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On December 20 2012 10:22 ultratorr wrote:
They REALLY need to get rid of micro-limiting abilities like fungal, force field, time warp, etc. UNLESS there is a way for the opposing player to counteract them, and casting the ability requires some thought and finesse.
Ideas to counteract make micro-limiting spells:
- Slow fungal projectile to make it extremely dodgeable (since 1 fungal hit = 10 fungals hit)
- Medivac "restoration" unroots fungaled units
- Medivac with speed boost lifts units over force fields / roach burrow movement under ff (in hots this is actually better than in wol)
- Medivac with speed boost lifts units to get out of time warp (and what about Mech?)
Ideas to make micro-limiting spells require thought and finesse
- channeled ff (many variations here, eg. ff requiring energy in the same way as cloak: X to activate, while draining Y/sec)
- time warp and fungal slow affect friendly units (I don't know why most Z and P spells don't affect friendly units)
EDIT:
- Similar things can be said for "hard counters". Hard counters are not interesting because hard countering your opponent does not require finesse (though requires thought, or maybe more luck).
In general, the game should involve BOTH players trying to outplay each other, not whether one player plays well enough. Micro-limiting spells are making the game a one-player game.
Wait your telling me storm doesn't effect protoss units? if this is true that is fucking stupid. Tanks give splash.. to friendlies.
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On December 20 2012 10:31 rQvicious wrote:
Fortunately Blizzard has 3 months to balance it better. Don't forget sc vanilla and bw were not perfect overnight hell it took years, and years.
Years and years of no intervention on Blizzard's behalf. BW was so balanced because of the awesome map makers (SC was just silly ^_^)...
Blizzard needs to make better maps to go along with their beta tests. Right now most of the maps are quite bad.
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On December 20 2012 10:34 rQvicious wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 10:22 ultratorr wrote:
They REALLY need to get rid of micro-limiting abilities like fungal, force field, time warp, etc. UNLESS there is a way for the opposing player to counteract them, and casting the ability requires some thought and finesse.
Ideas to counteract make micro-limiting spells:
- Slow fungal projectile to make it extremely dodgeable (since 1 fungal hit = 10 fungals hit)
- Medivac "restoration" unroots fungaled units
- Medivac with speed boost lifts units over force fields / roach burrow movement under ff (in hots this is actually better than in wol)
- Medivac with speed boost lifts units to get out of time warp (and what about Mech?)
Ideas to make micro-limiting spells require thought and finesse
- channeled ff (many variations here, eg. ff requiring energy in the same way as cloak: X to activate, while draining Y/sec)
- time warp and fungal slow affect friendly units (I don't know why most Z and P spells don't affect friendly units)
EDIT:
- Similar things can be said for "hard counters". Hard counters are not interesting because hard countering your opponent does not require finesse (though requires thought, or maybe more luck).
In general, the game should involve BOTH players trying to outplay each other, not whether one player plays well enough. Micro-limiting spells are making the game a one-player game. Wait your telling me storm doesn't effect protoss units? if this is true that is fucking stupid. Tanks give splash.. to friendlies.
Storms do affect friendly units, but time warp doesn't, fungal doesn't. I can understand blings not doing friendly damage, but there's no reason for, for example, time warp and fungal to not affect friendly units.
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On December 20 2012 10:34 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 10:31 rQvicious wrote:
Fortunately Blizzard has 3 months to balance it better. Don't forget sc vanilla and bw were not perfect overnight hell it took years, and years. Years and years of no intervention on Blizzard's behalf. BW was so balanced because of the awesome map makers (SC was just silly ^_^)... Blizzard needs to make better maps to go along with their beta tests. Right now most of the maps are quite bad.
Hard to make maps when 1/3 of all match-ups depend on the force field.
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On December 19 2012 06:47 kaNt- wrote:
Somebody said David Kim was smart... YEAH SMART MY ASS
SC2 community have been complaining about infestors balance for over a year (of couse except al zergies). But now they rebuffed them in HotS? Reverse changes? Circle changes? wtf is going on, someone tell me please
Oh be quiet , zerg have been complaining about the infestor too, we get it in the mirror matchup tons , it takes away from muta and other play because of how good it is . Not all Zergs want the unit buffed of not changed , get god bias outta here
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On December 20 2012 10:40 ultratorr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 10:34 rQvicious wrote:On December 20 2012 10:22 ultratorr wrote:
They REALLY need to get rid of micro-limiting abilities like fungal, force field, time warp, etc. UNLESS there is a way for the opposing player to counteract them, and casting the ability requires some thought and finesse.
Ideas to counteract make micro-limiting spells:
- Slow fungal projectile to make it extremely dodgeable (since 1 fungal hit = 10 fungals hit)
- Medivac "restoration" unroots fungaled units
- Medivac with speed boost lifts units over force fields / roach burrow movement under ff (in hots this is actually better than in wol)
- Medivac with speed boost lifts units to get out of time warp (and what about Mech?)
Ideas to make micro-limiting spells require thought and finesse
- channeled ff (many variations here, eg. ff requiring energy in the same way as cloak: X to activate, while draining Y/sec)
- time warp and fungal slow affect friendly units (I don't know why most Z and P spells don't affect friendly units)
EDIT:
- Similar things can be said for "hard counters". Hard counters are not interesting because hard countering your opponent does not require finesse (though requires thought, or maybe more luck).
In general, the game should involve BOTH players trying to outplay each other, not whether one player plays well enough. Micro-limiting spells are making the game a one-player game. Wait your telling me storm doesn't effect protoss units? if this is true that is fucking stupid. Tanks give splash.. to friendlies. Storms do affect friendly units, but time warp doesn't, fungal doesn't. I can understand blings not doing friendly damage, but there's no reason for, for example, time warp and fungal to not affect friendly units.
Muta ling bling would be absolutely useless against terran you would have to send banes in first tanks would one shot em and then You lost all your aoe to deal with bio and you just lose . Fungal affecting your units would be the worst on your own units making it impossible to move while damaging actually decreasing the amount of time your units last ., protoss units have shield so they can storm and not just get shredded,
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On December 20 2012 10:34 rQvicious wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 10:22 ultratorr wrote:
They REALLY need to get rid of micro-limiting abilities like fungal, force field, time warp, etc. UNLESS there is a way for the opposing player to counteract them, and casting the ability requires some thought and finesse.
Ideas to counteract make micro-limiting spells:
- Slow fungal projectile to make it extremely dodgeable (since 1 fungal hit = 10 fungals hit)
- Medivac "restoration" unroots fungaled units
- Medivac with speed boost lifts units over force fields / roach burrow movement under ff (in hots this is actually better than in wol)
- Medivac with speed boost lifts units to get out of time warp (and what about Mech?)
Ideas to make micro-limiting spells require thought and finesse
- channeled ff (many variations here, eg. ff requiring energy in the same way as cloak: X to activate, while draining Y/sec)
- time warp and fungal slow affect friendly units (I don't know why most Z and P spells don't affect friendly units)
EDIT:
- Similar things can be said for "hard counters". Hard counters are not interesting because hard countering your opponent does not require finesse (though requires thought, or maybe more luck).
In general, the game should involve BOTH players trying to outplay each other, not whether one player plays well enough. Micro-limiting spells are making the game a one-player game. Wait your telling me storm doesn't effect protoss units? if this is true that is fucking stupid. Tanks give splash.. to friendlies.
Terran has the advantage of a arsenal of ranges units being hit by your own tank splash is almost negligible if your spread out and you micro like your supposed to .
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So it said 2pm pst and yet its 6pm pst and its down?
Someone needs to send Browder back to elementary school for general time telling skills.
edit:
retract that statement.
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How long, in game time, does it take fungal to go from the infestor out to range 10?
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On December 20 2012 10:45 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 06:47 kaNt- wrote:
Somebody said David Kim was smart... YEAH SMART MY ASS
SC2 community have been complaining about infestors balance for over a year (of couse except al zergies). But now they rebuffed them in HotS? Reverse changes? Circle changes? wtf is going on, someone tell me please Oh be quiet , zerg have been complaining about the infestor too, we get it in the mirror matchup tons , it takes away from muta and other play because of how good it is . Not all Zergs want the unit buffed of not changed , get god bias outta here
people started complaining about the infestor about a month after the queen got +2 range..where is this "over a year" complaining? the queen was buffed around march-april iirc
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United States7483 Posts
On December 20 2012 10:50 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 10:34 rQvicious wrote:On December 20 2012 10:22 ultratorr wrote:
They REALLY need to get rid of micro-limiting abilities like fungal, force field, time warp, etc. UNLESS there is a way for the opposing player to counteract them, and casting the ability requires some thought and finesse.
Ideas to counteract make micro-limiting spells:
- Slow fungal projectile to make it extremely dodgeable (since 1 fungal hit = 10 fungals hit)
- Medivac "restoration" unroots fungaled units
- Medivac with speed boost lifts units over force fields / roach burrow movement under ff (in hots this is actually better than in wol)
- Medivac with speed boost lifts units to get out of time warp (and what about Mech?)
Ideas to make micro-limiting spells require thought and finesse
- channeled ff (many variations here, eg. ff requiring energy in the same way as cloak: X to activate, while draining Y/sec)
- time warp and fungal slow affect friendly units (I don't know why most Z and P spells don't affect friendly units)
EDIT:
- Similar things can be said for "hard counters". Hard counters are not interesting because hard countering your opponent does not require finesse (though requires thought, or maybe more luck).
In general, the game should involve BOTH players trying to outplay each other, not whether one player plays well enough. Micro-limiting spells are making the game a one-player game. Wait your telling me storm doesn't effect protoss units? if this is true that is fucking stupid. Tanks give splash.. to friendlies. Terran has the advantage of a arsenal of ranges units being hit by your own tank splash is almost negligible if your spread out and you micro like your supposed to .
Storm does hurt your own units. It's hilarious how often a protoss goes to storm a bio army that is kiting away, and winds up getting his own zealots for 40 damage each as they charge at the bio.
It's just not as obvious because protoss units have more health so they don't instantly go into the orange after 1 tick of a storm.
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Many people have been complaining about the recent re-buffing of fungal growth, because even if its a projectile, it is hard to dodge, and once hit the first time, it doesnt matter because the zerg can chain. Heres an idea that doesnt make fungal unusable (like patch 9), keeps it strong, and allows for micro from the enemy, and the person using the infestors.
I think a really easy solution is to make the root and damage timer not reset/not stack at all. So a fungal lasts for 4 seconds. For instance, if you fungal, and wait two seconds, there are 2 seconds left of stun. If you fungal during those 2, you reset it to 4 seconds, and the unit has to wait another four, or get fungal again. This constant, micro-restricting phenomenon is known as "chain fungal."
What blizz should do is that if a unit is fungaled when already stunned by fungal, the new fungal should not stun at all or do damage. So if a unit has been rooted for 3 seconds, and the zerg fungals the same unit again before the first fungal is done, it would not be rooted for another 4 seconds. It would be released after the last second is over, and the chain fungal wouldve been a total waste, not rooting the unit for another 4 seconds, not damaging it either. This would allow the other player to escape after each fungal, instead of being rooted forever, since if the zerg cuts it too close, and there is 1ms left of fungal when a unit gets fungaled again, the fungal will only last for 1ms, instead of 1ms + the time it takes for the second fungal to go away, and it would penalize zergs for spamming fungal, because 2 fungals at the same time is a complete waste, becoming an indirect nerf to damage, root time, and anti-micro. so if a marine is fungled and is fungled again during the first fungal, the second fungal has no effect at all. The marine will sustain the full time of the first fungal, and the time added by the second fungal is ignored. It does nothing, unless it catches units that weren't previously fungled, fungaling only those.
So basically, a unit cannot be fungled when already fungled, and is not affected by fungal for a short amout of time after a fungal has worn off.
Another way to phrase it is to give fungal an "overkill effect," where having more than enough is not advantageous at all
This is good, because it...
-allows for micro/dodging because the zerg can no longer perfectly deny micro
-forces the zerg to micro more, and time fungals
-makes fungal a good spell, but does not ruin the game fun-wise or balance-wise
-makes massing infestors lose effect, because spamming fungal no longer is advantageous, and theres no point in having more because the zerg only needs (and is only allowed to use) a few fungals. It would be like having 10 tempests against 120 lings, overkilling one ling at a time.
-opens up other possibilities for the game because since getting 5+ infestors is useless, and allows the zerg to make different units with excess gas
-makes zvz more exciting
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On December 20 2012 11:14 Sc2Null wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 10:45 Shakattak wrote:On December 19 2012 06:47 kaNt- wrote:
Somebody said David Kim was smart... YEAH SMART MY ASS
SC2 community have been complaining about infestors balance for over a year (of couse except al zergies). But now they rebuffed them in HotS? Reverse changes? Circle changes? wtf is going on, someone tell me please Oh be quiet , zerg have been complaining about the infestor too, we get it in the mirror matchup tons , it takes away from muta and other play because of how good it is . Not all Zergs want the unit buffed of not changed , get god bias outta here people started complaining about the infestor about a month after the queen got +2 range..where is this "over a year" complaining? the queen was buffed around march-april iirc
Queen was buffed between may 7'th and the 14'th.
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Only reason why I hate fungal is the awesome utility of the spell. It has root effect, damage component and it detects cloaked units. So you get one finger super awesome counter to almost anything. Ow yeah its also free ! :/ They should either change it to slow down units and keep the damage part, or keep the root part and remove/decrease damage.
Anyway, back to the topic
Looking at the changes in the last few patches im now certain that blizzard actually dont know whats going on in the game. They are just doing some drastic changes back and forth trying to get lucky . At least that`s how I feel at this point :/
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On December 20 2012 11:28 eXeRebeLLioN wrote:
Only reason why I hate fungal is the awesome utility of the spell. It has root effect, damage component and it detects cloaked units. So you get one finger super awesome counter to almost anything. Ow yeah its also free ! :/ They should either change it to slow down units and keep the damage part, or keep the root part and remove/decrease damage.
Don't forget that it hits ground and air, and doesn't have friendly fire.
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I wonder if they considered making the widowmine cost like 25 minerals and more gas just so that Terrans will have a gas dump unit.
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My guess is that the range is going to get reverted, either to the original 9 or the recent 8, but the speed remains, which is the main buff to make it easier to hit things with the fungal. Also, the Widow Mine IMO is still not done; with the damage nerf I predict its recharge time will be shortened to compensate. The Medivac move to the beacon looks reasonable and will stay. Mech still needs some major love; the new Thor cannon is mediocre, and the charge-on-demand Void Rays eat anything armored alive. I'd figure their armor bonus on charge will be reduced, and I'm hoping the Viking gets that one point of starting armor it deserves as an armored unit (with no armor, though to be fair that also describes the Void Ray).
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United States7483 Posts
On December 20 2012 11:16 NonameAI wrote:
Many people have been complaining about the recent re-buffing of fungal growth, because even if its a projectile, it is hard to dodge, and once hit the first time, it doesnt matter because the zerg can chain. Heres an idea that doesnt make fungal unusable (like patch 9), keeps it strong, and allows for micro from the enemy, and the person using the infestors.
I think a really easy solution is to make the root and damage timer not reset/not stack at all. So a fungal lasts for 4 seconds. For instance, if you fungal, and wait two seconds, there are 2 seconds left of stun. If you fungal during those 2, you reset it to 4 seconds, and the unit has to wait another four, or get fungal again. This constant, micro-restricting phenomenon is known as "chain fungal."
What blizz should do is that if a unit is fungaled when already stunned by fungal, the new fungal should not stun at all or do damage. So if a unit has been rooted for 3 seconds, and the zerg fungals the same unit again before the first fungal is done, it would not be rooted for another 4 seconds. It would be released after the last second is over, and the chain fungal wouldve been a total waste, not rooting the unit for another 4 seconds, not damaging it either. This would allow the other player to escape after each fungal, instead of being rooted forever, since if the zerg cuts it too close, and there is 1ms left of fungal when a unit gets fungaled again, the fungal will only last for 1ms, instead of 1ms + the time it takes for the second fungal to go away, and it would penalize zergs for spamming fungal, because 2 fungals at the same time is a complete waste, becoming an indirect nerf to damage, root time, and anti-micro. so if a marine is fungled and is fungled again during the first fungal, the second fungal has no effect at all. The marine will sustain the full time of the first fungal, and the time added by the second fungal is ignored. It does nothing, unless it catches units that weren't previously fungled, fungaling only those.
So basically, a unit cannot be fungled when already fungled, and is not affected by fungal for a short amout of time after a fungal has worn off.
Another way to phrase it is to give fungal an "overkill effect," where having more than enough is not advantageous at all
This is good, because it...
-allows for micro/dodging because the zerg can no longer perfectly deny micro
-forces the zerg to micro more, and time fungals
-makes fungal a good spell, but does not ruin the game fun-wise or balance-wise
-makes massing infestors lose effect, because spamming fungal no longer is advantageous, and theres no point in having more because the zerg only needs (and is only allowed to use) a few fungals. It would be like having 10 tempests against 120 lings, overkilling one ling at a time.
-opens up other possibilities for the game because since getting 5+ infestors is useless, and allows the zerg to make different units with excess gas
-makes zvz more exciting
This doesn't really matter unless you go back to the slow projectile, because the current one is too fast to be dodgable. You'd just wait until it ends, the units would move half an inch, and then get hit again.
Instead of spamming fungal on everything, you'd be playing whack-a-mole. Yeah it's slightly more challenging than not having to pay attention at all, but it's not hard.
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I really do wish forcefield and fungal were removed and then P/Z get balanced accordingly. I hate how depend FFs are, and when a P does a immortal sentry all in you have to expect them to screw up. I also hate fungal how you have to split vs it which is good, but these "great fungals" happen all the time that do amazing damage.
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On December 20 2012 09:00 WeaponX.7 wrote:
I predict the next balance update will be as follows:
Beta Balance Update #11
Hello everyone,
After testing these changes internally for a whole day and a half over the course of 5 or so games we have decided that the infestor changes are not quite drastic enough. Zerg players have been having trouble winning games with only infestors, and have been forced to make other units; something we believe is very problematic. We are going to put forward the following changes and look forward to your feedback.
Zerg:
Fungal growth range increased to 15
Projectile speed is now 50
Now just to clarify siege tanks already have 13 range and its not that far. Also 50 speed is not that fast for a spell.
Terran:
Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds
Terran removed from the game
lol
Thread winner imo.
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EPT
