On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote: Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way.
Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play...
it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal...
ESPECIALLY if they do it from a farther distance which they see it coming and can dodge, I dont know why this is so hard to understand especially after mods and david kim gave replies
On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote: Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way.
Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play...
it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal...
ESPECIALLY if they do it from a farther distance which they see it coming and can dodge, I dont know why this is so hard to understand especially after mods and david kim gave replies
On December 19 2012 08:30 Zelniq wrote: It pisses me off to no end that people are so obsessed with this thing they call 'balance.' The hard truth is, most of the time you or the player you like didn't lose because the game is broken. In general, the player who played better won.
This is hard thing to accept for people, it's human nature to react this way, especially in a game that's constantly being patched.
And it's often hard / even impossible to be aware of the reasons why you lost, like when everyone like IdrA and other zergs felt when every protoss won with mass void ray/colossus..the knowledge just wasn't there of how to play vs that, or how to even play pvz. expansion timings, unit compositions, and the infestor was the key to beating this..not roach/hydra/corruptor like everyone did. And how long was this a problem? The pros couldn't figure out a solution for quite a while.
I just wish fans/players would adopt more of the attitude that BW players/fans did...just appreciating good play or who played better, and also that the game was balanced and it was up to the players and the map makers to solve any problems that arose.
I guess most of our problems would be gone if we actually did have a solid game foundation that was balanced and designed in a reasonable way. Like BW was ...
Nah, you would just be really bad at BW and whine about how it was broken too. BW was a great game, but it can work miracles.
Dude. I was 15 when BW play. I know that game alright ...
I'd go 10-0 vs you in both BW and Sc2. Platinum league is not so impressive you know .
But I think the difference is that I won't whine about it, because I accept my skill level at the game and when I lose games its my fault.
I never said my losses were anyone elses fault.
You attack me personally when I make arguments about how design choices affect the viability of TvP mech and such by suggesting that. WTF ?
You can imply that by saying the game is imbalanced and broken, which is what you are doing by saying:
"I guess most of our(aka you and other players) problems would be gone if we actually did have a solid game foundation that was balanced and designed in a reasonable way."
There are few ways to read that statement that are not: SC2 is broke and imbalanced in an unreasonable manner, which is why players(aka, me) have problems and lose games.
That is not a very fair interpretation. For all you need to care about you can consider my posts as opinions of a spectator.
Lol at mod edit, "thanks David Kim for confirming what I said". You quite clearly said that the 8 range insta-fungal was better than the new 10-range projectile fungal. David Kim confirmed nothing you said - nobody would argue that 9-range insta fungal is worse than the 10-range projectile.
I'm done with this thread, this moderation is a joke.
On December 19 2012 07:38 neoghaleon55 wrote: I wonder why can't blizzard just take the suggestion we've been making for more than a year and make fungal slow instead of root.
Honestly i really don't believe that if Fugal were instant and 9 range, with a 2.0 radius that the other races would stop complaining about Fg just for being a slow rather than a root. Feel like complaints would come with in 3 days.
Also even if it were a slow i really don't believe that would effect my play that much at all from Wol. Then again when people say they would rather it just slow down units, i'm imagining that queen ability from Bw, (ensnare?).
When people give the suggestion for things being slower, i wish they would be more descriptive. Also i have to say the slowing effect seems to overlap with the oracles new ability.
Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance.
We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well.
However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final.
That's cute, because he's done such a bang up job with the infestor so far. If the spells still does good damage vs everything and still puts an end to micro but now misses more that just makes massing them more desirable to counteract the random factor. It misunderstands the core issue, which isn't one of how to avoid infestors fungals, but how to redesign the spell to be more situational.
It's back to the case where if the fungal lands it can be chained to victory. It being hard to land that first one doesn't stop it being a terrible thing to watch.
On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote: Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way.
Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play...
it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal...
ESPECIALLY if they do it from a farther distance which they see it coming and can dodge, I dont know why this is so hard to understand especially after mods and david kim gave replies
Do you see players reacting to and dodging that? I certainly don't.
It does need to be tuned down a little more. So if 8 range + 10 speed is bad and 10 range + 15 speed is (too) good. Then there should be a reasonable compromise.
Blizzard's still messing around with the numbers, which is good, because it looks like they have found good upper and lower limits to work in. Let's hope after this whole mess that fungal is eventually balanced correctly.
On December 19 2012 08:30 Zelniq wrote: It pisses me off to no end that people are so obsessed with this thing they call 'balance.' The hard truth is, most of the time you or the player you like didn't lose because the game is broken. In general, the player who played better won.
This is hard thing to accept for people, it's human nature to react this way, especially in a game that's constantly being patched.
And it's often hard / even impossible to be aware of the reasons why you lost, like when everyone like IdrA and other zergs felt when every protoss won with mass void ray/colossus..the knowledge just wasn't there of how to play vs that, or how to even play pvz. expansion timings, unit compositions, and the infestor was the key to beating this..not roach/hydra/corruptor like everyone did. And how long was this a problem? The pros couldn't figure out a solution for quite a while.
I just wish fans/players would adopt more of the attitude that BW players/fans did...just appreciating good play or who played better, and also that the game was balanced and it was up to the players and the map makers to solve any problems that arose.
I guess most of our problems would be gone if we actually did have a solid game foundation that was balanced and designed in a reasonable way. Like BW was ...
Nah, you would just be really bad at BW and whine about how it was broken too. BW was a great game, but it can work miracles.
Dude. I was 15 when BW came out. I know that game alright ...
I'd go 10-0 vs you in both BW and Sc2. Platinum league is not so impressive you know .
apparently you are still 15 or else you wouldnt feel the need to boast with your skills in a balance thread
No, I'm twice that age ... And nowhere did I do any "boasting". It was a relative statement. I'm in master league, sure. But for most intents and purposes I'm a n00b. That doesn't give mr platinum the right to say that I suck though.
I did say you would suck at BW, but everyone sucks at BW. I did not say you sucked at SC2. Your are in the top 2% of players on your server and several magnitudes better than I am(though I would like to think I could be better if I didn't work 60+ hours a week).
So, what does Terran have to look forward to now in this expansion? The only buffs Terran ever got were just nerfed.
The only new unit Terran got (widow mine) now made complete trash.
Mech TvP no where near any good.
Raven seeker missile made worse in one patch by taking away splash, making it a shitty yamato cannon, and not listening that the main problem with the raven was accessibility not what the abilities did.
Bring back the warhound please.
edit: and i just watched a video of the new fungal projectile. They buffed fungal...LOL. It is fast enough to be nigh undodgable, and now has +1 range from the WOL fungal lol. You have got to be kidding me.
I like these changes- range 10 fungal projectile is still much worse than range 9 fungal instant cast, and the projectile speed did seem a little slow. Hopefully infestors will still be viable in small numbers, but not worth massing often with this change. I still wish they made fungal a slow instead of a root, but this seems like an improvement, because infestors were not very useful in the previous patch.
Caduceus reactor was a bit op, so I'm glad they increased the research requirements to make it a late game ability. Widow mine was probably too strong, but I don't see why it needs to hit air units. Blink seemed too strong with msc, so I agree with the blink research time reduction.
All of these changes seem like improvements to me. I don't know why everyone is complaining about the new fungal, it's still much worse than the old fungal. Additionally, the potential to micro out of the fungal before it lands it has been introduced, which is definitely a gameplay improvement.
Edit: The fungal speed in this patch seems like too much. It looks very difficult to dodge.
Edit 2: Either the range should be reduced to 9 or the speed should be reduced to 10 in my opinion, both of these changes combined make the infestor too strong.
On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote: Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way.
Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play...
it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal...
It's also conceptually stupid, how is it that a big bug is throwing a huge slab of snot with the range of an artillery piece? It does remind me of those fireflies from starship troopers, but then again I thought the infestor was supposed to be like the "brain bug". I guess right now its two units in one (this would explain how hard it is to balance).
Whoa, are you arguing lore in a balance thread? How do medivacs heal marines with a sonic screwdriver from the sky? How do SCV repair a BC, THEY CAN'T FLY? Why can marines with assault rifle shoot down space fighters? These are all questions you should ask before asking why the infestor's snot ball damages units.
Why do units do what they do, why do they look like they do, why do they have names that describe what they are? unit name: firebat , unit graphics: a space marine that has flamethrowers , unit ability: low range but has line damage that rapes low hp units.
If you just give random shit to your units then there's no point in calling this starcraft. You can call protoss "race #2" and zerg "race #3". The point of the game is that it should reflect 3 different races, but it's not just that the game should also play out like the lore (marines in bunkers holding the line vs massive zerg forces, protoss units being incredibly tough and use psionic powers, terran being a "polluting" race that takes up space with all their junk, etc..).
All these things make the game FEEL like starcraft. If you just go "oh let's just give this unit ability x because why the hell not", then you're missing the whole fucking point of having starcraft as your franchise. You should always ask yourself: what is the role of this unit in the starcraft universe? Does it make sense that medivacs can use healing beams? No it doesn't and that's why it didn't exist in brood war. If medivacs were protoss units and they somehow used psionic energy to heal units then yes that might be possible.
Also: SCV's repairing ground things or flying units does make sense. The SCV is also a space suit. If you've seen the first trailer for starcraft (maybe you weren't born yet but here it is: ), you'd notice that the SCV was also a vehicle used to salvage parts in space. The scv is a fine unit and how it works makes perfect sense (except maybe in sc2 it has a giant drill which is kinda cartoony, but i can let that one slip)
On December 19 2012 09:35 iEchoic wrote: Lol at mod edit, "thanks David Kim for confirming what I said". You quite clearly said that the 8 range insta-fungal was better than the new 10-range projectile fungal. David Kim confirmed nothing you said - nobody would argue that 9-range insta fungal is worse than the 10-range projectile.
I'm done with this thread, this moderation is a joke.
Worst part is the lack of consideration of how an army approaches this new Fungal. Sure the 8 range 10 speed Fungal made it hard to completely shut down harass, but what about army-to-army engagements? This new Fungal will be so good at stalling real pushes that we will be back at where we were at the end of WoL. A good player will learn and can with decent scouting max range Fungal most units in the game. Think of core units that aren't so fast. Imagine on Ohana, attempting a push. What you're gonna zig-zag your army? Fuck no, the Zerg will still mass Infestors and will carpet an entire area to remove any doubt of missing. Once hit your doomed. GG. This will devolve the game to the ZvX campfest again.
On December 19 2012 09:39 Rainling wrote: I like these changes- range 10 fungal projectile is still much worse than range 9 fungal instant cast, and the projectile speed did seem a little slow. Hopefully infestors will still be viable in small numbers, but not worth massing often with this change. I still wish they made fungal a slow instead of a root, but this seems like an improvement, because infestors were not very useful in the previous patch.
Caduceus reactor was a bit op, so I'm glad they increased the research requirements to make it a late game ability. Widow mine was probably too strong, but I don't see why it needs to hit air units. Blink seemed too strong with msc, so I agree with the blink research time reduction.
All of these changes seem like improvements to me. I don't know why everyone is complaining about the new fungal, it's still much worse than the old fungal. Additionally, the potential to micro out of the fungal before it lands it has been introduced, which is definitely a gameplay improvement.
It's mind boggling that after 1 week of the ONLY Terran buffs/changes in a good 2 years, after 1 week, they are immediately nerfed reverted changed.
But after almost a year of infestor non-sense, viewership going down because viewers getting tired of ZvZ finals and infestors filling up the screen...they buff the infestor after only 1 week of it being nerfed.
On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote: Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way.
Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play...
it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal...
ESPECIALLY if they do it from a farther distance which they see it coming and can dodge, I dont know why this is so hard to understand especially after mods and david kim gave replies
Do you see players reacting to and dodging that? I certainly don't.
ouch the fungal speed is faster than i thought. Chainfungal from 10 range ;/
That was a pretty terrible test. I have never seen fungle used on unstimmed marines that are walking slowly toward the infestor. But creator did confirm that when a projectile spell is cast right next to the unit that casts it, it is like the spell is instant...Also, the sky is blue.
I do agree with people it seems a little fast, but Blizzard is doing balance patches weekly. I feel pretty safe is saying they will slow it down.
When are the servers up, damn it. I want to be terrible to do really bad builds while my girlfriend is out and I have time to play.
On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote: Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way.
Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play...
it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal...
It's also conceptually stupid, how is it that a big bug is throwing a huge slab of snot with the range of an artillery piece? It does remind me of those fireflies from starship troopers, but then again I thought the infestor was supposed to be like the "brain bug". I guess right now its two units in one (this would explain how hard it is to balance).
Whoa, are you arguing lore in a balance thread? How do medivacs heal marines with a sonic screwdriver from the sky? How do SCV repair a BC, THEY CAN'T FLY? Why can marines with assault rifle shoot down space fighters? These are all questions you should ask before asking why the infestor's snot ball damages units.
Why do units do what they do, why do they look like they do, why do they have names that describe what they are? unit name: firebat , unit graphics: a space marine that has flamethrowers , unit ability: low range but has line damage that rapes low hp units.
If you just give random shit to your units then there's no point in calling this starcraft. You can call protoss "race #2" and zerg "race #3". The point of the game is that it should reflect 3 different races, but it's not just that the game should also play out like the lore (marines in bunkers holding the line vs massive zerg forces, protoss units being incredibly tough and use psionic powers, terran being a "polluting" race that takes up space with all their junk, etc..).
All these things make the game FEEL like starcraft. If you just go "oh let's just give this unit ability x because why the hell not", then you're missing the whole fucking point of having starcraft as your franchise. You should always ask yourself: what is the role of this unit in the starcraft universe? Does it make sense that medivacs can use healing beams? No it doesn't and that's why it didn't exist in brood war. If medivacs were protoss units and they somehow used psionic energy to heal units then yes that might be possible.
I actually agree with this post. I know it's not that much of a popular topic on TL, but I think the conceptual ideas get neglected a bit too easily for balance's sake. For example a hellion being "healed" by a flying medic starship. This just doesn't feel right. Same with a mine just shooting a missile instead of actually detonating. But that might be kind of offtopic, so sorry for this.
On December 19 2012 09:39 Rainling wrote: I like these changes- range 10 fungal projectile is still much worse than range 9 fungal instant cast, and the projectile speed did seem a little slow. Hopefully infestors will still be viable in small numbers, but not worth massing often with this change. I still wish they made fungal a slow instead of a root, but this seems like an improvement, because infestors were not very useful in the previous patch.
Caduceus reactor was a bit op, so I'm glad they increased the research requirements to make it a late game ability. Widow mine was probably too strong, but I don't see why it needs to hit air units. Blink seemed too strong with msc, so I agree with the blink research time reduction.
All of these changes seem like improvements to me. I don't know why everyone is complaining about the new fungal, it's still much worse than the old fungal. Additionally, the potential to micro out of the fungal before it lands it has been introduced, which is definitely a gameplay improvement.
It's mind boggling that after 1 week of the ONLY Terran buffs/changes in a good 2 years, after 1 week, they are immediately nerfed reverted changed.
But after almost a year of infestor non-sense, viewership going down because viewers getting tired of ZvZ finals and infestors filling up the screen...they buff the infestor after only 1 week of it being nerfed.
Something is very wrong here.
Dude. In the Bnet thread David Kim was talking about how "fun" the infestor buff was when testing it internally.
I think he should stop doing that and do something about TvP mech until he can have "fun" with that too.
EPT
