EPTBlizzard to focus on Mech this week. - Page 7
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On January 09 2013 09:43 vthree wrote: The resource requirements for mech and bio are very different (mineral intensive vs gas intensive). Also, bio is much more mobile and you can be aggressive and put on pressure with 50 supply of bio vs similar supply Protoss. You cannot do it as mech at all. It is like telling Protoss players that they need void rays to support their colossi/stalker army. Very similar in fact. Protoss goes Colossi-Stalker they will lose to basically anything that Terran builds (Colossi Stalker gets raped by mech in straight-up engagements and by bio in all ways, excepting a couple of risky timing attacks). So Protoss has to add Templar and Archons (both a LOT more expensive than ghosts, Templar don't benefit from upgrades at all, btw and Archons don't benefit from armour, which is the most important upgrade in PvT). Mech HAS to include ghosts (and vikings depending on the Protoss composition). Just like Protoss gateway units HAS to include Colossi and Templar (one or the other or even Archons with lots of upgrades can do ok for a while, but will eventually be overrun). On January 09 2013 09:50 Markwerf wrote: Just change the immortal already... What point is there is in trying to force mech through buffs as long as protoss has a unit specifically designed to counter mech... The only result of terran buffs will be that TvZ and TvT get pigeonholed into boring mech matchups.. Tank could use a very little buff but it won't make mech viable in TvP and will only offset the other matchups more... Remove hardened shield and just give immortals +50 shields, they will practically be the same in PvP/PvZ and against marine/marauder but they will be much weaker against tanks! I guess they could let siege tank shots bypass the immortal shield as well for the same effect but that would be ugly from an aesthetic point of view. At the same time widow needs need to do more single target damage and less aoe, so they become useful against protoss again. Preferrably i'd see detection gone from the MsC too so protoss is forced to actually scout and get some tech before it can deal with widow mines. Immortals by themselves are NOT a problem for mech (not even a little bit). Maxed armies of immortals and tanks favour TANKS, despite hardened shield. Immortals are amazing against small numbers of tanks (which is good because the 1-1-1 is still pretty strong, even with immortals), but terribad against tanks supported by ghosts, especially in large numbers. EDIT: To be clear I'm not saying mech is awesome (in fact it kinda sucks in HotS, but was good but hard in WoL) and I firmly believe the tank needs a buff (slightly higher damage or larger splash, 100 gas and 2 supply would be good, plus the addition to the Terran army of the Goliath). | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 09 2013 04:42 AdrianHealey wrote: I love it when Blizzard gives feedback. That's literally the most important thing to do. So that we 'know' that they are doing 'something'. The sad part is that you will see things you DONT want to see too, stuff like this for example: We are not trying to create a "Factory Only" option for Terrans in this match up that works in every game on every map all the time. We want all Factory to be useful sometimes Since they moved the "healer" from the barracks to the Starport it is obvious that you need Medivacs for bio play (except rush strategies), but why is it good to force such diversity? Due to the separated buffs it is a terrible idea and merging them isnt a good thing, because it means they simplify the game to make their own vision work. That is the wrong way. I fear this might mean we will NOT see a viable AA unit for mech because they dont want to let their pants down and say something like "yep, we screwed up, the Thor stinks as AA and the Goliath is better and needed" and instead get a buff to Vikings instead. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
I would adore if TvP mech became like this. Some maps are good for bio, some for mech. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On January 09 2013 16:05 Salivanth wrote: What I'm guessing they want is something like what ZvT used to be, before Infestors became incredibly strong. You could go Mutas, or you could go Infestors. Some maps were better for Mutas, some for Infestors, and it was good for a Zerg to know both styles for this reason. I would adore if TvP mech became like this. Some maps are good for bio, some for mech. Believe it or not but most map are pretty good for mech. Atleast in the current map pool. This is because there has to always be an easy to access third other wise ZvP is imbalance due to the stephano 200 roach because protoss need an easy accessable third. This also help mech quiet a bit because an easy accessable/defendable third help mech secure a third more easily because of their immobility. | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
The reason Bio is standard is that it works in 99% of the standard metagame. Its ok for early pressure its ok against allins its kind of avarage in the lategame. Bio is viable in almost all situations that can occure that is the reason why its standard in tvp and tvz (i count Marine Tank as bio). Some people say Mech is working in Wol and here is my opinion why they think that: It works !only! because its not standard and not "the metagame". Lets play a little bit "what if". Imagine for a moment Mech would be standard. There would be holes bigger than the grand canyon in the terran strategies because Z and P would figure out really fast the weaknesses that can be exploitet. It´s a design problem that makes mech weak not just numbers. Terran need to react what the others are doing and with the enormous costs of the infrasture and the upgrades Mech is very bad by design. Terran will always the race that fight against the clock because it has no late game macro mechanic. Thats not bad it makes it the most entertaining race. But it makes "mech" impossible to play as "standard". In my opinion there are 2 options that could help: Give Mech a lategame macro mechanic like a Factory only techreactor (very expensive, needs fusion core) Redesign Thors or Battlecruiser to a "force a reaction" unit. Like Colossus, HT or Broodlords work. I´m thinking of "ok he builds BC´s i have to do something against them or they will destroy me in x minutes" | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
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Grendel
Belgium126 Posts
On January 09 2013 11:49 SC2John wrote: I think that this whole "bonus to x" system that Blizzard has worked out in SC2 is really one of the most problematic things with the game. The fact that half of SC2 units do extra damage to armored, light, or massive shows that Blizzard cannot seem to find an elegant, simple design. The Ultralisk flat 35 damage was the best thing Blizzard's done in a long time for making the game better, and I hope they try some solution like that for tanks (like 60-70 flat damage) or immortals (40 flat damage). Are you aware that BW was exactly the same? Tanks did 70 damage there, but did only 50% vs light and 75% damage vs Medium armored units. That's exactly the same as giving it bonus damage. Differences are though, that versus shields, damage always did the full amount, and that there was no such thing as the immortal. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
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Telenil
France484 Posts
On January 09 2013 15:21 Rabiator wrote: The sad part is that you will see things you DONT want to see too, stuff like this for example: Apart from "it is awesome in Brood War", why is that a terrible thing? There is no building in the game that can make you win games on its own, even barracks need medevacs. You would hate the game if mass stargates could stand against every composition, so why do you want pure factories to do that? The core of mech is the positionnal play + harassing with faster unit. Something isn't mech just because it comes from the factory, but on the other hand, it can still be mech even if all units don't come from the same building. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Doing that also should not effect the other match ups either? TvT might make it less of a turtle match up if anything, but tank vs tank so not much different. And banelings will still have the same effect vs non siege mode tanks. Thinking about it, it might effect tank vs roach battles, but normally the only reason that is happening is if the zerg player is rushing roaches and hitting an early timing attack to punish helion expand builds? Would like to see that implemented rather than a buff to a unit dps wise, or another added. | ||
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
On January 09 2013 17:56 Telenil wrote: Apart from "it is awesome in Brood War", why is that a terrible thing? There is no building in the game that can make you win games on its own, even barracks need medevacs. You would hate the game if mass stargates could stand against every composition, so why do you want pure factories to do that? The core of mech is the positionnal play + harassing with faster unit. Something isn't mech just because it comes from the factory, but on the other hand, it can still be mech even if all units don't come from the same building. well thats not completely the truth... in some cases it works for a spedific timing window... for example 4 or 7 gate all ins... or mass roach... i remember when adelscott played really good with gateway units only... | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for blizzard if they do not buff the tank thor anti-air could also need buffing | ||
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Duncaaaaaan
United Kingdom101 Posts
Mech openings work, it's called widow mines. They are cheap and as you approach your maxed army phase them out (they are horribly supply inefficient like a roach, yes). Put them in your enemy's mineral line or just kill them yourself. One thing that sucks across all openings however is that terran is forced to put two turrets in each mineral line and a turrets at the natural entrnace next to the bunker, because protoss early game is like a coinflip, DTs, oracles might be on the map and you're fucked if you don't prepare. It can be nearly impossible to scan these buildings, you need to judge based on the amount of gas the protoss is mining. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On January 09 2013 19:43 Duncaaaaaan wrote: God I hate the blizard forums, it is rampant with cumrag league discussion and QQ. Mech openings work, it's called widow mines. They are cheap and as you approach your maxed army phase them out (they are horribly supply inefficient like a roach, yes). Put them in your enemy's mineral line or just kill them yourself. One thing that sucks across all openings however is that terran is forced to put two turrets in each mineral line and a turrets at the natural entrnace next to the bunker, because protoss early game is like a coinflip, DTs, oracles might be on the map and you're fucked if you don't prepare. It can be nearly impossible to scan these buildings, you need to judge based on the amount of gas the protoss is mining. How do you place your widow mines in TvP opening mech? In my experience, they are very easy to snipe with stalkers.. I've also died to 2 base colossus timing using widow mines few times. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 09 2013 17:56 Telenil wrote: Apart from "it is awesome in Brood War", why is that a terrible thing? There is no building in the game that can make you win games on its own, even barracks need medevacs. You would hate the game if mass stargates could stand against every composition, so why do you want pure factories to do that? The core of mech is the positionnal play + harassing with faster unit. Something isn't mech just because it comes from the factory, but on the other hand, it can still be mech even if all units don't come from the same building. The "factory style" you describe has enough difficulty on its own due to the immobility, but "forcing" this style to rely upon units from other buildings too much is a terrible thing, because it makes it too complicated and in the end not worthwile. Against the Tempest you basically NEED the Viking, but WHY should it be necessary? Blizzard dont want to admit that they screwed up with the Tempest (and the Broodlord/Infestor combo) and change these units and so they are falling back to the "we dont intend to do this" option and just tell us to build other stuff too to make it work. | ||
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Dekker
Germany169 Posts
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gedatsu
1286 Posts
On January 09 2013 05:22 a176 wrote: So they are fine with 'barracks only' bio solution on all maps, but they won't allow 'factory only'. The hell? How often do you win with/lose against bio with no medivac/viking support? | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On January 09 2013 14:57 althaz wrote: Immortals by themselves are NOT a problem for mech (not even a little bit). Maxed armies of immortals and tanks favour TANKS, despite hardened shield. Immortals are amazing against small numbers of tanks (which is good because the 1-1-1 is still pretty strong, even with immortals), but terribad against tanks supported by ghosts, especially in large numbers. EDIT: To be clear I'm not saying mech is awesome (in fact it kinda sucks in HotS, but was good but hard in WoL) and I firmly believe the tank needs a buff (slightly higher damage or larger splash, 100 gas and 2 supply would be good, plus the addition to the Terran army of the Goliath). Lol you tested immortals against siege tanks in the unit tester and found that at some high number of supply on both sides tanks actually beat immortals?? That means really little.. There are a few problems with mech in TvP two of which are: - you need a very high mass of units to be safe, even if you're in great defensive positioning. This makes it very difficult to open with mech or to defend a more open map. This is mostly because the immortal is so rediculously good against tanks - 200/200 battles usually end up with the terran only winning by a small margin at which point a round of warp-ins crushes the terran, this is also because zealot/archon/immortal is so damn effective. That there exists some theoretical point at which point siege tanks beat immortals if immortals are just a-moved into tanks is completely irrelevant. Siege tanks are just not effective enough at all against protoss which is largely a result of the immortal, a siege tank expand or small groups of well placed siege tanks are not even reliable as defense since high ground advantage is pretty much moot in the days of the MsC and immortals can easily walk in. It's bad to let mech be too reliant on EMP, first of all it's really hard to get ghosts with mech in a decent timeframe. Secondly it just makes EMP the vortex of TvP then, either you hit it and roll over or you die completely. It's not really fun gameplay that way. Besides it's really hard to use EMPs to remove hardened shields effectively as siege tanks outrange your ghost.. If P moves in immortals first your tanks already waste a volley or 2 on the hardened shield before the EMP hits and P get's to close in with his zealots/archons.. A simple hardened shield removal wouldn't affect any matchup really except mech v P, it's just a straightforward solution to the exact problem they want to solve.. | ||
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