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On December 19 2012 08:43 Belisarius wrote:
Poor Blizzard, still trying to find a way to allow WMs to hit air. I assume they'll eventually work it out, and then be able to give T a genuinely useful and supply efficient unit rather. Until then... man those things are dumb.
I'm happy with the range buff. It makes sense that a projectile would require more range to fulfill the same role. Personally, I would quite like to see some mechanism where re-fungalling a unit doesn't extend the lockdown, as well. That way, Z would need to carefully time the follow-up, and the opponent would have a chance to get their units away.
I think it would be awesome to have something like diminishing returns on fungal so chain fungals just dont wreck everything
On December 19 2012 08:45 pmp10 wrote:
Fungal buffed already - this can only mean one thing.
Now comes the fun part when Blizzard realizes that all the changes are taking game balance into rock-paper-scissors territory.
Good thing that by now it's too late to fix anything and we get to watch them squirm as nothing ends up working right.
First months of HotS are going to be so funny to watch.
How is it "too late" to fix anything? blizzard keeps updating the beta more frequently now which will speed up fixing numbers and tweaking till we have a better game. It really is hilarious to watch all the nihilistic posts about the beta even with all the changes happening constantly and people completely ignoring the mods post in this thread
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On December 19 2012 08:42 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:35 Breach_hu wrote:On December 19 2012 08:30 Zelniq wrote:
It pisses me off to no end that people are so obsessed with this thing they call 'balance.'
The hard truth is, most of the time you or the player you like didn't lose because the game is broken. In general, the player who played better won.
This is hard thing to accept for people, it's human nature to react this way, especially in a game that's constantly being patched.
And it's often hard / even impossible to be aware of the reasons why you lost, like when everyone like IdrA and other zergs felt when every protoss won with mass void ray/colossus..the knowledge just wasn't there of how to play vs that, or how to even play pvz. expansion timings, unit compositions, and the infestor was the key to beating this..not roach/hydra/corruptor like everyone did. And how long was this a problem? The pros couldn't figure out a solution for quite a while.
I just wish fans/players would adopt more of the attitude that BW players/fans did...just appreciating good play or who played better, and also that the game was balanced and it was up to the players and the map makers to solve any problems that arose. Because BW had a lot of tools to handle any kind of situations, for example Terran had Goliath to counter Protoss air play (carriers), lockdown etc. Now tell me 1 terran unit which trades evenly ( or close to evenly ) with air protoss and which abilites help vs HotS carriers and tempest. And come up with the argument that you have to kill Protoss before it gets to that point. Its just stupid. There is no solution to it, the new seeker is bad, at least give back the splash. it's beta. do you think blizzard will just let things go if races don't have proper solutions? just leave it up to them is my point and worry about what you can do in the meantime. timings to punish players for teching there sounds like a reasonable start..and if that doesnt work..improve your mechanics/timing/build until it does. and btw, did you really just say lockdown vs carriers in BW? afaik (i didnt watch bw from 2009-10 as much so maybe i'm missing something) lockdown was not a very reasonable solution to counters. it was just goliaths..meaning in actuality it was good macro and timings and scouting and all that good stuff.
Carriers were the bane of Mech in WoL (but only the ones know it who actually played mech in WoL) and they are still are, but very few P use them.
There were a lot of "whining" about BL+infestor+corruptor vs T mech/air, because there was no cost efficient way to deal with it, and with the introduction of Tempest, the air P play is just the same as the prepatch BL+infestor was.
A lots of Terran who played mech was really hoping and almost begging for a Goliath (Warhound whatever) to get into HotS, because the main thing is that there is no good AA with mech atm, for a low supply cost. Ye thors are better now with their new weapon, but the main issue is the supply allocation and the ability to have a good AA with mobilty with the mech.
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For a game that is in beta, I can't believe how seriously people are taking some of these changes. Personally I would have preferred if the just changed the range or projectile speed but infestors needed something to sort ZvZ. Medivacs with the upgrade were so strong as were widow mines. Good changes in my opinion but it's unlikely they will stay the same.
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On December 21st Blizzard will make Fungal instant again and keep the range increase.
Just as the Mayans foretold.
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Might be biased, but does anyone else feel chronoboosts need some extra utility?
Like instead of increased shield recharge rate for buildings, give it an instant extra X amount of shields (kinda like transfuse but only for buildings) or something.
Its pretty stupid that so many upgrades Toss have are so long in research time to prevent hitting any overpowered timings due to CB, which completely negates the point of CB in the first place. I understand you can't have certain researches done too fast or else it'd break the game - but the thing that bothers me is that if you want to play economic of chrono boosting probes regularly, critical researches take so long to finish it leaves you incredibly vulnerable for a window of time. Not to mention a lot of the timing attacks are naturally turned into somewhat of an all-in because you'd be behind economically too much if you don't do damage.
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On December 19 2012 08:50 Zealot Lord wrote:
Might be biased, but does anyone else feel chronoboosts need some extra utility?
Like instead of increased shield recharge rate for buildings, give it an instant extra X amount of shields (kinda like transfuse but only for buildings) or something.
Its pretty stupid that so many upgrades Toss have are so long in research time to prevent hitting any overpowered timings due to CB, which completely negates the point of CB in the first place. I understand you can't have certain researches done too fast or else it'd break the game - but the thing that bothers me is that if you want to play economic of chrono boosting probes regularly, critical researches take so long to finish and leaves you incredibly vulnerable for a period of time; not to mention a lot of the timing attacks are naturally turned into somewhat of an all-in because you'd be behind economically too much if you don't do damage.
Yes, give more tools to P to survive anything and get into lategame where they are just shredding everything easily in HotS. With MSC they have everything they need to survive the 15min mark.
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On December 19 2012 08:49 Zeuben wrote:
For a game that is in beta, I can't believe how seriously people are taking some of these changes. Personally I would have preferred if the just changed the range or projectile speed but infestors needed something to sort ZvZ. Medivacs with the upgrade were so strong as were widow mines. Good changes in my opinion but it's unlikely they will stay the same.
Beta is a big word, hots is not a new game but an expansion based on a game that has been running for more than 2 years.
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On December 19 2012 08:52 Breach_hu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:50 Zealot Lord wrote:
Might be biased, but does anyone else feel chronoboosts need some extra utility?
Like instead of increased shield recharge rate for buildings, give it an instant extra X amount of shields (kinda like transfuse but only for buildings) or something.
Its pretty stupid that so many upgrades Toss have are so long in research time to prevent hitting any overpowered timings due to CB, which completely negates the point of CB in the first place. I understand you can't have certain researches done too fast or else it'd break the game - but the thing that bothers me is that if you want to play economic of chrono boosting probes regularly, critical researches take so long to finish and leaves you incredibly vulnerable for a period of time; not to mention a lot of the timing attacks are naturally turned into somewhat of an all-in because you'd be behind economically too much if you don't do damage. Yes, give more tools to P to survive anything and get into lategame where they are just shredding everything easily in HotS. With MSC they have everything they need to survive the 15min mark.
Productive post! God forbid anything else got a nerf so we could add some more versatility to the protoss arsenal. Nope, its op!
edit: Tbh I like stuff like this. Yes, they could have removed CB and made all cooldowns and timers be 50% faster. While we're at it, lets remove queen inject and just have auto 4 larva pop out every 25 seconds. And mules should come down automatically as well!
Useless stuff who's only function is to increase skill ceiling is actually very good, and desperately needed in this game.
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On December 19 2012 08:50 Zealot Lord wrote:
Might be biased, but does anyone else feel chronoboosts need some extra utility?
Like instead of increased shield recharge rate for buildings, give it an instant extra X amount of shields (kinda like transfuse but only for buildings) or something.
Its pretty stupid that so many upgrades Toss have are so long in research time to prevent hitting any overpowered timings due to CB, which completely negates the point of CB in the first place. I understand you can't have certain researches done too fast or else it'd break the game - but the thing that bothers me is that if you want to play economic of chrono boosting probes regularly, critical researches take so long to finish it leaves you incredibly vulnerable for a window of time. Not to mention a lot of the timing attacks are naturally turned into somewhat of an all-in because you'd be behind economically too much if you don't do damage.
the point of CB is not to enable you to make unstoppable allins by researching tech super-fast but to keep you busy macro-wise because of MBS
CB is already the most interesting of the macro mechanics and your suggestions are just plain bad. if you want transfuse, play zerg
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On December 19 2012 08:50 Zealot Lord wrote:
Might be biased, but does anyone else feel chronoboosts need some extra utility?
Like instead of increased shield recharge rate for buildings, give it an instant extra X amount of shields (kinda like transfuse but only for buildings) or something.
Its pretty stupid that so many upgrades Toss have are so long in research time to prevent hitting any overpowered timings due to CB, which completely negates the point of CB in the first place. I understand you can't have certain researches done too fast or else it'd break the game - but the thing that bothers me is that if you want to play economic of chrono boosting probes regularly, critical researches take so long to finish it leaves you incredibly vulnerable for a window of time. Not to mention a lot of the timing attacks are naturally turned into somewhat of an all-in because you'd be behind economically too much if you don't do damage.
chronoboosting buildings might be interesting -- but make it a late tech research from somewhere.
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On December 19 2012 06:18 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 06:16 Limniscate wrote:On December 19 2012 06:13 Khalleb wrote:On December 19 2012 06:11 HollowLord wrote:
How about that blink nerf eh? Wasn't expecting that one. 1 base blink vs terran was a pain in the ass to deal with Yet Ryung beat Crank twice when Crank went blink + MSC... I think this to help PvP so it doesn't devolve into 1 base MsC Blink all-ins.
No, this was solely for PvT 1 base blink.
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On December 19 2012 08:47 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:36 Sailincieri wrote:On December 19 2012 08:30 Zelniq wrote:
It pisses me off to no end that people are so obsessed with this thing they call 'balance.'
The hard truth is, most of the time you or the player you like didn't lose because the game is broken. In general, the player who played better won.
This is hard thing to accept for people, it's human nature to react this way, especially in a game that's constantly being patched.
Of course there are exceptions, and things may really be 'broken' like infestor/broodlord, but those will get sorted out regardless of what you say or feel. Whether it be through patches, players, or maps.
It's often hard / even impossible to be aware of the reasons why you lost, like when everyone like IdrA and other zergs felt when every protoss won with mass void ray/colossus..the knowledge just wasn't there of how to play vs that, or how to even play pvz. expansion timings, unit compositions, and the infestor was the key to beating this..not roach/hydra/corruptor like everyone did. And how long was this a problem? The pros couldn't figure out the solution for quite a while.
I just wish fans/players would adopt more of the attitude that BW players/fans did...just appreciating good play or who played better, and also that the game was close enough to balanced and it was up to the players and the map makers to solve any problems that arose, and to not concern themselves so much with balance. F#%$ balance! SC2 should be all about micro and macro! Why they made spell that destorys micro totally? Its just very bad designe, nothing less. Becouse fungal sc2 is boring to watch and play. can't argue with that. in fact if for every whine/jab about balance was instead about bad design, we'd have a way better looking HotS beta. can you imagine? colossus, infestors, force fields, just to name 3 of the worst..all re-designed, or replaced with new units because of community uproar (plus ofc Blizzard has to agree somewhat). ah............if only.
I think the recent topic has been more about the design and not the balance. The problem now is that it's evident, even after all the design whine, and Blizzard's own stubborn stance saying that they won't change these particular designs, that these poorly designed spells are attempted at being balanced. The problem with Fungal, and why it pisses so many people off all the time and so greatly, is that it's such a powerful and integral spell that determines so dominantly the outcomes of games in every MU. So, even the slightest hint of it being even remotely as dominant, as it was (and still is in WoL), will make people question the validity of such a decision.
I've made several posts over the past months remarking on the design implications while disregarding its state of balance, i.e,: Even if it is balanced is it fun to use or watch? If no then the balance is a non-issue, it's a design issue, and thus the spell needs to be replaced or redesigned. Otherwise less people will continue to play and watch this game, despite its perfect balance, because of rather how that balance is achieved.
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On December 19 2012 08:46 admi_n wrote:
The new fungal changes seem pretty silly... like they're reapplying it as a band-aid now that they realized that zerg without infestors is trash.
I kind of agree with the new medivac change, but feel that caduceus reactor should give some other bonus, like multiple target healing.
I don't understand the blink nerf's purpose, so I won't comment there.
This is only to allow T to get 2 more marines and one more marauder to defend it,as long as P dont nedd obs or Robo and got 2-3 more stalkers in the same time
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Interesting to see the blink increased but im sure before game comes out that it will go back down again they cant keep nerfing toss like this
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United States4883 Posts
On December 19 2012 06:10 BeyondCtrL wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7415462759Show nested quote +Hey everyone,
We will be bringing the beta down at 2:00 p.m. PST this afternoon to make the balance changes listed below. Thanks again for all the great feedback you've provided while testing Heart of the Swarm. We hope to see you testing these changes and sharing your input soon!
Terran
Medivac
The Caduceus Reactor upgrade now requires a Fusion Core before research can begin.
Widow Mine
Sentinel Missiles
Primary target damage reduced from 160 to 125.
Protoss
Stalker
Blink
Research time increased from 140 to 170 seconds.
Zerg
Infestor
Fungal Growth
Range increased from 8 to 10.
Missile speed increased from 10 to 15.
EDIT: So wait this gets a mod edit by a mod that pastes his opinion, which I feel has many flaws and has had good arguments against, and this is OK? MOD EDIT: Abusing Mod Powers~ (But seriously, I'm copy/pasting this in here because of the overwhelming response to the Fungal Range 10. Understandable as people are so used to seeing Range X and comparing it with everything else that has Range X, but it's not comparable!) ___ It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal. Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away. This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think. Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course. Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink. The increase to missile speed will help alleviate this of course, but the same principle still applies. 50% more speed from that old slow speed is still far from Instant. I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable. I'd just like to add that increased speed or not, it's still a projectile that will miss a lot. There is actually no comparison to Instantaneous Fungals that you can land exactly as you intended when you hovered that green blob overlay over the maximum amount of units. Yes there is a buff vs static units that are between range 8-10 away from your infestor. It's still worse than the current WoL Instant range 8 Fungal that never misses and hits the maximum amount of units you want every time. ___
I actually was thinking this same exact thing when they first introduced the fungal projectile; I was thinking they should probably increase the range. At the former range, a lot of fungals, although they were projectiles, were still fairly close to instant. Increasing the range forces players to micro infestors better by getting into a closer position or risk completely missing the fungal; the whole chain fungal micro thing becomes suddenly much much harder to do if you're dancing infestors back and forth.
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Wow that blink thing poor Protoss players, as if Mutas weren't evil already. But I guess HotS will be Air Toss only then. Thought they would increase the splash of the widow mine but oh well siege tank syndrome.
But oh my ceiling cat, that Fungal range. Gives you an range of what 13 or something when retreating ? (Range + distance the unit moved while the spell was traveling) No reason to chase down Zerg now even if you are speedier then them. With that range (once you rooted something it is easy to hit) fungal shouldn't be chainable anymore Imo, which would make it really hard to master.
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On December 19 2012 06:10 BeyondCtrL wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7415462759MOD EDIT: Abusing Mod Powers~ (But seriously, I'm copy/pasting this in here because of the overwhelming response to the Fungal Range 10. Understandable as people are so used to seeing Range X and comparing it with everything else that has Range X, but it's not comparable!) ___ It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal. Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away. This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think. Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course. Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink. The increase to missile speed will help alleviate this of course, but the same principle still applies. 50% more speed from that old slow speed is still far from Instant. I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable. I'd just like to add that increased speed or not, it's still a projectile that will miss a lot. There is actually no comparison to Instantaneous Fungals that you can land exactly as you intended when you hovered that green blob overlay over the maximum amount of units. Yes there is a buff vs static units that are between range 8-10 away from your infestor. It's still worse than the current WoL Instant range 8 Fungal that never misses and hits the maximum amount of units you want every time. ___
Even more hilarious than the patch is this explanation from a Mod... Are we sure this isn't Browder?? My god, what a stupid ass explanation or should we call it a "justification"?
The issue with fungal is when units are retreating? Do you live in a cave? The biggest issue is that Infestors fungal from twice the range of bio units and are basically immune to even being hit unless the Zerg is completely braindead and move commands all their infestors with their lings into their opponents army.
We are back to the days of Vikings insta-die vs Zerg and Brood Lord/Infestor is laughably unstopable and the best counter is "Dont let them get that far"...
Blah blah, retreating units mod? Really? If the opponent is retreating its b/c they already got crushed by the hilariously stupid 30 infestor army (yeah, I know "Dont let them get to that point")... Clearly, if the opponent is retreating, it would be okay if Zerg was "challenged" into having to land some "amazing fungals"..
"I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable."
Says the guy who felt it necessary to quip in with his 25 cents in the OP with bold and red font...
Seriously, Mod (Browder), think with your head, not your ass... Assuming, they are in two different places of course.
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It's amazing that people still haven't learned that you can't judge balance changes until you've tested them. Smarten up.
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On December 19 2012 09:03 NKexquisite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 06:10 BeyondCtrL wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7415462759MOD EDIT: Abusing Mod Powers~ (But seriously, I'm copy/pasting this in here because of the overwhelming response to the Fungal Range 10. Understandable as people are so used to seeing Range X and comparing it with everything else that has Range X, but it's not comparable!) ___ It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal. Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away. This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think. Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course. Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink. The increase to missile speed will help alleviate this of course, but the same principle still applies. 50% more speed from that old slow speed is still far from Instant. I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable. I'd just like to add that increased speed or not, it's still a projectile that will miss a lot. There is actually no comparison to Instantaneous Fungals that you can land exactly as you intended when you hovered that green blob overlay over the maximum amount of units. Yes there is a buff vs static units that are between range 8-10 away from your infestor. It's still worse than the current WoL Instant range 8 Fungal that never misses and hits the maximum amount of units you want every time. ___ Even more hilarious than the patch is this explanation from a Mod... Are we sure this isn't Browder?? My god, what a stupid ass explanation or should we call it a "justification"? The issue with fungal is when units are retreating? Do you live in a cave? The biggest issue is that Infestors fungal from twice the range of bio units and are basically immune to even being hit unless the Zerg is completely braindead and move commands all their infestors with their lings into their opponents army. We are back to the days of Vikings insta-die vs Zerg and Brood Lord/Infestor is laughably unstopable and the best counter is "Dont let them get that far"... Blah blah, retreating units mod? Really? If the opponent is retreating its b/c they already got crushed by the hilariously stupid 30 infestor army (yeah, I know "Dont let them get to that point")... Clearly, if the opponent is retreating, it would be okay if Zerg was "challenged" into having to land some "amazing fungals".. "I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable." Says the guy who felt it necessary to quip in with his 25 cents in the OP with bold and red font... Seriously, Mod (Browder), think with your head, not your ass... Assuming, they are in two different places of course.
What are your thoughts on the fungal redesign into a missile after having played the beta or watched streams of the beta? What's that, you haven't tested it or seen it in action at all? Oh, so you're reacting emotionally without knowing what you're talking about? Okay, thanks for confirming that your comments shouldn't be taken seriously.
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On December 19 2012 09:04 Doodsmack wrote:
It's amazing that people still haven't learned that you can't judge balance changes until you've tested them. Smarten up.
Umm.. But where's the fun in actually knowing what I'm talking about before making a judgement?
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EPT
