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On December 19 2012 09:19 Ecailles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:17 wildstyle1337 wrote:On December 19 2012 06:20 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote:
Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way. Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play... it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal... ESPECIALLY if they do it from a farther distance which they see it coming and can dodge, I dont know why this is so hard to understand especially after mods and david kim gave replies
http://en.twitch.tv/someone2knoe/b/349220437
Do you see players reacting to and dodging that? I certainly don't.
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On December 19 2012 09:16 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:10 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 08:32 one-one-one wrote:On December 19 2012 08:30 Zelniq wrote:
It pisses me off to no end that people are so obsessed with this thing they call 'balance.'
The hard truth is, most of the time you or the player you like didn't lose because the game is broken. In general, the player who played better won.
This is hard thing to accept for people, it's human nature to react this way, especially in a game that's constantly being patched.
And it's often hard / even impossible to be aware of the reasons why you lost, like when everyone like IdrA and other zergs felt when every protoss won with mass void ray/colossus..the knowledge just wasn't there of how to play vs that, or how to even play pvz. expansion timings, unit compositions, and the infestor was the key to beating this..not roach/hydra/corruptor like everyone did. And how long was this a problem? The pros couldn't figure out a solution for quite a while.
I just wish fans/players would adopt more of the attitude that BW players/fans did...just appreciating good play or who played better, and also that the game was balanced and it was up to the players and the map makers to solve any problems that arose. I guess most of our problems would be gone if we actually did have a solid game foundation that was balanced and designed in a reasonable way. Like BW was ... Nah, you would just be really bad at BW and whine about how it was broken too. BW was a great game, but it can work miracles. Dude. I was 15 when BW play. I know that game alright ... I'd go 10-0 vs you in both BW and Sc2. Platinum league is not so impressive you know .
But I think the difference is that I won't whine about it, because I accept my skill level at the game and when I lose games its my fault.
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On December 19 2012 09:19 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:17 wildstyle1337 wrote:On December 19 2012 06:20 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote:
Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way. Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play... it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal... when there is like 1-2 infestors sure, but who makes 1-2 infestors these days?
correct me if im wrong but if your implying that having multiple infestors shooting from the same spot makes it strong then that is wrong. If they were to spread out infestors and do flanks from different sides during the battle then yes that would be very strong but also take more skill as flanks generally do
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On December 19 2012 09:17 wildstyle1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 06:20 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote:
Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way. Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play... it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal...
It's also conceptually stupid, how is it that a big bug is throwing a huge slab of snot with the range of an artillery piece? It does remind me of those fireflies from starship troopers, but then again I thought the infestor was supposed to be like the "brain bug". I guess right now its two units in one (this would explain how hard it is to balance).
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I just realized that even though the intent of the changes are serious from Blizzard there is a comical side to it. I'm willing to assume, with good certainty, that as they decided upon the changes of this patch that they all knew that the Fungal change was going to be controversial. I wonder if they would bet on how many pages of outrage there would be in the first few hours? I want to know that feeling, just before DK hits the "Create Topic" button, the feeling that that click will result in a shitstorm lasting for a week, maybe more. I think DK is on a power-trip. Getting absurd highs from making patches like these. Each patch just fuels his addiction and his patience for the next high gradually diminishes until all that he strives for is that high.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On December 19 2012 09:08 Ecailles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:03 NKexquisite wrote:On December 19 2012 06:10 BeyondCtrL wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7415462759MOD EDIT: Abusing Mod Powers~ (But seriously, I'm copy/pasting this in here because of the overwhelming response to the Fungal Range 10. Understandable as people are so used to seeing Range X and comparing it with everything else that has Range X, but it's not comparable!) ___ It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal. Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away. This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think. Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course. Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink. The increase to missile speed will help alleviate this of course, but the same principle still applies. 50% more speed from that old slow speed is still far from Instant. I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable. I'd just like to add that increased speed or not, it's still a projectile that will miss a lot. There is actually no comparison to Instantaneous Fungals that you can land exactly as you intended when you hovered that green blob overlay over the maximum amount of units. Yes there is a buff vs static units that are between range 8-10 away from your infestor. It's still worse than the current WoL Instant range 8 Fungal that never misses and hits the maximum amount of units you want every time. ___ Even more hilarious than the patch is this explanation from a Mod... Are we sure this isn't Browder?? My god, what a stupid ass explanation or should we call it a "justification"? The issue with fungal is when units are retreating? Do you live in a cave? The biggest issue is that Infestors fungal from twice the range of bio units and are basically immune to even being hit unless the Zerg is completely braindead and move commands all their infestors with their lings into their opponents army. We are back to the days of Vikings insta-die vs Zerg and Brood Lord/Infestor is laughably unstopable and the best counter is "Dont let them get that far"... Blah blah, retreating units mod? Really? If the opponent is retreating its b/c they already got crushed by the hilariously stupid 30 infestor army (yeah, I know "Dont let them get to that point")... Clearly, if the opponent is retreating, it would be okay if Zerg was "challenged" into having to land some "amazing fungals".. "I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable." Says the guy who felt it necessary to quip in with his 25 cents in the OP with bold and red font... Seriously, Mod (Browder), think with your head, not your ass... Assuming, they are in two different places of course. your so incredibly dense it hurts. I dont know if you know this because its oh so incredibly hard to do but you can actually spread them out making them use many more fungals/IT making no energy on the infestors. Im probably going to also have to tell that that no energy infestors make them dead weight in a fight. oh an incredible concept not many people know is that you can actually move your marine in MULTIPLE directions and do it even quicker with stim! crazy right ? Anyhow keep posting how mods give stupid ass explanations when they're simply trying to clear some things up
I'd like to start by saying it's best not to call someone stupid then use the wrong word in doing so, it's you're not your, as in you are.
On to the point, you cannot argue that Zerg micro is equal to that of Terrans, the majority of the difficulty as a Zerg player is knowing when to drone, when to build units etc. Terran's difficulty is its micro along with its basic mechanics. The majority of Zerg micro doesn't compare to splitting bio vs banelings, splitting bio vs. storms, targetting broods, targetting banelings or anything else really.
It's obvious you have never tried Terran, personally I cannot win with Zerg and love to play Terran, so try both races before raging about how you can stim in multiple directions and that your infestors become dead weight when out of energy.
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On December 19 2012 09:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:16 one-one-one wrote:On December 19 2012 09:10 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 08:32 one-one-one wrote:On December 19 2012 08:30 Zelniq wrote:
It pisses me off to no end that people are so obsessed with this thing they call 'balance.'
The hard truth is, most of the time you or the player you like didn't lose because the game is broken. In general, the player who played better won.
This is hard thing to accept for people, it's human nature to react this way, especially in a game that's constantly being patched.
And it's often hard / even impossible to be aware of the reasons why you lost, like when everyone like IdrA and other zergs felt when every protoss won with mass void ray/colossus..the knowledge just wasn't there of how to play vs that, or how to even play pvz. expansion timings, unit compositions, and the infestor was the key to beating this..not roach/hydra/corruptor like everyone did. And how long was this a problem? The pros couldn't figure out a solution for quite a while.
I just wish fans/players would adopt more of the attitude that BW players/fans did...just appreciating good play or who played better, and also that the game was balanced and it was up to the players and the map makers to solve any problems that arose. I guess most of our problems would be gone if we actually did have a solid game foundation that was balanced and designed in a reasonable way. Like BW was ... Nah, you would just be really bad at BW and whine about how it was broken too. BW was a great game, but it can work miracles. Dude. I was 15 when BW play. I know that game alright ... I'd go 10-0 vs you in both BW and Sc2. Platinum league is not so impressive you know . But I think the difference is that I won't whine about it, because I accept my skill level at the game and when I lose games its my fault.
I never said my losses were anyone elses fault.
You attack me personally when I make arguments about how design choices affect the viability of TvP mech and such by suggesting that. WTF ?
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On December 19 2012 09:20 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:19 Ecailles wrote:On December 19 2012 09:17 wildstyle1337 wrote:On December 19 2012 06:20 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote:
Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way. Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play... it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal... ESPECIALLY if they do it from a farther distance which they see it coming and can dodge, I dont know why this is so hard to understand especially after mods and david kim gave replies http://en.twitch.tv/someone2knoe/b/349220437Do you see players reacting to and dodging that? I certainly don't.
After seeing the speed I agree it should be toned down some but in the video there is no splitting what so ever, just marines going in one direction.
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On December 19 2012 09:22 Fluid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:17 wildstyle1337 wrote:On December 19 2012 06:20 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote:
Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way. Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play... it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal... It's also conceptually stupid, how is it that a big bug is throwing a huge slab of snot with the range of an artillery piece? It does remind me of those fireflies from starship troopers, but then again I thought the infestor was supposed to be like the "brain bug". I guess right now its two units in one (this would explain how hard it is to balance).
Whoa, are you arguing lore in a balance thread? How do medivacs heal marines with a sonic screwdriver from the sky? How do SCV repair a BC, THEY CAN'T FLY? Why can marines with assault rifle shoot down space fighters? These are all questions you should ask before asking why the infestor's snot ball damages units.
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On December 19 2012 09:16 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:10 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 08:32 one-one-one wrote:On December 19 2012 08:30 Zelniq wrote:
It pisses me off to no end that people are so obsessed with this thing they call 'balance.'
The hard truth is, most of the time you or the player you like didn't lose because the game is broken. In general, the player who played better won.
This is hard thing to accept for people, it's human nature to react this way, especially in a game that's constantly being patched.
And it's often hard / even impossible to be aware of the reasons why you lost, like when everyone like IdrA and other zergs felt when every protoss won with mass void ray/colossus..the knowledge just wasn't there of how to play vs that, or how to even play pvz. expansion timings, unit compositions, and the infestor was the key to beating this..not roach/hydra/corruptor like everyone did. And how long was this a problem? The pros couldn't figure out a solution for quite a while.
I just wish fans/players would adopt more of the attitude that BW players/fans did...just appreciating good play or who played better, and also that the game was balanced and it was up to the players and the map makers to solve any problems that arose. I guess most of our problems would be gone if we actually did have a solid game foundation that was balanced and designed in a reasonable way. Like BW was ... Nah, you would just be really bad at BW and whine about how it was broken too. BW was a great game, but it can work miracles. Dude. I was 15 when BW came out. I know that game alright ... I'd go 10-0 vs you in both BW and Sc2. Platinum league is not so impressive you know .
apparently you are still 15 or else you wouldnt feel the need to boast with your skills in a balance thread
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Watching that video the projectile seems almost the same as if it was instant. I really don't mean to just blindly cry about it, but that change just seems so damn random right now and I just cannot agree with doing this at the current point in time. If it stays like this, they could've just left it instant and for example change the root to a slow or something. It doesn't really matter if it's a projectile if you can't dodge it.
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Why don't we replace HSM with a spell that's like the original widow mine?
For 125 energy and 9 range, you can put a unit for 5-10 seconds of red highlight, and it explodes at the end of that time for like 100 damage + some splash. This forces micro from the enemy and serves as a great spiritual successor to irradiate.
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Just kill the infestor already, imo the only reason they're keeping the infestor is because of muta being so boring and kind of destroying zvz without the infestor. It seems like a matchup solely based on who can make more muta and win. Keep the infestor as it is pre-patch and buff hydralisks lowering the gas cost or something and force zerg to innovate and not rely on the infestor in every single matchup, and muta in ZvZ.
Glad about the blink stalker nerf though since blink all ins with mothership core were too good and could outright kill a terran as it hits so much earlier.
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United States7166 Posts
On December 19 2012 09:16 juicyjames wrote:Show nested quote +Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance.
We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well.
However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. - David Kim
thanks, put this in OP . thanks to david kim for confirming what I was saying!
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On December 19 2012 09:28 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:16 juicyjames wrote:Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance.
We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well.
However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. - David Kim thanks, put this in OP . thanks to david kim for confirming what I was saying!
You might want to edit out your original post and just leave the David Kim quote. No matter how correct you are(and you are correct), it's kind of tacky to put your opinion in the OP.
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On December 19 2012 09:25 Ecailles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:20 Bagi wrote:On December 19 2012 09:19 Ecailles wrote:On December 19 2012 09:17 wildstyle1337 wrote:On December 19 2012 06:20 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote:
Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way. Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play... it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal... ESPECIALLY if they do it from a farther distance which they see it coming and can dodge, I dont know why this is so hard to understand especially after mods and david kim gave replies http://en.twitch.tv/someone2knoe/b/349220437Do you see players reacting to and dodging that? I certainly don't. After seeing the speed I agree it should be toned down some but in the video there is no splitting what so ever, just marines going in one direction.
Even if there was splitting it would be purely pre-emptive, and you could do pre-emptive splitting against the instant fungal too.
Combine this with the 2 extra range to compensate for a slight delay, and I see no reason why fungals wouldn't dominate zerg play just like they do in WoL.
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On December 19 2012 09:26 Ameisenmann wrote:
Watching that video the projectile seems almost the same as if it was instant. I really don't mean to just blindly cry about it, but that change just seems so damn random right now and I just cannot agree with doing this at the current point in time. If it stays like this, they could've just left it instant and for example change the root to a slow or something. It doesn't really matter if it's a projectile if you can't dodge it.
yeah, you have to really pre split everything before you even see the infestors.
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On December 19 2012 09:23 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:21 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 09:16 one-one-one wrote:On December 19 2012 09:10 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 08:32 one-one-one wrote:On December 19 2012 08:30 Zelniq wrote:
It pisses me off to no end that people are so obsessed with this thing they call 'balance.'
The hard truth is, most of the time you or the player you like didn't lose because the game is broken. In general, the player who played better won.
This is hard thing to accept for people, it's human nature to react this way, especially in a game that's constantly being patched.
And it's often hard / even impossible to be aware of the reasons why you lost, like when everyone like IdrA and other zergs felt when every protoss won with mass void ray/colossus..the knowledge just wasn't there of how to play vs that, or how to even play pvz. expansion timings, unit compositions, and the infestor was the key to beating this..not roach/hydra/corruptor like everyone did. And how long was this a problem? The pros couldn't figure out a solution for quite a while.
I just wish fans/players would adopt more of the attitude that BW players/fans did...just appreciating good play or who played better, and also that the game was balanced and it was up to the players and the map makers to solve any problems that arose. I guess most of our problems would be gone if we actually did have a solid game foundation that was balanced and designed in a reasonable way. Like BW was ... Nah, you would just be really bad at BW and whine about how it was broken too. BW was a great game, but it can work miracles. Dude. I was 15 when BW play. I know that game alright ... I'd go 10-0 vs you in both BW and Sc2. Platinum league is not so impressive you know . But I think the difference is that I won't whine about it, because I accept my skill level at the game and when I lose games its my fault. I never said my losses were anyone elses fault. You attack me personally when I make arguments about how design choices affect the viability of TvP mech and such by suggesting that. WTF ?
You can imply that by saying the game is imbalanced and broken, which is what you are doing by saying:
"I guess most of our(aka you and other players) problems would be gone if we actually did have a solid game foundation that was balanced and designed in a reasonable way."
There are few ways to read that statement that are not: SC2 is broke and imbalanced in an unreasonable manner, which is why players(aka, me) have problems and lose games.
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On December 19 2012 09:26 summerloud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:16 one-one-one wrote:On December 19 2012 09:10 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 08:32 one-one-one wrote:On December 19 2012 08:30 Zelniq wrote:
It pisses me off to no end that people are so obsessed with this thing they call 'balance.'
The hard truth is, most of the time you or the player you like didn't lose because the game is broken. In general, the player who played better won.
This is hard thing to accept for people, it's human nature to react this way, especially in a game that's constantly being patched.
And it's often hard / even impossible to be aware of the reasons why you lost, like when everyone like IdrA and other zergs felt when every protoss won with mass void ray/colossus..the knowledge just wasn't there of how to play vs that, or how to even play pvz. expansion timings, unit compositions, and the infestor was the key to beating this..not roach/hydra/corruptor like everyone did. And how long was this a problem? The pros couldn't figure out a solution for quite a while.
I just wish fans/players would adopt more of the attitude that BW players/fans did...just appreciating good play or who played better, and also that the game was balanced and it was up to the players and the map makers to solve any problems that arose. I guess most of our problems would be gone if we actually did have a solid game foundation that was balanced and designed in a reasonable way. Like BW was ... Nah, you would just be really bad at BW and whine about how it was broken too. BW was a great game, but it can work miracles. Dude. I was 15 when BW came out. I know that game alright ... I'd go 10-0 vs you in both BW and Sc2. Platinum league is not so impressive you know . apparently you are still 15 or else you wouldnt feel the need to boast with your skills in a balance thread
No, I'm twice that age ...
And nowhere did I do any "boasting". It was a relative statement. I'm in master league, sure. But for most intents and purposes I'm a n00b. That doesn't give mr platinum the right to say that I suck though.
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On December 19 2012 09:28 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:16 juicyjames wrote:Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance.
We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well.
However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. - David Kim thanks, put this in OP . thanks to david kim for confirming what I was saying!
Nobody's comparing it to the 9-range fungal, we're comparing it to the 8-range fungal in WoL (as were you). Obviously +1 range isn't worth your spell getting turned into a projectile, +2 range might be (this remains to be seen).
On December 19 2012 09:29 HollowLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:28 Zelniq wrote:On December 19 2012 09:16 juicyjames wrote:Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance.
We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well.
However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. - David Kim thanks, put this in OP . thanks to david kim for confirming what I was saying! You might want to edit out your original post and just leave the David Kim quote. No matter how correct you are(and you are correct), it's kind of tacky to put your opinion in the OP.
Agreed, this is really lame. Plastering your opinion at the start of a thread doesn't make it any more valid, especially when you don't provide or acknowledge counter-arguments.
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EPT
