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1 supply widow mines Blizzard please...at least try it and revert it if its too much. It's a beta after all.
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On December 19 2012 09:01 Laneir wrote:
Interesting to see the blink increased but im sure before game comes out that it will go back down again they cant keep nerfing toss like this
Dude. Blink singlehandedly shuts down most TvP mech openers. I am not sure that even this nerf is enough.
Protoss already has a ridiculous early game in Hots so one single buff is not gonna hurt too much.
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23 Posts
On December 19 2012 09:03 NKexquisite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 06:10 BeyondCtrL wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7415462759MOD EDIT: Abusing Mod Powers~ (But seriously, I'm copy/pasting this in here because of the overwhelming response to the Fungal Range 10. Understandable as people are so used to seeing Range X and comparing it with everything else that has Range X, but it's not comparable!) ___ It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal. Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away. This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think. Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course. Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink. The increase to missile speed will help alleviate this of course, but the same principle still applies. 50% more speed from that old slow speed is still far from Instant. I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable. I'd just like to add that increased speed or not, it's still a projectile that will miss a lot. There is actually no comparison to Instantaneous Fungals that you can land exactly as you intended when you hovered that green blob overlay over the maximum amount of units. Yes there is a buff vs static units that are between range 8-10 away from your infestor. It's still worse than the current WoL Instant range 8 Fungal that never misses and hits the maximum amount of units you want every time. ___ Even more hilarious than the patch is this explanation from a Mod... Are we sure this isn't Browder?? My god, what a stupid ass explanation or should we call it a "justification"? The issue with fungal is when units are retreating? Do you live in a cave? The biggest issue is that Infestors fungal from twice the range of bio units and are basically immune to even being hit unless the Zerg is completely braindead and move commands all their infestors with their lings into their opponents army. We are back to the days of Vikings insta-die vs Zerg and Brood Lord/Infestor is laughably unstopable and the best counter is "Dont let them get that far"... Blah blah, retreating units mod? Really? If the opponent is retreating its b/c they already got crushed by the hilariously stupid 30 infestor army (yeah, I know "Dont let them get to that point")... Clearly, if the opponent is retreating, it would be okay if Zerg was "challenged" into having to land some "amazing fungals".. "I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable." Says the guy who felt it necessary to quip in with his 25 cents in the OP with bold and red font... Seriously, Mod (Browder), think with your head, not your ass... Assuming, they are in two different places of course.
your so incredibly dense it hurts. I dont know if you know this because its oh so incredibly hard to do but you can actually spread them out making them use many more fungals/IT making no energy on the infestors. Im probably going to also have to tell that that no energy infestors make them dead weight in a fight. oh an incredible concept not many people know is that you can actually move your marine in MULTIPLE directions and do it even quicker with stim! crazy right ? Anyhow keep posting how mods give stupid ass explanations when they're simply trying to clear some things up
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Fungal change is fine. Longer range means easier to miss if you hit it from max range. It's a trade off. But raven missile is a stupid change. No splash = huge nerf to raven and Terran late game.
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On December 19 2012 08:32 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:30 Zelniq wrote:
It pisses me off to no end that people are so obsessed with this thing they call 'balance.'
The hard truth is, most of the time you or the player you like didn't lose because the game is broken. In general, the player who played better won.
This is hard thing to accept for people, it's human nature to react this way, especially in a game that's constantly being patched.
And it's often hard / even impossible to be aware of the reasons why you lost, like when everyone like IdrA and other zergs felt when every protoss won with mass void ray/colossus..the knowledge just wasn't there of how to play vs that, or how to even play pvz. expansion timings, unit compositions, and the infestor was the key to beating this..not roach/hydra/corruptor like everyone did. And how long was this a problem? The pros couldn't figure out a solution for quite a while.
I just wish fans/players would adopt more of the attitude that BW players/fans did...just appreciating good play or who played better, and also that the game was balanced and it was up to the players and the map makers to solve any problems that arose. I guess most of our problems would be gone if we actually did have a solid game foundation that was balanced and designed in a reasonable way. Like BW was ...
Nah, you would just be really bad at BW and whine about how it was broken too. BW was a great game, but it can work miracles.
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wtf, wrong direction. Huge buff of still good infestor and huge nerf of already not good enought W-mines.
I also hoped that they would do smthg about terran mech... not that time.
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On December 19 2012 09:08 Ecailles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:03 NKexquisite wrote:On December 19 2012 06:10 BeyondCtrL wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7415462759MOD EDIT: Abusing Mod Powers~ (But seriously, I'm copy/pasting this in here because of the overwhelming response to the Fungal Range 10. Understandable as people are so used to seeing Range X and comparing it with everything else that has Range X, but it's not comparable!) ___ It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal. Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away. This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think. Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course. Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink. The increase to missile speed will help alleviate this of course, but the same principle still applies. 50% more speed from that old slow speed is still far from Instant. I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable. I'd just like to add that increased speed or not, it's still a projectile that will miss a lot. There is actually no comparison to Instantaneous Fungals that you can land exactly as you intended when you hovered that green blob overlay over the maximum amount of units. Yes there is a buff vs static units that are between range 8-10 away from your infestor. It's still worse than the current WoL Instant range 8 Fungal that never misses and hits the maximum amount of units you want every time. ___ Even more hilarious than the patch is this explanation from a Mod... Are we sure this isn't Browder?? My god, what a stupid ass explanation or should we call it a "justification"? The issue with fungal is when units are retreating? Do you live in a cave? The biggest issue is that Infestors fungal from twice the range of bio units and are basically immune to even being hit unless the Zerg is completely braindead and move commands all their infestors with their lings into their opponents army. We are back to the days of Vikings insta-die vs Zerg and Brood Lord/Infestor is laughably unstopable and the best counter is "Dont let them get that far"... Blah blah, retreating units mod? Really? If the opponent is retreating its b/c they already got crushed by the hilariously stupid 30 infestor army (yeah, I know "Dont let them get to that point")... Clearly, if the opponent is retreating, it would be okay if Zerg was "challenged" into having to land some "amazing fungals".. "I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable." Says the guy who felt it necessary to quip in with his 25 cents in the OP with bold and red font... Seriously, Mod (Browder), think with your head, not your ass... Assuming, they are in two different places of course. your so incredibly dense it hurts. I dont know if you this because its oh so incredibly hard to do but you can actually spread them out making them use many more fungals/IT making no energy on the infestors. Im probably going to also have to tell that that no energy infestors make them dead weight in a fight. oh an incredible concept not many people know is that you can actually move your marine in MULTIPLE directions and do it even quicker with stim! crazy right ? Anyhow keep posting how mods give stupid ass explanations when they're simply trying to clear some things up
Yeah damn terrans never even try to micro anything! Its not like they target infestors/banelings with siege tanks, split bio and target fire brood lords, split vikings and target fire, etc. I have heard that there are zergs who have infestors on a different control group than main army. Think about that for a sec all you non zergs, that is some sick multi tasking.
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On December 19 2012 09:09 larse wrote:
Fungal change is fine. Longer range means easier to miss if you hit it from max range. It's a trade off. But raven missile is a stupid change. No splash = huge nerf to raven and Terran late game.
The speed was also increased by ~50%, so it wont be easier to miss.
I agree that the raven HSM needs splash. Or maybe give terran the valkyrie back.
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Seems really tacky to plaster your opinion on the OP, despite all of its flaws (of which there are many). It's a loaded argument that ignores the counter-arguments and ignores the facts.
The argument in the mod edit fails to acknowledge the strength of chain-fungaling from 10 range, or the fact that the numbers used are completely ridiculous. For example. fungaling stalkers running away from 10 range doesn't make the effective range 6, nor did it before this change. In order for Stalkers to move 4 units in 2/3rds of a second they'd have to move faster than speedlings on creep. In the 2/3rds of a second it takes for the fungal to travel 10 range, stalkers would have moved just under two units, which means that the argument doesn't even make sense given that it still has 8+ effective range. Zelniq's post says "the same principle applies". It doesn't.
Of course, it's the mods' choice how to use their mod powers, it just seems silly that screaming their opinion louder is one of those uses. It's compounded by the fact that their 'opinion' is actually just misleading and incorrect.
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On December 19 2012 09:09 larse wrote:
Fungal change is fine. Longer range means easier to miss if you hit it from max range. It's a trade off. But raven missile is a stupid change. No splash = huge nerf to raven and Terran late game.
Is EMP easier to miss from max range to you? Because there's very little difference between EMP and the new fungal.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
Oooh, Blink time reduced.. why so?
Widow mine change looks fair enough, medivac change also.
Fungal range 10? Woah..
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23 Posts
On December 19 2012 09:12 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 09:08 Ecailles wrote:On December 19 2012 09:03 NKexquisite wrote:On December 19 2012 06:10 BeyondCtrL wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7415462759MOD EDIT: Abusing Mod Powers~ (But seriously, I'm copy/pasting this in here because of the overwhelming response to the Fungal Range 10. Understandable as people are so used to seeing Range X and comparing it with everything else that has Range X, but it's not comparable!) ___ It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal. Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away. This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think. Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course. Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink. The increase to missile speed will help alleviate this of course, but the same principle still applies. 50% more speed from that old slow speed is still far from Instant. I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable. I'd just like to add that increased speed or not, it's still a projectile that will miss a lot. There is actually no comparison to Instantaneous Fungals that you can land exactly as you intended when you hovered that green blob overlay over the maximum amount of units. Yes there is a buff vs static units that are between range 8-10 away from your infestor. It's still worse than the current WoL Instant range 8 Fungal that never misses and hits the maximum amount of units you want every time. ___ Even more hilarious than the patch is this explanation from a Mod... Are we sure this isn't Browder?? My god, what a stupid ass explanation or should we call it a "justification"? The issue with fungal is when units are retreating? Do you live in a cave? The biggest issue is that Infestors fungal from twice the range of bio units and are basically immune to even being hit unless the Zerg is completely braindead and move commands all their infestors with their lings into their opponents army. We are back to the days of Vikings insta-die vs Zerg and Brood Lord/Infestor is laughably unstopable and the best counter is "Dont let them get that far"... Blah blah, retreating units mod? Really? If the opponent is retreating its b/c they already got crushed by the hilariously stupid 30 infestor army (yeah, I know "Dont let them get to that point")... Clearly, if the opponent is retreating, it would be okay if Zerg was "challenged" into having to land some "amazing fungals".. "I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable." Says the guy who felt it necessary to quip in with his 25 cents in the OP with bold and red font... Seriously, Mod (Browder), think with your head, not your ass... Assuming, they are in two different places of course. your so incredibly dense it hurts. I dont know if you this because its oh so incredibly hard to do but you can actually spread them out making them use many more fungals/IT making no energy on the infestors. Im probably going to also have to tell that that no energy infestors make them dead weight in a fight. oh an incredible concept not many people know is that you can actually move your marine in MULTIPLE directions and do it even quicker with stim! crazy right ? Anyhow keep posting how mods give stupid ass explanations when they're simply trying to clear some things up Yeah damn terrans never even try to micro anything! Its not like they target infestors/banelings with siege tanks, split bio and target fire brood lords, split vikings and target fire, etc. I have heard that there are zergs who have infestors on a different control group than main army. Think about that for a sec all you non zergs, that is some sick multi tasking.
yeah man i know having map control because terran are the board control race and pre splitting up your units before an engagement is too sick and underground, only top notch players like mvp and mkp can pull it off
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance.
We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well.
However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final.
-David Kim
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On December 19 2012 09:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:32 one-one-one wrote:On December 19 2012 08:30 Zelniq wrote:
It pisses me off to no end that people are so obsessed with this thing they call 'balance.'
The hard truth is, most of the time you or the player you like didn't lose because the game is broken. In general, the player who played better won.
This is hard thing to accept for people, it's human nature to react this way, especially in a game that's constantly being patched.
And it's often hard / even impossible to be aware of the reasons why you lost, like when everyone like IdrA and other zergs felt when every protoss won with mass void ray/colossus..the knowledge just wasn't there of how to play vs that, or how to even play pvz. expansion timings, unit compositions, and the infestor was the key to beating this..not roach/hydra/corruptor like everyone did. And how long was this a problem? The pros couldn't figure out a solution for quite a while.
I just wish fans/players would adopt more of the attitude that BW players/fans did...just appreciating good play or who played better, and also that the game was balanced and it was up to the players and the map makers to solve any problems that arose. I guess most of our problems would be gone if we actually did have a solid game foundation that was balanced and designed in a reasonable way. Like BW was ... Nah, you would just be really bad at BW and whine about how it was broken too. BW was a great game, but it can work miracles.
Dude. I was 15 when BW came out. I know that game alright ...
I'd go 10-0 vs you in both BW and Sc2.
Platinum league is not so impressive you know .
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I think that the orbital command should be getting a buff. As terrans are so commited to mules it would seems fair to lower the scan ability to 25 energy so that the various protoss openers and zerg all ins can be evaded by a timely scan.
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On December 19 2012 06:20 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote:
Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way. Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play...
it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal...
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23 Posts
On December 19 2012 09:17 wildstyle1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 06:20 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote:
Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way. Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play... it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal...
ESPECIALLY if they do it from a farther distance which they see it coming and can dodge, I dont know why this is so hard to understand especially after mods and david kim gave replies
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On December 19 2012 09:14 iEchoic wrote:
Seems really tacky to plaster your opinion on the OP, despite all of its flaws (of which there are many). It's a loaded argument that ignores the counter-argument and ignores the facts.
The argument in the OP fails to acknowledge the strength of chain-fungaling from 10 range, or the fact that the numbers used are ridiculous (fungaling stalkers running away from 10 range doesn't make the effective range 6, in order for Stalkers to move 4 units in 2/3rds of a second they'd have to move faster than speedlings on creep). In the 2/3rds of a second it takes for the fungal to travel 5 range, stalkers would have moved just under two units, which means that the argument doesn't even make sense given that it still has 8+ effective range.
Of course, it's the mods' choice how to use their mod powers, it just seems silly that screaming their opinion louder is one of those uses.
while i think they can at least try to have fungal at these values (and hopefully nerf it again if its OP again), i totally agree that the abuse of mod power to post an opinion in the OP is completely unacceptable
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On December 19 2012 09:17 wildstyle1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 06:20 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote:
Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much?
Serious question, by the way. Range 10 is just stupid. And a warm welcome back for mass Infestor play... it is projectile so oponent have more time to avoid fungal...
when there is like 1-2 infestors sure, but who makes 1-2 infestors these days?
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EPT
