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On January 10 2013 10:16 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 10:13 Spyridon wrote:On January 10 2013 09:33 Gretorp wrote:
hey guys put my thoughts here:
<snip>
....
Thanks for a real thought out opinion without all the sensationalist complaining! I really wish more people would stop the "end of the world" mentality and think more logically about the changes, and wait until trying them out a bit before judging if a match-up is "ruined" or not. And this is coming from a Zerg player who likely has more to worry about than any other race from these changes lol. Only somewhat "iffy" change is the Reapers, it's hard to judge those sort of changes without playing. No tech lab and free movement speed is something that needs to be tested before judging. About the damage change, let's be honest, it was kind of insane how fast they could ravage a mineral line for how easy they could get in compared to the other races units, so a change in roles is probably for the better of the game. But it's obvious this is only the beginning of more Reaper changes, not only from what was changed but also from what was implied by David in the thoughts. Remember, it's more important to have a fundamental role for a unit in beta, because the combat statistics can be tweaked with just statistic number changes later on and be brought up to par. That's far better off than Zerg was in WoL, where they are still lacking many fundamentals of other races through the entire lifetime of the game, and had to be overbalanced statistically in certain ways to make up for it. Zerg has more to worry about now? Uhh no. Protoss does. No MSC detection is horrible. No seige requirement, meaning earlier 1/1/1 timings which are inevitably going to come are going to destroy us.
Protoss were already in a far better place than the other races. Not only did they have stronger matchups that pigeonholed the other races strats, but you could have done a quick browse of the rankings to see the truth of that. 13 of the top 16 were Protoss like 2 days ago...
Not to mention Protoss is still in a very very strong place vs Zerg. Loss of early detection isn't going to make a diff in PvZ.
Sounds like your more mad that Mech may be a viable option now when it wasn't at all before.
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siege tank change is a non-change. what would a 1 tank rush achieve?
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dunno how i feel about the mothership and oracle switches. the envision ability was a must in order to detect early spider mine harass.... althought it does feel more appropriate to have time warp on the mothership, we'll see how it goes i guess...
the tank buff was unexpected. but if it makes mech vs protoss viable i spose i dont mind...
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Oh gush this Balance update is sooooooo good!
I've been suggesting for months to remove Tech Lab requirement for Reapers, it really allows for gameplay to sprout forth.
Now it's not only an early game unit, but more so a late game unit, totally spicing Bio play up, with even more harass opportunities which Bio is all about and the cost comes from Gas, the resource that always go up to 1-2k in lategame PvT's.
For those of you that have seen QXC and Thorzain play around with this lategame, you know what I talk about, when I say it's freaking awesome!
Hellbats are now much more maverick units, rather than being only the support that Siege Tanks require.
Medivacs were just OP before.
Raven we will see, but single target damage spell, was kinda silly.
I'm a little weary of the Siege Tank buff, since Mechs only strength vs Toss in WoL is some kind of weird push, this will buff those pushes, but not really help Mech in all the other situations where it just lacks vs Toss.
Envision on Oracle, should've been Revelation now detects, but this is great, since atm, we as Toss just don't care if opponent goes invis units.
Mothership is now viable again, but not great, which is what they're aiming for, so amazing!
Fungal change is kinda big, this means Voidrays are now an even bigger pest vs Zerg, hope people realize this. But it's good that they're nerfing Fungal.
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Reaper seems too weak now, but other changes are very good. Overall I like this patch. 
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Um, I think hellbat all ins are way too strong o.o how do you stop it? (TvP, lol they rape everything so easily)
(Maybe you have to have lots of sentries to keep FFing him out?)
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Fun factoid. You can go 14 cc into one gas and have enough gas to pull off a reactor barracks straight into 2 reapers.
Lines up kinda nice even for a shitty player like me.
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wtf seriously. Making the game easier is not the way to balance. Siege mode research has lots to do with skills and now you remove it? What a lame and lazy way to address design failures
I feel like shit just like how spore doesnt require evo
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Whoa gestapo moderation much?
Anyways, I'm kind of annoyed with how I have always been going mech in TvP and losing a lot of the time to half decent protoss, and this tank buff changes literally nothing.
User was warned for this post
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Medivac
Caduceus ReactorNo longer improves the healing rate of Medivacs.Upgrade cost decreased from 150/150 and 110 seconds to 100/100 and 80 seconds
I thought that was the upgrade. What does it do now?
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I kind of like the new siege change. This way you can use tanks immediately to hold off some of these silly all ins that protoss can pull on you.
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They should just make a medivac upgrade that give the medivac the speed boost and more efficient energy healing but doesnt increase the speed at which bio is healed. I really feel like an un upgraded medivac should not be able to have speed boost cause in the early mid game and slightly later mid game normal drops work fine.
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Reaper seems too weak now, but other changes are very good. Overall I like this patch.
Remember they still heal out of combat, this just means constant APM harass, more Reapers, but have kinda a hard time to snipe anything quickly, which means great micro play from both parts.
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I actually was looking forward to HOTS with the brand new upgraded medivacs with caduceus.....
But since they removed it, I see no reason to play again. Thanks Blizz
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On January 10 2013 10:33 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +Reaper seems too weak now, but other changes are very good. Overall I like this patch. Remember they still heal out of combat, this just means constant APM harass, more Reapers, but have kinda a hard time to snipe anything quickly, which means great micro play from both parts.
constant unit tickling!
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So strange how the made so many changes for the reaper to end up once again making it's only purpose scouting effectively removing it from the game after putting this much work into it, I assume this will be changed. If they halved the cost of reapers I guess they could become an option to massing marines but really don't see that happening anyway.
Honestly I can't get a grip on these terran changes, they all seem really odd. If they at least made the afterburner cost energy to use the change of the energy upgrade would make sense as that might actually be worth it to have quicker use of afterburners.
With a 5 second timer on the missiles now won't all pro players be able to run out just about any unit in time?
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I would love to sit in on Blizzard team meetings to hear what they talk about and how they come to these conclusions.
Yes please, I don't know what they are thinking sometimes. Really not a fan of no siege tech. For Terran mech it seems odd, it might help against some timings from the Protoss? But it doesn't actually make the army stronger which has been one of the core issues of TvP mech being weak. And TvZ, it just removes aggressive options for the zerg as the timing window for attacks just got a lot smaller. None of these changes strike me as amazing, and maybe I was expecting too much for the first major HotS patch in 2013. Meh.
Edit: Oh and with the Orcale losing Time Warp, seems as though alot of the feedback from earlier on was just lost.
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I don't have a problem with most of these changes.
The siege tank change seems like a bad approach to improving mech- there's no longer the tension of whether siege mode will finish in time for an attack, and because of this siege tanks seem like more boring units now. Besides, it doesn't improve mech at all after siege mode is finished. Why not just buff tanks slightly?
I don't agree with the medivac upgrade change, because medivacs running out of energy is not much of a problem for late game terran. A healing speed increase for medivacs seemed like a fine way to improve the strength of lategame bio, it was just too strong in its current implementation. If the medivac speed boost cost energy, then making caduceus reactor only reduce the energy cost of healing would make more sense, because terrans would more often run out of medivac energy.
I really like the reaper changes. Hopefully they'll be incorporated more into the mid-late game, with less power in the early game. They probably deal too little damage at this point, however.
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On January 10 2013 10:32 uyubo wrote:Show nested quote +Medivac
Caduceus ReactorNo longer improves the healing rate of Medivacs.Upgrade cost decreased from 150/150 and 110 seconds to 100/100 and 80 seconds I thought that was the upgrade. What does it do now?
It only increases healing efficiency, more HP for less energy feedback will be a nightmare with all those medivacs that don't use much energy to heal. Hope the toss isn't watching the minimap if you drop!
Reapers will now take an insane amount of time to kill anything. A damage nerf is good IMO but all bonus to light seems kind of heavy handed,
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I feel many of the game directions are horrible
viper? please dear lord it should be replaced with a different cool combat unit. zerg has the least amount of combat units compared to toss and terran
swarmhost? in all honestly the swarmhost is nothing more than a melee version of infested terrans that doesnt require energy. blizzard took the SPELL of infestors and turned it into another unit for zerg hah talk about overlapping
the widow mines just feel dumb. Battle hellions are decent i guess
oracles and tempests are actually fairly decent
i highly feel viper, swarmhost, and widow mines should be removed. I also think the MSC should be removed too, protoss doesnt need fricking recall early game.
to be completely honest I feel blizzard should release HOTS but keep patching the game and adding new units and keep designing the HOTS balance through release patches (simply treat release like a new beta). And tournaments can keep using WoL until blizzard officially announces HOTS is tournament-balance-ready
EDIT: the only big updates WoL needs right now to be made slightly better in tournaments is 1) remove vortex, 2) mothership movespeed and accell increased to 3.5, and 3) mothership mass recall is given a 90 second cooldown 4) give mothership timewarp at 50 energy and slighter larger AoE
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EPT
