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This thread turned pretty sour pretty fast.
Anyway, I feel that if you're aware that marines and marauders will rush out from under the cloud, you can cast cloud so that large chunks of bio will rush forward into lings and roaches, or whatever your unit composition is. AND, if you're really on the ball, you can move your army to be at the edge of the cloud, forcing the terran units to go "melee" yours. This, in combination with essentially removing tanks from play is a pretty potent spell, that will be outmaneuvered by the AI if you're not smarter than it.
I'll just throw my opinion in here about the rest of the crapstorm that is this thread.
Everyone's opinion is worth assessing, but don't disregard a player like Idra when he says something.
Vikings probibally do seem like an appropriate counter to vipers. It's hard to get an engagement where viper hydra can kill vikings before vikings can shoot down many vipers. This is simply due to the fact if you have vikings just ahead of the seige line, you can't cloud the tanks without your hydras getting nailed by siege volleys, or your vipers getting shredded by missiles.
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As a Zerg player, I have found it quite powerful against mech. I'm not disagreeing with people that Terran's should split their siege tanks, but I personally think Mech is already a build that is borderline as powerful as bio. Adding that little bit more of "Room for Error", I think Terrans won't use mech as often, since Bio will be so much more appealing (Especially due to the infestor nerf and the buff to medivacs that really helps against ling banelings).
I hope Blinding Cloud doesn't phase Mech out of ZvT, I really like it how Terran has 2 options.
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Eh I think it's fine
vs Bio you force enemies to run around wasting DPS and prevent them from having a good concave (it's good if he runs into you, he won't have big concave advantage, also baneling)
vs Tank it's good but not game breaking: Viper costs 200 gas and can use Blinding Cloud twice at max energy. You can just simply un-siege - sure it's not as good as Siege mode Tank but you don't lose it
Really, Abduct might be better if he goes Mech
Mech is not even that good in TvZ... Tank is still the same
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On December 19 2012 01:46 NarAliya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 01:26 Uni1987 wrote:On December 19 2012 00:16 NarAliya wrote:On December 18 2012 23:59 Uni1987 wrote:
NarAliya: Why in earth should we take you seriously when you disregard the opinion of a professional player, and also insult him while you are at it. Who the fuck are you? If you wanna suck off idra, there is a fan page for that - not this thread. Calling someone irrelevant isn't insulting them. As for who am I, I'm a postgrad who can't play often due to many responsibilities. Who are you? Another kid who regards people who play games all day as worthy of worship? And if you can't take me seriously simply because I don't share the same reverence of your idol idra, then I'm really not the one being stupid here. Oh, you got a degree in starcraft 2? I don't think so, thus making his opinion of higher value than yours. I coulnd't care less about you being a postgrad, nor does it apply on this discussion but nice of you to bring it up, narcissistic much? Of course I cannot take you seriously, it's like saying "Oh Lionel Messi, what a terrible shot, you should have done it that way!". I do not revere Idra, I simply respect the opinion of a professional. Are you actually an idiot or are you just pretending to be one? You asked me who I was, so I told you. That was even meant to cement the fact that I had no SC2 'qualifications' aside being a casual, in case you tried to use it against me - which you ended up doing anyway because you lack reading comprehension. Football and SC2 are 2 VERY different things rofl. Gotta love people who try to inflate the importance of SC2 by comparing it to a world wide sport that has been around for at least a century. I have my own personal opinions of idra, if you want I can have a PM conversation with you. But I'll not have 'idra said this and that' mar this thread, hence my original comments.
You are a nobody in the scene, and like you said, have no time to play because you are to damn important in your daily life. What does that say about your opinion? Again, I wasn't praising Idra as a person, but as a professional player. The difference of the scene doesn't matter, the fact remains he plays this as his job thus his opinion remains a professional one unlike yours. Great move though, trying to disregard the entire argument because my analogy was somewhat stupid. I could have used 100 others, importance doesn't apply here. By fighting this argument, you merely prove my point having a narcissistic personality. You won't get it anyway because of your insanely inflated ego.
Have at it obnoxious pety man, don't fall of that postgrad pedestal of yours.
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On December 19 2012 01:56 HumpingHydra wrote:
Vikings probibally do seem like an appropriate counter to vipers. It's hard to get an engagement where viper hydra can kill vikings before vikings can shoot down many vipers. This is simply due to the fact if you have vikings just ahead of the seige line, you can't cloud the tanks without your hydras getting nailed by siege volleys, or your vipers getting shredded by missiles.
This is exactly my point vs the channeling idea. Right now vipers are already shot down quickly by vikings, but only after they at least dispersed some clouds, then the swarm comes in, with possible surviving vipers making a second pass to cloud the remaining terran army. Now if you let them channel, they simply die horribly after 2 seconds, and the channeling is over.
I actually like the idea of giving zerg a good counter to mech if that means we can boost siege tanks a bit. However as a terran player who primarily plays (bio) mech, I just don't think we can say now the vipers would need such a huge nerf by making it channeling. Also looking at streams the conclusion I get is that terrans simply got to relearn how to position siege tanks. If we have had that, we can have a look at small changes for balance, but not such a huge nerf. (And really saying that it allows for interesting positioning is just as overdone as just saying other people should adapt, you got the same positioning without forcing them to die while channeling).
At the same time I also don't see blinding cloud as being so weak it would require the huge buff of all enemy ranged units doing effectively 0 damage, instead of them fighting at melee range and at least doing damage.
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I dont see why this is an issue. You throw a blind cloud. Every unit under it act like melee. so yes they will move out towards their target to attack if any attack move was made, like any melee unit would do.
Blind cloud does 1 thing : force movement. If he dash towards you, you will have a much nicer concave then you would have before the cloud. If he decide to retreat, you will get free kill and back at square one.
If blizzard change the way AI works under the cloud this will create 2 things
1) Weird rule that can and will be exploited.
2) Will destroy no pro level play. At low level, you can make 8 mutas and kill 10-15 workers before they react. Low level player will lose ton of army that would just sit there under the cloud with their dick in their hand because the cloud make them dumb as a tool box.
As for Idra, not a fan or a hater but is opinion should be very valuable.
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On December 19 2012 02:38 Uni1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 01:46 NarAliya wrote:On December 19 2012 01:26 Uni1987 wrote:On December 19 2012 00:16 NarAliya wrote:On December 18 2012 23:59 Uni1987 wrote:
NarAliya: Why in earth should we take you seriously when you disregard the opinion of a professional player, and also insult him while you are at it. Who the fuck are you? If you wanna suck off idra, there is a fan page for that - not this thread. Calling someone irrelevant isn't insulting them. As for who am I, I'm a postgrad who can't play often due to many responsibilities. Who are you? Another kid who regards people who play games all day as worthy of worship? And if you can't take me seriously simply because I don't share the same reverence of your idol idra, then I'm really not the one being stupid here. Oh, you got a degree in starcraft 2? I don't think so, thus making his opinion of higher value than yours. I coulnd't care less about you being a postgrad, nor does it apply on this discussion but nice of you to bring it up, narcissistic much? Of course I cannot take you seriously, it's like saying "Oh Lionel Messi, what a terrible shot, you should have done it that way!". I do not revere Idra, I simply respect the opinion of a professional. Are you actually an idiot or are you just pretending to be one? You asked me who I was, so I told you. That was even meant to cement the fact that I had no SC2 'qualifications' aside being a casual, in case you tried to use it against me - which you ended up doing anyway because you lack reading comprehension. Football and SC2 are 2 VERY different things rofl. Gotta love people who try to inflate the importance of SC2 by comparing it to a world wide sport that has been around for at least a century. I have my own personal opinions of idra, if you want I can have a PM conversation with you. But I'll not have 'idra said this and that' mar this thread, hence my original comments. You are a nobody in the scene, and like you said, have no time to play because you are to damn important in your daily life. What does that say about your opinion? Again, I wasn't praising Idra as a person, but as a professional player. The difference of the scene doesn't matter, the fact remains he plays this as his job thus his opinion remains a professional one unlike yours. Great move though, trying to disregard the entire argument because my analogy was somewhat stupid. I could have used 100 others, importance doesn't apply here. By fighting this argument, you merely prove my point having a narcissistic personality. You won't get it anyway because of your insanely inflated ego. Have at it obnoxious pety man, don't fall of that postgrad pedestal of yours.
![[image loading]](http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/2003_rolling_eyes_backwards.gif)
I'm tired of you, you clearly can't put forward a coherent response without resorting to personal attacks. Stay out of the thread please and allow us more mature posters to discuss this issue in peace.
@ Sissors
I thought I already maintained that channelling was not a nerf. Like the above poster said above you, it forces continued movement and positioning - in my case also with channeling. I'm not too sure about his comments about Hydras getting shredded before clouds are thrown down though.
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On December 19 2012 02:57 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 01:56 HumpingHydra wrote:
Vikings probibally do seem like an appropriate counter to vipers. It's hard to get an engagement where viper hydra can kill vikings before vikings can shoot down many vipers. This is simply due to the fact if you have vikings just ahead of the seige line, you can't cloud the tanks without your hydras getting nailed by siege volleys, or your vipers getting shredded by missiles. This is exactly my point vs the channeling idea. Right now vipers are already shot down quickly by vikings, but only after they at least dispersed some clouds, then the swarm comes in, with possible surviving vipers making a second pass to cloud the remaining terran army. Now if you let them channel, they simply die horribly after 2 seconds, and the channeling is over. I actually like the idea of giving zerg a good counter to mech if that means we can boost siege tanks a bit. However as a terran player who primarily plays (bio) mech, I just don't think we can say now the vipers would need such a huge nerf by making it channeling. Also looking at streams the conclusion I get is that terrans simply got to relearn how to position siege tanks. If we have had that, we can have a look at small changes for balance, but not such a huge nerf. (And really saying that it allows for interesting positioning is just as overdone as just saying other people should adapt, you got the same positioning without forcing them to die while channeling). At the same time I also don't see blinding cloud as being so weak it would require the huge buff of all enemy ranged units doing effectively 0 damage, instead of them fighting at melee range and at least doing damage.
Sorry, but I think you completly missunderstand the idea that I originally put out.
Any unit in melee range would still do the normal damage. Only the ones that are at melee range but don't have an opponent at melee range would stay in the cloud and keep on shooting, instead of running out of the Cloud by themselves, trying to get in range again.
Any unit that keeps on fighting even though it is in the cloud right now, would keep on fighting with such a change. But the ones that dont fight need to be pulled out of the cloud manually instead of running out automatically.
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one thing that is kind of important that is getting overlooked is that units will ONLY move out of the blinding cloud when they have no other commands or units. The same thing occurs in the case of siege tanks, units with no orders standing inside the siege tank radius will move back out of range.
However how often do you just have units sitting there, with no commands? 99% of the time you are doing SOMETHING with your units, either attacking, retreating, splitting, patrolling, etc.
unless players find it effective to use the stop command to let the ai retreat from the blinding cloud (most likely not, as otherwise people would do it against siege tanks)
as for mech being too hard countered by the viper, from what i have seen i think the key using vikings in conjuction with widow mines and tanks to keep the zerg out of range.
annnnnd as for NarAliya and Uni1987, please, neither of you are saying......anything......like at all, related to the topic :/
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Okay, but I am worried that if a unit is shooting at some unit at a range (and doing 0 damage), it wont switch when it gets a melee target, so it keeps doing 0 damage for eternity. If it automatically switches to the melee units I retract my comments completely 
(Then I see it as a nerf to blinding cloud tbh, units rushing to the zergs is generally not what I want to see them doing).
@Nar, as the poster I quoted said, right now it will already be hard enough to throw down blinding clouds before being killed by vikings. You want that they have to stay something like 7 seconds alive to be as useful as they are now, which is virtually impossible (under equal army conditions), so I do consider that a nerf. 7 seconds within viking range is enormously long. And why would their be positioning if the best place for those vipers will always be directly on top of the hydras? They have no reason at all to move, so the vikings have no reason at all to do anything besides frontal assault.
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On December 19 2012 03:16 Morton wrote:
one thing that is kind of important that is getting overlooked is that units will ONLY move out of the blinding cloud when they have no other commands or units. The same thing occurs in the case of siege tanks, units with no orders standing inside the siege tank radius will move back out of range.
However how often do you just have units sitting there, with no commands? 99% of the time you are doing SOMETHING with your units, either attacking, retreating, splitting, patrolling, etc.
unless players find it effective to use the stop command to let the ai retreat from the blinding cloud (most likely not, as otherwise people would do it against siege tanks)
as for mech being too hard countered by the viper, from what i have seen i think the key using vikings in conjuction with widow mines and tanks to keep the zerg out of range.
annnnnd as for NarAliya and Uni1987, please, neither of you are saying......anything......like at all, related to the topic :/
I am with this guy, this is a non-issue. The fact that only idle units move out of the cloud automatically makes me super not care what they do. When was the last time we worried about idle units and if they move out of AOEs?
The mech stuff might figure it out. Zoning out those vipers will be key, but the nerf will have to be based on how many vipers people end up getting in a game.
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On December 19 2012 03:16 Sissors wrote:Okay, but I am worried that if a unit is shooting at some unit at a range (and doing 0 damage), it wont switch when it gets a melee target, so it keeps doing 0 damage for eternity. If it automatically switches to the melee units I retract my comments completely
Damnit, you're right, targetswitching would be a problem with this workaround... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg. Stupid, smart units...
I guess you would have to manipulate the AI directly under Blinding Cloud then, to achieve such a behavior...
On December 19 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 03:16 Morton wrote:
one thing that is kind of important that is getting overlooked is that units will ONLY move out of the blinding cloud when they have no other commands or units. The same thing occurs in the case of siege tanks, units with no orders standing inside the siege tank radius will move back out of range.
However how often do you just have units sitting there, with no commands? 99% of the time you are doing SOMETHING with your units, either attacking, retreating, splitting, patrolling, etc.
unless players find it effective to use the stop command to let the ai retreat from the blinding cloud (most likely not, as otherwise people would do it against siege tanks)
as for mech being too hard countered by the viper, from what i have seen i think the key using vikings in conjuction with widow mines and tanks to keep the zerg out of range.
annnnnd as for NarAliya and Uni1987, please, neither of you are saying......anything......like at all, related to the topic :/ I am with this guy, this is a non-issue. The fact that only idle units move out of the cloud automatically makes me super not care what they do. When was the last time we worried about idle units and if they move out of AOEs?
Any unit on attack command moves out? Basically any unit that is not on hold position and in aggro range of something moves out!
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Blinding cloud is fundamentally broken because of this behavior.
Its true that "its working as intended" in that the AI recognizes melee range, so it runs to the unit to try to get into range. But because the size of the spell, literally a couple of steps and the unit is out of the cloud. So in effect you spend 100 energy to cast a spell that is only effective for about a second against virtually all units. The only unit it is effective against is the siege tank because it cannot move.
Its a nifty idea to use infestors to chain fungals with cloud but you spend a ridiculous amount of supply and gas on a extremely paper-thin army composition ... laughable strat at best.
For this reason I have stopped going viper builds. Abduct is a retarded spell so I never use it on principle, and as above, cloud is pretty much useless.
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On December 19 2012 03:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 03:16 Sissors wrote:Okay, but I am worried that if a unit is shooting at some unit at a range (and doing 0 damage), it wont switch when it gets a melee target, so it keeps doing 0 damage for eternity. If it automatically switches to the melee units I retract my comments completely Damnit, you're right, targetswitching would be a problem with this workaround... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg. Stupid, smart units... I guess you would have to manipulate the AI directly under Blinding Cloud then, to achieve such a behavior... Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 03:16 Morton wrote:
one thing that is kind of important that is getting overlooked is that units will ONLY move out of the blinding cloud when they have no other commands or units. The same thing occurs in the case of siege tanks, units with no orders standing inside the siege tank radius will move back out of range.
However how often do you just have units sitting there, with no commands? 99% of the time you are doing SOMETHING with your units, either attacking, retreating, splitting, patrolling, etc.
unless players find it effective to use the stop command to let the ai retreat from the blinding cloud (most likely not, as otherwise people would do it against siege tanks)
as for mech being too hard countered by the viper, from what i have seen i think the key using vikings in conjuction with widow mines and tanks to keep the zerg out of range.
annnnnd as for NarAliya and Uni1987, please, neither of you are saying......anything......like at all, related to the topic :/ I am with this guy, this is a non-issue. The fact that only idle units move out of the cloud automatically makes me super not care what they do. When was the last time we worried about idle units and if they move out of AOEs? Any unit on attack command moves out? Basically any unit that is not on hold position and in aggro range of something moves out!
That is the part that is unclear to me. Idle units will attack anything in range, but will also back away from a unit they cannot attack if they are taking damage(see zealot vs banshee). If the unit given an attack move command and they are attacking, do they move out if they are hit with blinding cloud while firing? Do they just walk through if they are attacking nothing?
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On December 19 2012 03:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 03:24 Big J wrote:On December 19 2012 03:16 Sissors wrote:Okay, but I am worried that if a unit is shooting at some unit at a range (and doing 0 damage), it wont switch when it gets a melee target, so it keeps doing 0 damage for eternity. If it automatically switches to the melee units I retract my comments completely Damnit, you're right, targetswitching would be a problem with this workaround... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg. Stupid, smart units... I guess you would have to manipulate the AI directly under Blinding Cloud then, to achieve such a behavior... On December 19 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 03:16 Morton wrote:
one thing that is kind of important that is getting overlooked is that units will ONLY move out of the blinding cloud when they have no other commands or units. The same thing occurs in the case of siege tanks, units with no orders standing inside the siege tank radius will move back out of range.
However how often do you just have units sitting there, with no commands? 99% of the time you are doing SOMETHING with your units, either attacking, retreating, splitting, patrolling, etc.
unless players find it effective to use the stop command to let the ai retreat from the blinding cloud (most likely not, as otherwise people would do it against siege tanks)
as for mech being too hard countered by the viper, from what i have seen i think the key using vikings in conjuction with widow mines and tanks to keep the zerg out of range.
annnnnd as for NarAliya and Uni1987, please, neither of you are saying......anything......like at all, related to the topic :/ I am with this guy, this is a non-issue. The fact that only idle units move out of the cloud automatically makes me super not care what they do. When was the last time we worried about idle units and if they move out of AOEs? Any unit on attack command moves out? Basically any unit that is not on hold position and in aggro range of something moves out! That is the part that is unclear to me. Idle units will attack anything in range, but will also back away from a unit they cannot attack if they are taking damage(see zealot vs banshee). If the unit given an attack move command and they are attacking, do they move out if they are hit with blinding cloud while firing? Do they just walk through if they are attacking nothing?
Generally for attack move: If a unit is not in range to attack, but in aggro range it will try to get in range to attack.
So a Roach that is in melee range of a Zergling and gets hit by a Cloud won't change behaviour.
A Roach that is 5range away from a zergling and gets hit by a Cloud, will run towards the zergling until it is either in melee range under the cloud, or within 4range outside of the cloud.
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On December 19 2012 03:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 03:24 Big J wrote:On December 19 2012 03:16 Sissors wrote:Okay, but I am worried that if a unit is shooting at some unit at a range (and doing 0 damage), it wont switch when it gets a melee target, so it keeps doing 0 damage for eternity. If it automatically switches to the melee units I retract my comments completely Damnit, you're right, targetswitching would be a problem with this workaround... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg. Stupid, smart units... I guess you would have to manipulate the AI directly under Blinding Cloud then, to achieve such a behavior... On December 19 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 03:16 Morton wrote:
one thing that is kind of important that is getting overlooked is that units will ONLY move out of the blinding cloud when they have no other commands or units. The same thing occurs in the case of siege tanks, units with no orders standing inside the siege tank radius will move back out of range.
However how often do you just have units sitting there, with no commands? 99% of the time you are doing SOMETHING with your units, either attacking, retreating, splitting, patrolling, etc.
unless players find it effective to use the stop command to let the ai retreat from the blinding cloud (most likely not, as otherwise people would do it against siege tanks)
as for mech being too hard countered by the viper, from what i have seen i think the key using vikings in conjuction with widow mines and tanks to keep the zerg out of range.
annnnnd as for NarAliya and Uni1987, please, neither of you are saying......anything......like at all, related to the topic :/ I am with this guy, this is a non-issue. The fact that only idle units move out of the cloud automatically makes me super not care what they do. When was the last time we worried about idle units and if they move out of AOEs? Any unit on attack command moves out? Basically any unit that is not on hold position and in aggro range of something moves out! That is the part that is unclear to me. Idle units will attack anything in range, but will also back away from a unit they cannot attack if they are taking damage(see zealot vs banshee). If the unit given an attack move command and they are attacking, do they move out if they are hit with blinding cloud while firing? Do they just walk through if they are attacking nothing?
to make it easy, just think that the unit will act like a zergling for the couple of seconds it is under the cloud.
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On December 19 2012 03:38 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 03:30 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 03:24 Big J wrote:On December 19 2012 03:16 Sissors wrote:Okay, but I am worried that if a unit is shooting at some unit at a range (and doing 0 damage), it wont switch when it gets a melee target, so it keeps doing 0 damage for eternity. If it automatically switches to the melee units I retract my comments completely Damnit, you're right, targetswitching would be a problem with this workaround... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg. Stupid, smart units... I guess you would have to manipulate the AI directly under Blinding Cloud then, to achieve such a behavior... On December 19 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 03:16 Morton wrote:
one thing that is kind of important that is getting overlooked is that units will ONLY move out of the blinding cloud when they have no other commands or units. The same thing occurs in the case of siege tanks, units with no orders standing inside the siege tank radius will move back out of range.
However how often do you just have units sitting there, with no commands? 99% of the time you are doing SOMETHING with your units, either attacking, retreating, splitting, patrolling, etc.
unless players find it effective to use the stop command to let the ai retreat from the blinding cloud (most likely not, as otherwise people would do it against siege tanks)
as for mech being too hard countered by the viper, from what i have seen i think the key using vikings in conjuction with widow mines and tanks to keep the zerg out of range.
annnnnd as for NarAliya and Uni1987, please, neither of you are saying......anything......like at all, related to the topic :/ I am with this guy, this is a non-issue. The fact that only idle units move out of the cloud automatically makes me super not care what they do. When was the last time we worried about idle units and if they move out of AOEs? Any unit on attack command moves out? Basically any unit that is not on hold position and in aggro range of something moves out! That is the part that is unclear to me. Idle units will attack anything in range, but will also back away from a unit they cannot attack if they are taking damage(see zealot vs banshee). If the unit given an attack move command and they are attacking, do they move out if they are hit with blinding cloud while firing? Do they just walk through if they are attacking nothing? Generally for attack move: If a unit is not in range to attack, but in aggro range it will try to get in range to attack. So a Roach that is in melee range of a Zergling and gets hit by a Cloud won't change behaviour. A Roach that is 5range away from a zergling and gets hit by a Cloud, will run towards the zergling until it is either in melee range under the cloud, or within 4range outside of the cloud.
So what is the problem? Lets say I am the controler of the roach. I told him to move until he can attack. He moves, starts attacking a unit and then gets hit by blinding cloud. Now he can't attack because he range is melee, and like a good roach, he moves forward to try to get into melee range.
The ability does not make units retarted or root them, it just makes them act like melee units. I have seen it used on bio and it seems really amazing when used with banelings/zerglings. This is a non-issue for me.
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On December 19 2012 03:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 03:38 Big J wrote:On December 19 2012 03:30 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 03:24 Big J wrote:On December 19 2012 03:16 Sissors wrote:Okay, but I am worried that if a unit is shooting at some unit at a range (and doing 0 damage), it wont switch when it gets a melee target, so it keeps doing 0 damage for eternity. If it automatically switches to the melee units I retract my comments completely Damnit, you're right, targetswitching would be a problem with this workaround... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg. Stupid, smart units... I guess you would have to manipulate the AI directly under Blinding Cloud then, to achieve such a behavior... On December 19 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 03:16 Morton wrote:
one thing that is kind of important that is getting overlooked is that units will ONLY move out of the blinding cloud when they have no other commands or units. The same thing occurs in the case of siege tanks, units with no orders standing inside the siege tank radius will move back out of range.
However how often do you just have units sitting there, with no commands? 99% of the time you are doing SOMETHING with your units, either attacking, retreating, splitting, patrolling, etc.
unless players find it effective to use the stop command to let the ai retreat from the blinding cloud (most likely not, as otherwise people would do it against siege tanks)
as for mech being too hard countered by the viper, from what i have seen i think the key using vikings in conjuction with widow mines and tanks to keep the zerg out of range.
annnnnd as for NarAliya and Uni1987, please, neither of you are saying......anything......like at all, related to the topic :/ I am with this guy, this is a non-issue. The fact that only idle units move out of the cloud automatically makes me super not care what they do. When was the last time we worried about idle units and if they move out of AOEs? Any unit on attack command moves out? Basically any unit that is not on hold position and in aggro range of something moves out! That is the part that is unclear to me. Idle units will attack anything in range, but will also back away from a unit they cannot attack if they are taking damage(see zealot vs banshee). If the unit given an attack move command and they are attacking, do they move out if they are hit with blinding cloud while firing? Do they just walk through if they are attacking nothing? Generally for attack move: If a unit is not in range to attack, but in aggro range it will try to get in range to attack. So a Roach that is in melee range of a Zergling and gets hit by a Cloud won't change behaviour. A Roach that is 5range away from a zergling and gets hit by a Cloud, will run towards the zergling until it is either in melee range under the cloud, or within 4range outside of the cloud. So what is the problem? Lets say I am the controler of the roach. I told him to move until he can attack. He moves, starts attacking a unit and then gets hit by blinding cloud. Now he can't attack because he range is melee, and like a good roach, he moves forward to try to get into melee range. The ability does not make units retarted or root them, it just makes them act like melee units. I have seen it used on bio and it seems really amazing when used with banelings/zerglings. This is a non-issue for me.
Let me add something here:
Now he can't attack because he range is melee, and like a good roach, he moves forward to try to get into melee range or until it is out of the Blinding Cloud and regains it 4range attack. Which takes a 3speed roach that is standing in the middle of a 2radius Cloud probably way less than 0.5seconds. So the effect of the Cloud on the roach is a statistical loss of less than 4damage and a small repositioning.
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On December 19 2012 03:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 03:44 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 03:38 Big J wrote:On December 19 2012 03:30 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 03:24 Big J wrote:On December 19 2012 03:16 Sissors wrote:Okay, but I am worried that if a unit is shooting at some unit at a range (and doing 0 damage), it wont switch when it gets a melee target, so it keeps doing 0 damage for eternity. If it automatically switches to the melee units I retract my comments completely Damnit, you're right, targetswitching would be a problem with this workaround... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg. Stupid, smart units... I guess you would have to manipulate the AI directly under Blinding Cloud then, to achieve such a behavior... On December 19 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 03:16 Morton wrote:
one thing that is kind of important that is getting overlooked is that units will ONLY move out of the blinding cloud when they have no other commands or units. The same thing occurs in the case of siege tanks, units with no orders standing inside the siege tank radius will move back out of range.
However how often do you just have units sitting there, with no commands? 99% of the time you are doing SOMETHING with your units, either attacking, retreating, splitting, patrolling, etc.
unless players find it effective to use the stop command to let the ai retreat from the blinding cloud (most likely not, as otherwise people would do it against siege tanks)
as for mech being too hard countered by the viper, from what i have seen i think the key using vikings in conjuction with widow mines and tanks to keep the zerg out of range.
annnnnd as for NarAliya and Uni1987, please, neither of you are saying......anything......like at all, related to the topic :/ I am with this guy, this is a non-issue. The fact that only idle units move out of the cloud automatically makes me super not care what they do. When was the last time we worried about idle units and if they move out of AOEs? Any unit on attack command moves out? Basically any unit that is not on hold position and in aggro range of something moves out! That is the part that is unclear to me. Idle units will attack anything in range, but will also back away from a unit they cannot attack if they are taking damage(see zealot vs banshee). If the unit given an attack move command and they are attacking, do they move out if they are hit with blinding cloud while firing? Do they just walk through if they are attacking nothing? Generally for attack move: If a unit is not in range to attack, but in aggro range it will try to get in range to attack. So a Roach that is in melee range of a Zergling and gets hit by a Cloud won't change behaviour. A Roach that is 5range away from a zergling and gets hit by a Cloud, will run towards the zergling until it is either in melee range under the cloud, or within 4range outside of the cloud. So what is the problem? Lets say I am the controler of the roach. I told him to move until he can attack. He moves, starts attacking a unit and then gets hit by blinding cloud. Now he can't attack because he range is melee, and like a good roach, he moves forward to try to get into melee range. The ability does not make units retarted or root them, it just makes them act like melee units. I have seen it used on bio and it seems really amazing when used with banelings/zerglings. This is a non-issue for me. Let me add something here: Now he can't attack because he range is melee, and like a good roach, he moves forward to try to get into melee range or until it is out of the Blinding Cloud and regains it 4range attack. Which takes a 3speed roach that is standing in the middle of a 2radius Cloud probably way less than 0.5seconds. So the effect of the Cloud on the roach is a statistical loss of less than 4damage and a small repositioning.
Yeah, that is true, but units that are attacking don’t move, even if another unit is trying to get past them. This means the first line of roaches is going to start attack, blocking the path of other roaches under the cloud from getting out from under it. It is going to be like having zealots trapped behind your firing stalkers, only with roachs. If used in any sort of choke, or with zerglings, the ability will be awesome. Used in a open field, it will be ok.
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thats retarded terran is the micro race for a reason becuase it contains the most micro it would be very silly and would upset probably all of the progamers if micro was done for you
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EPT
