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On January 18 2013 19:51 Skiblet wrote:
Anyone else supremely worried about ZvP. I mean, Toss goes FFE, or anything that involves a slightly delayed robo and all zerg has to do is make 7 roaches with burrow. Snipe cannon then every 10 seconds roaches have full HP again. Maybe I''m not sure of the timings yet but thats the first problem that came to mind. Otherwise good changes!
Burrowed roach regenerates 5 life per second. So it is not 10s but 27s at worst. That is enough for toss to build a new round of units and put some cannons further back. With MSC toss early defense has never been better and allowed toss to go greedy early expands. This just means if you see roaches being build make +1 cannon then you would normally.
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United Arab Emirates20 Posts
Someone please describe how the void ray is different with this ability than in WoL
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They should add a timer to fungal and stimpack too, it would let people micro more.
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Netherlands201 Posts
Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.
Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.
It'll also make baneling bombs a massive issue at a stage of the game where mobile detection is hard to get... Bad move imho.
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On January 18 2013 20:22 ChromeBallz wrote:
Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.
Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.
It'll also make baneling bombs a massive issue at a stage of the game where mobile detection is hard to get... Bad move imho.
Exactly this. Zerg already has TOO MUCH base denial options atm, and now it get's even worse...
I would also like to see a creep nerf in HOTS. Why? I was watching IEM, and TLO planted a hatchery forward, cancelled it, and put tumors on it. You can't believe how fast the creep spreaded. This was my post + goswser's reaction:
On January 17 2013 23:13 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 23:10 Snowbear wrote:
I wonder what terrans can do about this creep madness? You can't really be agressive early game, because if you are, you are allinning, and we all know how viable terran allins are against zerg.. If you are passive, creep will be everywhere, which means 1) you have to fight on creep (= not cost efficient), and 2) it's hard to take a 4th. Terran actually can't do anything, in my experience. They just must play standard from a disadvantage. It only costs zerg 75 minerals for the cancel, and the 4 queen opening is standard anyways, so there really isn't any downside to the zerg.
I have no problem with a race having the best macro options. I don't have a problem with the same race having the strongest army in the game. What I have problems with is that the same race also has the best expansion denial options, the best vision (creep and overlords) and a unit that counters everything (infestor).
User was warned for this post
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On January 18 2013 20:28 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 23:13 goswser wrote:On January 17 2013 23:10 Snowbear wrote:
I wonder what terrans can do about this creep madness? You can't really be agressive early game, because if you are, you are allinning, and we all know how viable terran allins are against zerg.. If you are passive, creep will be everywhere, which means 1) you have to fight on creep (= not cost efficient), and 2) it's hard to take a 4th. Terran actually can't do anything, in my experience. They just must play standard from a disadvantage. It only costs zerg 75 minerals for the cancel, and the 4 queen opening is standard anyways, so there really isn't any downside to the zerg. I have no problem with a race having the best macro options. I don't have a problem with the same race having the strongest army in the game. What I have problems with is that the same race also has the best expansion denial options, the best vision (creep and overlords) and a unit that counters everything (infestor).
You forgot "the most free units of all races" in the list.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
a unit that counters everything (infestor).
It was nerfed by many times:
- buffed Terran air armor
- no upgrades for Infesteds
- fungal have 10 less damage against armored units
- widow mines can clear mass infesteds
- lower health of IT eggs means they're weaker against sieges and widows
- hellbats can 2-shot them
- protoss can recall if there is a lot of IT around. Infestors lose all energy, protoss loses nothing.
- storms can kill 80hp IT eggs
- tempests can snipe infestors and broods, HT can feedback. Why tempests are better, because they can fire at infestors and not be fungaled. Maybe only abducted, so it becomes more balanced.
- you can slow infestors with warp-field and storm/feedback them more effectively
- phoenix can avoid fungal projectile with high speed and lift up infestors
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On January 18 2013 20:22 ChromeBallz wrote:
Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.
Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.
Burrow is a waste of 100 gas in the early game. Use your own gas to make a Raven/Observer as a counter.
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A lot of people seem to be getting "Burrow" confused with burrowed movement. Zerg will be able to upgrade burrow at tier 1, NOT burrowed movement. That will remain on Lair tech.
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mirco against void ray? It doesn't matter if there is a timer or not, that is not the problem. The real problem is the stupid chasing attack that is not possible to kite void ray with carrier, tempest, corruptor. You either overpower the void rays with more units or just don't engaged them until you have enough units to handle them.
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BIG YES to Burrow change <3
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bye bye M.U.L.E early game :/
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On January 18 2013 21:05 Existor wrote:It was nerfed by many times: 1- buffed Terran air armor 2- no upgrades for Infesteds 3- fungal have 10 less damage against armored units 4- widow mines can clear mass infesteds 5- lower health of IT eggs means they're weaker against sieges and widows 6- hellbats can 2-shot them 7- protoss can recall if there is a lot of IT around. Infestors lose all energy, protoss loses nothing. 8- storms can kill 80hp IT eggs 9- tempests can snipe infestors and broods, HT can feedback. Why tempests are better, because they can fire at infestors and not be fungaled. Maybe only abducted, so it becomes more balanced. 10- you can slow infestors with warp-field and storm/feedback them more effectively 11- phoenix can avoid fungal projectile with high speed and lift up infestors
it's funny that you call many of those an "infestor-nerf"
1- it applys on any opponent unit on any mu
2- that's a nerf
3- another nerf
4- you cant focus fire with widow mines nor manually detonate lol
5- ok but enemy units don't target it since they are low-priority target
6- so? hellbats have a good attack but it's not an infestor-nerf
7- seems fair, since zerg got a lot of free units like it, locust and broodlings
8- nope, they remain with 1 hp, regen you know? anyway it's not a nerf to infestor
9- they need vision, anyway these are mechanics not infestor nerf
10- mechanics again, not nerfs
11- mechanics again...and again...and again...lol
seriously zerg needs a fix ASAP, hots is less then 2 months away and many issues has not yet been addressed
how can you let the race with the most explosive macro be so strong in defense, that's paradoxical
and i'm not speaking about terran and protoss issues
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 18 2013 21:36 FalletLoki wrote:
bye bye M.U.L.E early game :/
Hello "FFE Terran Edition" with engineering/turret, aka FEE - Fast Engineering Expand
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You guys are overreacting so harshly
This patch does NOT say : Zergs start with free burrow at hatchery tech
again, for emphasis
This patch does NOT say : Zergs start with free burrow at hatchery tech
The difference between a speedling expand (also 100 gas) and a normal 3 hatchery opening is HUGE. Mining 100 Gas actually costs you
1) 130 minerals of mining time
2) another quite significant amount of minerals a minute from losing a drone
Add to that, if you also need speed (which is considered a requirement), -> you lose 200 gas and 200 minerals.
That all sums up to
STOP WHINING
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Show nested quote +Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.
Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began.
It'll also make baneling bombs a massive issue at a stage of the game where mobile detection is hard to get... Bad move imho. Exactly this. Zerg already has TOO MUCH base denial options atm, and now it get's even worse...
If I wanted to block your expansion I would use the 100 gas for a lair and block with an overlord. It would block it faster and for longer once you noticed its blocked. Toss have two units that detect as well as cannons, it would be silly of me to get fast burrow just to block expansions. Terran have two orbitals and turrets before they usually takes their third.
The only use I've found with fast burrow is to get an easy win against gasless terrans.
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On January 18 2013 19:54 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 17:48 InVerno wrote:
Oracle is not a detector, people (especially zerg advocates) seems to not understand this, oracle got an abilty for detection, are two very different things. Oracle pops out with 50 mana, if you want to afford a ground push you need at least 100, 50 for a safe travel, and 50 for the engage, this means you build an oracle and you have to wait 100seconds idle with your oracle before anything, pretty dumb. Atm Robo is the only way to get a decent mobile detection, stop saying bullshits like "hey man you got an observer from the stargate ohoho" This is just whining now. Terrans had to work like this forever. Would you rather it was back to WoL and only observers and Cannons were detectors?
I was hoping someone would make this comment because I was just about to say something on this myself at this horrendous misconception everyone seems to have about the Oracle.
No. Terrans haven't had to "work like this forever". An Oracle requires Pylon>Gateway>Cyber Core>Stargate to build and costs a lot of gas. An Orbital Command requires Supply Depot>Barracks to build and costs only minerals.
The only way you'd get something comparable is if orbitals couldn't scan and your only detection other than the Raven was a scan ability on the Ghost. The Oracle can temporarily detect but it isn't a detector, thats the important part. Which means any army movement is going to absolutely require an observer with earlier burrow available.
Also I find it highly amusing that so many Zerg are going "well every Protoss just FFEs anyway so its a non-issue". However apparently its unacceptable for Protoss to say that mech being unviable for Terran is a non-issue because they all go bio. Lovely double standards there.
On January 18 2013 21:11 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 20:22 ChromeBallz wrote:
Zergs researching burrow asap and placing zerglings at all the expansion locations even sooner in the game.
Zerglings are too cheap to not do this as much as possible. Will be a very annoying move... At least when burrow was on lair you could take a third as P/T before those shennanigans began. Burrow is a waste of 100 gas in the early game. Use your own gas to make a Raven/Observer as a counter.
-_-
Do I even need to point out the huge cost difference between 100 gas burrow and teching to and getting an Observer (175 gas) or Raven (425 gas!)?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
it applys on any opponent unit on any mu
The reason is that you got 2 units that can snipe infestors - Ravens and Battlecruisers. And both will start with upgraded armor, because you're doing mech-build which includes mech upgrades. More armor for air units means Infested Terrans become less strong against air, including nerfed anti-armored damage of fungal
you cant focus fire with widow mines nor manually detonate lol
But they will trigger to closest units. If they target lings, then 2 splash shots will kill half of eggs. If they hit infesteds, so then more eggs will be with splash and some of them can die. And I don't talk about siege tank support.
ok but enemy units don't target it since they are low-priority target
Same as widow mines. They have 19 attack priority. Lesser than other units.
so? hellbats have a good attack but it's not an infestor-nerf
Any buff that works against infestors = infestor nerf. You got more tools to counter infestors. So instead nerfing Blizzard buffed terrans. And I like that design direction
nope, they remain with 1 hp, regen you know? anyway it's not a nerf to infestor
It's an indirect to Infestors, because they can't create 200 unkillable eggs, and you can easier deal with them with storms, warp fields, colossies or just recall. More tools means less trong imba things. Instead nerfing Blizzard buffed options to counter it. Another point of good design direction
they need vision, anyway these are mechanics not infestor nerf
Oracles provide vision with revelation. And it's an indirect infestor nerf via buffing tools against it.
10- mechanics again, not nerfs
11- mechanics again...and again...and again...lol
Mechanics that alows to fight with infestors more effectively. You can dodge Fungal projectile and save your phoenixes from stun. Zerg requires more micro to use Fungal. So it's another indirect nerf to Infestors - harder to use them, and it looks interesting too and probably balanced.
You will stop whine about Infestors only when they will be deleted from the game. So silly
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diamond terran here,
I did some ladder and i must say the burrow change for zerg is quite exciting. Roach early pressure are a real pain in the ass right now. Zerg has now an early repeat harass ability with some regen mechanism as protoss have with shielded units and terran with the new reapers. So everyone got early regen ability all different on their own and i think this reward good micro overall. So it's goooooooood!
I play exclusively 3 rax reaper and i would say that the HP buf was unnecessary as reaper were already very strong in all matchups. I actually expected a nerf of some sort. I guess at pro level people can deal with it with much ease so why the HP buff.
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I think the reaper is useless.. it doesn't do almost any damage. Not even the 60 HP will help that much
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EPT
