector ... so basically any small size attack. Early Marine drops or rushes? Not going to be scary anymore ...


Presumably the threat of widow mines alone makes Terran invulnerable to any attacks without detector...?
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
monsta
Profile Joined November 2012
172 Posts
January 18 2013 14:08 GMT
#315
haha amagine in ZvZ early burrow ...
Emuking
Profile Joined June 2012
United States144 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 14:12:36
January 18 2013 14:12 GMT
#316
disengaging is so hard in this game without taking huge losses once you commit your blob to their blob
When you want to succeed as bad as you want to breath, then you'll be successful.
FLuE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1012 Posts
January 18 2013 14:12 GMT
#317
On January 18 2013 17:30 SolidMoose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2013 16:04 FLuE wrote:
On January 18 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:
On January 18 2013 15:51 SolidMoose wrote:
On January 18 2013 15:20 Infernal_dream wrote:
On January 18 2013 13:53 IamPryda wrote:
tier 1 burrowed roaches are just retarded now that mothership core cant detect


What exactly is retarded about them? The health regen has to be researched, burrow movement has to be researched. Both of those are t2.


Health regen is free lol

So yeah. Roach aggression. When a roach gets weak, burrow it. Essentially, you can keep pressure forever on a FE terran until they can outright kill the roaches from full health.

Zerg players dont use "Roach burrow micro" because they dont need it. They dont even research burrow most of the time and still win.

Protoss players HAVE TO use Blink or Forcefield to make their Stalkers last in a straight up battle and yet Zerg players DONT have to do the same with burrow ... seems really unfair.


Every toss basically forge fe so no real worry there you can get an extra cannon.

As Terran with the reaper it is easy to scout a roach burrow all in. Save a scan.

Hardly anyone will notice this change. It might lead to a few cool plays here and there. The fact is the cost early game is significant. If it gets scouted you will be behind. 100 gas that early makes some crazy early all in worthless. What damage is 4 burrowing roaches going to do?

I really think in 98% of games it's a non issue.


Save a scan to kill them with...a reaper? That a terran can somehow afford while still having defense against roaches. Maybe if the scan itself killed the roaches this would work.

And when did roach aggression become all in?


In what world do I have enough roaches to do serious damage with burrow and you only have a reaper? If I go let's say 1 base 7RR, the 100 gas of burrow means that's now a 3RR with burrow. Plus your reaper should scout this and obviously see it is coming. Say on the other hand I go with an FE to burrow rush, again should be fairly easy to scout and you can have plenty of options at that point. I can't afford burrow and move to hit some timing so if you save a scan and I try some cute burrow micro you will clean it up. There are very few players who have such great micro that they would rather have burrow than 4 more roaches to hit an early timing.

As a Zerg I'm way more concerned about scouting and being ready for fast widow mines than when I play Terran worried about burrow.

What this might do, like the Phoenix build buff, is simply draw attention to burrow so people get it more often but you can still get it pretty fast before if you wanted and people still rarely upgraded it. It's a huge early game investment that will put you behind if you get it and do nothing productive with it.

I swear people can up with stuff and don't even think it through. Stop acting like Zerg gets free burrow.
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 14:38:05
January 18 2013 14:34 GMT
#318
On January 18 2013 23:12 FLuE wrote:
In what world do I have enough roaches to do serious damage with burrow and you only have a reaper? If I go let's say 1 base 7RR, the 100 gas of burrow means that's now a 3RR with burrow.


That's not exactly right, though, is it?

Burrow = 100/100
Roach = 75/25 + 25 minerals supply

I know gas != minerals exactly, but you're only swapping out about two roaches of resources mined for burrow, if you adjust when you take your gas.

Also, burrow means retention. That alllows your reinforcements (which are as fast as ever) to snowball, so although you might have fewer roaches to begin with, or hit slightly later, it's no longer just about one big punch. Nor is it no longer the rule that you need speedlings in order to reinforce quickly enough: roach retention with burrow means you can reinforce with more roaches instead.
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
Seiniyta
Profile Joined May 2010
Belgium1815 Posts
January 18 2013 14:50 GMT
#319
So people start whining about the voidray timer:

[image loading]
Pokemon Master
AdrianHealey
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium480 Posts
January 18 2013 14:52 GMT
#320
I can't imagine that getting burrow so fast can be worth it, unless for some gimmicky defense tactics.
I love.
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