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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
i heard him saying it live on stream. what he said was sth. like : "mech MIGHT not be viable with the viper being in the pool. but then again people playing the beta are bad and no one builds vikings or ghosts, so mech might still be viable". so once T start figuring out to build 5 ghosts once hive started mech should still be viable. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:41 NarAliya wrote: Doesn't the Binding Cloud dissipate after the Vipers are killed though? And less talk about idra please, he's irrelevant and his opinion really shouldn't taken as a stone tablet. No, it stays for whole 7 seconds (I think it's 7).. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:50 Everlong wrote: No, it stays for whole 7 seconds (I think it's 7).. Ok I think that will be a problem should Binding Cloud be tweaked to counter the interference of the A.I. on Bio. Since the Viper doesn't attack anyway, shouldn't it really be a channeling spell? A spell that cuts enemy DPS to 0 when under the cloud has resounding consequences on a SC2 battle no matter how long it lasts. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:43 Decendos wrote: i heard him saying it live on stream. what he said was sth. like : "mech MIGHT not be viable with the viper being in the pool. but then again people playing the beta are bad and no one builds vikings or ghosts, so mech might still be viable". so once T start figuring out to build 5 ghosts once hive started mech should still be viable. Currently I don't consider ghosts to be very relevant against vipers. If he also got a shitload of infestors, okay. But until that happens I rather use vikings, they actually kill the Vipers quite fast. Ok I think that will be a problem should Binding Cloud be tweaked to counter the interference of the A.I. on Bio. Since the Viper doesn't attack anyway, shouldn't it really be a channeling spell? A spell that cuts enemy DPS to 0 when under the cloud has resounding consequences on a SC2 battle no matter how long it lasts. Just deleting them from the game is a preferable solution to making them pointless. That said I really don't see the issue with vipers atm. Maybe they need tweaking, I just don't know yet. However forcing them to channel is stupid. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:54 Sissors wrote: Currently I don't consider ghosts to be very relevant against vipers. If he also got a shitload of infestors, okay. But until that happens I rather use vikings, they actually kill the Vipers quite fast. I tried Ghosts against Vipers and it's really hard to snipe them in time and even harder to EMP them.. I find it really difficult to aim with EMP compared to Storm/Fungal, etc.. Anyone having similar problem? Anyways, Vipers still cast their Clouds any my army still dissapears, even if it is spread. I'm thinking like Widow Mines/Turrets between Tanks are going to help, but man, that is so much to do and singe unit forces all this.. :-) | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
Idra is the #1 ranked player in the beta, so his feedback is really valuable. He doesn't play Terran and has a history of advocating Zerg buffs, so you can't call bias on this. While he's not omnipotent these kind of statements from the highest ranked player shouldn't be overlooked especially when it doesn't concern his own race. We're in beta, and our primary purpose is feedback. On December 18 2012 22:11 Everlong wrote: Nononooo, if Idra, our Idra said that Terran can't do something, you know that really something is wrong lol.. :D Also this. Normally you'd imagine it's one of those "if hell froze over" things... On December 18 2012 22:05 Wildmoon wrote: It's still effective agaisnt bio anyway because AI automatically moves forward to reach the range which is not what terran want to do. Who wanna hug Ultra? I'm a bit confused from the source in OP. If a group of infantry is standing still and not en route will they automatically run when a cloud is placed? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
So to outline the idea better (really poorly written), I think that the effect should be changed from "reduces all ranges to melee" to "reduces all damage done to 0, if the target was not in melee range" - so basically units try to shoot, but miss because they are blind  Bio is just one example. Roaches, Hydras and Stalkers are similiar examples, as they will also very quickly dodge the cloud. Though I agree, that running towards an opponent is often still something good, it is in a lot of cases not a significant advantage as the distance isn't that big on average. I don't think that it is a useless tool against such units. I just think that it is not working out like intended. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:54 Sissors wrote: Just deleting them from the game is a preferable solution to making them pointless. That said I really don't see the issue with vipers atm. Maybe they need tweaking, I just don't know yet. However forcing them to channel is stupid. How would 'forcing' them to channel make them obsolete? This is about increasing the skill ceiling for SC2 rather than happily spamming spells without thinking - at this current stage Binding Cloud is one such spell. Noone likes any strategy or spell that requires a higher amount of skill to defend against than it does to execute it. If Vipers were Channelling:
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:07 Big J wrote: Ok, so out of a very reliant source I know that the OP of the battle.net thread was kind of tired when writing said thread. Haha, I see.. :D | ||
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ETisME
12481 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:10 DemigodcelpH wrote: He's human just like anyone else, however when professional Zerg players are saying you can't mech vs Zerg then you likely can't mech vs Zerg. This is a beta. It's good that we're getting feedback like this from higher sources. he also said stephano would get figured out and start losing but we all saw him rising instead as well as one of the fewer zergs to go for infestors style while the old school (including most koreans and idra) stayed on muta ling baneling | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:07 NarAliya wrote: How would 'forcing' them to channel make them obsolete? This is about increasing the skill ceiling for SC2 rather than happily spamming spells without thinking - at this current stage Binding Cloud is one such spell. Noone likes any strategy or spell that requires a higher amount of skill to defend against than it does to execute it. If Vipers were Channelling: If vipers were channeling you had a stupid all-or-nothing spell where generally they don't do anything, since my vikings just pick them immediatly off. Without enormous health boost they just die. Or for whatever reason I don't have vikings present and I got overrun since they are doing permanent blinding clouds on my army. But in 90% of the situations those vipers just die directly. That doesn't force micro from any player, since dead units dont require micro. so basically units try to shoot, but miss because they are blind So basically a gigantic boost to vipers vs pretty much every unit since they are all firing on units they cant hit instead of units they can hit. Only melee units will still do anything. But now some people want viper boosted, while others want to have it nerfed. Seems reasonably balanced to me. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:18 Sissors wrote: If vipers were channeling you had a stupid all-or-nothing spell where generally they don't do anything, since my vikings just pick them immediatly off. Without enormous health boost they just die. I don't think you understand the concept of evolving strategy. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
If blinding cloud beats tanks too hard the simple solution is just a small area nerf or even better, a small range nerf on casting it so you can actually prevent it by having your vikings/thors or even widow mines up front a bit. Alternatively maybe a small energy increase so vipers can't cast two blinding clouds would be good. Consume could get a small buff to compensate for higher energy needs. I feel this will eventually be overcome by more careful tank and viking positioning though, which would be great as you would finally see some of that important tank positioning BW mech is known for. Units automatically moving out of the cloud is a bit odd but does make the fungal + blinding cloud play very cool, which is more a ZvP option but still. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:22 NarAliya wrote: I don't think you understand the concept of evolving strategy. So explain me the concept of 'evolving strategy'. Maybe at the same time give marines 10 range so toss and zerg can do some evolving around that. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:18 Sissors wrote: So basically a gigantic boost to vipers vs pretty much every unit since they are all firing on units they cant hit instead of units they can hit. Only melee units will still do anything. No. Medivacs got a gigantic boost. This would be a buff to the viper. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:23 Sissors wrote: So explain me the concept of 'evolving strategy'. Maybe at the same time give marines 10 range so toss and zerg can do some evolving around that. I presented logical arguments as to why a Channelling Binding Cloud would introduce a levelling playing field without shifting favour in any direction. You instead ignored it and started screaming 'OH BUT I HAVE VIKINGS PEW PEW!!1!q11'.. wtf do you think the Zerg player is doing whilst you are trying to kill his Vipers? Thumb up the ass? Why do you think I presented Positional play for the Zerg to take advantage of, both in where he places his Vipers and where the core of his army is? If they die, its his fault for not shifting his AA to a better position or neutralizing the Vikings beforehand - not because Vikings auto-counter Vipers. Vipers already got a health buff, so they won't die in one shot now. As for your 10 range marines, irrelevant and a completely extreme and bad attempt to refute my earlier point. | ||
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sweetbabyjesus
Denmark168 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:23 Sissors wrote: So explain me the concept of 'evolving strategy'. Maybe at the same time give marines 10 range so toss and zerg can do some evolving around that. Haha, I had a giggle from that one. Well said.  | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
It'd make it better against bio, but not as effective against mech as splash would still hurt you. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
I presented logical arguments as to why a Channelling Binding Cloud would introduce a levelling playing field without shifting favour in any direction. You instead ignored it and started screaming 'OH BUT I HAVE VIKINGS PEW PEW!!1!q11'.. wtf do you think the Zerg player is doing whilst you are trying to kill his Vipers? Thumb up the ass? Why do you think I presented Positional play for the Zerg to take advantage of, both in where he places his Vipers and where the core of his army is? If they die, its his fault for not shifting his AA to a better position or neutralizing the Vikings beforehand - not because Vikings auto-counter Vipers. Vipers already got a health buff, so they won't die in one shot now. As for your 10 range marines, irrelevant and a completely extreme and bad attempt to refute my earlier point. Maybe you should look up the range of blinding cloud, vikings and zerg AA. Vikings simply kill them, no positional play is going to change that. Aditionally the best place to put your vipers would always be right on top of your army. That doesn't promote micro for anyone above bronze. The further away from your main army they are, the easier they are for vikings to pick off. You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist in the first place. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:35 Sissors wrote: Maybe you should look up the range of blinding cloud, vikings and zerg AA. Vikings simply kill them, no positional play is going to change that. Aditionally the best place to put your vipers would always be right on top of your army. That doesn't promote micro for anyone above bronze. The further away from your main army they are, the easier they are for vikings to pick off. You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist in the first place. -_- Binding Cloud = Range 9 Viking AA = Range 9 Hydras = Range 6 Hydra's are obviously going to be in between Vipers and the Terran army that has Binding cloud on them (otherwise what would be the point of Using binding cloud). They are close enough to shoot the Vikings before they get to the Vipers - if the Hydras are controlled well enough. If the Vikings are smart and flank instead, they can obviously just snipe the Vipers - IF the Zerg doesn't have any air or doesn't reposition AA. Already in this simple example, one can visualise continual shifts and repositioning, focus firing, stopping the channeling and moving vipers to a different position etc etc. That is my idea of evolving strategy. | ||
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