Widow mine nerf was too much. Too many bronze players amoving into mines...? Blink is understandable. Infestor range buff is just lol. All it needed was the speed buff.
the problem i still think is the pinning, Fungal is the only spell that causes to stick the units so they can''t move. and 1 good fungal mostly means 10 good fungals (aka chain fungal) storms emp's dont have that shit.
and therfore the infestestor is also a skilless unit compared to HT and gosts
make it so that less units can't move or the original idea psyonic units (or other forms of units) are not effected would look like a cool idea.
inb4 you must be T or P i am random and yes zerg is my best race..
It just means that it is useless in highlevel play. I cannot see someone like MKP, Life or Parting ever getting hit by a projectile that is designed to be dodgeable. Hence, the ability won't get used for such purposes.
"Random crapshoot" at least means that it is going to be useful. It also means that you can just walk away from a unit with such a power upon seeing them, like you do with Tanklines. And I haven't heard that tanklines are badly designed.
Banelings are dodgable. Storms are dodgable, if not in their entirety, than to an extent that vastly reduces their damage output. Both are still used consistently in even pro level matches. The reality is, positioning is important. An ability that is powerful if it hits, but dodgable, still has an important use in forcing your opponent out of position, and in punishing them if they insist on trying to hold their current one. It is also true that even for pros, once army sizes get large enough, simultaneously perfectly controlling every unit becomes impossible--more banelings land, and more storms hit, as players have more and more to control. The same would be true of Fungal, with the additional change that once one Fungal hits, they all hit, since you can chain fungal.
The idea that the previous iteration of Fungal would never be used in pro matches is absurd. What is true, is that it would not be the core backbone of the Zerg army upon which everything else relies--but that is imo very much a feature, not a bug.
No. Neither of them are completly dodgeable. You can mitigate their damage, hence let banelings explode on fewer units, storms go off on fewer units on less duration. But when they go off they will do damage to something.
I'm also not talking about whether this speed change is good or not. That's something only GSL/Proleague etc can show us. I'm against the notion that everything should be dodgeable. Out of all the ways to do damage in SC2, there are like 2 that are completly dodgeable (HSM, Yamato... and only very fast units can do that). All the other splash abilities (including any form of fungal) can be mitigated by preemtive spreading, and in the case of storm even reactionary. That's it. You can't spread after a tank or colossus hits you. You are prespread or not.
Fungal growth would never be *completely* dodgeable. The problem is, in the current form it's *completely* undodgeable. It might as well not be a projectile. Making it into a projectile should have put it into a middle ground where you can get some of your units out of the radius, but not completely ignore it. But right now, nothing is different. If you think this is fine, you can say it, but most people think that fungal growth in it's current form is a problem.
A lot of people were under the impression that it was too dodgeable with 10speed. With 15 speed it's still probably only like 75% of EMP speed.
I can't tell you which values are correct. That's what the beta is for. The range buff to 10 however is stupid. Probably.
At 10 speed, it's really hard to hit faster units like phoenixes or mutalisks. But if you're using it against marines, you'll still more than likely get at least half of them. The problem is that there's no way for fungal growth to be in the anti-air/anti-harass role without being so fast that it's completely undodgeable in normal battles.
And that's good. Countering small units like marines is exactly the designed purpose of fungal. I'm all for making it skilldependend to which degree, but if one player makes the strategical choice to run marines into infestors, than the Infestor player should be in the better position. Not so much if the Terran brings siege tanks (because they should be a superior choice to infestors - and hopefully are now with the IT changes)
It's not just marines, but everything. Fungal growth counters *everything* and is completely undodgeable. Winning automatically because you chose to build infestors is wrong. Having unit compositions hard-counter each other without any regard for in-battle micro or any level of skill at all is, at least in my opinion, bad.
Look at the other marine 'counter' psi-storm. Terran players can dodge *most* of the storm if they're good enough, but it's still enough to put the Protoss player in a better position. Not the case with fungal growth. Unless you're completely horrible at the game (which is usually a tenuous assumption), your fungal growths will land on everything, everything, everything.
I disagree. ITs used to be good vs Tanks and Thors and Archons and Immortals. Fungal isn't really costefficient against those. It's not even that great against some medium sized units like roaches or marauders (obviously great against stalkers, because it prevents blink). That's why you see Zergs throwing mass ITs in ZvZ. 3 ITs>1Fungal in WoL, when you fight roach/hydra. (and also that's why you see hydras in ZvZ, as once you have a good infestor count to fungal everything and spam a lot of ITs, it's more costefficient to have some hydras than more infestors; though infestors are more supplyefficient)
Also, if you get like 2 full hits of psi storms on a mostly marine based army, even the best reactions won't safe you. So no, the counter to psi storm is not dodgin them, but to build less marines and more marauders and ghosts and preventing to get hit in the first place.
Please watch this video, then tell me you can't counter storm by dodging
Not to be a pessimist, I actually agree with you, but in that video the Protoss was attacking from a choke point into a well spread Terran army that was much bigger than the Protoss army. If dodging storms is literally the only thing you have to worry about in an otherwise perfect engagement, then it's quite doable, but it's mostly pre-emptive splitting than reactively dodging the storms. If a group of marines gets hit by a storm, they die (again, I agree this is entertaining though).
I predict the next balance update will be as follows:
Beta Balance Update #11
Hello everyone,
After testing these changes internally for a whole day and a half over the course of 5 or so games we have decided that the infestor changes are not quite drastic enough. Zerg players have been having trouble winning games with only infestors, and have been forced to make other units; something we believe is very problematic. We are going to put forward the following changes and look forward to your feedback.
Zerg: Fungal growth range increased to 15 Projectile speed is now 50
Now just to clarify siege tanks already have 13 range and its not that far. Also 50 speed is not that fast for a spell.
Terran: Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds Terran removed from the game
I've been playing bio the last few days and this fungal feels as strong or stronger than the WoL one. Any of your units can get fungaled without enough time to really even see the unit before trying to dodge. Also, good luck loading up into your medivac and running away when dropping and you see an infestor coming, that doesn't work anymore. You drop, it's going to die.
Also, I'm amazed that they are not nerfing ultralisk. I mean, they always want some unit to be used more, in this case they wanted to see Ultra in ZvP. However, that is not going to happen as long as immortal exists (one of many reasons why you can't mech in TvP). But holy shit, dealing with new ultra as Terran is just insane. You can not even think about engaging in an open area, even if you maxed out on marauders and tanks. All you can do is make chokes with buildings and go drop heavy play while sacking scv's behind it and going for 150 supply army ... Feels like WoL broodlord...
On December 20 2012 09:16 Huragius wrote: Also, I'm amazed that they are not nerfing ultralisk. I mean, they always want some unit to be used more, in this case they wanted to see Ultra in ZvP. However, that is not going to happen as long as immortal exists (one of many reasons why you can't mech in TvP). But holy shit, dealing with new ultra as Terran is just insane. You can not even think about engaging in an open area, even if you maxed out on marauders and tanks. All you can do is make chokes with buildings and go drop heavy play while sacking scv's behind it and going for 150 supply army ... Feels like WoL broodlord...
Yep, I have no idea what the hell to do on this game anymore. TvZ bio is awful because of the new infestor. TvZ mech is awful because of viper and the still-broken infestor/broodlord combo. They're both additionally awful because of the ultra buff.
TvP is awful because it's the same as WoL except now none of your attack timings work because of nexus overcharge. Mech is even worse because of the void ray and tempest.
TvT is the only balanced matchup, except TvT was made worse by the reaper change.
WoL is already pretty bad for Terran, and the hilarious thing is that HotS is somehow even worse. I can't find any strategy in this game that actually gives me an edge over my opponent.
This guy did a test showing the infestor buff. Notice though that he misses a marine at 2:05. However he also clicked slightly up of where the marine was so the fungal radius missed, but I think if he had clicked a bit lower then the radius would have hit the marine. That also means that the only way to dodge the new fungal is to be very close or at maximum range of the spell.
In regards to your BW comments. If they took the current graphics, and game play with the rally points, expanded unit selection etc... and upgraded BW into that.... I would 100% play brood war and I guarantee the pros would all go back to BW.
That would be SO cool.
I want a balanced game - not a shiny pretty one. Shiny and pretty is nice when there is balance.
Played my first TvP since the patch. That was the biggest joke of a match I've ever had. widow mines need to 1 shot gateway units to actually make early tvp not toss favored in every way
On December 20 2012 09:16 Huragius wrote: Also, I'm amazed that they are not nerfing ultralisk. I mean, they always want some unit to be used more, in this case they wanted to see Ultra in ZvP. However, that is not going to happen as long as immortal exists (one of many reasons why you can't mech in TvP). But holy shit, dealing with new ultra as Terran is just insane. You can not even think about engaging in an open area, even if you maxed out on marauders and tanks. All you can do is make chokes with buildings and go drop heavy play while sacking scv's behind it and going for 150 supply army ... Feels like WoL broodlord...
Yep, I have no idea what the hell to do on this game anymore. TvZ bio is awful because of the new infestor. TvZ mech is awful because of viper and the still-broken infestor/broodlord combo. They're both additionally awful because of the ultra buff.
TvP is awful because it's the same as WoL except now none of your attack timings work because of nexus overcharge. Mech is even worse because of the void ray and tempest.
TvT is the only balanced matchup, except TvT was made worse by the reaper change.
WoL is already pretty bad for Terran, and the hilarious thing is that HotS is somehow even worse. I can't find any strategy in this game that actually gives me an edge over my opponent.
Pretty much my thoughts as well. It is kinda strange that now you can't cheese protoss in HotS due to overcharge meanwhile they got new/stronger all-ins (MSC/Blink stalker, 3Gate Stargate with new sick voidrays and etc.). You have to play pretty safe while they will always be cutting corners...
And reaper buffs are kinda hilarious. They are still useless in other match-ups (unless against a bad zerg on specific maps) but they completely ruined TvT :/
EDIT: Wow, viper is just freaking insane O_o Just lost a 3/3 Marine Medivac Tank split-up army against roach/hydra/viper. And actually, my army was demolished, despite having splits, upgrade lead, and 1k higher army value... This just feels like WoL (just as frustrating) against a good zerg player. Kill them before hive or else you are doomed. Broodlord/Infestor is still damn strong and I have to worry about Ultralisk and Vipers as well :/... Not really enjoyable experience to play terran in HotS at the moment.
Fungal growth would never be *completely* dodgeable. The problem is, in the current form it's *completely* undodgeable. It might as well not be a projectile. Making it into a projectile should have put it into a middle ground where you can get some of your units out of the radius, but not completely ignore it. But right now, nothing is different. If you think this is fine, you can say it, but most people think that fungal growth in it's current form is a problem.
A lot of people were under the impression that it was too dodgeable with 10speed. With 15 speed it's still probably only like 75% of EMP speed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw9tZ-noLwc
I can't tell you which values are correct. That's what the beta is for. The range buff to 10 however is stupid. Probably.
At 10 speed, it's really hard to hit faster units like phoenixes or mutalisks. But if you're using it against marines, you'll still more than likely get at least half of them. The problem is that there's no way for fungal growth to be in the anti-air/anti-harass role without being so fast that it's completely undodgeable in normal battles.
And that's good. Countering small units like marines is exactly the designed purpose of fungal. I'm all for making it skilldependend to which degree, but if one player makes the strategical choice to run marines into infestors, than the Infestor player should be in the better position. Not so much if the Terran brings siege tanks (because they should be a superior choice to infestors - and hopefully are now with the IT changes)
It's not just marines, but everything. Fungal growth counters *everything* and is completely undodgeable. Winning automatically because you chose to build infestors is wrong. Having unit compositions hard-counter each other without any regard for in-battle micro or any level of skill at all is, at least in my opinion, bad.
Look at the other marine 'counter' psi-storm. Terran players can dodge *most* of the storm if they're good enough, but it's still enough to put the Protoss player in a better position. Not the case with fungal growth. Unless you're completely horrible at the game (which is usually a tenuous assumption), your fungal growths will land on everything, everything, everything.
I disagree. ITs used to be good vs Tanks and Thors and Archons and Immortals. Fungal isn't really costefficient against those. It's not even that great against some medium sized units like roaches or marauders (obviously great against stalkers, because it prevents blink). That's why you see Zergs throwing mass ITs in ZvZ. 3 ITs>1Fungal in WoL, when you fight roach/hydra. (and also that's why you see hydras in ZvZ, as once you have a good infestor count to fungal everything and spam a lot of ITs, it's more costefficient to have some hydras than more infestors; though infestors are more supplyefficient)
Also, if you get like 2 full hits of psi storms on a mostly marine based army, even the best reactions won't safe you. So no, the counter to psi storm is not dodgin them, but to build less marines and more marauders and ghosts and preventing to get hit in the first place.
Please watch this video, then tell me you can't counter storm by dodging
He was spreading before the storms were even casted. That's not dodging, that's prespreading. Basically any command he gave which countered a storm was given before the storm was starting.
So no, the counter to psi storm is not dodgin them, but to build less marines and more marauders and ghosts and preventing to get hit in the first place.
I believe the point here is not the difference between prespreading and dodging, (of which the former is still a form of dodging), but that you don't need "less marines and more marauders and ghosts and preventing to get hit in the first place" because, as seen in that video, he had MMM, no ghosts, didn't get hit (much) in the first place, and won that fight.
Reason why prespreading is still dodging is because the storms were already commanded to the HTs. Otherwise, the HTs would not have sometimes stormed almost nothing. You can do this with fungal and EMP too. Simply move your army around to somewhere where it wasn't just immediately before, because obviously they are going to target where your army was or is about to be if you don't change directions.
It's been pointed out to me in this thread, that people want to dodge upon seeing a projectile or a storm, not that they have to preemtively spread when they see Infestors or Templar. I just took over that terminology. Of course, prespreading and dodging are very similar things.
Futhermore, I should have written the logical "or = and/or" instead of and. I just wanted to say that all of those measures help and are the formula to win. (also that "storms hit" was meant as an "storms hit many units"; not that you have to prevent any storm from even being casted) And yeah, Dragon was very marauder heavy. It nearly looks like a 1:1 ratio, which usually means (as you produce a lot of marines early), that at that time in the game he was using multiple times as much money for marauderproduction as on marineproduction. Which I consider "less marines and more marauders". (also he was on his way to ghosts)
Ah I see, maybe I shoulda read the previous posts ^^
And yea you're right, didn't notice how many marauders he had.
It SHOULD be hard to hit something with fungal, you should have to be good with it and practice it. Because once you've hit something with fungal, you auto-succeed at hitting it however many times you need to finish it off, because it can no longer dodge.
Either make it hard for fungal to hit, or remove the root.
On December 20 2012 06:50 mhael wrote: This is an easy fix. Fungal should be broken into 2 spells 1 = fungal growth which is a disease in a DOT just like storm affecting a certain area where units run into that area - doing high damage over a few seconds. range of 9 just like Psi Storm. This does not stop movement speed of unit.
2 = Fungal Snare - which is a like a net that grabs units and holds them in place like fungal growth allowing surrounds etc... and does not cause damage.
Fungal Growth should not be range 10, and stop you from moving and it should be dodge-able just like storm is. The Snare spell should immobilize units and allow zergling surrounds etc...
This makes infestors a support unit only and not a full army on their own.
Also - Infestors burrow movement should be detectable (more so) like cloaked banshee or dts. Also - infestor should have to unburrow to cast anything.
AND/OR
You can remove pathogen glands from the game. Watch the round 2 of parting vs violet and see game 5 and violet forgets pathogen glands and it makes the game a lot more interesting.
However - right now - this game is 100% broken.
Will never happen with the current developer crew, makes the game too much broodwar.
That's an interesting idea, they mentioned they may want to remove NP entirely, so splitting it into 2 spells is possible.
On December 20 2012 09:00 WeaponX.7 wrote: I predict the next balance update will be as follows:
Beta Balance Update #11
Hello everyone,
After testing these changes internally for a whole day and a half over the course of 5 or so games we have decided that the infestor changes are not quite drastic enough. Zerg players have been having trouble winning games with only infestors, and have been forced to make other units; something we believe is very problematic. We are going to put forward the following changes and look forward to your feedback.
Zerg: Fungal growth range increased to 15 Projectile speed is now 50
Now just to clarify siege tanks already have 13 range and its not that far. Also 50 speed is not that fast for a spell.
Terran: Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds Terran removed from the game
lolol xD
Add "Barracks build time decreased by 5 seconds" and "Warhound added to the game" and it would be perfect!
The infestor buff is one the dumbest things I've seen from Blizzard. Do they not understand that changing it to a projectile does virtually nothing? Once the first one lands, it being a projectile is completely irrelevant.
Now it just has 10 range. I could have saved them the time and told them this would be ridiculously broken, but apparently we'll have to wait til next patch.
They REALLY need to get rid of micro-limiting abilities like fungal, force field, time warp, etc. UNLESS there is a way for the opposing player to counteract them, and casting the ability requires some thought and finesse.
Ideas to counteract make micro-limiting spells: - Slow fungal projectile to make it extremely dodgeable (since 1 fungal hit = 10 fungals hit) - Medivac "restoration" unroots fungaled units - Medivac with speed boost lifts units over force fields / roach burrow movement under ff (in hots this is actually better than in wol) - Medivac with speed boost lifts units to get out of time warp (and what about Mech?)
Ideas to make micro-limiting spells require thought and finesse - channeled ff (many variations here, eg. ff requiring energy in the same way as cloak: X to activate, while draining Y/sec) - time warp and fungal slow affect friendly units (I don't know why most Z and P spells don't affect friendly units)
EDIT: - Similar things can be said for "hard counters". Hard counters are not interesting because hard countering your opponent does not require finesse (though requires thought, or maybe more luck).
In general, the game should involve BOTH players trying to outplay each other, not whether one player plays well enough. Micro-limiting spells are making the game a one-player game.
EPT
